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Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:53:00 - [1] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons. With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak). What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence?
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:56:00 - [2] I thought you'd be too pr0 here to click the wrong button _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:58:00 - [3] Originally by: thoth foc I thought you'd be too pr0 here to click the wrong button Not sure what happened really but I fixed it
Kendar Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:00:00 - [4] Titan are the new bs \o/ ccp we need bigger ships to kill the titanblobs please
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:01:00 - [5] Lets not, I think it's perfect time now to let them be. And don't touch those bloody cynojammers for christs sake :) --- "Cutting Edge 4 Life"
Howling Jinn Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:02:00 - [6] how many in total now? 20-30?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:03:00 - [7] Can you explain that Fred0? How do you see 0.0 warfare in a year with the current trend to get more titans in every alliance?
Chowdown Gallente Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:05:00 - [8] Lets not have a mad talk about tians getting nerfed, lets simply make them 10x more expensive ...... everyones happy
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:07:00 - [9] Originally by: Malachon Draco Can you explain that Fred0? How do you see 0.0 warfare in a year with the current trend to get more titans in every alliance? A total stalemate where defending is relatively easy and a succesfull assault takes an extraordinary amount off planning, blobbing and perfect execution. I feel we're perfectly poised to thrive if that's what happens :) --- "Cutting Edge 4 Life"
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: Malachon Draco Can you explain that Fred0? How do you see 0.0 warfare in a year with the current trend to get more titans in every alliance? A total stalemate where defending is relatively easy and a succesfull assault takes an extraordinary amount off planning, blobbing and perfect execution. I feel we're perfectly poised to thrive if that's what happens :) Is it just about thriving or also about having fun? From a partisan point of view I can understand why you might like the current state of affairs (though one could also find arguments in the opposite direction I'm sure), but do you think it is good for the game when it becomes nigh impossible for anyone to capture a 0.0 system as long as the other side has 3+ titans, and soon we will see 10+ I bet on a side). Aside from the partisan viewpoint, which we could argue about all day, is it really good for the game?
thetwilitehour Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:14:00 - [11] Titans don't seem to be inherently imbalanced in and of themselves, a properly set up BS can tank a DD, jump bridges are useful for sending in fleets and logistics. Multiple titans begins to become a problem, especially when combined with cynojammers and jump bridges. The biggest problem, when attacking an alliance holding a titan is the issue with Titans that was occuring before: they are nearly invincible, a no-risk defensive tool that destroys enemy fleets with ease. So the equation needs to be changed from titan^n + cynojammers. A couple of possible solutions seem available. Doomsday use disables cynojammer, possibly for an hour, or two hours, or 4 hours. This removes the no risk fleet destruction option, meaning any bs fleet attacking a cynojamer may well be bait, and the defenders have to ask if its worthwhile pushing that button, instead of 15 BS lol Boom. Doomsday use disables doomsday use on grid or perhaps in the entire system for some timer, perhaps 1 hour, 2 hours or 4 hours. This way titans dont back up each other into invincibility. Instead they become a very effective smartbomber + logistics tool. Other, less easy options might include disabling cloaking devices on titans, and possibly disallowing them from going into POS, giving ships damaged by a doomsday a doomsday proof timer (that ship is already _doomsday_) creating a bs sized module that gives 75% resists but only vs doomsdays, or eliminating pos warfare from the game.
Don ZOLA Caldari Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Howling Jinn how many in total now? 20-30? im afraid that number is bigger, since even those whose existance is known are not the only ones. there are plenty of them which are not shown up yet on all sides.
Kendar Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:17:00 - [13] yeah Zola have 5 personal titans afaik
Rudi Storm SGL	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:19:00 - [14] So lets see. DMC had both Cyno jammers and Titans and lost its space in a few days. Guess it all depends on the people in the Alliance itself more then on the tools. If Titans would really be that deadly as you mention DMC would still be there...
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:21:00 - [15] Edited by: Fred0 on 10/03/2008 10:23:46 Originally by: Malachon Draco Aside from the partisan viewpoint, which we could argue about all day, is it really good for the game? I don't know if it's good for the game. I just play the game and try to mould my alliance into being as good as possible with the help of others. Sometimes you strike a goldmine like we had with the nanobs, they were so much fun it was incredible and then they got nerfed. We all just have to play the game the way it's balanced and try to excel in it. Anything else is wasting energy ;) And to explain further. We think we're solving the Jammer / Titan problems and with time we'll be able to attack them better. I'd like us to keep working on that just like we work on any other game balancing issue to take it to our advantage ;) --- "Cutting Edge 4 Life"
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:22:00 - [16] It's not so much titans per se, it's titans plus cynojammers creating an impenetrable defense. More specifically, it's the doomsday device. Which has got to be CCP's greatest balance *******, which is saying a lot. Go back to the drawing board on titans, strip out the DDD, turn it into something like the moving station it was originally supposed to be.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/03/2008 10:24:56 Originally by: Rudi Storm So lets see. DMC had both Cyno jammers and Titans and lost its space in a few days. Guess it all depends on the people in the Alliance itself more then on the tools. If Titans would really be that deadly as you mention DMC would still be there... Having a titan doesn't guarantee survival, hell, titans in the hands of alliances who cant use them properly aren't a problem. Its when alliances that know how to use them get 15 of them and can doosmday every 4 minutes, good luck taking down one of their cyno jammers without capitals. POS spamming woudnt help either as theres no way for attackers to defend their poses if their fleet gets nuked every 4 minutes. Originally by: torN Deception Go back to the drawing board on titans, strip out the DDD, turn it into something like the moving station it was originally supposed to be. Yes please -----
Don Z0LA Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Kendar yeah Zola have 5 personal titans afaik i know where you hide yours!!!1!!! :P
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Rudi Storm So lets see. DMC had both Cyno jammers and Titans and lost its space in a few days. Guess it all depends on the people in the Alliance itself more then on the tools. If Titans would really be that deadly as you mention DMC would still be there... I guess some things even a titan can't save And small alliances can still be overrun I guess. But if you look at the likes of RA/MM/BoB, and I bet that you could add quite a few more alliances to that if they all have 10+ titans. Which I expect will happen before the end of 2008 for several alliances at least.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Kendar yeah Zola have 5 personal titans afaik Has one for each of the ladies in his sig. -- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:31:00 - [21] Edited by: Reacz on 10/03/2008 10:31:27 My dream is a Titan for every man, woman and child of the Empire!
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Reacz Edited by: Reacz on 10/03/2008 10:31:27 My dream is a Titan for every man, woman and child of the Empire! Now how the hell are we going to get that done if the Goonies keep blowing up all the resource harvesters? -- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Rudi Storm So lets see. DMC had both Cyno jammers and Titans and lost its space in a few days. Guess it all depends on the people in the Alliance itself more then on the tools. If Titans would really be that deadly as you mention DMC would still be there... I guess some things even a titan can't save And small alliances can still be overrun I guess. But if you look at the likes of RA/MM/BoB, and I bet that you could add quite a few more alliances to that if they all have 10+ titans. Which I expect will happen before the end of 2008 for several alliances at least. Maybe a better option would be to make alliances actually fight alone.. I dont see the problem with strong alliances being able to defend an area.. As everyone has seen when that area is too big, even the strongest alliance (yes, i mean BOB) pulls back.. Strong alliances have always been able to defend themselves, why should this suddenly need to change? The coaltion object to the fact that simply massively blobing someone doesnt automatically mean they win.. i think that is GOOD design.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Shaitis Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:50:00 - [24] Yeah lets kill all the titans tommorow. "What is funnier ? 20 Matari slaves pinned to one tree or 1 Matari slave pinned to 20 trees ?"
Ventro69 Caldari Manson Family SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:51:00 - [25] Edited by: Ventro69 on 10/03/2008 10:51:30 Untill CCP sorts out the lag, they can stop making plans for new ships/mods/nerfs/techs. Fleet fights often involve 300 people in system and the server can't handle it, bottom line. Stop planning ways for noobs to fit Caracals without a CPU and start finding ways for us to have 100 vs 100 gangs without crashing.
