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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.01.13 20:33:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 13/01/2008 20:34:04
Originally by: Neon Genesis
What's ironic is that the game is exactly like this now, and there are people who think that a vagabond going at 5km/s can do anything to anyone.
WHich again gives us a couple more "traditional" setups to counter one:
1) Sleipnir: Same tracking speed with its guns (if the Vaga can hit, you can hit) plus 50% longer range AND almost 2x higher DPS. Plus plenty of tank to stay safe. If the Vaga slows down enough to shoot you then it will live less than 30 seconds. 2) AC-fitted Claymore: Tracking boost. If the Vaga can hit you, you can tear it apart. No vaga built can break its tank.
Basically what people are whining about is that you hav eto sacrifice something to kill hyper-speed fitted ships. You actually have to do a little less gank or tank. Doesn't matter that THEY do also....
Simply, if more people fit to stop them they would be less prevelant. Of course if you build your setups to kill nanos, you will probably die to gank ships or not have enough firepower to drop tank ships; but that is all part of the Paper-Rock-Scissors of Eve. Chose how you are going to fight, outfit against what you want to fight against, and hope you don't wind up in the other scenario.
Make your choices, deal with them.
Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Telkanes Serkant
Caldari Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2008.01.13 20:35:00 -
[122]
Speed! :)
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Merina Taom
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Posted - 2008.01.13 20:38:00 -
[123]
Actually a tempest with barrage will hit a vaga orbiting at 17km as well....and sure the tempest probably cant catch it alone, but have a smaller than BC ship around, and neut the vaga, he is pretty much dead. So many ways, just have to use some tactics.
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Gibbal Slogspit
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:07:00 -
[124]
Originally by: L70Rogue for you non-vets/newer players this is what a vagabond is capable of if someone decides to spend a little more isk for the fittings and implants. 423 dps and can run the mwd forever. how is that not overpowered...
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vagabondvr4.jpg
And the Maelstrom can be set up to tank 7K dps, whats your point?
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:28:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Neon Genesis Edited by: Neon Genesis on 13/01/2008 20:19:35
Originally by: In Theory Has anyone stated the most obvious way to balance speed, yet?
Tracking penalties... if your ship is moving so fast, there has got to be penalties to tracking, if not at least target lock resolution...
Yes, onboard computers can judge relative speed and adjust tracking- but a turret's gyros and mechanisms and only adjust so fast. If you're going to fly around at 6+km/s- your not going to be doing any damage, but likewise you can't really take any damage. So, speed allows you to dictate range and/or escape, but it doesn't provide you invincibility and a free ticket to pwn.
What's ironic is that the game is exactly like this now, and there are people who think that a vagabond going at 5km/s can do anything to anyone.
I can't hit crap with guns doing 2500m/s (aside from the feeble HML bay....drones are usually EWAR anyway). Doing ludicrous speeds guarantees lost drones, wasted ammo, and usually wayyyy out of any range...to the point of losing lock. Eventually the pilot has to settle into a stable mellow speed orbit to actually bring guns to bear.
And oh no....tracking disruptor.
Oh no...overloaded webber.
And so on.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Krows
Resource Reallocators Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:31:00 -
[126]
All of you quit complaining about the Vaginabond and complain about that annoying Ishtar. Honestly, I hear the phrase "nano-Ishtar" and I just want to strangle children. I've never even faced one before, the very concept of it makes my knuckles drag.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:31:00 -
[127]
For the record, the closest thing to a nanoship I can fly is an interceptor.
Now, you see, the difference between nanoships and conventional (non EW) ships is that nanoships have a huge advantage over anything not prepared for them. Unlike a conventional ship that, when caught, can stay and fight, a nanoship that is caught dies. Really fast. What can you use to catch a nanoship without an equivalent gang?
1. Heavy neuts. If it's in range to scram you, it'd best leave quick or it dies. Oh look, an entire tactic nullified by a single highslot on any battleship. 2. Inties with webs. Seriously, it isn't that ******* hard. No HAC should be outrunning your inties under normal circumstances. 3. Minnie recons. Nanoships have to fear them in a way no other ship has to fear EW. 4. The blob. It solves everything where you're otherwise not skilled enough to combat your opponents.
