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Switching from a Nighthawk to a CNR or Golem. Yes or no?

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Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.27 21:51:00 - [1] I have a character who does level 4 missions in a nicely pimped out Nighthawk. It has a very good tank which handles almost every level 4 mission I've tried except EA5 of 5 which he had to warp out and back into a few times. With a rack of DG heavy launchers, maxed missile support skills, implants and 3 x faction BCUs it has an RoF of just under 4.4 seconds. I don't know what the DPS is but Navy Scourge missiles do just around 380/hit on hull. Which is nice. He's never flown a battleship and at the moment he's training Caldari BS5 and then will train Cruise up to 5 for t2 launchers along with any other appropriate skills he's missing for a BS (for example, he's never needed shield compensation and will take that to 5) He's wearing the following implants: ZMU2000 - 5% to cruise damage KVA2000 - 5% to shield capacity ZMA1000 - -5% explosion radius bonus ZMS1000 - -5% explosion velocity bonus ZMM1000 - -5% RoF bonus My question is simple. Because this is a pretty much maxed out Nighthawk being flown by a highly skilled pilot, is a CNR or Golem likely to outperform it?
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.27 22:34:00 - [2] Edited by: Helen on 27/12/2007 22:36:35 Merry Xmas Feek I believe that if you have high skills in the relevant areas the CNR still outpreforms the Golem but only just. I'd suggest looking at Carniflex's thread for more information. Carniflex's Comparision of the CNR v Golem Meet me behind the bushes at midnight! - Cortes
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:39:00 - [3] slash me waves at Helen. That doesn't answer the question though, how much better than a maxed Nighthawk is a CNR or a Golem going to be? It can complete GE in under an hour (to "objective completed").
Giant Haystacks Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:21:00 - [4] With top skills in both ships a cruise CNR will do about twice the dps of a NH with longer range and a better tank.
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.28 00:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Sergeant Benton slash me waves at Helen. That doesn't answer the question though, how much better than a maxed Nighthawk is a CNR or a Golem going to be? It can complete GE in under an hour (to "objective completed"). I'll be honest and say I dunno, although you get so much small stuff that a NH can take out very easily in lvl 4 missions probably makes up for the fact the NH takes awhile munching on NPC BS. I'd suggest getting an Amarr agent respeccing to fly an Abaddon and just use lasers! Meet me behind the bushes at midnight! - Cortes
Benedic The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:33:00 - [6] As long as you run predominately against guristas or serps NH is better imo. Against anything else CNR is probably a better option, as you can pick your damage type more effectively. I run a similar setup to your nighthawk and it slightly under DPSes a similar CNR setup (discounting drones the CNR does around 100 more). I would assume being 'pimped out' also means you have a permarunning tank - not quite as easy to achieve in a CNR. In the end it's more of a matter of personal choice, the pros and cons of each ship counterbalance each other pretty nicely.
Gethinlane	Posted - 2007.12.28 07:47:00 - [7] Edited by: Gethinlane on 28/12/2007 07:47:53 Edited by: Gethinlane on 28/12/2007 07:47:38 Originally by: Giant Haystacks With top skills in both ships a cruise CNR will do about twice the dps of a NH with longer range and a better tank. That is complete and utter BS! This guy hasn't got a clue about what he's talking about Some numbers for you to PROVE my point. Nighthawk with faction launchers, all skills at 5, faction ammo and 3 faction BCU DPS: 530 (660 with drones) CNR with faction launchers, all skills at 5 and faction ammo with 3 faction BCU DPS: 670 (830 with drones) That is NO WHERE NEAR twice as much. There are also other factors to consider. The Cruise missiles have an explosion radius of 225 with max skills. So u will only be doing 670DPS on BS and BC. Whilst the nighthawk has an explosiov radius of 70 with heavy missiles. So you will do max damage to cruisers as well. And both the CNR and nighthawks have roughly identical tanks if a deadspace booster is used on the CNR. So in the end, I'd say that in BS heavy missions, the CNR might be a tad faster, but in the rest it will not outperform the nighthawk.