Ozstar Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:52:00 - [26] Its an interesting topic, i believe more and more alliances are putting a larger percentage of their GDP in to super capital production. Im not sure where this is leading, but its an exciting time to be a diplomat.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:52:00 - [27] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Rudi Storm So lets see. DMC had both Cyno jammers and Titans and lost its space in a few days. Guess it all depends on the people in the Alliance itself more then on the tools. If Titans would really be that deadly as you mention DMC would still be there... I guess some things even a titan can't save And small alliances can still be overrun I guess. But if you look at the likes of RA/MM/BoB, and I bet that you could add quite a few more alliances to that if they all have 10+ titans. Which I expect will happen before the end of 2008 for several alliances at least. Maybe a better option would be to make alliances actually fight alone.. I dont see the problem with strong alliances being able to defend an area.. As everyone has seen when that area is too big, even the strongest alliance (yes, i mean BOB) pulls back.. Strong alliances have always been able to defend themselves, why should this suddenly need to change? The coaltion object to the fact that simply massively blobing someone doesnt automatically mean they win.. i think that is GOOD design.. How would you make alliances fight alone? Practically, I see no way how to achieve such a thing, even theoretically, without creating huge loopholes to be exploited. And even if it were, wouldn't it just lead to even bigger blocs. I'd imagine a big round of mergers until we only had 3 or 4 entities left if you can't bring any allies.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:54:00 - [28] Originally by: thoth foc Maybe a better option would be to make alliances actually fight alone.. I dont see the problem with strong alliances being able to defend an area.. As everyone has seen when that area is too big, even the strongest alliance (yes, i mean BOB) pulls back.. Strong alliances have always been able to defend themselves, why should this suddenly need to change? The coaltion object to the fact that simply massively blobing someone doesnt automatically mean they win.. i think that is GOOD design.. I'll consider fighting bob alone when I see bob do it. Of course I reserve the option to turn recruit every pvper from the coalition into GF first... then bring in a few additional corps for extra measure.
Mark Syrus Gallente Crimson Shadows Scalar Federation	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:12:00 - [29] wow..the whining continues..didnt we just nerf titans. lets end this bandwagon before it gets started. oh noess bob has 8 titans, and MM has 5 the game is being ruined..../me screams and runs for the hills. honestly, in this game we move forward and adapt to the mechanics of the game. if that involves using 10 titans to have some fun and protect your space so be it. they are not an I win button...but if you are so worried about getting wtfpwnd by your enemies titans..pick a new enemy? send your t1 gang to someone elses space? go back to the drawing board? 2008 = year of the blob therefore 2008 will also be the year of the anti blob machine (multiple titans). so you can either adapt and come up with new strategy to kill or work around the titans..or you can build one yourself? is that the issue...you dont have the iskies for a titan and want to complain about it? in 1 year we will have more members in game which means larger fleets, and bigger blobs...get used to the direction or get run over by it. /me waves at malachon ---------------------------------------------- Mark Syrus Founder/CEO of Crimson Shadows
Calliphora Vomitoria Auriga inc	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:22:00 - [30] To me titians are the best thing ever, I just cant wait till the first alliance has the 35 or so needed to insta pop a fleet of carriers and dreds. At this point pvp will be the best the game has ever seen. Cyno jammers, death stars, and now posses letting ur pilots avoide travelling through blockades have unleashed the best side in all pvp pilots.... Im sure we are on a win win thing to alot of folks going,, "wtf am I playing this for" when the ego factor of it all shrinks down. Perhapse Im just getting old but very little of what I see looks like its designed to get people out and about, much more, u must stay in wait for the call to have a pvp moment, and when u get it it will be a gank, or a poss or a cyno jammer :( to some extent its the players but give them jump drives, dds and death stars and they will be used, give them tools to create a bit more fun and everyone wins. perhapse this can be solved with a bigger weapon, one that kills all but titans, or even another titin if u super dd first, then everybody will undock I am a blue Fly, I like eating apon ur corpse, is that really so bad?,
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:23:00 - [31] Originally by: Malachon Draco How would you make alliances fight alone? Practically, I see no way how to achieve such a thing, even theoretically, without creating huge loopholes to be exploited. And even if it were, wouldn't it just lead to even bigger blocs. I'd imagine a big round of mergers until we only had 3 or 4 entities left if you can't bring any allies. I'd remove alliances abilities to set standings.. ofc they can work together "seperately" but it would make group fleets more difficult.. making caps & super caps more vulnerable in weaker alliances.. this will result in bloated larger alliances and eventually internal explosions.. As ASCN discovered, bloated alliances still dont automatically fair well against smaller alliances.. (not meant as a flame, but genuine example) (there are other parts ofc, but this isnt game dev forums, and most the ppl reading this arent worth explaining more too) _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Local Her0 Minmatar La Mancha Corp	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:24:00 - [32] 4 titans in a lagged out cynojammed system hit you for total eve character deletion. PS could windy ****s pls point out all my typing errors ty
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:25:00 - [33] hehe i see no rproblem.. the more titans are ingame the more likley it is one will fall Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
Bobbechk Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:28:00 - [34] Cynojammer limited to sov 4 Done
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons. With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak). What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence? I have too agree that the way things are going eventually we will all need to be flying capital ships to avoid getting insta popped from multiple DDD titan fleets. I think that day is almost if not here now and maybe a solution would be to either limit the ammount of titans in a single system or perhaps instead of having the DDD timer set for an hour per titan have it set per system so no matter how many titans you have only 1 DDD can be launched per grid or even per system per hour. Flame away........
Calliphora Vomitoria Auriga inc	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:40:00 - [36] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons. With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak). What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence? I have too agree that the way things are going eventually we will all need to be flying capital ships to avoid getting insta popped from multiple DDD titan fleets. I think that day is almost if not here now and maybe a solution would be to either limit the ammount of titans in a single system or perhaps instead of having the DDD timer set for an hour per titan have it set per system so no matter how many titans you have only 1 DDD can be launched per grid or even per system per hour. Flame away........ Say bob or Ra goons donst matter who, hold space long enough u wont want to be outside staion unless ur in a super cap..... its coming. I am a blue Fly, I like eating apon ur corpse, is that really so bad?,
Local Her0 Minmatar La Mancha Corp	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:40:00 - [37] Originally by: maralt I have too agree that the way things are going eventually we will all need to be flying capital ships to avoid getting insta popped from multiple DDD titan fleets. Flame away........ How do you get your capships into a cynojammed system again?
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:40:00 - [38] Edited by: Scavok on 10/03/2008 11:41:39 I'd say the south is in a total stalemate, and only some of the north and drone regions where newer alliances are have the slightest chance of ever changing hands. It won't be much longer until the last of those alliances are either killed off by the established alliances or get themselves sorted. Boring, honestly. This is solely due to jammer's and not so much titans. I mean yeah, you bring subcapitals against 4 titans and you may as well just log out and find a game you can actually play. But a subcapital fleet against a subcapital fleet with 20-30 carriers/ms is going to have the same result as the 4 titans every single time with no exception (At least with the current state of lag. If you could actually warp, lock, activate guns, or reload within 15 minutes in a fight of this scale then things might be different). Jammers just need a serious beating with a nerf bat. They should just be something you leave on in your back systems so someone can't jump 30 dreads in and reinforce all your POS in your production heartland. Not the crux for defense so capitals can ***the ** out of helpless subcapitals
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:42:00 - [39] Edited by: maralt on 10/03/2008 11:43:27 Originally by: Local Her0 Originally by: maralt I have too agree that the way things are going eventually we will all need to be flying capital ships to avoid getting insta popped from multiple DDD titan fleets. I think that day is almost if not here now and maybe a solution would be to either limit the ammount of titans in a single system or perhaps instead of having the DDD timer set for an hour per titan have it set per system so no matter how many titans you have only 1 DDD can be launched per grid or even per system per hour. Flame away........ How do you get your capships into a cynojammed system again? I thought this was the "multiple titan issue" thread not the cyno jammer thread.
