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Vlip Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:59:00 - [1] I'd like to bring attention to two weapon systems that are utterly useless right now. Namely T2 light drones and light precision missiles. Both are clearly meant as anti-fast frigate weapon systems and both utterly fail at that task. A t2 warrior with drone navigation V tops out at 6.3km/s which is quite insufficient in nowaday's eve where you routinely meet 15km/s interceptors. Hell the vast majority of plain jain t2 interceptors already go faster than 6.3km/s. The same is equally true with precision light missiles (though I am unsure of the math of explosion velocity) which are unable to score 1 point of damage against any plain jain t2 interceptor. Couple that with the short range that an interceptor can get out of in 2-3 seconds and you have a useless weapon system. I personnally don't mind speed per se, but there is a big inadequacy between speed and the engagement envelop of anti-speed weaponry. Obviously nerfing speed would be a solution, but boosting light drone speed so that they can engage fast interceptors and boosting precision missiles so that they can actually damage fast interceptors could be another possibility. Food for thought.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 09:04:00 - [2] Originally by: Vlip I'd like to bring attention to two weapon systems that are utterly useless right now. Namely T2 light drones and light precision missiles. Both are clearly meant as anti-fast frigate weapon systems and both utterly fail at that task. A t2 warrior with drone navigation V tops out at 6.3km/s which is quite insufficient in nowaday's eve where you routinely meet 15km/s interceptors. Hell the vast majority of plain jain t2 interceptors already go faster than 6.3km/s. The same is equally true with precision light missiles (though I am unsure of the math of explosion velocity) which are unable to score 1 point of damage against any plain jain t2 interceptor. Couple that with the short range that an interceptor can get out of in 2-3 seconds and you have a useless weapon system. I personnally don't mind speed per se, but there is a big inadequacy between speed and the engagement envelop of anti-speed weaponry. Obviously nerfing speed would be a solution, but boosting light drone speed so that they can engage fast interceptors and boosting precision missiles so that they can actually damage fast interceptors could be another possibility. Food for thought. There are anti inty weapons. Hacs, anti inties, etc etc. No you cant have an anti inty weapon that can be fitted on every single ship in the game because that would make the whole ship class obsolete. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Vlip Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:11:00 - [3] Obsolete? I find that dubious at best. Your typical sniper battleship has at most two utility slots and it's not with two assault launchers that it'll obsolete inties... Now if you want to put 8 assault launchers on your slow lumbering beast that'll take 2 years to lock an inty... why not... your loss What I dislike with nowadays system is that any solo inty can basically lock down a battleship and there is absolutey nothing the BS can do about it. Now, I'm not calling for a BS to be able to nuke the annoying gnat and go on its merry way. But give it the ability to chase off the solo inty in a few minutes. If the inty is not alone it changes nothing to the current situation.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Gamesguy on 15/01/2008 10:18:49 Originally by: Vlip Obsolete? I find that dubious at best. Your typical sniper battleship has at most two utility slots and it's not with two assault launchers that it'll obsolete inties... Now if you want to put 8 assault launchers on your slow lumbering beast that'll take 2 years to lock an inty... why not... your loss What I dislike with nowadays system is that any solo inty can basically lock down a battleship and there is absolutey nothing the BS can do about it. Now, I'm not calling for a BS to be able to nuke the annoying gnat and go on its merry way. But give it the ability to chase off the solo inty in a few minutes. If the inty is not alone it changes nothing to the current situation. Red herring. Any battleship can field a flight of warriors. If warriors are actually effective vs well skilled inties, you would obsolete the whole class. Not to mention you can simply fit a heavy neut on your BS to get away from tacklers. Precision lights are effective vs standard t2 fit inties, it isnt effective vs deadspace fitted inties with snakes, but then again it shouldn't be.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Gamesguy Red herring. Any battleship can field a flight of warriors. If warriors are actually effective vs well skilled inties, you would obsolete the whole class. Not to mention you can simply fit a heavy neut on your BS to get away from tacklers. Precision lights are effective vs standard t2 fit inties, it isnt effective vs deadspace fitted inties with snakes, but then again it shouldn't be. This. Warrior IIs are already very fast anyway and preety much shred frigs/etc. Do they shred inties? Not really. Should they shred inties as well? Seeing how every BC is capable of fielding a full flight of warriors (not to even talk about battleships) and many cruises are, as well, what's the point of having interceptors anymore? Precision lights do kill plain T2 fits as it is now anyway. I don't see a problem with interceptors; if anything, the standard T2 fits are too easy to kill. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Katarlia Simov on 15/01/2008 10:36:26 Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 15/01/2008 10:18:49 Originally by: Vlip Obsolete? I find that dubious at best. Your typical sniper battleship has at most two utility slots and it's not with two assault launchers that it'll obsolete inties... Now if you want to put 8 assault launchers on your slow lumbering beast that'll take 2 years to lock an inty... why not... your loss What I dislike with nowadays system is that any solo inty can basically lock down a battleship and there is absolutey nothing the BS can do about it. Now, I'm not calling for a BS to be able to nuke the annoying gnat and go on its merry way. But give it the ability to chase off the solo inty in a few minutes. If the inty is not alone it changes nothing to the current situation. Red herring. Any battleship can field a flight of warriors. If warriors are actually effective vs well skilled inties, you would obsolete the whole class. Not to mention you can simply fit a heavy neut on your BS to get away from tacklers. I agree with you a lot here. Battleships can happily kick inties out of their way if the pilot has a few ounces of sense. Thats definitely for sure. Originally by: Gamesguy Precision lights are effective vs standard t2 fit inties, it isnt effective vs deadspace fitted inties with snakes, but then again it shouldn't be. In the spirit of open discussion, and not to imply in any way that deadspace fitted inties are overpowered or should be nerfed or anything, but simply to pu tthe question out here in the context of this discussion: What should be the counter to deadspace/snake fits ? I mean, as there isn't an equivilent deadspace precision missiles and officer neuts are beyond what anyone is likely to want to spend on filling their utility slots... Like I say ... not whining or anything (am almost exclsuively a cecptor pilot for most things) ... just wondering ...
Taraniis MAFIA	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:42:00 - [7] Your drones are only part of the final weapon, combine drones and sensor dampners with a webber and viola, your man is dead. I have never seen an inty with a sensor booster so just fit a range reduction script and bring him nice and close. Failing that, buy a dictor
Ban Shui Eve University	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:43:00 - [8] What about other interceptors? The minnie ships with web range bonus?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:53:00 - [9] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/01/2008 10:53:56 No matter how fast an inty is its still going to die or flee if its tackling your friend and you go after it. It cant stay out of several peoples webrange or transversal. This whole thread and people agreeing to it is just a disguised rant about battleships and other big ships not being able to counter EVERY other ship in the game SOLO. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Vlip Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:24:00 - [10] As I said before I don't want battleships to be able to swat inties out of the sky. All I want is to give them the ability to slowly and painstakingly get rid of an inty. I suppose a little scenario is necessary. Say BS A is caught by inty B. Inty B has no chance whatsoever of ever killing the BS due to its wimpy dps but can indefinitely scram the BS. Nowadays, the BS can do only one thing, log out. What I'd like to make possible would be for the BS to fend off the inty after, say, 5 minutes. So yes, hit the inty, but very low DPS. This could easily be done with precision missiles. Drones, yeah, a bit hairier since they tend to be kinda binary in their damage, either they nuke you out of existence or they don't hit at all. This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And for the love of Oveur can you guys stop with the "He wants his battleship to destroy everything on its path solo"? It's simply not my intention.

zorgluba Doom Guard	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:44:00 - [11] Edited by: zorgluba on 15/01/2008 11:45:48 No. Originally by: Vlip I'd like to bring attention to two weapon systems that are utterly useless right now. Namely T2 light drones and light precision missiles. Do you fly an interceptor ? Those are already very efficient. Originally by: Vlip Both are clearly meant as anti-fast frigate weapon systems and both utterly fail at that task. Then again I don't agree. As a ceptor pilot I find them bloody efficient. Originally by: Vlip A t2 warrior with drone navigation V tops out at 6.3km/s which is quite insufficient in nowaday's eve where you routinely meet 15km/s interceptors. Hell the vast majority of plain jain t2 interceptors already go faster than 6.3km/s. 6.3km/sec is faster than 95% of the orbiting speeds you will find in actual pvp fights. Yes you can go alot faster but it requires LOTS of ISk and skills. Speed is the only defence for interceptors. There are already alot, and I mean ALOT, of ways to defend against ceptors, the changes that you ask for to be actually able to kill the odd 5% using snakes+faction+rigs would mean that anyone not using them will die instantly. To make a long story short : No. Edit : What we need is a balancing of ceptors effective damage. I pod ... nano
ry ry StateCorp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:45:00 - [12] a single heavy neut will ruin an inty's day. *again.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Vlip As I said before I don't want battleships to be able to swat inties out of the sky. All I want is to give them the ability to slowly and painstakingly get rid of an inty. I suppose a little scenario is necessary. Say BS A is caught by inty B. Inty B has no chance whatsoever of ever killing the BS due to its wimpy dps but can indefinitely scram the BS. Nowadays, the BS can do only one thing, log out. Wrong again. You can deaggress and jump/dock. If you're caught at a belt, then use your brain and manually fly your bs so the inty's orbit takes him into a giant veld roid at which point you one volley him. Quote: What I'd like to make possible would be for the BS to fend off the inty after, say, 5 minutes. So yes, hit the inty, but very low DPS. This could easily be done with precision missiles. Drones, yeah, a bit hairier since they tend to be kinda binary in their damage, either they nuke you out of existence or they don't hit at all. This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And for the love of Oveur can you guys stop with the "He wants his battleship to destroy everything on its path solo"? It's simply not my intention. You already have such a tool, its called a heavy neutralizer.
