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Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:47:00 - [62] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. No, many minmatar ships have MORE cap then amarr ships if you count weapon cap usage, even at max skills. It is an advantage. Hint: Look at the inties for example. Count in cap usage of guns and then compare capless with cap using weapons. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:48:00 - [63] Anyway this is bull****. Missiles don't use cap. Torpedoes don't use cap. Drones don't use cap. And yet all these ships have more capacitor than minmatar ships, more range or more damage.
eve warrior Minmatar Filthy Scum Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Maybe 7 turrets on a fleet tempest, but otherwise no, it would be overpowered. signed
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:50:00 - [65] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. No, many minmatar ships have MORE cap then amarr ships if you count weapon cap usage, even at max skills. It is an advantage. Hint: Look at the inties for example. Count in cap usage of guns and then compare capless with cap using weapons. Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Nasta443 Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking? Stiletto with MSE? I think you definately picked the wrong race. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:06:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nasta443 Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking? Stiletto with MSE? I think you definately picked the wrong race. What the hell are you talking about picking the wrong race? And a stiletto with a MSE? Lol go on and try it I'm sure you will get a lot of neut/web love when closing in to shoot stuff with your lol damage. So basically because you fit a MSE on a stiletto and it can shoot while neuted, suddenly minmatar ac's are superior. Hahahahaha. For all that lovely range that minmatar ships tend to depend on, do you know what you can't use when you are neutered? MWD. Do you know what happens when you can't use it? We get you in web range. Do you know what happens when we do? You get raped. So compare getting raped with your supposed situation of not being able to shoot anymore. Minmatar capacitors being superior because they use autocannons is a very bad joke.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. Armageddon base: 5312, typhoon base: 5000 Maelstrom base: 6000, Abaddon base: 6300 300 cap is enough to fire one volley. You must be delusional to think the "cap advantage" of amarr exists on anything except your imagination. Minmatar and caldari have more cap to work with on all their ships, why? Because their weapons dont use cap and the difference in capacitor size between ships of the same class is minimal compared to the cap usage of lasers and hybrids.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:24:00 - [69] Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid. See, originally, Hail had a speed penalty on it. This was removed 1 year ago. At that point, Hail become awesome. Then faction ammo was made readily available. Then Hail was meerly "good". Then nothing changed. Then it was now Welcome to now, hail is good.
AstroPhobic Minmatar Primero.	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:34:00 - [70] 7th turret might be much, but another mid/low would be lovely. Abaddon class tank is a joke, there's no powergrid with a full rack of 1400s, and you need a PDU to fit THAT. A midslot tank would mean you can only hit/lock to about 120 with tremor, and would be pathetic. And yes, Autocannons are sub-par. 800s with hail is hardly comparable to neutrons with void/am s. The tracking is nothing beautiful and range is ugly ugly. Going into falloff, combined with tracking of hail, there's a very noticeable DPS loss. Not to mention the whole "capless" weapons arguement fails because minmatar cap is ugly ugly. The natural regen from other battleships' large capacitors almost negates the fact that their weapons use cap. Not to mention that when cap regen mods/rigs are applied to those ships, the arguement just goes completely down the toilet. I'm not asking for something huge, but the tempest does lack power for a double damage BS.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Gamesguy Armageddon base: 5312, typhoon base: 5000 Maelstrom base: 6000, Abaddon base: 6300 300 cap is enough to fire one volley. You must be delusional to think the "cap advantage" of amarr exists on anything except your imagination. Ok look at it with more detail then. First its around 400 and not 300 with l5 skills. If you think they are irrelevant why not make it the same on both ships. The geddon has 8 lows in exchange of the 4 mids of the phoon. It has 1465 points of armor more which is 21% more than the phoon which is 20 seconds worth of a lar that roughly cost 710 cap, and thats without even taking into account rigs. So at the moment you are about 1100 ahead in cap. 7 mega pulse iis are -24.7 cap per second, so thats 45 seconds of "free" firing. Now most likely the geddon will be plated instead of repped so it has all the cap in the world for shooting or neuting. And the phoon has to decide whether it wants to play passive tank vs a ship that has 21% more natural armor, or play active tank when it has a lot of trouble fitting a heavy injector and 2 lars. Or fit a medium capacitor injector and run out of cap before getting to the 3 mins mark. Or fit two injectors and forget about the ab at all. Or fit a fitting mod on the lows. Doesn't it seem like the geddon has less cap troubles than the phoon, as long as the geddon doesn't try to force the ship into an active tank?