Johan Moisander Caldari Black Panther Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:43:00 - [40] ITT: sweet salty tears. this is the opinion of me personally and not my alliance/andorcorp
Centauris Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:46:00 - [41] Everyone else has them now not just bob. It just wouldnt be ccp if they didnt nerf them now tinfoil Thundercats 4 Life
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:56:00 - [42] Originally by: maralt I thought this was the "multiple titan issue" thread not the cyno jammer thread. Multiple titans aren't an issue without cyno jammers.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:01:00 - [43] Originally by: Scavok Originally by: maralt I thought this was the "multiple titan issue" thread not the cyno jammer thread. Multiple titans aren't an issue without cyno jammers. Maybe not now but this thread is about alliances having 20 then 30 then 40 or even more cos the only thing that could survive that many DDD's is a MS or another titan.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:02:00 - [44] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Scavok Originally by: maralt I thought this was the "multiple titan issue" thread not the cyno jammer thread. Multiple titans aren't an issue without cyno jammers. Maybe not now but this thread is about alliances having 20 then 30 then 40 or even more cos the only thing that could survive that many DDD's is a MS or another titan. its a nice way to win EVE ^^ Quote: CCP Chronotis Amarr boost is coming in a future dev blog, lets keep this on topic
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:08:00 - [45] cynojammer, shredder pos and being able to do multiple double doomsday every hour. It is a combination that is very painful for the attacker. The titan should have a role that require it to be on the battlefield for extended periods of time. It should be the centerpiece in long fleet battles , not the ship that ends the fight with everything either dead or warped out. Problem is that with recent changes they will only be deployed in fights where the owner is sure to win, even if they are changed to give it a more sensible role on the battlefield. My prediction is that nearly all doomsdays will be fired in cynojammed systems by titans in pairs. . you'll never jump alone
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:10:00 - [46] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Scavok Originally by: maralt I thought this was the "multiple titan issue" thread not the cyno jammer thread. Multiple titans aren't an issue without cyno jammers. Maybe not now but this thread is about alliances having 20 then 30 then 40 or even more cos the only thing that could survive that many DDD's is a MS or another titan. Well the game as it is now is already broken with the current number of titans+cyno jammers. Obviously CCP will be forced to nerf the DD eventually, but it's not to that point yet. Babysteps.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:14:00 - [47] In my opinion the introduction of Caps/Super Caps should have ended with the introduction of Dreads/Freighters. Carriers and MS are Fuel providers for lag bombs with hundreds/towsand of drones lagging the systems where battles take place. How many times you are in a battle where you can actually can do whatever the FC is ordering and when the drones start to be droped the lag explodes ? I hope CCP finds a way to stop this madness of super caps and puts a end to the supercap inflation. (Hiper)Boost the construction time and price for super caps AND Caps, make them a rare thing again and after that change the sov mechanics. With time the number of caps will drop and things will return to normal. I think all the community will be grateffull, I at least would be. ________________ God is my Wingman
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:16:00 - [48] I still think that maybe a solution to the titan issue would be to either: 1. limit the amount of titans in a single system 2. Instead of having the DDD timer set for an hour per titan have it set per system so no matter how many titans you have only 1 DDD can be launched per grid or perhaps even per system per hour.
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:21:00 - [49] cynojammers only in sov 4 systems and only 1 DDD per system every 1hour? will still make the titans useful but titan blobbing useless and thus making for a more diverse and fluid battlefield perhaps?
Virida Mindstar Technology The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:32:00 - [50] I tried telling CCP Hammer that, in person at 2006 fanfest, dont think he realized i understood this day would be a reality, that titans would be common, i sugested making Tech2 titans, 10 times as usefull, and extremely expensive, not offensively, but perhaps with ability to fit all sort of strange things. 1 is awesome, 5 is great, 10 is fun, 15 is "oh no, not them too", 25 is bad, 50 is a nightmare. Id shift the titans focus for some other purpose if i was to sugest anything, as, altering doomsday to weaker attack power, making a new superweapon able for a Tech2 titan for killing outposts, and making titans able to enter "space station" mode, and act as a pure outpost a while(actually, turning to a station, would be dull for the pilot to sit inside a POS with docking bays, lol).
Kafe Kuvarica	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:33:00 - [51] TBH I dont understand whinage because of titan power. They were nerfed bigtime, when other alliances except BoB started getting them. Setting DD remotely on cyno was imba, cause titans was never in danger. Now with lag and desync in even 100vs100 fleet fights Titan can be lagged very easily and killed if opponnent get lucky to be on grid with caps/fighters. We witnessed that even BoB didnt want to risk their titans in Y-2ANO cause they were afraid of lag. I will say again Titans are not the issue by themselves or cynojammed systems. Lag is primarly only thing ruining the game, and honestly I doubt CCP will ever solve it, cause it will proly require coding from beggining and noone wants 10 months downtime :D What someone said above, with 3 or 4 powerblocks in EVE I dont see any serious territorial warfare in enar future, cause every block can easily field few titans and 400+ pilots and then make whole region unplayable. Maybe adding new regions can stretch blobing a bit, but dunno if it is possible with poor state of TQ. All whats left for fun is nanofaging.
Spoon Thumb Caldari Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:46:00 - [52] I still say you're all going in the wrong direction. We need a finer grained sov system. I.e. a system where there are lots of small targets as well as the few big targets (POS). A titan is useless for defending 10 disparate structures each with only 10k hitpoints each whilst a few inties and a dictor would be far better choice. That's the way at least I'd solve the whole bigger blob = better issue that clouds the whole of 0.0 warfare atm Khaldari khanidpublic: RP channel for Kingdom loyalists Recruiting
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Kafe Kuvarica Now with lag and desync in even 100vs100 fleet fights Titan can be lagged very easily and killed if opponnent get lucky to be on grid with caps/fighters. How do you propose to get your cap fleet into a cynojammed system? How could your 100 man fleet survive 2 or 3 DD blasts from the other titans while they try to take down the stricken one? SOmeone earlier made a great post which was that a DD would disable the cynojammer for say 1 hour so that using a titan at least comes with some risk because atm titans in a cynojammed system = near invulnerable.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:50:00 - [54] Originally by: thetwilitehour The biggest problem, when attacking an alliance holding a titan is the issue with Titans that was occuring before: they are nearly invincible... For being nearly invincible we have seen already quite a lot of titan kills. I can't see really such a big problem at the moment. But when more and more titans are build then we will become a problem. At least when in every system worth of defending you have 3+ titans. On the other hand, such ships are really expensive and if you lose one it is not nice.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:53:00 - [55] Wow DD deactivating cyno jammer for some time (even 15 min) is an AWESOME idea!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
AIchemist Gallente O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:57:00 - [56] One of the biggest problems I have experienced is the greta lag these super ships create. The other day I motor boating around Delve I jump into a system and WHAMMM.For 15 minutes i spent jumping into a system.So I think "oh great I bet I am dead before I load" thinking there was a big blob on the other side. There was no blob, only 1 titan 2 mother ships and a few dreads sieging.That was it!!! Everything in that system was lagged and almost unplayable.There was no support, counter gang, nothing.Only like 9 people in local with me. That is not the first time I was roaming and get hit with massive lag and learn there is dread sieging or titan at a pos.This is also part of the problem?
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.10 12:57:00 - [57] How to stop Titan Madness-some suggestions: 1-Assault frigs New role bonus-100% immunity to DD blasts. Speshul sekrut AF bonus-1000% damage bonus/level-v-Titan hulls. Titan and AF condundrum sorted. Gentlemen and Ladies....man your Jaguars 2-The Chribba Gambit Alliances conclude supercap warfare and multiple Titans make play suck. All volunteer to give MS's and Titans to Chribba for refining into...errr...whatever he refines stuff into. Resulting ISK flow returned to alliances who rejoice and promptly return to shooting each other in BS fleets where they belong. 3-Last for today--the Mysterious Star to the rescue? Star ignites as flaming message is writ large across the universe. In huge letters the Jovians reveal themselves: "You cannot have such playthings as these. The Planck bubble is being drained by your constantly cyno'ing Titans and other rubbish about. The warp jammers are disturbing our tranquil observation of the star currents. These toys you call "fighter drones" frequently kill space dolphins and whales indiscriminately. When the star fades all these things will become as grains of sand. Say goodnight Irene". Click. I'll take option 3. Tuesday will do . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Fire Hawk Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Wow DD deactivating cyno jammer for some time (even 15 min) is an AWESOME idea!!!!!! yes awesome, so you can sum eve to : bring more numbers than your enemy and you win. This balance thingy is just stupid. If you use good tactics you can just avoid them. If you work in a system during some days, you will prevent titans to come in and lock down the system and it will be yours. I know what you are trying to do there. You want stuff to be easier and add voices. Fact is that the coalition wants to jump a huge fleet in a system, easly take the jammer and pile more ships in local while dreads work. Result, defender, with lag, can't do anything. Now you have to work a tactics and patience. If you don't have both, play another game and give me your stuff. DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
Smith Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:09:00 - [59] Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible.
