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Dark Chasm The Legends Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:16:00 - [1] I know alot of ship been getting some lovin' and tbh, the tempest needs some. I doens't have a real good tank if u want some damage (which is still lower then almost every other bs) and if u do go full tank, the damage output is about the same as an average HAC. It's not that good for sniping either. it isn't that high on grid nor on cpu. The most painless way is to grant it an additional turret slot, and compensate by giving about 1000+ grid. (don't forget the republic/tribal version and the machariel pls) It will still be underpowered in damage output and so, but at least it can lash back on with the other bs's __________________________________________________________________ á Don't worry about your beard, when your head is about to be taken áá áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá- Sun Tzu, The art of War -
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:24:00 - [2] One more turret or one more lowslot. Or... or or or or or... you could make projectile weapons not suck. Seriously, the ship has a damage bonus and a rof bonus... this ship should be a dps monster. Right now those bonuses don't even keep it on par. Something is extremely wrong... And, not to steer this thread in the wrong direction or anything... but how is having weapons that don't take cap an advantage if all of hours ships have nerfed cap reserves anyways?
Clever Drake Minmatar Joint Operations Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:28:00 - [3] /signed
Insomnium Minmatar the united Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:29:00 - [4] machariel needs no boosting. though i admit tempest needs some loving. i cant tell how many times i've gotten into an engagement where the tempest is outperformed in many areas. everyone says the trick is to fight in fall-off, and in many cases its true, but the damage is subpar and normally cant break a competent player's tank. the solution might be to get in closer to get better hits, but then that puts me in range of the enemy's guns and well, lets just say armour tank or shields, you'll go down fast. if anything i say give the darn ship a dedicated tank. ------------------------------------ If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward
Linas IV	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:33:00 - [5] Edited by: Linas IV on 21/02/2008 14:35:16 I would really love to see a 7th turret on the Pest. (that would actually make useful for close combat) Even if the Tempest is still a decent fleet sniper, the introduction of scripts hurt it a lot more than the other BS. (because of the lowest scan res./range and poor tracking/optimal, it really needed tracking comps/SBs compared to the others like the Mega, Rokh or new Apoc) Fact is the Tempest (especially the Fleet issue) needs a boost even if the 7th turret maybe a bit too nice. ^^ Ps: No way for 7 Turrets on the Mach, it is one of the best faction ships as it is now.
Wardeneo Gallente BLL Wise Guys Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:34:00 - [6] tempest dont need no lovin, its a good ship..... If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:37:00 - [7] Edited by: Twin blade on 21/02/2008 14:39:12 The main problem with the Tempest is the fact the dev's made the maelstorm do the same role's only they made it with more mass so it has a harder time with range control but given the mega tank hardly a problem. I think the maelstorm should be changed to a fast light AC boat of death so the tempest can keep its Sniper role or make the tempest the fast light AC ship of death and let the maelstorm keep the sniper role. I don't think the added gun slot will change the tempest you will make it a better sniper than the maelstorm sure but most people will still use the maelstorm over it for the massive tank. Edit i think with the New apoc the tempest might stop been one of the main fleet sniper ships given the apoc's damage will be fine at that kind of range but a much higher rof so more kills sooner. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Saietor Blackgreen	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:41:00 - [8] All said is quite true. But the ship is a perfect representation of Matari shipbuilding paradigm. Agile, fast (faster than same ships of enemy), capless weapons, relatively low damage and tank, huge aplha of artillery. Its just BS class - the higher you go in ship size, the less welcome Matari shipbuilding philosophy becomes. Remember how bad lots of Amarr ships are in PvP, especially in roaming? One (ONE) of the reasons is that the whole idea of Amarr ships is hardtanking highdamage immovable thingie, which is bad in roaming. ut get to the level of capital ships - BAM! Thats exactly what you need, and Amarr carriers, dreads and supercaps are probably one of the best there is, while Matari ones pretty much suck big time. You can give Tempest more tank and/or gank, but it will turn it into Mega. This is boring. Thats an eternal fate of Matari - be versatile, but thus never best. Use your Tempest as a bigger Hurricane in spank-fit. ACs, HAMs (or torps?), MWD, shieldextenders, invu, 2 gyrostabs, damcon, mobility mods (nano-istab-over) + shield resistance rigs. Very mobile 600-700 DPS, 80K+ EHP creature, a great addition to any support fleet. Or use it as sniper, with T2 arties it will give a very nice alpha-strike in km sniping distances, and its mobility helps to align and warpout in time. Or use it as ratting ship hacking/arcsal cleaner, where it never shines, but always works. Versatility. Matari is not a race of specialists, unless you specialize in runaway.
Harum Skarum Minmatar Committee for Subversive Decoration	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:45:00 - [9] The Tempest really isnt that great. It used to be a good ship but T2 ammo, HP boosts, Nos nerf, scripts and EW module nerfs took away its versatility and its niche. The only reason to fly a pest now is that you either dont have the SP for a close range phoon or want a cheaper sniper than a Maelstrom.
Dark Chasm The Legends Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:28:00 - [10] Oh yes this is deffinately NOT a cry-out for minmatar. This is purely about the tempest. @saietor blackgreen: Matari is not a race of specialists, unless you specialize in runaway. Speciality is speed, which with good tactics can make quite an advantage. Every race has it advantages and disadvantages. The tempest shouldn't have megathron blaster damage, there are to many factors to compare blasters to ac's, not only on the gun but to the entire fitting of a ship. I'm just saying the tempest could do with an extra gunslot and it wouldn't overpower it at all just balance it compared to the rest. __________________________________________________________________ á Don't worry about your beard, when your head is about to be taken áá áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá- Sun Tzu, The art of War -
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:30:00 - [11] Would be overpowered. By a long shot. What we can ask to the tempest is better agility. Making it the most agile BS should give it some role. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
SirDanceAlot	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Would be overpowered. By a long shot. QFT
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:11:00 - [13] How bout you ppl do wth you are supposed to do and train missiles as well you picked the most skill intensive and imo best pvp race so dont whine suk it up and train all those skills you need to fly mixed weapon systems ships
Harum Skarum Minmatar Committee for Subversive Decoration	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:09:00 - [14] Since when is the Tempest a mixed weapon systems ship? Its a gunboat with 2 utility slots. It has a horrible tank and the damage output of a BC. Going marginally faster than other BS does not really outweigh that.
Xonkra Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:39:00 - [15] put a faction web on a pest and you got a kickass nanoship killer -2 heavy neuts -2x 18km web (13km ts web + overload) -425's (400 dps) -ecm drones neut the cap and mwd dash yourself in web range if they arn't in web range to start with. and grin as they melt. Originally by: Illyria Ambri No matter how you want to say it.. it always sounds like frog clearing throat "Ve zurrendur, dunt schuut"
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Wardeneo tempest dont need no lovin, its a good ship..... Wardeneo, do me a favor and undock in a Tempest for me. Oh, and make sure that this one doesn't have WCS. ;-) Anyway, barring the argument of "Minnie BS are SUPPOSED to suck", it probably does need somethng. ;-) -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wardeneo tempest dont need no lovin, its a good ship..... Wardeneo, do me a favor and undock in a Tempest for me. Oh, and make sure that this one doesn't have WCS. ;-) Anyway, barring the argument of "Minnie BS are SUPPOSED to suck", it probably does need somethng. ;-) -Liang My vote is for improved agility. Make it the best battleship to change directions and move around battlefield. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Dors Venabily	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:31:00 - [18] Edited by: Dors Venabily on 21/02/2008 18:32:11 Originally by: Harum Skarum Since when is the Tempest a mixed weapon systems ship? Its a gunboat with 2 utility slots. It has a horrible tank and the damage output of a BC. Going marginally faster than other BS does not really outweigh that. Gun slot 6, 4 launcher slots ,8 highs, has highest alpha or very close to it selectable dmg wth you want a abadon class tank on it :D Th above poster pointed on thing it could use more mobility i agree with that but more gun slots no way
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:33:00 - [19] Just after i was born a few years ago i longed for this ship...i saw this thing kick some serious butt in vids and what not and i really, really wanted to fly one of them one day. I don't anymore. Please make it right CCP. --------- I had something important to put here but CCP decided in thier infinite wisdom to keep this space as small as possible. Thanks.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:43:00 - [20] Maybe 7 turrets on a fleet tempest, but otherwise no, it would be overpowered.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:47:00 - [21] How about 8 turrets, a damage bonus, grid for 8 1400 Arties, and a velocity bonus.... -Liang -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!)