Valea Silpha Death Monkey's With Knives Rare Faction	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:05:00 - [14] Question to the OP: When you say you want the BS to be able to slowly drive the inty off, do you realise that if any inty has scrammed a BS he has no chance of killing, he's not doing it just to annoy the other pilot ? Chances are he has friends comming, which may just be anotehr bs, or a hac, or just anything that has a fair chance of blowing up the bs. What situation do you see arising where an inty pilot might need to stay engaged on his own against a BS pilot for more than say a minute ? If he has support close by, then they will likely as not be at most one jump away. So what if the ceptor can run around the BS for days on end... If he doesn't have support, and can't do anything more constructive than wasting his ammo on you, why would he bother sticking around ? You can't just sit there merrily scramming someone and waiting for their friends to arrive. If you have engaged a Bs solo in a ceptor, you have done it with the express purpose of holding him there until your gang come to kill him. Slowly grinding a ceptor off you isn't really an option. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:17:00 - [15] Baalghorn domination web. 4 TS Neut. The end of every nano ship, interceptors and likely everything smaller than a Battleship. :P (they might to start getting cheaper when delve gets open to businnes ;) ) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Vlip This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And if you had a friend the inty would have been dead or forced to flee. You are alone, you die. I dont see the problem really. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Vlip This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And if you had a friend the inty would have been dead or forced to flee. You are alone, you die. I dont see the problem really. this implies that the only valid way to fight is blobing. You cant be serious.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:51:00 - [18] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 15/01/2008 12:54:53 Anti-Inty=Support ships BS's are not designed for this role. Inty scram range bonus is specifically to be able to pin your lumbering butt from where those horrible heavy neuts can't hit (with Inty IV). It's not like he's gonna kill you or even dent your shields. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Andreask14 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Vlip This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And if you had a friend the inty would have been dead or forced to flee. You are alone, you die. I dont see the problem really. this implies that the only valid way to fight is blobing. You cant be serious. No, because you could have chosen to fly something else. A ship that would destroy an inty/tackler. You chose to fly a BS and you got to live with the downside that it can be tackled. Isnt it enough that battleships rat with 1xWCS + 1xcloak? I mean its basically impossible to catch anyone anyway and you want to limit this further? Its not gonna happen. ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
Goshinko State War Academy	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Andreask14 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Vlip This doesn't change much as if the inty has any friend nearby the BS will still die. And if you had a friend the inty would have been dead or forced to flee. You are alone, you die. I dont see the problem really. this implies that the only valid way to fight is blobing. You cant be serious. On the contrary, you can't be serious. It's a sad day and age when two people equals the blob. Originally by: IHeartYou However, Crows seem to suit me best because it's just so much fun to toy with your target, then own them with your 150-200dps.