HenkieBoy Enrave	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:09:00 - [60] Quote: 1-Assault frigs New role bonus-100% immunity to DD blasts. Speshul sekrut AF bonus-1000% damage bonus/level-v-Titan hulls. Titan and AF condundrum sorted. Gentlemen and Ladies....man your Jaguars Just wanted to post the same Just make Assault Frig anti-cap ships
AIchemist Gallente O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Kagura Nikon Wow DD deactivating cyno jammer for some time (even 15 min) is an AWESOME idea!!!!!! yes awesome, so you can sum eve to : bring more numbers than your enemy and you win. This balance thingy is just stupid. If you use good tactics you can just avoid them. If you work in a system during some days, you will prevent titans to come in and lock down the system and it will be yours. I know what you are trying to do there. You want stuff to be easier and add voices. Fact is that the coalition wants to jump a huge fleet in a system, easly take the jammer and pile more ships in local while dreads work. Result, defender, with lag, can't do anything. Now you have to work a tactics and patience. If you don't have both, play another game and give me your stuff. Bob calm down, this is a disscussion about titans.Don't make it about you and your holding unto your last strings.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:13:00 - [62] Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players.
Hitme Harder HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:15:00 - [63] Titans in moderation aren't that bad. But when you've got so many stacked, it becomes ridiculous. It'd be cool, for example, if you could only build a titan if you have constellation sov, that titan belonging and being tethered to that constellation, and no others being able to be built in that constellation until that one is destroyed. Then you could buff the **** out of titans. Not their survivability or DDD damage or refresh, but in other ways. I'm not crying, but as far as game balance is concerned, titans really weren't thought out well, if they thought out at all. Some dummy probably just got drunk was like HAAY.. we shud add a sheep.. that blows up ebrything.. <burp> with a sooper cannon.. butt it'll be ballanecd cauz they'll be hard 2 build.. <pukes> And now they're new dreadnaught. AREN'T THEY ADORABLE?
King Fury Caldari Fury Corp.	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:36:00 - [64] Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Dont you think by having cyno jammers/titans, you are encouraging superblobs as thats whats needed to take them down?
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:39:00 - [65] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: thetwilitehour The biggest problem, when attacking an alliance holding a titan is the issue with Titans that was occuring before: they are nearly invincible... For being nearly invincible we have seen already quite a lot of titan kills. I can't see really such a big problem at the moment. But when more and more titans are build then we will become a problem. At least when in every system worth of defending you have 3+ titans. On the other hand, such ships are really expensive and if you lose one it is not nice. There have been 3 titan kills while the pilot was in the ship and active. Not a single one of those was in a friendly-jammed system where probably 99% of DD's have taken place since shrike was killed after Rev 2. When you lose one you get 1/3rd of the hull cost back from default insurance, and half of the initial investment is BPOs, so compared to getting your first titan it really isn't too painful replacing them.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:39:00 - [66] Originally by: King Fury Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Dont you think by having cyno jammers/titans, you are encouraging superblobs as thats whats needed to take them down? If as is claimed by GOONS and others on the forum that it is imposable to take a system that has titans and a cyno jammer no matter how may blobs you spam at it then surely it will force these blobbers to find more tactical ways of dealing with it.
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:40:00 - [67] Originally by: maralt Originally by: King Fury Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Dont you think by having cyno jammers/titans, you are encouraging superblobs as thats whats needed to take them down? If as is claimed by GOONS and others on the forum that it is imposable to take a system that has titans and a cyno jammer no matter how may blobs you spam at it then surely it will force these blobbers to find more tactical ways of dealing with it. It's much easier to get CCP to fix broken game mechanics.
Smith Caldari Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:40:00 - [68] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players. But look at how much space a self-proclaimed best alliance has lost/withdrawn from. Just because they didn't lose everything we need to change the game?
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:41:00 - [69] Originally by: KIATolon Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players. "teamwork and politics" has limited effectiveness, as does "cynojammer/supercap".. As you have said before, the coalition has taken cynojammed system before, so they arent impossible to take.. what most of the complaints are actually indirectly aimed at, is that the limits of "teamwork and politics" are being reached.. What the coalition wants is that numbers can be used to wipe out anyone.. even though it isnt good game design.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 13:54:00 - [70] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: KIATolon Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players. "teamwork and politics" has limited effectiveness, as does "cynojammer/supercap".. As you have said before, the coalition has taken cynojammed system before, so they arent impossible to take.. what most of the complaints are actually indirectly aimed at, is that the limits of "teamwork and politics" are being reached.. What the coalition wants is that numbers can be used to wipe out anyone.. even though it isnt good game design.. Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design?
Riflez Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:00:00 - [71] Originally by: Scavok Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: KIATolon Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players. "teamwork and politics" has limited effectiveness, as does "cynojammer/supercap".. As you have said before, the coalition has taken cynojammed system before, so they arent impossible to take.. what most of the complaints are actually indirectly aimed at, is that the limits of "teamwork and politics" are being reached.. What the coalition wants is that numbers can be used to wipe out anyone.. even though it isnt good game design.. Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design? Allowing 500 characters in t1 cruisers to steamroll a system abusing serverside limitations is good game design ?
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Scavok Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design? I would suggest, defeat would mean the fleet wasnt: a) superior b) better organised I love the exaggerated arguements you get on forums _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:02:00 - [73] Originally by: Riflez Originally by: Scavok Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: KIATolon Without teamwork and politics, there would be only 1 option in EVE, and that's the cynojammer/supercap. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well teamwork and politics could be at causing the self-proclaimed best alliance in eve being over-run by pilots. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed to do was to have a cyno jammer and 4 pilots able to defend against an almost infinite number of players. "teamwork and politics" has limited effectiveness, as does "cynojammer/supercap".. As you have said before, the coalition has taken cynojammed system before, so they arent impossible to take.. what most of the complaints are actually indirectly aimed at, is that the limits of "teamwork and politics" are being reached.. What the coalition wants is that numbers can be used to wipe out anyone.. even though it isnt good game design.. Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design? Allowing 500 characters in t1 cruisers to steamroll a system abusing serverside limitations is good game design ? No, it would be poor game design and we should be thankful to CCP that it isn't possible.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Nekumi Originally by: maralt Originally by: King Fury Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Dont you think by having cyno jammers/titans, you are encouraging superblobs as thats whats needed to take them down? If as is claimed by GOONS and others on the forum that it is imposable to take a system that has titans and a cyno jammer no matter how may blobs you spam at it then surely it will force these blobbers to find more tactical ways of dealing with it. It's much easier to nerf than to think. fixed
Riflez Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Scavok Originally by: Riflez Originally by: Scavok Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: KIATolon Without teamwork and politics, there would be No, it would be poor game design and we should be thankful to CCP that it isn't possible. ok let me rephrase that 480 people in t1 cruisers and 20 people in dreads. Sounds familiar ? I thought so.
AIchemist Gallente O.W.N. Corp United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:16:00 - [76] Edited by: AIchemist on 10/03/2008 14:16:17 Originally by: Riflez no clue Try posting with a main?
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:18:00 - [77] Edited by: Scavok on 10/03/2008 14:22:56 Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Scavok Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design? I would suggest, defeat would mean the fleet wasnt: a) superior b) better organised I love the exaggerated arguements you get on forums Ok, so lets take your attempts on the paxton jammer. You lost huge battleship fleets and failed to take it down over multiple attempts until you gave up and spammed the system. One failed attempt was even after you had largely destroyed their fleet on a gate and only left them with POS gunners and some suicide tacklers. I would say the BoB fleet was clearly superior and better organized than paxton/CVA's given they were pretty much massacred on the gate with odds that weren't bad. Now imagine if they had 2 titans at the POS ready to DD. Obviously just trying to take on a faction POS is hard enough considering that's all they needed. When you raise the possibility of losing your entire fleet instantly when coming on grid, or not being able to warp out when you see the DD animation due to the lag generated from shooting a jammer or titan, the game becomes nothing more than a joke. Ok, now imagine 4 titans. If you somehow **** up with the first 2, you still have another try right away. 6 titans? 8 titans? Oh boy fun
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:20:00 - [78] Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 10/03/2008 14:15:55 Originally by: maralt If as is claimed by GOONS and others on the forum that it is imposable to take a system that has titans and a cyno jammer no matter how may blobs you spam at it then surely it will force these blobbers to find more tactical ways of dealing with it. Originally by: Nekumi It's much easier to nerf than to think. fixed That was implied.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:20:00 - [79] Originally by: thoth foc I would suggest, defeat would mean the fleet wasnt: a) superior b) better organised And many alliances (not part of the alliance/coalition war) disagree with you, hence the discussion.