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren How about 8 turrets, a damage bonus, grid for 8 1400 Arties, and a velocity bonus.... -Liang that is called tribal Tempest ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Parsival Minmatar The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wardeneo tempest dont need no lovin, its a good ship..... Wardeneo, do me a favor and undock in a Tempest for me. Oh, and make sure that this one doesn't have WCS. ;-) Anyway, barring the argument of "Minnie BS are SUPPOSED to suck", it probably does need somethng. ;-) -Liang Don't be hard on Ward... he's too busy self-destructing Domi's outside station for the insurance ISKies to undock in a Tempest for you to pew pew. Anyway, flying Executioners 23/7 has given him a very deep understanding of BS mechanics in EVE Another low slot would be nice on the 'pest.
Mulletstation Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wardeneo tempest dont need no lovin, its a good ship..... Wardeneo, do me a favor and undock in a Tempest for me. Oh, and make sure that this one doesn't have WCS. ;-) Anyway, barring the argument of "Minnie BS are SUPPOSED to suck", it probably does need somethng. ;-) -Liang He used a double negative. Thus he agrees it needs some "lovin". Sure, his second statement contradicts that somewhat, but I'll ignore that and take it for a typo. P.S. This is not a request for anyone to use triple negatives. Just don't.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD Solidus Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 19:48:00 - [25] i love two remote reppers on my tempest either a tad bit more powergrid or, for more versatility, another slot (low or med, i don't mind). - putting the gist back into logistics
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:00:00 - [26] Im not a Temp pilot - but those Temps I've fought against sure knew how to rip things apart with those 6 guns... and using those 2 other hi-slots. Im sure most people could use a little more fitting for their tier 1 and 2 battleships, but in general people always want to fit a bit more than is good for the game. - I'm a nice guy!! But hook me up with some pew pew, because I'm really bored...
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:34:00 - [27] Originally by: Dors Venabily Edited by: Dors Venabily on 21/02/2008 18:32:11 Originally by: Harum Skarum Since when is the Tempest a mixed weapon systems ship? Its a gunboat with 2 utility slots. It has a horrible tank and the damage output of a BC. Going marginally faster than other BS does not really outweigh that. Gun slot 6, 4 launcher slots ,8 highs, has highest alpha or very close to it selectable dmg wth you want a abadon class tank on it :D Th above poster pointed on thing it could use more mobility i agree with that but more gun slots no way raven = 6 launchers 4 turret slots no one trains turrets for a raven though.
Sienna Blayze Bombshell Cartel	Posted - 2008.02.22 03:23:00 - [28] I agree - either more power-grid or another slot (any)
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.22 03:48:00 - [29] for the price, its fine as is. Its damage output is already outstanding, i think 7 turrets would definitely make it overpowering. (I have BS 5 in every race so dont call me a minmatar hater, i love them )
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:38:00 - [30] Originally by: IamBen for the price, its fine as is. Its damage output is already outstanding, i think 7 turrets would definitely make it overpowering. (I have BS 5 in every race so dont call me a minmatar hater, i love them ) Outstanding? It does less DPS than every other battleship in the game, (I just know some smartass is going to mention the Scorpion here) including the Typhoon.
Hans Angry Caldari AirHawk Alliance Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:32:00 - [31] Edited by: Hans Angry on 22/02/2008 06:32:42 /signed for the second post in the thread, and the main one too yeah, i was going to train up to use a pretty sick tempest, then i noticed that gallente did far more damage and well, guess where i am now Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:35:00 - [32] Rolling Minny I knew there BS's aren't king crap(:/). That said they have tyhpoon, the sp mobile. Tempest a solid fleet ship. The maelstrom the tweak ship. Minnys have a rp/ingame value to them which happens to be there balance.
Stork DK Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.02.22 07:46:00 - [33] Not too sure about another turret slot, but it definatly need either a Med or a Low slot. Your epeen is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 24" with the mass size not exceeding 24000 kilograms. If you would like to know how please mail [email protected]
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.02.22 08:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: IamBen for the price, its fine as is. Its damage output is already outstanding, i think 7 turrets would definitely make it overpowering. (I have BS 5 in every race so dont call me a minmatar hater, i love them ) Outstanding? It does less DPS than every other battleship in the game, (I just know some smartass is going to mention the Scorpion here) including the Typhoon. umm I am pretty sure it outdamages an apoc in close range stuff
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.22 08:44:00 - [35] Alot of this sounds abit like amarr gripes.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.22 09:17:00 - [36] a general boost in stats would be better, a 7th turret slot is prolly to overpowered. More cap, armour/shield HP, larger drone bay? just a couple suggestions...
Testpilot XY	Posted - 2008.02.22 10:20:00 - [37] Give the Tempest another turret and it will do more Turret damage than any other ship compare weapon damage (without drones): all ships with 3 x damage mods Tempest: 7x 800mm autocannons (Hail) 970 DPS; (Barrage) 760 DPS Raven: T2 siege launcher (rage) 990 DPS; (Javellin) 697 DPS Megathron: 7 x neutron blasers (void): 949 DPS; (Null) 745 DPS Abaddon: 8x mega pulses (conflag): 929 DPS; (Scorch) 730 DPS ...this would be way overpowert for capless weapons! and this: New Tempest: 7x 1400mm Artillery (Tremor): 369 DPS; 3800 alpha strike Rokh: 8x 425mm railguns (spike): 285 DPS; 1597 alpha strike Megathron: 7x 425mm rails (spike): 312 DPS; 1747 alpha strike Apoc: 8x Tachyons (Aurora): 357 DPS; 2600 alpha strike all ships with 2 damage mods I think the "new" tempest would be overpowert with arties too (more damage than most fleet ships; no cap use, best alpha)
NateX THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Testpilot XY Give the Tempest another turret and it will do more Turret damage than any other ship compare weapon damage (without drones): all ships with 3 x damage mods Tempest: 7x 800mm autocannons (Hail) 970 DPS; (Barrage) 760 DPS Raven: T2 siege launcher (rage) 990 DPS; (Javellin) 697 DPS Megathron: 7 x neutron blasers (void): 949 DPS; (Null) 745 DPS Abaddon: 8x mega pulses (conflag): 929 DPS; (Scorch) 730 DPS ...this would be way overpowert for capless weapons! aahhhhh okay, thats why they changed the siege launchers to use cap right?? R0ADKILL-killboard \| Give the tempest 7 turret slots!
