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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:51:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous...
How about making pos less important instead of more ?
Because most of people ******ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance.
In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap.
DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:57:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous...
How about making pos less important instead of more ?
Because most of people ******ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance.
In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap.
You see, eve is a lot like WWII...
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Fire Hawk
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 16:59:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous...
How about making pos less important instead of more ?
Because most of people ******ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance.
In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap.
You see, eve is a lot like WWII...
I don't see what WWII have to do with titan+jammer issue. Explain please.
DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:00:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Fire Hawk
Originally by: Yorda
Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13
Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous...
How about making pos less important instead of more ?
Because most of people ******ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance.
In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap.
You see, eve is a lot like WWII...
I don't see what WWII have to do with titan+jammer issue. Explain please.
My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:02:00 -
[125]
Oh wait, did that make sense? my bad.
Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
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maralt
Minmatar The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:05:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Yorda
My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun.
I remember something about that but i do not remember the guys in the trenches giving up and crying about it or god reaching down and nerfing the machine guns either.
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rValdez5987
Amarr Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:06:00 -
[127]
You need to remember something that was said by ccp hammerhead if im not mistaken.... that the python code only allows for one cpu to be used even if you have 8.
Where is this relevant? Lag. having another 7 cpu's would undoubtedly reduce much of the lag your having due to titans and the large fleets needed to counter them.
Second fix would be to make it so that the doomsday in general can only be used every 30 minutes, and its SYSTEM WIDE.
That means if RA's titan sets of a doomsday in one of their home systems, another titan from RA in their homesystem cannot use its doomsday until the original titans doomsday timer is done.
end result: 1 doomsday per titan, per alliance. The rest of the titans would be support.
However, that is just the way I would do it to make the whiners happy.
My main point titans are fine. they dont need adjustment, they aren't invincible, and they are very expensive. Since when does having 20-40 titans in game mean they are the next battleship?
They can be blown up over the course of a fleet battle easily, but it takes 3 months to build them, not to mention the parts, bpc, isk....
My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances.
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KIATolon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:07:00 -
[128]
Originally by: rValdez5987 You need to remember something that was said by ccp hammerhead if im not mistaken.... that the python code only allows for one cpu to be used even if you have 8.
Where is this relevant? Lag. having another 7 cpu's would undoubtedly reduce much of the lag your having due to titans and the large fleets needed to counter them.
Second fix would be to make it so that the doomsday in general can only be used every 30 minutes, and its SYSTEM WIDE.
That means if RA's titan sets of a doomsday in one of their home systems, another titan from RA in their homesystem cannot use its doomsday until the original titans doomsday timer is done.
end result: 1 doomsday per titan, per alliance. The rest of the titans would be support.
However, that is just the way I would do it to make the whiners happy.
My main point titans are fine. they dont need adjustment, they aren't invincible, and they are very expensive. Since when does having 20-40 titans in game mean they are the next battleship?
They can be blown up over the course of a fleet battle easily, but it takes 3 months to build them, not to mention the parts, bpc, isk....
So, you think titans should be changed, but not changed.
...Thanks for this.
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rValdez5987
Amarr Killed In Action The Crimson Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.10 17:18:00 -
[129]
Edited by: rValdez5987 on 10/03/2008 17:18:35 I suggested changes, even though I think they are fine.
Part of being a mostly unbiased party is both showing my true opinion and providing feedback that is constructive.
Its like one of those situations where, you dont want something to change but you provide some recommendations for change if it does.
My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances.
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John McCreedy
Caldari Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 18:03:00 -
[130]
I can't find the thread to quote it but someone suggested whacking Cyno Jammers with the nerf bat. This idea has merrit on the surface but dig a little deeper and you'll start to see problems. Yes, the combination of multiple Titans plus Cyno Jammers is a problem but what about the Alliances that claim space but don't have a Titan? By nerfing or indeed removing Cyno Jammers, you immediately skew the balance of Eve towards the Titan holding Alliance. Furthermore, without the Cyno Jammer as it is today, how could any non-Titan owning Alliance ever hope to keep up in the arms race by building their own?
Mulitiple Titans in Cyno Jammed systems are a problem but the problem isn't the Jammer. The problem is, as the original poster alluded to, that multiple Titans should never of been allowed to happen. I'm certain CCP would be the first to admit they grossly underestimated the build costs of these ships because anyone who has read EON issue 1 with the interview with Oveur, he clearly states Titans are (where) supposed to be the Centerpeice to an Alliances fleet, not the fleet itself.
Increase the cost of a Titan significantly and implement the idea of disabling the Jammer for X amount of time if a DDD is used and you aproach the problem from an angle that doesn't penalise the smaller Alliances.
Make a Difference
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Cursive
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 18:14:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons.
With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak).
What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence?
It's all a big conspiracy to take Concord out and make all pubbies our slaves. This is just another piece to the Hulk massacre puzzle.
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Sentinel Eeex
Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 18:25:00 -
[132]
Fact that any capital or supercapital ship can get inside a cynojammed system is pretty silly.
Or fact that cynojammer keeps working on a reinforced POS...
Or fact that it's easy to kill/reanchor another cynojammer...