Kookie Snr	Posted - 2007.12.28 08:48:00 - [8] intrigued by your nighthawk setup, I use the bog standard Raven setup, would you share your setup and rough price of mods please as a little bored with the raven>) thanks
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.12.28 09:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Gethinlane So in the end, I'd say that in BS heavy missions, the CNR might be a tad faster, but in the rest it will not outperform the nighthawk. It depends on actual fit (as does all things in EVE), but if you throw isk at the problem and fit your CNR to spank small suff it can and will actually outperfom Nighthawk by having painter + siganture on missiles approx 125 m (3x rigor rigs, max skills, hardwire) while still maintaining it's advantage against bigger targets. Overall however Nighthawk is quite good and reasonable platform for level 4 mission running. I would put nighthawk into same box as Golem personally. Not quite as fast as CNR in missions (if fitted to run em fast) but more 'care free' (less micromanagement to get every bit of effectivity out from it) and not that far behind in effectivity to be totally unreasonable. As far as main question goes if it's worth to upgrade to CNR (or Golem) from Nighthawk then it propably depends on your mission running style. If you do them on clock and ignore most of the loot then CNR is more reasonable, if you are doing them in more relaxsed way browsing net or wathing TV while you do them then permaboosting Golem (or passive tanked Nighthawk) are better options than gank CNR.
arff	Posted - 2007.12.28 09:51:00 - [10] How is the Nighthawk doing 530 dps? I fly one in lvl 4's with dg launchers and 3 dg bcu's but think the dps is less than that, am I missing something?

Gethinlane	Posted - 2007.12.28 10:10:00 - [11] Originally by: arff How is the Nighthawk doing 530 dps? I fly one in lvl 4's with dg launchers and 3 dg bcu's but think the dps is less than that, am I missing something? That's with faction launchers, faction ammo, 3 faction BCU, all skills at 5, and bonus implants. With all of those, u can get 530 DPS
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.28 10:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Kookie Snr intrigued by your nighthawk setup, I use the bog standard Raven setup, would you share your setup and rough price of mods please as a little bored with the raven>) 6 x Dread Guristas Heavy missile launchers with Navy ammo 1 x Small tractor beam 2 x large shield extender t2 1 x Caldari Navy invul field 1 x Invul field t2 1 x Photon hardener t2(EM) 2 x Shield power relay t2 1 x Caldari Navy BCU 2 x Dread Guristas BCU 2 x Purger rigs 5 x small t2 drones in the hold but, they don't get used much. Implants as in the first post: ZMU2000 - 5% to cruise damage KVA2000 - 5% to shield capacity ZMA1000 - -5% explosion radius bonus ZMS1000 - -5% explosion velocity bonus ZMM1000 - -5% RoF bonus As for the cost - I really have no idea now. The DG launchers were bought before the LP store came into force as were the DG BCUs. He used to swap hardeners for specific missions but since the CN Invul was obtained, the above tank has been used for all missions and gives a good range of resists: 81/86/87/89 with just over 13,000 shields. He only has Command ships trained to 4 though, I just realised that adds Command ships 5 to queue but all the missile support skills are maxed. But I fancied a change, hence the reason for looking at either a CNR or Golem, but I don't want to put him in a ship that's not going to work as well, obviously.
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.28 11:08:00 - [13] Some very interesting replies in here, thanks - It may be a case of deciding on which ship to use depending on which mission is offered...
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.28 15:29:00 - [14] Edited by: Andrue on 28/12/2007 15:33:32 Originally by: Sergeant Benton Originally by: Kookie Snr intrigued by your nighthawk setup, I use the bog standard Raven setup, would you share your setup and rough price of mods please as a little bored with the raven>) 6 x Dread Guristas Heavy missile launchers with Navy ammo 1 x Small tractor beam 2 x large shield extender t2 1 x Caldari Navy invul field 1 x Invul field t2 1 x Photon hardener t2(EM) ... Interesting. Not too different from my setup but I'm wondering why you went for another invul. instead of a Shield Recharge Amp? I've never tried EA myself (don't want to wreck my standings) but AE4 bonus room looks like it might (only just) break my tank if I let it. I use: 2xT2 LSE DG Invul <appropriate faction hardener> SRA Gives me 154DPS incoming with primary resist at 92%+, secondary at 89%. Omni tank is around 85% across the board. Damage seems okay but not as good as my alt's Sleipnir. Then again I like the NH because of its 'hands-off' mission running approach. No need to worry about shield or cap levels - just target and fire. A lot like mining in fact -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Trotski II Rasta Tropical Club	Posted - 2007.12.28 17:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Gethinlane Nighthawk with faction launchers, all skills at 5, faction ammo and 3 faction BCU DPS: 530 (660 with drones) CNR with faction launchers, all skills at 5 and faction ammo with 3 faction BCU DPS: 670 (830 with drones) That is NO WHERE NEAR twice as much. There are also other factors to consider. The Cruise missiles have an explosion radius of 225 with max skills. So u will only be doing 670DPS on BS and BC. Whilst the nighthawk has an explosiov radius of 70 with heavy missiles. So you will do max damage to cruisers as well. And both the CNR and nighthawks have roughly identical tanks if a deadspace booster is used on the CNR. So in the end, I'd say that in BS heavy missions, the CNR might be a tad faster, but in the rest it will not outperform the nighthawk. The DPS for the Nighthawk you calculate is with scourge missiles?