"But speed is lame, Kary! Everyone should get in the biggest ship they can fly, load it with plates and F1-F8! Like a man!"
Actually, evasion should be one of the key advantages cruisers and frigates have over battleships. In a world where everyone sits 2km from each other and slugs it out in a tank vs gank comparison, there is no place for HAC on the battlefield. And I love all these sci-fi references. They don't prove anything, and really shouldn't reflect overmuch on Eve balance, but how lame would Star Wars have been if all those tiny evasive ships up to and including the Millennium Falcon got insta popped every time they ran into anything bigger rather than evade the turrets and escape whenever it looked like things weren't going their way?
"Now I need to either fit neuts, have tacklers with webs, blob up or bring a minnie recon just to counter an enemy gang that doesn't want to hammer it out with us? You're forcing me to change my play style! Whine!"
This just in: Rock beats Scissors. Scissors outraged at being forced to counter with paper. Rock nerf expected any day now.
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:35:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Krows All of you quit complaining about the Vaginabond and complain about that annoying Ishtar. Honestly, I hear the phrase "nano-Ishtar" and I just want to strangle children. I've never even faced one before, the very concept of it makes my knuckles drag.
They're not that hard. Even if you aren't prepared to fight nanoships, you can waste the drones fairly easily and he doesn't quite go fast enough to be invulnerable to conventional tactics even with uber pimp fittings.
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:37:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Ariel Dawn Hey, lets pull numbers out of our ass! For a Vagabond to go as fast as the person who doesn't fly them was saying, you need a Gistum MWD, full HG Snakes/Shaqil, strong combat boosters and maxed skills. This ISK price of all of this is almost half a mothership's build cost. The average speed of nano-HACs is 3-5km/s and nowhere near 10km/s. Nano-HACs also have ****ty DPS and all have to be close to their targets to be effective. They are a popular choice because they let smaller groups of players actually do something. There is 0 chance of them killing any decent gang flown by competent players.
And actually TRY to fly a nano-HAC/CS/BS/etc. Anything going near 10km/s and beyond that isn't frigate sized becomes almost impossible to control due to agility issues. One misclick, one instant of lag or one mistake turns your paper-thin ship into a wreck. Your paper-thin ship that can buy you a gang of carriers or an entire fleet full of T2 fitted battleships.
God forbid having to think or use any strategy whatsoever in EVE-Online. Its clear some people can't think outside of what their FCs tell them to do. The game practically takes no skill and yet people want to dumb it down even further. Speed is not the same as electronic warfare or other module-oriented elements, its a core game play aspect. Kill speed and you kill solo/small gang warfare. Then you have 'whoever brought the most BS' fights.
Reducing speed isn't that simple either. If you change the modules, the differences between naturally fast ships and slower ones become more pronounced in regards to the latter catching the former. If you remove it completely you kill Minmatar (over-exaggeration, but the majority of their ships have neither the DPS or Tank of other races and require kiting tactics).
@ The EFT Warrior's 35.1km/s Vagabond, that sure is a mighty fast shuttle! Too bad you actually have to go under 3km/s to be able to hit a target with any sort of consistency, and that falloff takes away 40-60% of your DPS. But I do agree, Vagabonds do make nice shuttles.
Ariel Dawn, I always read your posts with much delight, because they are consistently rationally formulated.
However, I am afraid that people are actually ignoring logic in this thread. They come in, have never met a vagabond pilot before due to living in Motsu, see 35.1km/s and then decide that vagabonds are pretty damn overpowered, not realizing that the cost for such a vagabond is the same as a mothership.
So let's use other methods. Such as caps lock!
------> AVERAGE SPEED OF THE AVERAGE NANO-SHIP IS AROUND 4-5KM/S. <---------
And please start reading posts such as Ariel dawn's before you reply with "You are right, 35km/s are way too common nowadays. I read it on the internet".