Jeetah	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:22:00 - [39] /signed the OP (at least the Fleet issue needs it badly)
Testpilot XY	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:29:00 - [40] Originally by: NateX Originally by: Testpilot XY Give the Tempest another turret and it will do more Turret damage than any other ship compare weapon damage (without drones): all ships with 3 x damage mods Tempest: 7x 800mm autocannons (Hail) 970 DPS; (Barrage) 760 DPS Raven: T2 siege launcher (rage) 990 DPS; (Javellin) 697 DPS Megathron: 7 x neutron blasers (void): 949 DPS; (Null) 745 DPS Abaddon: 8x mega pulses (conflag): 929 DPS; (Scorch) 730 DPS ...this would be way overpowert for capless weapons! aahhhhh okay, thats why they changed the siege launchers to use cap right?? hmm.. Torpedos need target painters for full damage autocannons NOT (even against BS: 450m expl. radius for T1; and 540m for rage torps) fitting autocannos on a tempest is much easier than fitting siege launchers an a Raven... and yes passive tanked ravens are overpowert but that¦s no reason to do the same with the tempest
Spaced Skunk 9omH	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:38:00 - [41] Edited by: Spaced Skunk on 22/02/2008 11:39:04 I fly Minmatar and from first impressions and long term impressions of the ship, it doesnt need a 7th turret point. I can fit a shield tanked gank Tempest and (just throwing up my setup on EFT) I do 1207 dps, which when compared to the other tier 2 battleships, its about right. Now I think here in lies the problem, when you try to include a tank, electronics and weaponary on the ship. With only 6 lows its tank isnt too good, and it doesnt leave room for just a single gyro, and when compared to its other close range counterpart the megathron its outclassed in every single way apart from its speed. My suggestions to boost the ship: - Bigger drone bay (Possibly 125m3 bandwidth?) - More armour HP - Some more CPU I completely disagree with the 7 turrets, this suggestion is dream world material tbh, this would overpower it, and would make a MONSTER fleet ship. To Spawny, a great guy, a great laugh. Rest in peace buddy.
Julio Torres Phantom Squad Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:08:00 - [42] 7th turret on pest would make it overpowered with a good margin. Scan Resolution and Agility boost, would fit it perfectly. Make it the perfect BS for piracy/roaming
DennoTheHunter Caldari Kernkraft 400 R-I-P	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:21:00 - [43] Following EFT with max skills, using 800mm ac's with hail and siege launchers with Caldari navy torps, and fitting 4x gyros, the dps gain in replacing a siege launcher with an ac is only 75 dps. Hardly overpowered... _____________________ If I am in a fair fight.... Something went wrong!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:21:00 - [44] Nothing wrong with the standard Tempest imho. But the fleet one definitely should get that 7th turret. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:34:00 - [45] So basically we are all agreed that the Pest needs some sort of buff...just not a 7th Turret. I can live with that. There have been some good tweaks suggested in the thread...i like the agility or an extra low or med slot myself. Lets see if we can come up with something that everyone can agree on and see if it gets us anywhere with the Devs. --------- I had something important to put here but CCP decided in thier infinite wisdom to keep this space as small as possible. Thanks.
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:44:00 - [46] I hardly think it been the most powerfull turret battleship would make it overpowerd given how its got a weaker tank. Then you need to take in to account it will be in fall off around 95% of the time and so losing a fair ammout of damage i belive it would be balanced. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:44:00 - [47] Agility and Scan resolution!!! That is all we need! Would make tempest the prime pirate and roaming battleship. Something that would be great to add, sine we need to rescue the old times when we had roaming battleships, not only nano ships. Please CCP, this is ultra simple to do, 100% safe from creating any unbalance, and would make so many people happy. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:59:00 - [48] Well, it's not a horrible ship. But it can't compete with the other battleships in the tank/gank role. I kinda like the Tempest as it is. It's got those nifty utility slots and the room to fit em. Like the swiss army knife of gang warfare.
The crablitt	Posted - 2008.02.22 13:07:00 - [49] OK see heres what I think, the problem with DPS lies in with the actual autocannons. For instance compare all tier 2 battleships in relevance to thier theoretical gun/missile ammount (level 5 BS). With BS 5: Raven - 7.5 Apoc - 8 Megathron - 8.75 Tempest - 9.375 And there you have it, Tempest has the highest, now take drone bay into condideration, all but the Mega have 75m3 bandwitdt, so lets add slightly more to that mega gun ammount, say 9. However the tempest unlike the raven/mega has a very feasable ability to add launchers to its last highs (I hardly ever see ravens with guns in the last 2 highs, and I never see a mega with a launcher in the last high). Thus this Tempest argument should be switched to a large autocannons need boosting thread, because in my eyes it clearly not the ship.
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.02.22 14:54:00 - [50] Originally by: The crablitt OK see heres what I think, the problem with DPS lies in with the actual autocannons. For instance compare all tier 2 battleships in relevance to thier theoretical gun/missile ammount (level 5 BS). With BS 5: Raven - 7.5 Apoc - 8 Megathron - 8.75 Tempest - 9.375 And there you have it, Tempest has the highest, now take drone bay into condideration, all but the Mega have 75m3 bandwitdt, so lets add slightly more to that mega gun ammount, say 9. However the tempest unlike the raven/mega has a very feasable ability to add launchers to its last highs (I hardly ever see ravens with guns in the last 2 highs, and I never see a mega with a launcher in the last high). Thus this Tempest argument should be switched to a large autocannons need boosting thread, because in my eyes it clearly not the ship. Tiz what I've been saying. How can a ship with two damage abilities on it not even come close to the dps of a ship like a mega? It should NOT do more dps, it has capless weapons (although wtf is the point with our crapy cap?) but it should do a very similar amount of dps. Maybe the issue is with 800mm cannons. They give barely any dps advantage over 650s but are harder to fit and have cruddy tracking. We fight in falloff so maybe not change the damage on 800s but give them a +25 - 50% falloff bonus for using them. And I also have a problem with the 'we fight in falloff' bit. Battleships are just to heavy to kite our oponents successfully, especially when its a gang engagement and you are tackled. Staying at 25km on a target just is not as feasible as people make it sound on the forums. Also, we aren't remembering artillery. A good fleet setup for a pest gets about 160km optimal with about 45km fallof. Every other race has a ship that gets its optimal to around 190km. That means in the majority of fleet engagements these days a good fleet will be warping in at a range that makes the t2 fit, end-game, fleet sniper tempest completely obsolete. It has shorter targeting range so it needs to fit 3 sensor boosters that end up giving it a range far greater than its guns are even effective at and the mighty alpha that it once had is not only worthless with the hp buffs, but isn't even the best alpha anymore in the face some amarr ships. Again, we supposedly fight in fall off, so make the falloff on artillery twice what it is now so we can effectively compete in fleet battles without being laughed at for our cruddy range.