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:43:00 - [72] Edited by: Nasta443 on 23/02/2008 01:43:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid Or maybe maybe it is because hail reduces your falloff by 50% dropping you straight into web range with even 800mm turrets? What was this thing I keep reading about range? Ah the hell with it because unless you web the other guy and you are webbed too you won't hit it anyway. Oh and hail + tracking disruptor? lolololololol
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Nasta443 Minmatar capacitors being superior because they use autocannons is a very bad joke. But its the truth -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:01:00 - [74] Originally by: Nasta443 Ok look at it with more detail then. First its around 400 and not 300 with l5 skills. If you think they are irrelevant why not make it the same on both ships. Because I'll take any advantage I can get? Quote: The geddon has 8 lows in exchange of the 4 mids of the phoon. It has 1465 points of armor more which is 21% more than the phoon which is 20 seconds worth of a lar that roughly cost 710 cap, and thats without even taking into account rigs. And the phoon has 110 more dps than the geddon with both ships using no dmg mods, and the phoon has 4 mids, is faster, has spare drones, etc. Quote: So at the moment you are about 1100 ahead in cap. 7 mega pulse iis are -24.7 cap per second, so thats 45 seconds of "free" firing. Thats with no heatsinks. 45 seconds of firing vs a ship that can fire forever with no cap? What you expect every fight to be over in 45 seconds? Where is the amarr cap advantage moron? Quote: Now most likely the geddon will be plated instead of repped so it has all the cap in the world for shooting or neuting. And the phoon has to decide whether it wants to play passive tank vs a ship that has 21% more natural armor, or play active tank when it has a lot of trouble fitting a heavy injector and 2 lars. Or fit a medium capacitor injector and run out of cap before getting to the 3 mins mark. Or fit two injectors and forget about the ab at all. Or fit a fitting mod on the lows. Phoon's passive tank is far superior to the geddons, because it doesnt have CPU problems with fitting eanm, and it doesnt have to fit damage mods due to its 8 bonus weapon slots+5 heavy drones. Fitting a cap injector is basically conceeding there is no amarr acp advantage, since the first time you inject an 800 charge the whopping 400 cap difference is negligible. Its hilarious how hard to try and come up with ways to make minnie ships seem bad. I'd take a phoon up against a geddon anyday, and there is practically no way for the geddon to win. Quote: Doesn't it seem like the geddon has less cap troubles than the phoon, as long as the geddon doesn't try to force the ship into an active tank? Why would the phoon have cap troubles? It only uses cap for mwd and point/web. Only ******s active tank the phoon, the thing is a plated monster because you can dedicated all 7 lows to tanking.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:03:00 - [75] Originally by: Nasta443 Edited by: Nasta443 on 23/02/2008 01:43:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid Or maybe maybe it is because hail reduces your falloff by 50% dropping you straight into web range with even 800mm turrets? What was this thing I keep reading about range? Ah the hell with it because unless you web the other guy and you are webbed too you won't hit it anyway. So ***** what? You gonna dictate range with a geddon and AN MF? Or a mega with CN AM? Minnie ships(on the bs level anyways) stay out of web range because it lets them run away and disengage if things turn bad. Its a luxury, not a right. You want to do the same dps as everybody else? Then go in web range like everybody else. Quote:** Oh and hail + tracking disruptor? lolololololol This is different with blasters and pulse how?
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:31:00 - [76] The Tempest is not a bad ship. The Tempest got all of its roles nerfed. HP boost pretty much nerfed Tempest alpha capabilities. Introduction of the Maelstrom gave a very nasty no-tackling crazy shield tank + ganking autocannon machine of death. Typhoon with new torps make an excellent passive armor tanked machine, hurricane gives 6 turrets of death in a cheap package so yeah the auto-pest has a lot of competition in the short range minmatar combat area now. Tempest can do a lot of things pretty well but can't do one thing the best. It can do a lot with those 2 extra high slots, large neuts, smartbombs, torps, cruise, drone link aug, cloak, remote rep, etc. The tempest is a good ship, I'm sure any tempest fit you can EFT warrior a better fit with a different BS but that doesn't mean the ship is terrible, it just has no direction. Another slot or turret hardpoint would be too much, a better buff would be a tiny bit more cpu/grid or maybe some more speed or agility.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.02.23 03:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaal Erit Another slot or turret hardpoint would be too much, a better buff would be a tiny bit more cpu/grid or maybe some more speed or agility. Another slot would be stupidly overpowered, but moving some slots around wouldn't. I'd like to see the tempest and typhoon slot-layouts swapped, with the tempest getting 8/4/7, and the phoon getting 8/5/6. I would fly BOTH these ships more if such a change were to occur; the tempest as a big tank with the advantage of utility high-slots, and the phoon as a no-tackle gang ship with an HP shield tank and DPS out the ass.