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:25:00 - [80] Edited by: maralt on 10/03/2008 14:25:52 Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: thoth foc I would suggest, defeat would mean the fleet wasnt: a) superior b) better organised And many alliances (not part of the alliance/coalition war) disagree with you, hence the discussion. Never part or just not part anymore?.
darth solo Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:26:00 - [81] i feel sorry for the smaller alliances trying to carve out some space tbh. EVE is a big blue nap fest of isk making junkies. When the new guy comes along its all about the blob. the titan only increases the problems for the little guy, soon you will have 10 titans in 1 fleet which will mean capital fleet battles, not really my idea of fun tbh as it puts the game out of reach for alot of EVEs players. Im sure even the devs said that the battleship should be the main fleet weapon and that capitals were never intended to be that. more of a logistic tool. luckily im in the position where i look at the enemy having Titans in a "how can we kill them" way. but when we start to see double figures, which we will, then id say the game is going to have serious problems. d solo.
darth solo Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:28:00 - [82] Originally by: King Fury Originally by: Smith Without cyno jammers, supercaps there would be only 1 option in EVE and that would be the super blob. For me I think the recent conflict has been a good test to see how well well jammers and titans could be at preventing an alliance from being totally over run by a superblob. I for one support this as the game would be totally rubbish if all we needed do was be in the biggest fleets possible. Dont you think by having cyno jammers/titans, you are encouraging superblobs as thats whats needed to take them down? thats a good point, far from a tool for removing superblobs the titan actaully encourages them. its like a superblob magnet. d solo.
Calliphora Vomitoria Auriga inc	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:36:00 - [83] The RA dude hits it pritty well on the head, If bob where trying to take nol only in bs ect with RA goons MC ect ect sitting there with titans and pos, jammer and like bob can do lag out system by deploying fighters at the right moment I see 0 chance, skill or no skill. or is there any bob here that would seriously claim otherwise? I am a blue Fly, I like eating apon ur corpse, is that really so bad?,
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:47:00 - [84] Originally by: Scavok Ok, so lets take your attempts on the paxton jammer. You lost huge battleship fleets and failed to take it down over multiple attempts until you gave up and spammed the system. One failed attempt was even after you had largely destroyed their fleet on a gate and only left them with POS gunners and some suicide tacklers. I would say the BoB fleet was clearly superior and better organized than paxton/CVA's given they were pretty much massacred on the gate with odds that weren't bad. Now imagine if they had 2 titans at the POS ready to DD. Obviously just trying to take on a faction POS is hard enough considering that's all they needed. When you raise the possibility of losing your entire fleet instantly when coming on grid, or not being able to warp out when you see the DD animation due to the lag generated from shooting a jammer or titan, the game becomes nothing more than a joke. Ok, now imagine 4 titans. If you somehow **** up with the first 2, you still have another try right away. 6 titans? 8 titans? Oh boy fun No one said eve should be easy, nor did they say eve should be like a FPS where you can instantly wipe out an enemy.. Players complained when it was station ping pong, now they are complaining because 0.0 has a certain degree of stability.. As Suas so kindly points out, the coalition has taken such systems before.. when BOB certainly had more than 2 titans.. so it isnt impossible it just isnt easy.. I wont say I particularly like the sovereignty system atm, but as you pointed out, there are also ways around it.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:57:00 - [85] Originally by: thoth foc No one said eve should be easy, nor did they say eve should be like a FPS where you can instantly wipe out an enemy.. Players complained when it was station ping pong, now they are complaining because 0.0 has a certain degree of stability.. As Suas so kindly points out, the coalition has taken such systems before.. when BOB certainly had more than 2 titans.. so it isnt impossible it just isnt easy.. I wont say I particularly like the sovereignty system atm, but as you pointed out, there are also ways around it.. Good thing this is a game and not a political system, where stuff that is clearly broken can easily be fixed and you don't have to live with it just because it's the way it is.
Tearavygh Quillam Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:09:00 - [86] Titans are not a problem. The problem is that there is too much ISK in this game, but not so many ways to lose it.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:10:00 - [87] Originally by: Scavok Good thing this is a game and not a political system, where stuff that is clearly broken can easily be fixed and you don't have to live with it just because it's the way it is. I think your still struggling with the "clearly broken" part.. sofar you've got to: "it's not easy, i'll cry on the forums alot and hope it's changed" There is very few alliances i would suggest that it is next to impossible to take systems off when they put their minds to defending them.. and tbh i dont see a problem with the strongest alliances being able to defend themselves.. The number of systems they can defend is still limited.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Saldoro Disco Biscuits New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:16:00 - [88] The whole argument is pointless. We all play timezone wars. If you're going to take down a jammer you do it when the hostile Titans are not online. No alliance has 24/7 Titan coverage. This is how Goons took QY6. They took the jammer when BoB had no Titans online and cyno'd in two fueling Rorquals with the cap fleet so the caps didn't need to jump out. So the second time they needed to take the jammer out they used caps. What's the problem? I could say, "Hey Goons, didn't you take 3 regions from BoB? Surely you must be pwning CynoTower after CynoTower?" - but I won't. Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down. Taking space should be hard. You should have to fight tooth and nail for every inch. Taking a system from a defending alliance should be ridiculously hard as it is now. Goons have proved time and time again they can beat these towers. But if BoB has Titans on in your Prime Time then you simply have to adapt (as you've done). You can't just say "Oh they got Titans online in our prime time, no fair!". Players in BoB do crazy 4am alrm clock ops to achieve goals. They make real RL sacrifices to achieve in-game goals. This might be crazy and Goons have time and time again taken the p!ss out of BoB for doing such things. But if it works it works. Adapt to your enemy's tactics or reap the consequences. Saying all this, I do agree that Jammers need a look at but not to the point that it makes huge loopholes in the whole system. This issue is of course bigger than BoB vs Coalition. The current system greatly benefits smaller alliances at Paxton found out. But it also depends greatly on the cohesion and skill of the defending alliance as DMC found out. Goons got double doomsday'd on a BoB tower the other day. The result? Emo quittage? What was to stop them going back to QY6 (one whole huge and mighty ONE jump away) and getting in replacement ships and coming back and taking down teh jammer in the cool-down hour? See, there's plenty of ways to get around this but takes time and patience and lots of logistics. If you're not willing to put all that into a system takeover then you simply don't deserve it. There's alot more to Eve alliance warfare than bringing 235,765 people to the dinner table. ---- Looking for secure research opportunities with no queues?
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:17:00 - [89] Originally by: thoth foc I think your still struggling with the "clearly broken" part.. sofar you've got to: "it's not easy, i'll cry on the forums alot and hope it's changed" CCP said it was broken before we did, hence the "clearly broken" comments.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:19:00 - [90] Originally by: Saldoro Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down. Keeping that down cost multiple caps and hundreds of BS. Also bob have 23/7 titan coverage.
Badhbh Terra Incognita	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:20:00 - [91] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Saldoro Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down. Keeping that down cost multiple caps and hundreds of BS. Also bob have 23/7 titan coverage. What you saying here is BoB was more organzied than you? You had it down you could have kept it down with enough will :P
Pastora Russian SOBR Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:21:00 - [92] But wait and see, when there will be gangs with 20+ titans on the same grid... :) _______________________________________________ If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I would grow mushrooms in my pants.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Badhbh Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Saldoro Cyno tower in NOL was also taken down. Keeping that down cost multiple caps and hundreds of BS. Also bob have 23/7 titan coverage. What you saying here is BoB was more organzied than you? You had it down you could have kept it down with enough will :P Yes, keeping 2 titans online is a lot harder than keeping hundreds of bs / capitals online. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Brmble Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 - [94] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Scavok Good thing this is a game and not a political system, where stuff that is clearly broken can easily be fixed and you don't have to live with it just because it's the way it is. I think your still struggling with the "clearly broken" part.. sofar you've got to: "it's not easy, i'll cry on the forums alot and hope it's changed" There is very few alliances i would suggest that it is next to impossible to take systems off when they put their minds to defending them.. and tbh i dont see a problem with the strongest alliances being able to defend themselves.. The number of systems they can defend is still limited.. wich implies you just got unlucky that you had so few titans to defend the south with had we attacked later you would have had more titans and at some point defense of the whole south would become as trivial as the defense of delve ~ no not believin in urself ~
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Pastora But wait and see, when there will be gangs with 20+ titans on the same grid... :) Once doomsdays become a problem for capital ships, capital ships will really need rethinking. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Frygok Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:03:00 - [96] It's really a shame that posters here can't seem to look beyond the alliance name of others, to see the points they are trying to make. As a fairly neutral part in this debacle, I have to admit that cynojammer+titan combo is pretty crazy. Whether or not they are encouraging or discouraging blobs, having to warp in battleship fleets in the size of +100 where there are multiple titans, tens of caps and supercaps does seem like pure suicide. I for one can't really see how to take down a jammer and get the capital ships into a system defended in such a way. It's not about numbers for me either. It's not that you are reaching the maximum of what diplomacy can do. Because it's not that you can't get 5000 people into a system, it's about you can't get a single capital ship into a system until your BS fleet somehow magically survives multiple titans (a phenomenon that will undoubtebly become worse as time goes by), caps and pos guns. The only way I see this happening is timezone fightings, but if the cynojammers that are incapped can be replaced by the defenders instantly, it's not really encouraging. There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps. The answer in my eyes is to be found in the way that POS warfare works in general. I'll leave that to more experienced players than me though.