whoyoulookingat Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:10:00 - [51] Just change the current 5% Large projectile damage per BS level to: 5% Large Artillery Damage & 8% Large AC damage per BS level Stops the Arties from being overpowered & brings the AC's up to par. As we fight in falloff we never get the true DPS out of the AC guns that all the EFT warriors seem to keep spouting on about anyway! _____________________________________ Someone's swiped my avatar!!!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:14:00 - [52] This is funny actually. With ACs, the dps isn't even that bad, considering it is a capless weapon with some decent range potential (New torps notwithstanding, but I for one didn't ask for that boost and would not mind at all if they took it back). But with Arties, the dps is truely horrible, even for capless weapons. If anything needs a boost, it is large arties! There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Pavlinka Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:25:00 - [53] Wtih bosting Large ammo we will get boost to both. Arties and AC's too. So let's boost them just a bit and damage multiplier/rof on large arties... Pavlinka & Pavlinecka
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.02.22 16:38:00 - [54] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 22/02/2008 16:41:57 Ugh I don't understand why everyone is throwing the capless arguement every which way. Most peeps use cap boosters these days and ways AND minmatar ships have less overall capacitor BECAUSE the weapons don't use cap. What does this mean? We don't have enough cap to tank. Our guns' capless firing is balanced at the ship level by our ships having cruddy capacitors, why are they doubly balanced by having cruddy damage? Wait wait, another balance, we fight in falloff so we rarely ever even max out that crap damage anyways. So, our weapons get a perk and are balanced with three negatives? How is that fair? Lets suppose our weapons took cap. Would boosting all minmatar ships capacitors solve the problem? Nope. They still do awful damage now for seemingly no apparent reason. The fact that the guns are capless is more of a gimmick than actually 'omg you have such an advantage' benefit. Blasters = insane damage (and decent damage AND range with null) Pulse Lasers = optimal optimal optimal (45km without optimal bonuses!) Autocannons = uh, they don't need cap? Also, have you seen that joke of an ammo hail? Our guns don't need cap? To bad that LOWERS OUR CAP RECHARGE. So wouldn't that equate to the ammo taking cap? I'm not even going to mention the 3km optimal and 10km falloff of that joke of an ammuniton.
Pavlinka Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.22 17:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Trojanman190 ... QFT Pavlinka & Pavlinecka
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:22:00 - [56] Originally by: whoyoulookingat As we fight in falloff we never get the true DPS out of the AC guns that all the EFT warriors seem to keep spouting on about anyway! You know your fall off is already taken into consideration while determining AC dps balance. You know why you cant have exact same performance as lasers? BECAUSE ACS DONT USE CAP. Its balanced. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Testpilot XY Give the Tempest another turret and it will do more Turret damage than any other ship compare weapon damage (without drones): all ships with 3 x damage mods Tempest: 7x 800mm autocannons (Hail) 970 DPS; (Barrage) 760 DPS Raven: T2 siege launcher (rage) 990 DPS; (Javellin) 697 DPS Megathron: 7 x neutron blasers (void): 949 DPS; (Null) 745 DPS Abaddon: 8x mega pulses (conflag): 929 DPS; (Scorch) 730 DPS ...this would be way overpowert for capless weapons! This is wrong info! AC with Hail is not a capless weapon!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Happster Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Happster This is wrong info! AC with Hail is not a capless weapon! excuse me? what? I sugest you read up on the penalties on the Hail Ammo 1. No one uses hail 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:38:00 - [59] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Happster Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Happster This is wrong info! AC with Hail is not a capless weapon! excuse me? what? I sugest you read up on the penalties on the Hail Ammo 1. No one uses hail 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Lasers dont really use conflag and blasters dont use void, what else is new. Youre not the only race with crap T2 ammo. Thats no argument. Its still a capless weapon. If you get neutralized it doesnt matter if youre cap recharge is 1 cap per 1 year you can still fire your guns. Anywhere outside fantasy land that is a CAPLESS WEAPON. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:47:00 - [62] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. No, many minmatar ships have MORE cap then amarr ships if you count weapon cap usage, even at max skills. It is an advantage. Hint: Look at the inties for example. Count in cap usage of guns and then compare capless with cap using weapons. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:48:00 - [63] Anyway this is bull****. Missiles don't use cap. Torpedoes don't use cap. Drones don't use cap. And yet all these ships have more capacitor than minmatar ships, more range or more damage.
eve warrior Minmatar Filthy Scum Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Maybe 7 turrets on a fleet tempest, but otherwise no, it would be overpowered. signed
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:50:00 - [65] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. No, many minmatar ships have MORE cap then amarr ships if you count weapon cap usage, even at max skills. It is an advantage. Hint: Look at the inties for example. Count in cap usage of guns and then compare capless with cap using weapons. Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Nasta443 Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking? Stiletto with MSE? I think you definately picked the wrong race. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:06:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Nasta443 Are interceptors the best example you can give to attempt to back your argument? A stiletto that can't kill a fly and a claw that is quite lacking? Stiletto with MSE? I think you definately picked the wrong race. What the hell are you talking about picking the wrong race? And a stiletto with a MSE? Lol go on and try it I'm sure you will get a lot of neut/web love when closing in to shoot stuff with your lol damage. So basically because you fit a MSE on a stiletto and it can shoot while neuted, suddenly minmatar ac's are superior. Hahahahaha. For all that lovely range that minmatar ships tend to depend on, do you know what you can't use when you are neutered? MWD. Do you know what happens when you can't use it? We get you in web range. Do you know what happens when we do? You get raped. So compare getting raped with your supposed situation of not being able to shoot anymore. Minmatar capacitors being superior because they use autocannons is a very bad joke.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Nasta443 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 2. Just because youre using Hail doesnt mean that your weapons can cap you out, wich can be the case for lasers and blasters: So no, AC HAIL DOESNT USE CAP. Give minmatar the same cap as amarr and gallente ships and THEN you can say they have an advantage. BUT THEY HAVE FAR LESS CAP TO START WITH SO ITS LIKE THEY HAVE ALREADY USED ALL THE CAP FOR FIRING. Armageddon base: 5312, typhoon base: 5000 Maelstrom base: 6000, Abaddon base: 6300 300 cap is enough to fire one volley. You must be delusional to think the "cap advantage" of amarr exists on anything except your imagination. Minmatar and caldari have more cap to work with on all their ships, why? Because their weapons dont use cap and the difference in capacitor size between ships of the same class is minimal compared to the cap usage of lasers and hybrids.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.23 00:24:00 - [69] Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid. See, originally, Hail had a speed penalty on it. This was removed 1 year ago. At that point, Hail become awesome. Then faction ammo was made readily available. Then Hail was meerly "good". Then nothing changed. Then it was now Welcome to now, hail is good.
AstroPhobic Minmatar Primero.	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:34:00 - [70] 7th turret might be much, but another mid/low would be lovely. Abaddon class tank is a joke, there's no powergrid with a full rack of 1400s, and you need a PDU to fit THAT. A midslot tank would mean you can only hit/lock to about 120 with tremor, and would be pathetic. And yes, Autocannons are sub-par. 800s with hail is hardly comparable to neutrons with void/am s. The tracking is nothing beautiful and range is ugly ugly. Going into falloff, combined with tracking of hail, there's a very noticeable DPS loss. Not to mention the whole "capless" weapons arguement fails because minmatar cap is ugly ugly. The natural regen from other battleships' large capacitors almost negates the fact that their weapons use cap. Not to mention that when cap regen mods/rigs are applied to those ships, the arguement just goes completely down the toilet. I'm not asking for something huge, but the tempest does lack power for a double damage BS.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Gamesguy Armageddon base: 5312, typhoon base: 5000 Maelstrom base: 6000, Abaddon base: 6300 300 cap is enough to fire one volley. You must be delusional to think the "cap advantage" of amarr exists on anything except your imagination. Ok look at it with more detail then. First its around 400 and not 300 with l5 skills. If you think they are irrelevant why not make it the same on both ships. The geddon has 8 lows in exchange of the 4 mids of the phoon. It has 1465 points of armor more which is 21% more than the phoon which is 20 seconds worth of a lar that roughly cost 710 cap, and thats without even taking into account rigs. So at the moment you are about 1100 ahead in cap. 7 mega pulse iis are -24.7 cap per second, so thats 45 seconds of "free" firing. Now most likely the geddon will be plated instead of repped so it has all the cap in the world for shooting or neuting. And the phoon has to decide whether it wants to play passive tank vs a ship that has 21% more natural armor, or play active tank when it has a lot of trouble fitting a heavy injector and 2 lars. Or fit a medium capacitor injector and run out of cap before getting to the 3 mins mark. Or fit two injectors and forget about the ab at all. Or fit a fitting mod on the lows. Doesn't it seem like the geddon has less cap troubles than the phoon, as long as the geddon doesn't try to force the ship into an active tank?