George Benson hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.23 04:34:00 - [78] Uhmm... It can use 6 projectile guns with +25% RoF AND +25% damage bonus. Additional room for 2 large launchers or smartbombs. Bandwidth for 4 heavy drones. Can you find another battleship with such good damage potential? Projectile guns do not have the DPS to make this ship overpowered, it simply just makes the ship good. It's not the ship, it's the guns. So yeah, my 2 cents.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.02.23 04:51:00 - [79] Originally by: George Benson Uhmm... It can use 6 projectile guns with +25% RoF AND +25% damage bonus. Additional room for 2 large launchers or smartbombs. Bandwidth for 4 heavy drones. Can you find another battleship with such good damage potential? Projectile guns do not have the DPS to make this ship overpowered, it simply just makes the ship good. It's not the ship, it's the guns. So yeah, my 2 cents. WTB Tempest with 4x heavy drones. Yes I can find plenty of battleships with good damage potential, like the torp raven, blaster mega, typhoon, geddon, domi... Mainly it sucks having 2 bonuses to a weapon and only fitting 3/4 of your high slots with that bonused weapon. Not really unbalanced but ugh everyone other race gets 7 turrets/launchers on their gank boats so minmatar ships get really jeaous.
George Benson hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.23 05:40:00 - [80] Originally by: Vaal Erit WTB Tempest with 4x heavy drones. My bad, 3.
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2008.02.23 06:32:00 - [81] just a silly question: all talk about them big smackin' alphas and dps and whatever, ok, but at what range? And no no, minmatar philosophy doesnt work in small ships either. For example stiletto is the minnie ceptor of choice cuz it got exceptional electronics capabilities, and on another hand claw is flown only by either newbs or the hardcore extreme ppl. But i guess claw doesnt represent minnie philosophy that much better cuz its not agile and fastest neither, but atleast it got crappy electronics laughs and points at the 17km locking range But still we go on.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 09:49:00 - [82] Edited by: Happster on 23/02/2008 09:50:09 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid. See, originally, Hail had a speed penalty on it. This was removed 1 year ago. At that point, Hail become awesome. Then faction ammo was made readily available. Then Hail was meerly "good". Then nothing changed. Then it was now Welcome to now, hail is good. EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Aynway... Comparing the pest to mega and other 7 low slots BS is like meh. You use hail and 3 damage mods in low to figure out the dps it can spit out. 1. Hail dps is teoretical and will never ever happen. Even if you got max skills, your guns do miss when using Hail. 2. You take away 3 of a total of 6 low slots, leaving only 3 slots left for tank 3. I havent dont the math comparation on this. But, if a 800 gun only does 76 more dps then a launcher if we would get 1 extra turret slot. I wouldnt say that would be so overpowered at all. Espesially as the 76 extra dps will be less when not using 3 gyros. Torps doesnt use cap :P Remember, if you do wish to fit some sort of tank, you need your PG.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:12:00 - [83] Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:17:00 - [84] Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Dray Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me. IMO changing the pest to 4/7 and the phoon to 5/6 would be perfect.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:25:00 - [86] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Dray Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me. IMO changing the pest to 4/7 and the phoon to 5/6 would be perfect. Sounds good, dont foget to switch the shield and armour hp on the tempest tho
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:51:00 - [87] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Happster Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done? I've flown a mega loaded with void, and I've flown a geddon loaded with conflag. So ya, you don't know what you're talking about.
Jalmari Huitsikko Caldari Karjala Inc. Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:59:00 - [89] Tempest is fine ship. 6 "primary" type weapons is perfectly in line with other tier 2 battleships. Pest is good with both autocannons and artillery, it can also pretty much armor tank or shield tank. Could you possibly have better ship for its price? Use the remaining 2 high slots for neutralizers, cloak, salvager, tractor beam, probe launcher, light missile launchers, drone range enhancers... you name it. It's not popular ship because it sucks. It doesn't have 8 high slots just so you would fill them all with autocannons for maximum gankage. It has 8 high slots so you have 2 free slots for something else than guns! If you want 8 turrets use maelstorm, it's tier 3 minmatar battleship. Not everything in this game needs to be min-maxed.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Happster Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done? I've flown a mega loaded with void, and I've flown a geddon loaded with conflag. So ya, you don't know what you're talking about. Then stop saying AC's loaded with Hail has no probs hitting its target when you never have tried it.

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