Rudi Storm SGL	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:07:00 - [97] You (well not Goons by them self) have taken Cynojammed systems before and not so long ago. You know it can be done and it has been done. Since when is it broken? Since a few days? Since a week? Was there an update (to titans and cyno jammers) in the last 2 weeks that I don't know of?
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:12:00 - [98] Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:13:40 Originally by: Frygok There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps. They already have one, especially this group. It's called "mobility". Anyone who thinks it is easy, logistically, to get a capital fleet, not least titans, through a jump bridge, in to a jammed system, has never done it. It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago. Hypocrites, much? Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Lucius Ventrue Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:18:00 - [99] Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Kagura Nikon Wow DD deactivating cyno jammer for some time (even 15 min) is an AWESOME idea!!!!!! yes awesome, so you can sum eve to : bring more numbers than your enemy and you win. This balance thingy is just stupid. If you use good tactics you can just avoid them. If you work in a system during some days, you will prevent titans to come in and lock down the system and it will be yours. I know what you are trying to do there. You want stuff to be easier and add voices. Fact is that the coalition wants to jump a huge fleet in a system, easly take the jammer and pile more ships in local while dreads work. Result, defender, with lag, can't do anything. Now you have to work a tactics and patience. If you don't have both, play another game and give me your stuff. This is exactly it. Game gets harder, so B and C to get enough voices behind it to get the game changed. It worked once before so why not give it another shot again... This is just more of the poor me BS. Tactics, Planning good coordination, spacial awareness, little bit of patience would pay dividens, but some folks want their cake and eat it too... Going to be commical if/when we go back on the offensive, how much these cynojamming situations vs several titans are going to be an issue for us.
Frygok Minmatar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:18:00 - [100] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:13:40 Originally by: Frygok There needs to be found a way where the attackers can have some sort of advantage, instead of just running into the cyno+titan combo like lambs to the slaughter, while at the same time not just be able to jump in 200 caps. They already have one, especially this group. It's called "mobility". Anyone who thinks it is easy, logistically, to get a capital fleet, not least titans, through a jump bridge, in to a jammed system, has never done it. It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago. Hypocrites, much? So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush. That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless.
Dafuzz Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:20:00 - [101] When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers". We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems. It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort. Bring it. -- -If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets..
Mr Mozzie Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:22:00 - [102] Originally by: Scavok Allowing 2 people to defeat an otherwise superior and better organized fleet is good game design? Okay? You are joking right? At least you got the number of titans right.
Rudi Storm SGL	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:26:00 - [103] Every time a BoB DD is used 10 random BoB Subscriptions should be deleted. That sounds about fair! That should teach those cheating bobits!!!
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:28:00 - [104] Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers". We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems. It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort. Bring it. When you 'gave'? Damn, rewriting history FTW.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:28:00 - [105] Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers". We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems. It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort. Bring it. :eff Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:29:00 - [106] Originally by: Frygok So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush. That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless. No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!". No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken. Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:31:00 - [107] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Frygok So you would be fine with nerfing of the cyno+titan combo? Because that was actually what I would like to see, only not to the point of the cyno being a 10 second obstacle and then onwards the capital rush. That was why I was arguing for a "middle ground" between the trenches of cyno+titan and cyno being useless. No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!". No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken. Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo. Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:31:00 - [108] Edited by: KIATolon on 10/03/2008 16:32:30 Originally by: Dianabolic It isn't easy, it requires commitment to the cause to complete these logistics and I note with GREAT irony that what the goons are now complaining about is what enabled them to operate and clear out the towers in 9-9 all that time ago. Hypocrites, much? Ah, all those times we dd'd your fleet in 9-9 as you tried to take down the jammer. I must have pressed that buton 5-7 times one night alone. Damn that bought back memories. My apologies for the hypocrisy. Originally by: Dianabolic Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo. Yet you've still never been able to take a goon jammed system. Why is that?
Dafuzz Gallente Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:32:00 - [109] Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'? Damn, rewriting history FTW. You saw correctly. They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change. We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again. -- -If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets..
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Dafuzz Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'? Damn, rewriting history FTW. You saw correctly. They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change. We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again. There is a distinct difference between 'giving' and 'giving up'. I am sure the more educated members of BoB can explain the difference.
Fire Hawk Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 - [111] Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:36:26 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dafuzz Originally by: Malachon Draco When you 'gave'? Damn, rewriting history FTW. You saw correctly. They think they took what we rightfully gave up. They tried to get me to invade Scalding Pass for good fights. I told em no, they were gonna have to take a month and plant towers in between their areas and Delve, in regions we vacated, and that they could "bring it" to our doorstep for a change. We withdrew to Delve. Now we are stalemated. Just look at all the cries to nerf cynojammers and titans again. There is a distinct difference between 'giving' and 'giving up'. I am sure the more educated members of BoB can explain the difference. Well it was hard to "pick" them after we "giving up" them. DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:35:00 - [112] Originally by: Dianabolic Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:36:00 - [113] Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dafuzz When we gave goons all those regions, I told Godek to "have fun fueling all those towers". We have all seen several instances of stalemate in conflict; there are work-arounds. It just depends on how bad you want to defeat the cynojammed systems. It also means you have to hold your fragile coalition together, and make a concerted effort. Bring it. When you 'gave'? Damn, rewriting history FTW. You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ? Announcing you're running away screaming like a little girl does not make it voluntary.
Pastora Russian SOBR Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:36:00 - [114] Originally by: Dianabolic No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken. Shock! Actually, to be honest, I totally agree with this. This is the only and easiest solution to implement at the moment. _______________________________________________ If ifs and ands were pots and pans, I would grow mushrooms in my pants.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:37:00 - [115] Originally by: Fire Hawk You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ? Was that the one that said bob would rule all of eve, or another?
Fire Hawk Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:39:00 - [116] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Fire Hawk You missed the official announcement ? You know the movie made by wildcard productions... You see, I got Pics, do you ? Was that the one that said bob would rule all of eve, or another? The another one, you dumb DICE French Wing ___ Fear the french touch.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:42:00 - [117] Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:42:15 Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic No, I think any group that has the commitment and determination to build such gargantuan ships should benefit from them, absolutely no doubt. Because, where does it stop? "Oh look, the enemy has 30 ms at a shredder tower and we can't break them WHAAAA nerf ms and cyno jammer!". No, I don't think so. Personally, all I would do is increase titan mass so much that they can't use a jump bridge, thus the defender has to drop the jammer to get capitals in. It still gives the defender, in a DEFENDED position, the advantages they deserve, with a bit more risk, and it isn't a knee jerk fix to something that isn't actually that broken. Both myself and many others, especially given the numbers our current enemy can muster, would have absolutely no problems breaking a jammer down - sure we'd take losses, pretty heavy losses probably, but that is what SHOULD happen when you're the aggressor, imo. Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:44:00 - [118] Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:46:00 - [119] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle. You have to give the defender an advantage though. If they can build, fuel, move and muster 30 motherships then it SHOULD be hard as nails to break, imo... if not impossible. And if that can be applied to more than one system (and I don't think any group has that many ms, even) then more power to them. Economic power does have to count for something, after all. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Marcus Aurelius Colossus Security Services	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:47:00 - [120] If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous... How about making pos less important instead of more ?