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:43:00 - [72] Edited by: Nasta443 on 23/02/2008 01:43:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid Or maybe maybe it is because hail reduces your falloff by 50% dropping you straight into web range with even 800mm turrets? What was this thing I keep reading about range? Ah the hell with it because unless you web the other guy and you are webbed too you won't hit it anyway. Oh and hail + tracking disruptor? lolololololol
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.23 01:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Nasta443 Minmatar capacitors being superior because they use autocannons is a very bad joke. But its the truth -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:01:00 - [74] Originally by: Nasta443 Ok look at it with more detail then. First its around 400 and not 300 with l5 skills. If you think they are irrelevant why not make it the same on both ships. Because I'll take any advantage I can get? Quote: The geddon has 8 lows in exchange of the 4 mids of the phoon. It has 1465 points of armor more which is 21% more than the phoon which is 20 seconds worth of a lar that roughly cost 710 cap, and thats without even taking into account rigs. And the phoon has 110 more dps than the geddon with both ships using no dmg mods, and the phoon has 4 mids, is faster, has spare drones, etc. Quote: So at the moment you are about 1100 ahead in cap. 7 mega pulse iis are -24.7 cap per second, so thats 45 seconds of "free" firing. Thats with no heatsinks. 45 seconds of firing vs a ship that can fire forever with no cap? What you expect every fight to be over in 45 seconds? Where is the amarr cap advantage moron? Quote: Now most likely the geddon will be plated instead of repped so it has all the cap in the world for shooting or neuting. And the phoon has to decide whether it wants to play passive tank vs a ship that has 21% more natural armor, or play active tank when it has a lot of trouble fitting a heavy injector and 2 lars. Or fit a medium capacitor injector and run out of cap before getting to the 3 mins mark. Or fit two injectors and forget about the ab at all. Or fit a fitting mod on the lows. Phoon's passive tank is far superior to the geddons, because it doesnt have CPU problems with fitting eanm, and it doesnt have to fit damage mods due to its 8 bonus weapon slots+5 heavy drones. Fitting a cap injector is basically conceeding there is no amarr acp advantage, since the first time you inject an 800 charge the whopping 400 cap difference is negligible. Its hilarious how hard to try and come up with ways to make minnie ships seem bad. I'd take a phoon up against a geddon anyday, and there is practically no way for the geddon to win. Quote: Doesn't it seem like the geddon has less cap troubles than the phoon, as long as the geddon doesn't try to force the ship into an active tank? Why would the phoon have cap troubles? It only uses cap for mwd and point/web. Only ******s active tank the phoon, the thing is a plated monster because you can dedicated all 7 lows to tanking.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:03:00 - [75] Originally by: Nasta443 Edited by: Nasta443 on 23/02/2008 01:43:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid Or maybe maybe it is because hail reduces your falloff by 50% dropping you straight into web range with even 800mm turrets? What was this thing I keep reading about range? Ah the hell with it because unless you web the other guy and you are webbed too you won't hit it anyway. So ***** what? You gonna dictate range with a geddon and AN MF? Or a mega with CN AM? Minnie ships(on the bs level anyways) stay out of web range because it lets them run away and disengage if things turn bad. Its a luxury, not a right. You want to do the same dps as everybody else? Then go in web range like everybody else. Quote:** Oh and hail + tracking disruptor? lolololololol This is different with blasters and pulse how?
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.02.23 02:31:00 - [76] The Tempest is not a bad ship. The Tempest got all of its roles nerfed. HP boost pretty much nerfed Tempest alpha capabilities. Introduction of the Maelstrom gave a very nasty no-tackling crazy shield tank + ganking autocannon machine of death. Typhoon with new torps make an excellent passive armor tanked machine, hurricane gives 6 turrets of death in a cheap package so yeah the auto-pest has a lot of competition in the short range minmatar combat area now. Tempest can do a lot of things pretty well but can't do one thing the best. It can do a lot with those 2 extra high slots, large neuts, smartbombs, torps, cruise, drone link aug, cloak, remote rep, etc. The tempest is a good ship, I'm sure any tempest fit you can EFT warrior a better fit with a different BS but that doesn't mean the ship is terrible, it just has no direction. Another slot or turret hardpoint would be too much, a better buff would be a tiny bit more cpu/grid or maybe some more speed or agility.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.02.23 03:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaal Erit Another slot or turret hardpoint would be too much, a better buff would be a tiny bit more cpu/grid or maybe some more speed or agility. Another slot would be stupidly overpowered, but moving some slots around wouldn't. I'd like to see the tempest and typhoon slot-layouts swapped, with the tempest getting 8/4/7, and the phoon getting 8/5/6. I would fly BOTH these ships more if such a change were to occur; the tempest as a big tank with the advantage of utility high-slots, and the phoon as a no-tackle gang ship with an HP shield tank and DPS out the ass.
George Benson hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.23 04:34:00 - [78] Uhmm... It can use 6 projectile guns with +25% RoF AND +25% damage bonus. Additional room for 2 large launchers or smartbombs. Bandwidth for 4 heavy drones. Can you find another battleship with such good damage potential? Projectile guns do not have the DPS to make this ship overpowered, it simply just makes the ship good. It's not the ship, it's the guns. So yeah, my 2 cents.
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2008.02.23 04:51:00 - [79] Originally by: George Benson Uhmm... It can use 6 projectile guns with +25% RoF AND +25% damage bonus. Additional room for 2 large launchers or smartbombs. Bandwidth for 4 heavy drones. Can you find another battleship with such good damage potential? Projectile guns do not have the DPS to make this ship overpowered, it simply just makes the ship good. It's not the ship, it's the guns. So yeah, my 2 cents. WTB Tempest with 4x heavy drones. Yes I can find plenty of battleships with good damage potential, like the torp raven, blaster mega, typhoon, geddon, domi... Mainly it sucks having 2 bonuses to a weapon and only fitting 3/4 of your high slots with that bonused weapon. Not really unbalanced but ugh everyone other race gets 7 turrets/launchers on their gank boats so minmatar ships get really jeaous.
George Benson hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.23 05:40:00 - [80] Originally by: Vaal Erit WTB Tempest with 4x heavy drones. My bad, 3.