Herring Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2008.01.15 14:22:00 - [21] Edited by: Herring on 15/01/2008 14:24:01 I've no experience with precision lights but warrior II's I've gotten up to 7.9k/sec post trinity. Granted that some interceptors are gonna blow that away, but not all. And no this isn't using EFT (EFT is for amarr ). It's a setup I've tested ingame to see how fast I could actually get them to go. Edit: and my drone navigation is only at 3. CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.15 14:36:00 - [22] Originally by: Herring (EFT is for amarr ). I demand this person to be trialed for heresy! ------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition II - Vanguardian
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.01.15 22:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Vlip in nowaday's eve where you routinely meet 15km/s interceptors. Hell the vast majority of plain jain t2 interceptors already go faster than 6.3km/s. HAHAHAAHA in an inty pilot's wet dreams from what i've hear 95% of all inties go faster than 2000wtf km/s
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.01.15 22:59:00 - [24] Max skills a precision light missile goes 8400m/sec. But has an explosion velocity of 4500m/sec. Strikes me that's a pretty slow inty. shrug. I'd maybe agree about them being useful, if they didn't slow you down when you loaded them. The support ship that's chasing after other 'ceptors really can't afford a speed penalty. But then I guess it'd be a T2 ammo that was actually useful, so meh. On the subject of explosion velocity, I would like to see an increase in precision heavys. At the moment you've got: Precision light: 3000m/sec (4500 with skills) Precision heavy: 1000m/sec (1500 with skills) Precision cruise: 1000m/sec (1500with skills). 2000m/sec sounds a bit more reasonable, wouldn't you agree? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.15 23:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Katarlia Simov In the spirit of open discussion, and not to imply in any way that deadspace fitted inties are overpowered or should be nerfed or anything, but simply to pu tthe question out here in the context of this discussion: What should be the counter to deadspace/snake fits ? I mean, as there isn't an equivilent deadspace precision missiles and officer neuts are beyond what anyone is likely to want to spend on filling their utility slots... Like I say ... not whining or anything (am almost exclsuively a cecptor pilot for most things) ... just wondering ... Domination web on a Hyena... or 2 regular ones. BTW - unless i've started taking drugs since i lat flew a ceptor (which was about 3 weeks ago) - falloff bonus'd autos, small arties/beams/rails with range bonus'd low damage ammo and medium autocannons aswell like raping inties. Ever seen an inty take on a vagabond... ok it is possible to survive against a vaga and even get it locked down long enough for help to arrive... actually doing decent damage is near impossible. I feel you may be ejected from goons for trying to get a frigate class ship nerfed. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.01.15 23:24:00 - [26] There are several counters to interceptors, including the two you mention, heavy neuts, ECM, damps, webs, friends... This is, and will always be, a rant centering around being caught ratting in a belt. It has never been anything but this in every thread asking for an I-WIN button against tacklers. In any other situation (aside from being caught at a safespot), there are numerous ways to get away from the frigate.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.16 00:29:00 - [27] It'd be nice if the Stealth Bombers got a bonus to cruise missile explosion velocity, though. The explosion radius bonus does **-all to a speeding interceptor. The SB's cruisies should be the inty's nemesis within the frigate ship classes. -- Guile can always trump hardware --**
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.01.16 04:36:00 - [28] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 16/01/2008 04:36:49 Originally by: Guillame Herschel It'd be nice if the Stealth Bombers got a bonus to cruise missile explosion velocity, though. The explosion radius bonus does ****-all to a speeding interceptor. The SB's cruisies should be the inty's nemesis within the frigate ship classes. For once I totally agree with someone. Although swapping the bonuses would make it even less effective against any ship below a BC. Not sure how to balance this though; swap a damage bonus or the cloaked movement I guess, sadly I like both of these bonuses.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.16 04:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Maeltstome BTW - unless i've started taking drugs since i lat flew a ceptor (which was about 3 weeks ago) - falloff bonus'd autos, small arties/beams/rails with range bonus'd low damage ammo and medium autocannons aswell like raping inties. Ever seen an inty take on a vagabond... ok it is possible to survive against a vaga and even get it locked down long enough for help to arrive... actually doing decent damage is near impossible. I feel you may be ejected from goons for trying to get a frigate class ship nerfed. Totally true. Last time I've been tackled by two inties in a Cyclone, one died, second one zoomed off in half armour. Trying to orbit a 1.55km/s ship (leadership skills ftw) using 220s II in a regular T2-fit inty is quite bloody dangerous as it is. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Julius Romanus Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2008.01.16 05:34:00 - [30] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Maeltstome BTW - unless i've started taking drugs since i lat flew a ceptor (which was about 3 weeks ago) - falloff bonus'd autos, small arties/beams/rails with range bonus'd low damage ammo and medium autocannons aswell like raping inties. Ever seen an inty take on a vagabond... ok it is possible to survive against a vaga and even get it locked down long enough for help to arrive... actually doing decent damage is near impossible. I feel you may be ejected from goons for trying to get a frigate class ship nerfed. Totally true. Last time I've been tackled by two inties in a Cyclone, one died, second one zoomed off in half armour. Trying to orbit a 1.55km/s ship (leadership skills ftw) using 220s II in a regular T2-fit inty is quite bloody dangerous as it is. I used to tackle for a vagacane/sleipnir pilot a lot in my malediction pre trinity. I consider the malediction to be an ace inty popper, but frankly when he was around it was more effecient just to let 220's + motion predict 5 + 3% tracking implant deal with them.



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