Or fact that such an important module uses so little resources... I mean, I need CPU to open a cyno (either on my ship, or with cynogen module on a POS) - why cynojammer wouldn't need CPU in order to prevent a cyno? Wtf CCP?
Jumpbridges should not allow capital ships (that require cyno to jump anywhere) to get into cynojammed systems. Then one side can camp 1 cynojammed system all day long, while another side will have a go at the cynojammer in another system.
But as it is now, defending fleet will jumpbridge itself to 2nd cynojammed system faster than attackers can get there.
Attackers should at least get some sort of reward for being able to incapacitate cynojammer, and put the cynojammer POS into reinforced. Cynojammer should stop working until POS is back to 50% shields, and module repaired. It should not be possible to repair it (and online it) or kill it if underlying POS is reinforced - make it possible to kill module (hull damage) only if POS is gone. Make it unanchorable only if it's not damaged, and POS is not in reinforced.
But at the moment, you just kill the module (which takes way less time than incapacitating it) and anchor/online it somewhere else.
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Graalum
Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.03.10 18:48:00 -
[133]
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Yorda
My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun.
I remember something about that but i do not remember the guys in the trenches giving up and crying about it or god reaching down and nerfing the machine guns either.
they invented the tank and started using airplanes.
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Dave Borland
Einherjar Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:03:00 -
[134]
Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:08:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Dave Borland
Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance.
Hai guys, let's limit each system to a maximum of 1 titan and 100 assorted other ships per system PER SIDE!
I really do like that idea, I really do, because that means 1:1 odds.
And I don't think anyone wants to fight us on those odds :) Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Krall Amarr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:09:00 -
[136]
imho the main problem of supercapital proliferation is:
eve price not follow isk inflaction, 3 years ago was hard make a titan becouse was more hard make isk, now is relatively easy make 50bl for make a titan, than we have many.
Eve need a recalibration of cost, like patch +25% hp all ship, now +25% or more cost for make all tipology of ship, or is inevitable have 100+ titan for 2009. Eve price (include npc price) not follow evolution of game, make today 1bl is 300% more easy than 2 years ago.
A little example when i was on lv and i fly bs sniper t2, a hyperion full t2+rig cost 400ml, a single 425 rail t2 cost 15ml !!! now? an hyperion+ fitting and rig cost less than 200ml (HALF in 1,5 year)
Half cost, + now is more easy make money.
Chowdown not have say something wrong. I think like him: eve build cost need a recalibration for follow current isk system. CCP need to do something for keep this tipology of ship "rare" or is normal who have 10+ titan become invulnerable.
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Dangerously Cheesey
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.10 19:57:00 -
[137]
The big mistake was doomsdays to be honest. The weapons on virtually every other ship in the game (with the exception of smart bombs and bombs, both of which have huge restrictions because of the obvious power of aoe weapons) are bound up in the rules and balancing of the sig radius/sig resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/transversal complex mechanics that allow ships to easily hit ships larger than they are but make hitting smaller, faster ships difficult. These are the mechanics that encourage diverse fleets and ensure that small ships will always be needed to protect big ships and vice versa.
Titans throw that all out the window with the doomsday and thats the big problem.
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Yaay
Dum Spiro Spero
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Posted - 2008.03.10 20:04:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons.
With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak).
What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence?
The only reason for the large influx in super capitals is due to the huge nap fest for 8 months that benefited ever alliance who was really undeserving of having said ships.
With the war now ending, and a lot of action starting up north, I think you'll see the Supercap proliferation slow considerably and lots more titans/mommas die. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID |
Xtreme Wrath
Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 20:51:00 -
[139]
Seems to me that a logical solution to the problem of titans might be to elminate the DDD completely... Set bonuses and such so that the titan is to a dread what a mom is to a carrier... per se.
let it have more HP than dreads (of course... its a titan for christs sakes), services, the jump bridge thingy and all and let it shoot like dreads do.
If you have to have teh uberz DDD then fine instead of the whole damn grid going poof... make it a bit like a smartbomb with falloff where the further you are out of the optimal, the less damage you get hit with to the point where the upper limits of the falloff hit with very minimal dmg. make it reasonable as well like maybe 30-40km or something (10opt+20-30 falloff).
Chuck Norris uses a live rattlesnake for a condom. |
John McCreedy
Caldari Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:05:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: Dave Borland
Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance.
Hai guys, let's limit each system to a maximum of 1 titan and 100 assorted other ships per system PER SIDE!
I really do like that idea, I really do, because that means 1:1 odds.
And I don't think anyone wants to fight us on those odds :)
You'd be suprised and you might be on to something there. Assign each ship a logistics point and each system have a hard cap on x amount of logistics points. It'd certainly add a new strategic layer to Fleet Combat. It'd solve a lot of problems including lag issues.
Make a Difference
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Scavok
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:09:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Scavok on 10/03/2008 21:11:06
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: KIATolon
Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed.
I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed.
I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle.
You have to give the defender an advantage though. If they can build, fuel, move and muster 30 motherships then it SHOULD be hard as nails to break, imo... if not impossible. And if that can be applied to more than one system (and I don't think any group has that many ms, even) then more power to them.