Crackpipe2000	Posted - 2008.02.23 06:32:00 - [81] just a silly question: all talk about them big smackin' alphas and dps and whatever, ok, but at what range? And no no, minmatar philosophy doesnt work in small ships either. For example stiletto is the minnie ceptor of choice cuz it got exceptional electronics capabilities, and on another hand claw is flown only by either newbs or the hardcore extreme ppl. But i guess claw doesnt represent minnie philosophy that much better cuz its not agile and fastest neither, but atleast it got crappy electronics laughs and points at the 17km locking range But still we go on.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 09:49:00 - [82] Edited by: Happster on 23/02/2008 09:50:09 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Happster If no one use Hail, why use Hail as the mesurment on how much dps the AC do Maybe theres a reason why ppl dont use Hail? uh? If Hail do affect your cap, it do turn AC's in to cap guns. I know, its not the same as with blasters nor lasers. But still, to say it use nor affect Cap at all is flat out lie. Its because people are stupid. See, originally, Hail had a speed penalty on it. This was removed 1 year ago. At that point, Hail become awesome. Then faction ammo was made readily available. Then Hail was meerly "good". Then nothing changed. Then it was now Welcome to now, hail is good. EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Aynway... Comparing the pest to mega and other 7 low slots BS is like meh. You use hail and 3 damage mods in low to figure out the dps it can spit out. 1. Hail dps is teoretical and will never ever happen. Even if you got max skills, your guns do miss when using Hail. 2. You take away 3 of a total of 6 low slots, leaving only 3 slots left for tank 3. I havent dont the math comparation on this. But, if a 800 gun only does 76 more dps then a launcher if we would get 1 extra turret slot. I wouldnt say that would be so overpowered at all. Espesially as the 76 extra dps will be less when not using 3 gyros. Torps doesnt use cap :P Remember, if you do wish to fit some sort of tank, you need your PG.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:12:00 - [83] Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:17:00 - [84] Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Dray Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me. IMO changing the pest to 4/7 and the phoon to 5/6 would be perfect.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:25:00 - [86] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Dray Edited by: Dray on 23/02/2008 10:17:23 I think 7th slot might be too much, for me a better option would be to define the tank on a ship to ship basis, sure let them do both but tie it down to one type per ship. Ive said before that the high shield hp's on ships that have more low slots is a bit dumb, give it another low for a mid and armour tank or another mid for low and shield tank, but not higher shield hp and more lows, just reeks of stupidity for me. IMO changing the pest to 4/7 and the phoon to 5/6 would be perfect. Sounds good, dont foget to switch the shield and armour hp on the tempest tho
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:51:00 - [87] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:56:00 - [88] Originally by: Happster Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done? I've flown a mega loaded with void, and I've flown a geddon loaded with conflag. So ya, you don't know what you're talking about.
Jalmari Huitsikko Caldari Karjala Inc. Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:59:00 - [89] Tempest is fine ship. 6 "primary" type weapons is perfectly in line with other tier 2 battleships. Pest is good with both autocannons and artillery, it can also pretty much armor tank or shield tank. Could you possibly have better ship for its price? Use the remaining 2 high slots for neutralizers, cloak, salvager, tractor beam, probe launcher, light missile launchers, drone range enhancers... you name it. It's not popular ship because it sucks. It doesn't have 8 high slots just so you would fill them all with autocannons for maximum gankage. It has 8 high slots so you have 2 free slots for something else than guns! If you want 8 turrets use maelstorm, it's tier 3 minmatar battleship. Not everything in this game needs to be min-maxed.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 10:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Happster Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: EMP were used over HAIL long before the faction ammo came to town. Reason? Tracking. HAIL has some bad tracking penalties, and it wont take much movement to make our guns miss when fitted with hail. Say you do 100 dps, but your tracking using hail is so poor that it makes you miss half of the time. This makes you end up with a dps like 50. If emp would then have dps = 80, but no penalties....wouldnt you use emp instead? And pretty pretty please dont get stuck on the numbers. It was a bloody example to make a point. Erm no? Autocannons have no problem tracking their size targets, especially webbed. If blasters used void, and pulses used conflag, autocannons with the best tracking of all of them can certainly use hail. The tracking crap is just bull****. LOL...have you ever flew a BS loaded with HAIL, and then had a look at your combat log when batle were done? I've flown a mega loaded with void, and I've flown a geddon loaded with conflag. So ya, you don't know what you're talking about. Then stop saying AC's loaded with Hail has no probs hitting its target when you never have tried it.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 11:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Happster Then stop saying AC's loaded with Hail has no probs hitting its target when you never have tried it. What magical property of autocannons and hail makes harder to hit with it then blasters with void? Answer that or stop trolling.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.23 11:25:00 - [92] Edited by: Wrayeth on 23/02/2008 11:25:32 There are rules against cross-posting, so I'll just put up a link here to My Proposed Tempest Changes instead of the full text. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 16:14:00 - [93] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Nasta443 Ok look at it with more detail then. First its around 400 and not 300 with l5 skills. If you think they are irrelevant why not make it the same on both ships. Because I'll take any advantage I can get? Ok, so there's an advantage there. Quote: Quote: The geddon has 8 lows in exchange of the 4 mids of the phoon. It has 1465 points of armor more which is 21% more than the phoon which is 20 seconds worth of a lar that roughly cost 710 cap, and thats without even taking into account rigs. And the phoon has 110 more dps than the geddon with both ships using no dmg mods, and the phoon has 4 mids, is faster, has spare drones, etc. You are forgetting that the phoon will almost not fit any damage mods due to its 4/4/ split weapon system while the geddon probably will. And that the extra mid over the geddon goes in favour of the geddon if only due to the lack of pg of the phoon and its hard time fitting a heavy injector. Plus you don't need a web at all on the geddon if you don't want to fit it Quote: Thats with no heatsinks. 45 seconds of firing vs a ship that can fire forever with no cap? What you expect every fight to be over in 45 seconds? Where is the amarr cap advantage moron? Insulting people is something you do when you are cornered in an argument? So you'll still complain about cap problems if damage mods didn't stack and you filled your lows with them? Above you were implying that the phoon had a dps advantage without damage mods. Now you might be saying that geddons usually fit damage mods. Guess you just defeated your previous comment then. Quote: Phoon's passive tank is far superior to the geddons, because it doesnt have CPU problems with fitting eanm, and it doesnt have to fit damage mods due to its 8 bonus weapon slots+5 heavy drones. It's not that it doesn't have to fit damage mods. Its that it rationally can't. Putting in a damage mod that will only affect 4 hard points is not a light decision to make. And its drones make no difference as the ship have no damage bonus so why bring them up in this context. Saying that the geddons passive tank is superior to the phoon is just sad. Quote: Fitting a cap injector is basically conceeding there is no amarr acp advantage, since the first time you inject an 800 charge the whopping 400 cap difference is negligible. It's 1100 as I previously mentioned, and you don't need cap for anything else. Quote: Why would the phoon have cap troubles? It only uses cap for mwd and point/web. Only ******s active tank the phoon, the thing is a plated monster because you can dedicated all 7 lows to tanking. Ah, I see you have retired your magical damage mods for the phoon. I also see you don't mind throwing to the bin the so touted speed advantage thanks to the plates and the rigs. But, since the phoon has no cap troubles as you say, neither has the geddon. Saying that the geddon's passive tank isn't as good as the phoon when adding 3 heatsinks, that is ridiculous.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 16:19:00 - [94] Originally by: Gamesguy Minnie ships(on the bs level anyways) stay out of web range because it lets them run away and disengage if things turn bad. Its a luxury, not a right. You want to do the same dps as everybody else? Then go in web range like everybody else. Lolzorz. You're so funny. Because I hope you weren't attempting to be serious. Because in that case you'd be even funnier. Quote: Oh and hail + tracking disruptor? lolololololol This is different with blasters and pulse how? Go calculate the tracking on a td turret with hail for starters.