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.28 21:05:00 - [16] I'd imagine that's with Scourge, yes.
Gethinlane	Posted - 2007.12.29 09:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Trotski II Originally by: Gethinlane Nighthawk with faction launchers, all skills at 5, faction ammo and 3 faction BCU DPS: 530 (660 with drones) CNR with faction launchers, all skills at 5 and faction ammo with 3 faction BCU DPS: 670 (830 with drones) That is NO WHERE NEAR twice as much. There are also other factors to consider. The Cruise missiles have an explosion radius of 225 with max skills. So u will only be doing 670DPS on BS and BC. Whilst the nighthawk has an explosiov radius of 70 with heavy missiles. So you will do max damage to cruisers as well. And both the CNR and nighthawks have roughly identical tanks if a deadspace booster is used on the CNR. So in the end, I'd say that in BS heavy missions, the CNR might be a tad faster, but in the rest it will not outperform the nighthawk. The DPS for the Nighthawk you calculate is with scourge missiles? Yes with faction scourge for nighthawk, and faction ammo for CNR.
Zerode	Posted - 2007.12.29 11:41:00 - [18] My Nighthawk lvl4 setup High dps and godlike tank 700-800dps tank on uniform damage, 800-1100dps tank against Therm and Kinetic rats. Then the DPS, lots complain about the DPS of the Nighthawk and I can't realy understand why. 488 dps with T1 non kinetic ammo & 665dps with DG Kinetic ammo of gank isn't to bad, makes missioning barable. Even using nothing but T2 gear this setup can solo all lvl4 missions easy. High: 6 Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launchers 1 Dronelink Augmentation Mid: 10MN Afterburner (T2, Faction, Deadspace or Officer) 2 Invulnerability Fields (Caldari Navy, Dread Guristas or Officer) * For omni res tanking take off the AB and put on 1 officer EM hardner or Pith X-type (90% res average and 24/7 cap stable) 2 Large Shield Extenders II (On Serp and Gurista missions use 2 Invulnerability Fields and 3 Large Shield Extenders II for the best possible tank while still have good dps) Low: 3 Caldari Navy Balistic Control Systems 2 Shield Power Relay II Rigs: 2 Core Defence Field Purger II Drones: 5 Small T2 Scout Drones Some nice hardwiring and a snake set on top of this and you're set. Btw, with a good AB and snake set this BRICK is quite fast and 7xx m/s help in finishing missions alot faster.
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.29 12:49:00 - [19] I don't believe your claimed DPS figures. Your setup is effectively identical to mine regarding launchers and BCU and I know I don't get that much. Even taking into account the 5% from Command Ships 5 that I'm missing it doesn't bring it up to that level. I don't like the figures that EFT produces as they're theoretical and generally more than one gets actually in game but there's a big difference for what it says I get and what you're claiming.
TalanR Personal Vendetta	Posted - 2007.12.29 16:15:00 - [20] I'm using a pimped nighthawk and i don't have to warp out durring any mission. i alway's start by getting all the agro (this way they come to you) maby a crystal set would do you good. here's my setup 6x Caldari Navy Heavy Launchers 1x Tractor beam 1x Domination Afterburner 1x Gist X-Type large shield booster 1x Gist X-Type shield boost amp. 2x GD inv fields 3x Caldari Navy BC's 1x Damage Controle II 1x Power Diagnostic III 2x EM rigs

Zerode	Posted - 2007.12.29 17:32:00 - [21] Edited by: Zerode on 29/12/2007 17:35:16 Originally by: Sergeant Benton I don't believe your claimed DPS figures. Your setup is effectively identical to mine regarding launchers and BCU and I know I don't get that much. Even taking into account the 5% from Command Ships 5 that I'm missing it doesn't bring it up to that level. I don't like the figures that EFT produces as they're theoretical and generally more than one gets actually in game but there's a big difference for what it says I get and what you're claiming. I have command ship @ lvl5 as you said and hardwiring for 5% damage and 5% rate of fire. But I have used EFT to calculate the dps as I don't have the formula to do it my self.