Fire Hawk Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:51:00 - [121] Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous... How about making pos less important instead of more ? Because most of people ****ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance. In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap. DICE French Wing** ___ Fear the french touch.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:57:00 - [122] Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous... How about making pos less important instead of more ? Because most of people ****ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance. In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap. You see, eve is a lot like WWII... Originally by:** nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Fire Hawk Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:59:00 - [123] Originally by: Yorda Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous... How about making pos less important instead of more ? Because most of people ****ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance. In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap. You see, eve is a lot like WWII... I don't see what WWII have to do with titan+jammer issue. Explain please. DICE French Wing** ___ Fear the french touch.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:00:00 - [124] Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Yorda Originally by: Fire Hawk Edited by: Fire Hawk on 10/03/2008 16:54:13 Originally by: Marcus Aurelius If titans+cynojammers+poswarfare are the problem. Because titans are the only answer for the less numerous to blobbage overkill by the numerous... How about making pos less important instead of more ? Because most of people ****ly think taking space is THE ultimate solution to kill an alliance. In all games when you can't do something in a way, you look for another way and adapt to reach your goal. Some people feel the need to go look for a blitz to win beacause they feel it's too hard and want victory asap. You see, eve is a lot like WWII... I don't see what WWII have to do with titan+jammer issue. Explain please. My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun. Originally by:** nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:02:00 - [125] Oh wait, did that make sense? my bad. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:05:00 - [126] Originally by: Yorda My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun. I remember something about that but i do not remember the guys in the trenches giving up and crying about it or god reaching down and nerfing the machine guns either.
rValdez5987 Amarr Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:06:00 - [127] You need to remember something that was said by ccp hammerhead if im not mistaken.... that the python code only allows for one cpu to be used even if you have 8. Where is this relevant? Lag. having another 7 cpu's would undoubtedly reduce much of the lag your having due to titans and the large fleets needed to counter them. Second fix would be to make it so that the doomsday in general can only be used every 30 minutes, and its SYSTEM WIDE. That means if RA's titan sets of a doomsday in one of their home systems, another titan from RA in their homesystem cannot use its doomsday until the original titans doomsday timer is done. end result: 1 doomsday per titan, per alliance. The rest of the titans would be support. However, that is just the way I would do it to make the whiners happy. My main point titans are fine. they dont need adjustment, they aren't invincible, and they are very expensive. Since when does having 20-40 titans in game mean they are the next battleship? They can be blown up over the course of a fleet battle easily, but it takes 3 months to build them, not to mention the parts, bpc, isk.... My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances.
KIATolon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:07:00 - [128] Originally by: rValdez5987 You need to remember something that was said by ccp hammerhead if im not mistaken.... that the python code only allows for one cpu to be used even if you have 8. Where is this relevant? Lag. having another 7 cpu's would undoubtedly reduce much of the lag your having due to titans and the large fleets needed to counter them. Second fix would be to make it so that the doomsday in general can only be used every 30 minutes, and its SYSTEM WIDE. That means if RA's titan sets of a doomsday in one of their home systems, another titan from RA in their homesystem cannot use its doomsday until the original titans doomsday timer is done. end result: 1 doomsday per titan, per alliance. The rest of the titans would be support. However, that is just the way I would do it to make the whiners happy. My main point titans are fine. they dont need adjustment, they aren't invincible, and they are very expensive. Since when does having 20-40 titans in game mean they are the next battleship? They can be blown up over the course of a fleet battle easily, but it takes 3 months to build them, not to mention the parts, bpc, isk.... So, you think titans should be changed, but not changed. ...Thanks for this.
rValdez5987 Amarr Killed In Action The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:18:00 - [129] Edited by: rValdez5987 on 10/03/2008 17:18:35 I suggested changes, even though I think they are fine. Part of being a mostly unbiased party is both showing my true opinion and providing feedback that is constructive. Its like one of those situations where, you dont want something to change but you provide some recommendations for change if it does. My views and opinions are my own, not my corp or alliances.
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:03:00 - [130] I can't find the thread to quote it but someone suggested whacking Cyno Jammers with the nerf bat. This idea has merrit on the surface but dig a little deeper and you'll start to see problems. Yes, the combination of multiple Titans plus Cyno Jammers is a problem but what about the Alliances that claim space but don't have a Titan? By nerfing or indeed removing Cyno Jammers, you immediately skew the balance of Eve towards the Titan holding Alliance. Furthermore, without the Cyno Jammer as it is today, how could any non-Titan owning Alliance ever hope to keep up in the arms race by building their own? Mulitiple Titans in Cyno Jammed systems are a problem but the problem isn't the Jammer. The problem is, as the original poster alluded to, that multiple Titans should never of been allowed to happen. I'm certain CCP would be the first to admit they grossly underestimated the build costs of these ships because anyone who has read EON issue 1 with the interview with Oveur, he clearly states Titans are (where) supposed to be the Centerpeice to an Alliances fleet, not the fleet itself. Increase the cost of a Titan significantly and implement the idea of disabling the Jammer for X amount of time if a DDD is used and you aproach the problem from an angle that doesn't penalise the smaller Alliances. Make a Difference
Cursive Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:14:00 - [131] Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons. With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak). What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence? It's all a big conspiracy to take Concord out and make all pubbies our slaves. This is just another piece to the Hulk massacre puzzle.
Sentinel Eeex Caldari DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:25:00 - [132] Fact that any capital or supercapital ship can get inside a cynojammed system is pretty silly. Or fact that cynojammer keeps working on a reinforced POS... Or fact that it's easy to kill/reanchor another cynojammer... Or fact that such an important module uses so little resources... I mean, I need CPU to open a cyno (either on my ship, or with cynogen module on a POS) - why cynojammer wouldn't need CPU in order to prevent a cyno? Wtf CCP? Jumpbridges should not allow capital ships (that require cyno to jump anywhere) to get into cynojammed systems. Then one side can camp 1 cynojammed system all day long, while another side will have a go at the cynojammer in another system. But as it is now, defending fleet will jumpbridge itself to 2nd cynojammed system faster than attackers can get there. Attackers should at least get some sort of reward for being able to incapacitate cynojammer, and put the cynojammer POS into reinforced. Cynojammer should stop working until POS is back to 50% shields, and module repaired. It should not be possible to repair it (and online it) or kill it if underlying POS is reinforced - make it possible to kill module (hull damage) only if POS is gone. Make it unanchorable only if it's not damaged, and POS is not in reinforced. But at the moment, you just kill the module (which takes way less time than incapacitating it) and anchor/online it somewhere else.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:48:00 - [133] Originally by: maralt Originally by: Yorda My bad, eve is like WWI where the jammer is a trench and the titan is the machine gun. I remember something about that but i do not remember the guys in the trenches giving up and crying about it or god reaching down and nerfing the machine guns either. they invented the tank and started using airplanes.
Dave Borland Einherjar Incorporated	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:03:00 - [134] Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:08:00 - [135] Originally by: Dave Borland Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance. Hai guys, let's limit each system to a maximum of 1 titan and 100 assorted other ships per system PER SIDE! I really do like that idea, I really do, because that means 1:1 odds. And I don't think anyone wants to fight us on those odds :) Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Krall Amarr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:09:00 - [136] imho the main problem of supercapital proliferation is: eve price not follow isk inflaction, 3 years ago was hard make a titan becouse was more hard make isk, now is relatively easy make 50bl for make a titan, than we have many. Eve need a recalibration of cost, like patch +25% hp all ship, now +25% or more cost for make all tipology of ship, or is inevitable have 100+ titan for 2009. Eve price (include npc price) not follow evolution of game, make today 1bl is 300% more easy than 2 years ago. A little example when i was on lv and i fly bs sniper t2, a hyperion full t2+rig cost 400ml, a single 425 rail t2 cost 15ml !!! now? an hyperion+ fitting and rig cost less than 200ml (HALF in 1,5 year) Half cost, + now is more easy make money. Chowdown not have say something wrong. I think like him: eve build cost need a recalibration for follow current isk system. CCP need to do something for keep this tipology of ship "rare" or is normal who have 10+ titan become invulnerable.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:57:00 - [137] The big mistake was doomsdays to be honest. The weapons on virtually every other ship in the game (with the exception of smart bombs and bombs, both of which have huge restrictions because of the obvious power of aoe weapons) are bound up in the rules and balancing of the sig radius/sig resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/transversal complex mechanics that allow ships to easily hit ships larger than they are but make hitting smaller, faster ships difficult. These are the mechanics that encourage diverse fleets and ensure that small ships will always be needed to protect big ships and vice versa. Titans throw that all out the window with the doomsday and thats the big problem.