Nasta443	Posted - 2008.02.23 16:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Jalmari Huitsikko Tempest is fine ship. 6 "primary" type weapons is perfectly in line with other tier 2 battleships. Pest is good with both autocannons and artillery, it can also pretty much armor tank or shield tank. In other words its good at neither. Quote: Could you possibly have better ship for its price? Yes, the dominix. Tier 1 too. Or the megathron if you insist in tier 2 armor or raven if you want tier 2 shield. Any of these will laugh at a tempest. Originally by: Jalmari Huitsikko Use the remaining 2 high slots for neutralizers, cloak, salvager, tractor beam, probe launcher, light missile launchers, drone range enhancers... you name it. It's not popular ship because it sucks. You said it.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.02.23 16:49:00 - [96] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 23/02/2008 16:49:24 Originally by: Nasta443 Plus you don't need a web at all on the geddon if you don't want to fit it Give me some of that ganja please. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.02.23 17:44:00 - [97] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Originally by: Vaal Erit Another slot or turret hardpoint would be too much, a better buff would be a tiny bit more cpu/grid or maybe some more speed or agility. Another slot would be stupidly overpowered, but moving some slots around wouldn't. I'd like to see the tempest and typhoon slot-layouts swapped, with the tempest getting 8/4/7, and the phoon getting 8/5/6. I would fly BOTH these ships more if such a change were to occur; the tempest as a big tank with the advantage of utility high-slots, and the phoon as a no-tackle gang ship with an HP shield tank and DPS out the ass. Wow great so you plan to make the phoon a worthless battleship again to make the tempest good. Simple Fix if you plan to mess with slots is to make the tempest a 8/6/5 or maybe even a 8/7/4. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.02.23 23:18:00 - [98] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You simply cant have capless weapons doing same amounts of damage at all ranges as their cap-using counterparts. Your weapons are also stupidly easy to fit. You cant have it all. Minmatar is not about having the best guns that perform like pulses/blasters or having the meanest tank. Its all about you being versitile, fast and agile. Maybe you did train the wrong race if gank is the only thing that youre instrested in. Because all these threads are about giving minmatar more gank power. The only realistic boost a tempest will see is an agility boost. Where would a discussion of the Tempest be without the amarrian contingent weighing in? Many people stated that the boost to hitpoints was a bigger nerf to minmatar weapons than to others due to their lower DPS. However CCP chose to walk down this path anyway. Any changes to Minmatar weapons/ships must be carefully examined least the overall balance of the game get disrupted. Seriously, the Tempest does not need a 7th turret, it would be grossly imbalanced. AC's do not need a boost less they perform better on non-minmatar ships. Having played when minmatar weapons used cap, the fact that they are capless isn't that big a difference (they never used the amount of cap other weapons did). However, I am in the very rare position of agreeing with Lyria (on some things, Artillery isn't easy to fit). The Tempest has the same exact agility as the Megathon and the Hyperion, but nowhere near the same DPS or tank. It is slightly worse than the phoon, but slightly better than any Amarrian or Caldari ship. It should get a slight agility boost,(say raise inertial modifier by 20% to .186 which is still over 5 times less agile than a battlecruiser), or nerf the Mega and the Hype. This would make it the most agile battleship and give it it's own speciality. Other changes I would make, 1) Swap the shield and armor values on the phoon, I believe the current setup is CCP's idea of a joke, 2) Add a seventh turret to the Fleet Tempest (to make it special). I know some people claim that "x" race's battleships are skill intensive, but no race's battleships require as many different maxed skills as Minmatar. When you have Armor, Shield, Navigation, Cap, Projectiles, Torps, Cruise, Heavy Drones and fitting skills maxed, Minmatar battleships can hold their own.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.23 23:54:00 - [99] Stop with this useless discussion about ACannons! You know Tempest wil never ever get a 7th turret! Focus on discussing realistic option for boostign it! Changing slot layout WONT happen, or it will just mimic the machariel. The only things you can expect and ask are changes on the ship attributes. S start discussing really sueful and possible stuff. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 23:58:00 - [100] Originally by: Nasta443 Lolzorz. You're so funny. Because I hope you weren't attempting to be serious. Because in that case you'd be even funnier. Concession accepted troll. Quote: Go calculate the tracking on a td turret with hail for starters. Autocannons have better tracking than pulses and blasters, so tell me again, what magical property of hail makes it worse than blasters with void(which was extremely popular pre-faction ammo)? God you're stupid.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.24 00:09:00 - [101] Originally by: Nasta443 Ok, so there's an advantage there. I'd much rather have phoon's speed/agility/mass advantage over the whopping 300 cap. Quote: You are forgetting that the phoon will almost not fit any damage mods due to its 4/4/ split weapon system while the geddon probably will. And that the extra mid over the geddon goes in favour of the geddon if only due to the lack of pg of the phoon and its hard time fitting a heavy injector. Except if the geddon fits any damage mods it has a worse tank compared to the phoon. In addition, why in the hell would you fit a heavy injector on a ship that only uses cap to mwd in range and web/disrupt? Medium injector is all you need, hell, you dont even need an injector. Quote: Plus you don't need a web at all on the geddon if you don't want to fit it Phoon doesnt need to either, it just does because its advantageous. Quote: Insulting people is something you do when you are cornered in an argument? Red herring. 1100 cap is 45 seconds of firing, which is not an advantage because every fight with a BS lasts longer than 45 seconds unless its 20v1 or something. Quote: So you'll still complain about cap problems if damage mods didn't stack and you filled your lows with them? Above you were implying that the phoon had a dps advantage without damage mods. Now you might be saying that geddons usually fit damage mods. Guess you just defeated your previous comment then. You stated that the geddon passive tanks better, which is completely false because geddon always fits damage mods and has massive problems with fittin EANMs. Phoon does less dps than a geddon with 2-3 HS, but it has a superior buffer, better speed/agility, capless weapons that still fire even if you're neuted to nothing. 4 mid slots, plus damage flexibility/better damage types. If I had to pick between a phoon and a geddon, I'd take the phoon. Quote: It's not that it doesn't have to fit damage mods. Its that it rationally can't. Putting in a damage mod that will only affect 4 hard points is not a light decision to make. And its drones make no difference as the ship have no damage bonus so why bring them up in this context. Because 5 heavy drones+ replacements/utility drones is an advantage however you cut it? The reason the geddon is good is not because of its guns, but because it can fit 5 heavy drones. Quote: Saying that the geddons passive tank is superior to the phoon is just sad. Thats exactly what you said, and its false unless the geddon fits no damage mods. Quote: It's 1100 as I previously mentioned, and you don't need cap for anything else. Umm what? How about firing the guns? Quote: Ah, I see you have retired your magical damage mods for the phoon. I also see you don't mind throwing to the bin the so touted speed advantage thanks to the plates and the rigs. Where did I ever state the phoon fitted damage mods? Learn to read? And yes the phoon still have a speed advantage over all the other plated BS. Quote: But, since the phoon has no cap troubles as you say, neither has the geddon. Saying that the geddon's passive tank isn't as good as the phoon when adding 3 heatsinks, that is ridiculous. Geddon needs a medium injector to run its guns, the phoon does not. Of course the geddon's buffer isnt as good as the phoon because it NEEDS to fit heat sinks to compete. In order for the geddon to get the same paper dps as the phoon, it needs at least 1 HS. After which point the phoon has an extra mid, no problems with CPU(unlike the geddon), is faster, has capless weapons, and has superior damage type/damage type flexibility.