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Lord Frost
Minmatar The Crystal Method
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:38:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Gibbal Slogspit
Your on about nerfing a whole style of fighting, and I dont even use nanoships.
You nerf a style of fighting you get fools like you happy because for once you can kill someone. Then the other people will say your style of fighting is overpowered.
Just shut up, eve is always going around in circles, let is settle down for once. Let CCP just boost classes that need it, like assualt ships, SOME amarr ships, and random other ships like the vargur and eagle. Make people happy rather than people ****ed off okay?
Let CCP only boost things rather than render them useless eh? EH? Its people like you who are ruining the experience because CCP give into whines. Hmm lets see what will happen next if CCP do nerf speed.....
All thats gunna happen is, which I predict and everytime I have predicted what people like you are gunna start moaning about I have been right. I am predicting turtle tanks if CCP do fall in for your ignorance to learn counters for things.
We're not talking about a style of fighting, we're talking about big ships who are not supposed to be zipping around faster than other ships that are built for speed. Faster than interceptors who are meant to be fast. These big ships are taking on roles meant for other ships. It's a flawed game design, that needs fixing.
What I can tell from your post is you have very little experience in any form of nano battle. It becomes an issue when a small nano gang can only be countered by another small nano gang. The problem is, there are only 3 or 4 good nano ships and you then have omitted pretty much 95% of the playing field.
And the big picture of this is... ready for it? Cause I'm about to hit you with some knowledge... nano ships RULE pvp! They are everywhere! Surprised? Maybe not if you carebear and haven't been out to 0.0 yet.
This post is meant to show you that even tho this is a fighting styles, it is ruining the pvp game and more and more muppets are doing it. Is that what you want for pvp? Speedy zip zip zipping ships and nobody doing anything... you gotta zip and web for any hope? It's a joke. People just let them run thru the space, becuase its near impossible to do anything about it.
There is still pure pvp out there, where you can actually lock, fight, and do damage... its rare, and its what this game is about. Actually fighting. I suggest you nano to another thread cuz you are clueless.
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SirMoric
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:39:00 -
[131]
If speed is really killing you, why do you stay and fight??
Just warp to the nearest station and dock, problem solved. If the speed-dude then want a fight he has to get a ship people want to fight.
Oh, and complaining about being a handfull of people dying to ONE speed-dude, that's just pathetic. You attacked him in force, he outsmarted you.... deal with it.
rgds
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Krows
Resource Reallocators Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:46:00 -
[132]
Wait, a Vagabond killed multiple people in the same engagement?
They all deserved to die, all of them. /thread
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:53:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Victor Ivanov on 13/01/2008 21:54:16
Originally by: Lord Frost ...What I can tell from your post is you have very little experience in any form of nano battle.
Originally by: Lord Frost ...we're talking about big ships who are not supposed to be zipping around faster than other ships that are built for speed. Faster than interceptors who are meant to be fast. (...) It becomes an issue when a small nano gang can only be countered by another small nano gang.
I sense irony...
Frosty, read 1 post up from yours please. Yes, my post. See those counters? Use them.
Originally by: Lord Frost ...Faster than interceptors...
...You aren't supposed to fit plates in the lows, tbqfh. :( ----------------------
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Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:56:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Lord Frost Faster than interceptors who are meant to be fast. These big ships are taking on roles meant for other ships.
First off, the vagabond's role is to be fast. That's what it does. It's got bonuses and ****. It's the advantage HAC have over BC and BS. Speed. They sacrifice tank and gank for it.
Secondly, you need new, non-sucky interceptor pilots. And gang compositions that include heavy neuts, minmatar recons, or interceptors with webs.
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Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:57:00 -
[135]
I thought nano ships did get nerfed. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join! |
Thorek Ironbrow
Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research
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Posted - 2008.01.13 21:59:00 -
[136]
Originally by: L70Rogue for you non-vets/newer players this is what a vagabond is capable of if someone decides to spend a little more isk for the fittings and implants. 423 dps and can run the mwd forever. how is that not overpowered...
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vagabondvr4.jpg
I'm pretty sure that set-up is useless, because the guns can't do anything untill you're so close to the enemy, that you may aswell kill your self. _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join! |
Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:00:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow I thought nano ships did get nerfed.