Economic power does have to count for something, after all.
Seriously, faction deathstars with gunners aren't advantageous enough? You need 40 specialized fit battleships to take a jammer down at one of them when they have NOTHING but gunners, look at BoB's attempts in FSW (not properly fit) or GS attempts in FAT (only had 20-30 BS on the first 2 attempts) for examples.
An active gang defending a well set up POS is extremely challenging, but there's still a slight possibility for the attacker to succeed under some circumstances, or at the very least have a chance at killing SOMETHING that can kill them. Bring a few capitals or a couple supercapitals to defend them and the game becomes incredibly stupid very quickly.
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Betha keid
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:37:00 -
[142]
WOW 5 pages... sooo when is ccp going to reply?
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Scavok
UA Industry Red Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.10 21:47:00 -
[143]
Originally by: John McCreedy I can't find the thread to quote it but someone suggested whacking Cyno Jammers with the nerf bat. This idea has merrit on the surface but dig a little deeper and you'll start to see problems. Yes, the combination of multiple Titans plus Cyno Jammers is a problem but what about the Alliances that claim space but don't have a Titan? By nerfing or indeed removing Cyno Jammers, you immediately skew the balance of Eve towards the Titan holding Alliance. Furthermore, without the Cyno Jammer as it is today, how could any non-Titan owning Alliance ever hope to keep up in the arms race by building their own?
Mulitiple Titans in Cyno Jammed systems are a problem but the problem isn't the Jammer. The problem is, as the original poster alluded to, that multiple Titans should never of been allowed to happen. I'm certain CCP would be the first to admit they grossly underestimated the build costs of these ships because anyone who has read EON issue 1 with the interview with Oveur, he clearly states Titans are (where) supposed to be the Centerpeice to an Alliances fleet, not the fleet itself.
Increase the cost of a Titan significantly and implement the idea of disabling the Jammer for X amount of time if a DDD is used and you aproach the problem from an angle that doesn't penalise the smaller Alliances.
Have you ever seen what just 20-30 remote repping carriers/ms and a token support fleet can do to a battleship fleet of any size? It simply isn't possible to kill without your own capitals. The amount of DPS required to break a remote repped carrier tank with subcapitals requires huge numbers of people; huge numbers of people create lag, people can't reload or warp in lag, and this means carriers turn into invulnerable killing machines. It's really not much different than going up against multiple titans, albeit it's slightly less frustrating since it requires the defender a few more people and a token amount of coordination to make your fleet completely impotent.
Increasing the cost of titans would only do what you're worried about. The big alliances all already have titans so it would just unfairly make it harder for the small alliances to ever catch up.
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Piratejoe
54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:20:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Piratejoe on 10/03/2008 22:29:18 One possible solution might be for new non-capital ships that can create a special field that either makes those inside its field immune or offers great immunity too a titans doomsday. This would enable fleets too have a chance when enganging Titans around POS's.
Thx
Edit: On second thought perhaps something like how a Basilisk works. The Special ship targets one ship per high slot and makes that ship immune. So one anti-doomsday ship can make 4-6 ships immune but not a whole fleet.
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Maraleith
The Culture Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:33:00 -
[145]
The issue is the immense destruction a Doomsday Device causes as it means that multiple titans are unbeatable in a cyno jammed system, with small support.
There are two ways to go about fixing the problem; nerf doomsdays, which I really don't think is the right way to go as too many people have invested too much into these ships.
The other is to add in a class of ships that scare titan pilots. I would like to see pocket-dreadnaughts, which are basically a marriage of a dreadnaught's siege mode with a battleship (Tier three).
Immense DPS, great tanks and tracking which means they can only kill a titan or capital ship. Then by all means put 4 titans on grid; against 20 pocket-dreadnaughts and 100 bs - interesting fights will ensue.
The cost of a pocket-dreadnaught should be about the same as a Marauder or Black Ops battleships as a guide and the only capital part needed is the capital Siege Mount.
You cannot change the water level. So don't redesign the bridge, just change the cars that can use it.
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:40:00 -
[146]
Titans have been a stupid idea since day one.
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Piratejoe
54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:43:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Titans have been a stupid idea since day one.
I disagree, their fine however CCP didnt think of the Titans + Cyno Jammers + Doomsday combo. They simply need too add a option out their that can counter this while not nerfing everything into the ground.
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.10 22:54:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Piratejoe
Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Titans have been a stupid idea since day one.
I disagree, their fine however CCP didnt think of the Titans + Cyno Jammers + Doomsday combo. They simply need too add a option out their that can counter this while not nerfing everything into the ground.
The idea of one click destroying an entire fleet is utterly flawed.
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Vincognito
Incognito Inc
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:01:00 -
[149]
The solution is simple....
Get rid of the DD and BUFF the titans with more mobile base capabilities and make them true mobile stations.
So if an alliance has 10-20 Titans it just means they have more ways to move and support there military in a large way.
Death to the DD because you can't balance something that is the extreme of warfare options.
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Von Zarovick
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.03.10 23:05:00 -
[150]
If anything, titans need a boost, they are roleless atm.
But otherwise, nice ships =)
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