kessah Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.24 00:19:00 - [102] Edited by: kessah on 24/02/2008 00:21:53 As a tempest enthusiast i rarly used hail, the main reason is you always had barrage loaded, reloading in a fight is tricky u drop dps and compared to a torp raven, geddon or mega you generally comit to what you have loaded be it Void, Caldari bane torp, or AN MF. The tempest relies on falloff, barrage does as much dps as t1 emp, Tempest users are generally armour tanked, 6 slots to field a competant tank and with little room for dmg mods. This was never a problem in the past, but as CCP changed the game the older bonuses and setups on the oldest ships in the game changed, Mega's are now plated, as are geddons and Ravens now use... well i duno what they use, and neither care :) But the point is, the Tempest 'Versatility' is now its own downfall, it cannot effectively plate and should never be plated, it can active tank, but has a smaller cargo bay so burns through 800's faster if u utilise its 5th mid for a med cap injector like i do. There are many things you can do with it, but none as well. The tempest most definetly needs something, but i hope CCP will use the same guy they had change the Apoc, because it needs that kinda thinking, not to change it into something we already have within the race. The Tempest could use imho a general boost to its active tanking ability. There are many avenues to go down with the Tempest: Larger cap amount. Higher base regen. A harder sensor strength. Faster base speed. An Apoc type role, where hail could effectively be used with larger falloff. Without it sounding like a 3rd bonus, perhaps. 10% to dmg per level & 5% to falloff. Hitting high alpha's and larger falloff's, the rof would be cripping but with it hitting out larger distances its ability to keep range like an Apoc it could effectively be that med range battleship we lack in EvE. edit: actually perhaps 5% falloff isnt enough, 10%? i remember the typhoon having that bonus once, perhaps it is better suited the the Tempest now with how EvE is today.
Yakov Draken Minmatar Tides Of War	Posted - 2008.02.24 04:06:00 - [103] re Hail I fly a Tempest, I have many kills with it, alot of chances to compare damage of different types, and to see how I match up to the Mega's in our gangs in terms of % damage. Hail is good in extended fights vs most armor tankers (ie not t2 Amarr). Barrage is great in short ones fights vs same and faction EMP is sweet vs shields. You can say Hail sucks all you want but most BS gang fights are short range slug feasts where the target is multi webbed such that even BC's will get pwned by Hail L. Pods on the other hand can be hard to hit. I agree with those arguing that the Tempest is somewhat underpowered but still useful. I like the idea's of more agility, scan res and or drone bay. 7th gun slot would be overpowered.
Dark Chasm The Legends Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.05 00:15:00 - [104] getting a bit off topic. This is not about what other ships can or cannot fit. This is also not about the phoon or the armageddon. This is about the tempest. It's extremely diff to compare any ship I'll give y'all that. Cap/grid/lows/meds/highs/range/tracking and so on. All I'm saying is the tempest is just a little behind on the other tier2 bs. Maybe it's better to grant a 7th turretslot WITHOUT adding grid, so a 7th 1400mm will be damn near impossible (6 is already not easy) but that u can fit a 7th AC for shortrange combat, in which it lacks. __________________________________________________________________ á Don't worry about your beard, when your head is about to be taken áá áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá- Sun Tzu, The art of War -
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.05 01:03:00 - [105] 7 turret tempest ftw!!!! part of jokes tried to play a bit with graphs and it will be still pretty balanced speaking about ACs its small drone bay will keep its overall dps lower than megas/hype and even the tankage will be worse than on these ships hype with similar slot allocation will have + tank + dps (by a good margin on comparable setups) - cap (even if cap is not anymore a huge issue due to nos nerf) mega will have + tank + dps + tracking - cap - "utility" mid slot to me seem overall pretty balanced considering that both gall ships will get more drone versatility (heavy ecm drones ftw) and range depends by ammo used, hail range is pretty poor for example. it can be a problem if devs will even boost arty (yes i live in dreamworld) to make it balanced to other long range, then 7 1400mm can become a problem, so i agree that it should not get additional pg, but of course only if arty get a much needed dmg boost Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Natalia Kovac Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.05 04:13:00 - [106] Switch the 5th mid to the low rack. Increase agility/speed/decrease mass. ??????? Profit.
Happster Polaris Project	Posted - 2008.03.05 08:18:00 - [107] Originally by: Natalia Kovac Switch the 5th mid to the low rack. Increase agility/speed/decrease mass. ??????? Profit. Doing this would turn the Fleet Tempest in to the Machariel, just without the tracking bonus the Machariel has. Profit? Think not!
Orakkus	Posted - 2008.03.05 17:47:00 - [108] Edited by: Orakkus on 05/03/2008 17:52:11 Edited by: Orakkus on 05/03/2008 17:50:41 A minor solution (edit: thought it was an original idea, but I remembered that someone thought about this a long while back): For every level of Minmatar Projectile Skill, you reduce the time it takes to reload by 1 second for that weapon class (i.e. Large for Large, etc.) That way you get more DPS (but not terribly more.. in fact I think someone already did the math on this a while back), as well as the ability to truly utilize Damage type DPS which Minmatar are supposed to specialize in. Oh, and in Eve, the 10 to 20m/s speed bonus to Minmatar battleships means nothing when everyone carries a MWD or AB into battle, so its not even worthy of mention.
Volir Deep Space HVAC	Posted - 2008.03.05 19:27:00 - [109] I don't mind the Tempest so much as the maelstrom. Really the maelstrom is horrible. The main reason is that active shield tanking does not work in pvp; those midslots are too valuable for other mods. With the shield bonus, the maelstrom should be a natural AC ship, but you have to choose whether to tank or tackle (unlike armor tanking ships, e.g. typhoon). Compare it to the hyperion, for example. As a sniper, the shield bonus is useless and turns the maelstrom into an expensive Tempest. So, for close range, use a typhoon or a tempest. For sniping, use a tempest. To fix the maelstrom, you can do one of two things. The preferable solution is to make active shield tanking worth a damn in pvp. The other solution is to change the Maelstrom's bonus to something useful.
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.05 20:10:00 - [110] I'm a total Tempest user over the other 2 Minmatar BS. Comparing it to the other tier 2 BS, I feel it's kind of neglected: poor dps, poor tank, not that great alpha. From all the propositions I've seen by now in this thread, Kessah's seems the most balanced one and also in line with the Minmatar philosophy: more gank, less tank. So, keep nearly the same dps, give let's say +10% more damage per level and +10% more falloff per level. It's Kessah's ideea. Giving it a 7th turret will make it totally overpowered.
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.05 21:00:00 - [111] 7/6/6 slot layout is my vote, with a speed and agility increase. This turns the tempest into a versatile gunboat with a significant manuverability advantage over the maelstrom. The extra mid means that it can fit a weak shield tank with overdrives+gyros in the lows to accentuate it speed advantage or it can fit an armor tank like now and use the spare mids to fit ewar (new TDs anyone?). This also improves it as a sniper. A year ago, the extra high slot was very valuable, and mids generally better than lows, so the tempest was a fantastic ship due to the plethora of things it was capable of doing with one fit. Those days are past, but a simple slot change brings this back a bit. To me, the tempest represents minmatar more than any other minmatar ship. Why not make this the epitome of the versatile, fast minmatar ship? Shield or armor tank? Check Speed and manuverabiltiy? Check Versatile fitting options? Check
Dark Chasm The Legends Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.08 12:07:00 - [112] I'd be happy with 7.5% RoF rather then 5% (remember that's less then 2.5% damage increase since the reload will have to be incorperated in the calculation of DPS) @Tearavygh Quillam: 10% per level makes 50% damage bonus in the end. an extra gun is + 1/6 damage which is 16.67% extra damage, but that's overpowered ? math is not your strong suit m8. @Ort Lofthus: it's possible but then you'd still need 7 turret slots....it would be one hell of an interesting ship layout I grant you that, 6low, 6med and 7 high.....hmmmmzzz __________________________________________________________________ á Don't worry about your beard, when your head is about to be taken áá áááááááááááááááááááááááááááááá- Sun Tzu, The art of War -

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