Once already. That was the nanofiber nerf, which made getting anything bigger than a HAC (with the possible exception of the machariel) fast enough to substitute speed for tank impossible.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:00:00 -
[138]
Here's my view on nanos:
The easiest way to fix them would not be to nerf the speed ships themselves, but to fix webs.
Currently webs are useless against speed ships on anything other then a nano-hughin/rapier/whateverthehelltheminmatarEASiscalled. The easy and simple way to fix this would be to make it so that webs work instantly, meaning if you're going 3km/s and I hit you with a 90% web you INSTANTLY slow down to 300m/s, rather then gradually slowing down. This would fix the nano problem without making nano-ships useless.
Quite frankly as it stands nano-ships are overpowered, people whine about spending over a bil on their setups but guess what? If you spend a bil on fittings for any non-nano HAC you don't get NEARLY as much survivability as you would with a nano-vaga/ishtar. The key to making eve more intersting isn't nerfing every good ship that shows up, but rather fixing ways to counter them, so that we see less of the FOTM setups and more ships built to counter other ships, adding more strategy and removing the IWIN buttons. (Not that nano ships are IWIN buttons, they're more like ICAN'TLOSE buttons ) Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:06:00 -
[139]
What should really get a nerfbat are snakes, poly's and fancy hardwirings. This way blaster boats and vagas still will be saved. Standard nano-ships are not invincible and can be countered in a number of ways. ISK should not be able to buy you I WIN button, the whole idea of pirate implants, T2 rigs and similar ridiculously expensive stuff being applicable to non-capital ships is flawed.
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Lucias Trask
Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:06:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Cambarus
Currently webs are useless against speed ships on anything other then a nano-hughin/rapier/whateverthehelltheminmatarEASiscalled. The easy and simple way to fix this would be to make it so that webs work instantly, meaning if you're going 3km/s and I hit you with a 90% web you INSTANTLY slow down to 300m/s, rather then gradually slowing down. This would fix the nano problem without making nano-ships useless.
/THIS
Webs should stop them. I would have hell of alot more nano-kills and wouldnt have to spend the time bouncing them back and forth between gates until they ran into one of us to stop them.
Although then my ceptors/dictors would die more as well... hell with it those are cheap. [PANIC] |
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FuzzBuzz
Caldari North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:22:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Lord Frost PvP has turned into a speed game, and I can guarantee this is NOT what CCP visioned for a mainstream tactic.
Like other nerfs, deal with it... we all know how many changes have been made and how many new and interesting times evolved. Like all things its time for a change. I actually like changes in these kinds of game, it widdles down those that are only here to have pure gank and i-win schemes.
When one tactic becomes overpowered, change it... I'm sure there'll be another tactic all the muppets jump to, but at least the game keeps us entertained. Right now eve is leaning too far to one side... time for another counter balance to improve the overall quality and fun aspect.
Here's a nano's mentality: I can zip around and not die, because there's less than 2% of all the entire ships in Eve that can counter it.
what about blobs, the reason why we fly them is we can pick and choose and ESCAPE a 25 man blob after or 5 man gang.
NERF THE ******* BLOB ----- In this game, what becomes popular becomes overpowered, what becomes overpowered gets nerfed. NEXT! endless cycle. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:35:00 -
[142]
Maybe a crazy thought, maybe not: Boost every ship's base speed by a factor of 10. Maybe we'll get some real tactics and not these psuedo tactics.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 22:59:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Dracon Zethera So... what you are saying is to make it either you tank or gank. That sounds like a lot of fun.
A game without an option for speed is a bad game. Yeah it is a bit out of hand right now, but to remove it completely is completely stupid.
I don't think anyone's making the case that speed should not be an option.
There's lots of people arguing both ways it seems, as to whether the current state of play is just plain silly or not though. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:00:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Gibbal Slogspit
Originally by: L70Rogue for you non-vets/newer players this is what a vagabond is capable of if someone decides to spend a little more isk for the fittings and implants. 423 dps and can run the mwd forever. how is that not overpowered...