Sergeant Benton Caldari United Nations Intelligence Taskforce	Posted - 2007.12.29 19:07:00 - [22] That'd make the difference - My man has a 5% shield capacity implant in the slot where the heavy missile damage implant could go. But this thread isn't supposed to be about Nighthawk settings but whether or not it's worth him switching from an NH to a CNR or a Golem!
Gethinlane	Posted - 2007.12.30 23:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Sergeant Benton I don't believe your claimed DPS figures. Your setup is effectively identical to mine regarding launchers and BCU and I know I don't get that much. Even taking into account the 5% from Command Ships 5 that I'm missing it doesn't bring it up to that level. I don't like the figures that EFT produces as they're theoretical and generally more than one gets actually in game but there's a big difference for what it says I get and what you're claiming. How can you NOT LIKE numbers put by EFT. They will be 100% correct if your talking about missiles, becuase if they hit, they allways do so for full damage. I never understood what people have against EFT. It works DPS by working out the damage done divided by the intervals between damage. If you can fire 5 launchers every 10 seconds, each missile doing 300 damage. you will be getting 150DPS. There is no arguing this. EFT doesnt get it as right with other methods of damage, since it is variable. But with missiles its calulated DPS will be 100% correct, unless you go out of range, or a missile is shot down by defenders. (But in this instance it would apply to both CNR and nighthawk, so will cancel each other out.)
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.31 00:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Gethinlane How can you NOT LIKE numbers put by EFT. They will be 100% correct if your talking about missiles, becuase if they hit, they allways do so for full damage. Wrong, missiles do not always hit for full damage. I'd be a smartass and not say why but I'm feeling generous. Missiles are effected by target size and velocity, therefore the damage is variable depending on the targets aforementioned variables. Quote: It works DPS by working out the damage done divided by the intervals between damage. Well yeah thats generally how its worked out... Top Tip - Don't eat yellow snow
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.12.31 09:26:00 - [25] On the OT..... The discussion of DPS has pretty much been covered. I personally prefer a CNR to a NH, but thats just me. What should be considered is the Golem's ability to fit 3 double range tractor beams. If you're one of those mission runners who (like me) salvage and loot everything, this is a huge bonus to your total mission completion time. You can just sit still and do the mission, and while shooting the NPC's you can tractor all wrecks to one location. You can loot around 800-1000 m3 while doing the mission because of the huge cargo bay, and then return in your salvage ship to salvage wrecks and get any remaining loot. This saves you a lot of time overall, though the slightly lower DPS will cause the actual shooting part of the mission a bit longer. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Weeka Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.12.31 10:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Helen Wrong, missiles do not always hit for full damage. I'd be a smartass and not say why but I'm feeling generous. Missile damage is not reduced by random things like glancing hits, wrecking hits or range - that's what he said. You can argue and say "oh well, but there are signature radius, and explosion radius" but that is missing the point that mathematically speaking dps in fitting tools is a measurement of overall damage of differen setups and different ships. Or to make it more clear to you.. EFT isnt telling you how much damage a volley from your nighthawk is doing to a dire pithum, when its moving with 134m/s, on a laggy afternoon and considering that some of your launchers are actually reloading right now, and 85% shields are already gone. What EFT is telling you, and with more precision using missiles, than not, if setup A will outperform setup B Hope that cleared things up. On topic .. no clue, wouldn't give up the nighthawk.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.31 11:21:00 - [27] Fitting tractors on your mission ship sounds good but I've done it and there is a bit of a gotcha - be careful of stray missiles! It's very easy to accidently fire on a wreck and it only takes one missile to destroy it. The problem isn't carelessness so much as the way that the UI selects the next target when the current one pops. It automatically selects another target (which could well be a wreck) and is ready to fire. If you were just about to restart a launcher after a reload it is very, very easy for UI lag to cause an accidental firing. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Ap0ll0n Gallente Pikfjaes	Posted - 2007.12.31 17:05:00 - [28] Why would anyone fly a nighthawk, when a Raven does more damage, and can tank every lvl 4 mission out there?
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:55:00 - [29] if ya really want a major change and a nice mission ship ya could always get a rattlesnake and keep your passive setup and still get some good dmg
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2007.12.31 18:57:00 - [30] Originally by: Ap0ll0n Why would anyone fly a nighthawk, when a Raven does more damage, and can tank every lvl 4 mission out there? because of the overwhelming amount of smaller ships which a nighthawk can kill quicker than a cnr



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