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vagabondvr4.jpg
And the Maelstrom can be set up to tank 7K dps, whats your point?
The maelstrom will die when the vaga can run? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Merina Taom
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Posted - 2008.01.13 23:53:00 -
[145]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Gibbal Slogspit
Originally by: L70Rogue for you non-vets/newer players this is what a vagabond is capable of if someone decides to spend a little more isk for the fittings and implants. 423 dps and can run the mwd forever. how is that not overpowered...
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vagabondvr4.jpg
And the Maelstrom can be set up to tank 7K dps, whats your point?
The maelstrom will die when the vaga can run?
Get a heavy neut on the vaga and an interceptor pilot and id like to see the vaga run...
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:11:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Lazuran This thread seems to be about people having too much ISK and benefiting from it. Please, CCP, nerf ISK. Nerf ships costing 5b and benefiting from it ...
Show me a 5b, or even 10b ship+setup that has even HALF the survivability of a vaga. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
DroneBay Diva
The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:12:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Victor Ivanov
Yeah, that's right. The only thing that counters a vagabond is a 20 man gang.
TBH, I prefer this one. _____________________________________________________________________________
Proud to be a Nano-f*g |
Ephemeron
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:21:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Merina Taom You cant balance something based on what it does with faction-gear and deadspace gear. Simply because that equipment is not something the standard pilot uses, they cant afford to. Most people use T2 on T2 ships, thus you should not balance it around anything but T2. To say that "it is so and so overpowered using implants+best gear+gang-bonuses" is more a sign of how unbalanced those things are rather than the ship itself.
This is very important point.
Those who want to point out the imbalance of speed always end up giving examples of ships with officer/complex gear and 2.5 billion in Snake implants. Same arguement can be used for nerfing tanking, because tanking officer gear is much more powerful.
You will never have perfect balance as long as officer/complex gear and pirate implants exist. If you really want vanilla PvP, why don't you argue that there should only be t2 and t1 mods, nothing else. As soon as you start giving example of 8+km vaga/mach, your arguement is dismissed.
Those who argue that extreme speed setups are unkillable are very naive. In EVE - if it undocks, it can be killed. In EVE - if something can be killed, it will be killed sooner or later.
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Irongut
M'8'S Frontal Impact
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:33:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Lord Frost CCP, you really have to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Speed IS NOT the rule in Eve! I can't believe for the love of God you guys don't nerf this lame tactic out of existence. I didn't start this game to have it evolve into a Need For Speed IV. No one in their right mind makes any sci-fi game or movie and has speed play such a big role. Okay, well maybe "Tron". But come one people... get real.
Sorry to rain on your parade but the Need For Speed project has NOTHING to do with the speed of ships. Need For Speed is about making the server and client code run faster so that there is less lag. At least get your facts straight before you start a nerf whine thread.
--
Join M8S Racing Team sponsored by Frontier Technologies! |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.14 01:38:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Merina Taom ...
This is very important point.
Those who want to point out the imbalance of speed always end up giving examples of ships with officer/complex gear and 2.5 billion in Snake implants. Same arguement can be used for nerfing tanking, because tanking officer gear is much more powerful.
You will never have perfect balance as long as officer/complex gear and pirate implants exist. If you really want vanilla PvP, why don't you argue that there should only be t2 and t1 mods, nothing else. As soon as you start giving example of 8+km vaga/mach, your arguement is dismissed.
Those who argue that extreme speed setups are unkillable are very naive. In EVE - if it undocks, it can be killed. In EVE - if something can be killed, it will be killed sooner or later.
People who argue that good nano-ships cost over a bil often forget that nano-ships aren't the only ships that can be so expensively fit.
Pit 10 faction fit CNRs against 10 faction fir vagas, and guess who's gonna win? Against 10 faction fit deimos? Hactors?
The problem with speed tanks as it stands is that it's PRACTICAL to fit a bil in mods on the ship, because you will lose it far less then 20% as often as a 200mil fit ship.
Put a bil in mods on just about any non-nano ship and you can still lose it easily Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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