Yaay Dum Spiro Spero	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:04:00 - [138] Originally by: Malachon Draco Edited by: Malachon Draco on 10/03/2008 09:57:01 I just read that MM now have 5 titans as well up north. Not sure how many that makes in total, BoB has 8? I guess, AAA has several, so does RA and Goons. With this being the current state of affairs, would it be possible to have a sensible discussion about where Eve is going with all these titans? (with current state of affairs I mean that nerfing Titans is no longer an automatic 'nerf BoB' thing anymore since everyone has em in significant numbers and is building more and more as we speak). What will Eve look like in 1 year time? How many titans will there be, and what will be left for fleetfights with so many titans in existence? The only reason for the large influx in super capitals is due to the huge nap fest for 8 months that benefited ever alliance who was really undeserving of having said ships. With the war now ending, and a lot of action starting up north, I think you'll see the Supercap proliferation slow considerably and lots more titans/mommas die. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619019IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID
Xtreme Wrath Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:51:00 - [139] Seems to me that a logical solution to the problem of titans might be to elminate the DDD completely... Set bonuses and such so that the titan is to a dread what a mom is to a carrier... per se. let it have more HP than dreads (of course... its a titan for christs sakes), services, the jump bridge thingy and all and let it shoot like dreads do. If you have to have teh uberz DDD then fine instead of the whole damn grid going poof... make it a bit like a smartbomb with falloff where the further you are out of the optimal, the less damage you get hit with to the point where the upper limits of the falloff hit with very minimal dmg. make it reasonable as well like maybe 30-40km or something (10opt+20-30 falloff). Chuck Norris uses a live rattlesnake for a condom.
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:05:00 - [140] Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: Dave Borland Maybe they should limit 1 Titan in a system per alliance. Hai guys, let's limit each system to a maximum of 1 titan and 100 assorted other ships per system PER SIDE! I really do like that idea, I really do, because that means 1:1 odds. And I don't think anyone wants to fight us on those odds :) You'd be suprised and you might be on to something there. Assign each ship a logistics point and each system have a hard cap on x amount of logistics points. It'd certainly add a new strategic layer to Fleet Combat. It'd solve a lot of problems including lag issues. Make a Difference
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:09:00 - [141] Edited by: Scavok on 10/03/2008 21:11:06 Originally by: Dianabolic Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: Dianabolic No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. I like your idea, but I think it should be extended to MS too... maybe. With 20-30 ms repping a POS mod, it wont die, and they cant be jammed or killed without a blob too large for the server to handle. You have to give the defender an advantage though. If they can build, fuel, move and muster 30 motherships then it SHOULD be hard as nails to break, imo... if not impossible. And if that can be applied to more than one system (and I don't think any group has that many ms, even) then more power to them. Economic power does have to count for something, after all. Seriously, faction deathstars with gunners aren't advantageous enough? You need 40 specialized fit battleships to take a jammer down at one of them when they have NOTHING but gunners, look at BoB's attempts in FSW (not properly fit) or GS attempts in FAT (only had 20-30 BS on the first 2 attempts) for examples. An active gang defending a well set up POS is extremely challenging, but there's still a slight possibility for the attacker to succeed under some circumstances, or at the very least have a chance at killing SOMETHING that can kill them. Bring a few capitals or a couple supercapitals to defend them and the game becomes incredibly stupid very quickly.
Betha keid	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:37:00 - [142] WOW 5 pages... sooo when is ccp going to reply?
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:47:00 - [143] Originally by: John McCreedy I can't find the thread to quote it but someone suggested whacking Cyno Jammers with the nerf bat. This idea has merrit on the surface but dig a little deeper and you'll start to see problems. Yes, the combination of multiple Titans plus Cyno Jammers is a problem but what about the Alliances that claim space but don't have a Titan? By nerfing or indeed removing Cyno Jammers, you immediately skew the balance of Eve towards the Titan holding Alliance. Furthermore, without the Cyno Jammer as it is today, how could any non-Titan owning Alliance ever hope to keep up in the arms race by building their own? Mulitiple Titans in Cyno Jammed systems are a problem but the problem isn't the Jammer. The problem is, as the original poster alluded to, that multiple Titans should never of been allowed to happen. I'm certain CCP would be the first to admit they grossly underestimated the build costs of these ships because anyone who has read EON issue 1 with the interview with Oveur, he clearly states Titans are (where) supposed to be the Centerpeice to an Alliances fleet, not the fleet itself. Increase the cost of a Titan significantly and implement the idea of disabling the Jammer for X amount of time if a DDD is used and you aproach the problem from an angle that doesn't penalise the smaller Alliances. Have you ever seen what just 20-30 remote repping carriers/ms and a token support fleet can do to a battleship fleet of any size? It simply isn't possible to kill without your own capitals. The amount of DPS required to break a remote repped carrier tank with subcapitals requires huge numbers of people; huge numbers of people create lag, people can't reload or warp in lag, and this means carriers turn into invulnerable killing machines. It's really not much different than going up against multiple titans, albeit it's slightly less frustrating since it requires the defender a few more people and a token amount of coordination to make your fleet completely impotent. Increasing the cost of titans would only do what you're worried about. The big alliances all already have titans so it would just unfairly make it harder for the small alliances to ever catch up.
Piratejoe 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:20:00 - [144] Edited by: Piratejoe on 10/03/2008 22:29:18 One possible solution might be for new non-capital ships that can create a special field that either makes those inside its field immune or offers great immunity too a titans doomsday. This would enable fleets too have a chance when enganging Titans around POS's. Thx Edit: On second thought perhaps something like how a Basilisk works. The Special ship targets one ship per high slot and makes that ship immune. So one anti-doomsday ship can make 4-6 ships immune but not a whole fleet.
Maraleith The Culture Holding Corporation	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:33:00 - [145] The issue is the immense destruction a Doomsday Device causes as it means that multiple titans are unbeatable in a cyno jammed system, with small support. There are two ways to go about fixing the problem; nerf doomsdays, which I really don't think is the right way to go as too many people have invested too much into these ships. The other is to add in a class of ships that scare titan pilots. I would like to see pocket-dreadnaughts, which are basically a marriage of a dreadnaught's siege mode with a battleship (Tier three). Immense DPS, great tanks and tracking which means they can only kill a titan or capital ship. Then by all means put 4 titans on grid; against 20 pocket-dreadnaughts and 100 bs - interesting fights will ensue. The cost of a pocket-dreadnaught should be about the same as a Marauder or Black Ops battleships as a guide and the only capital part needed is the capital Siege Mount. You cannot change the water level. So don't redesign the bridge, just change the cars that can use it.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:40:00 - [146] Titans have been a stupid idea since day one.
Piratejoe 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:43:00 - [147] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Titans have been a stupid idea since day one. I disagree, their fine however CCP didnt think of the Titans + Cyno Jammers + Doomsday combo. They simply need too add a option out their that can counter this while not nerfing everything into the ground.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:54:00 - [148] Originally by: Piratejoe Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Titans have been a stupid idea since day one. I disagree, their fine however CCP didnt think of the Titans + Cyno Jammers + Doomsday combo. They simply need too add a option out their that can counter this while not nerfing everything into the ground. The idea of one click destroying an entire fleet is utterly flawed.
Vincognito Incognito Inc	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:01:00 - [149] The solution is simple.... Get rid of the DD and BUFF the titans with more mobile base capabilities and make them true mobile stations. So if an alliance has 10-20 Titans it just means they have more ways to move and support there military in a large way. Death to the DD because you can't balance something that is the extreme of warfare options.
Von Zarovick The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:05:00 - [150] If anything, titans need a boost, they are roleless atm. But otherwise, nice ships =)
ForkInTheEye Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:29:00 - [151] Originally by: torN Deception Go back to the drawing board on titans, strip out the DDD, turn it into something like the moving station it was originally supposed to be. I don't think there's anything wrong with a superweapon but just a supersized smartbomb is a lazy, uncreative solution. Why not extrapolate a more powerful version of each races "signature" weapon? The Amarr titan could have a giant ***** laser that does a ton of damage. Let's say, for example, it fires for a minute or two or whatever. You can target an enemy, fire, wait for it to kill something, then retarget another enemy and the laser will swing over and continue firing on that enemy. You can keep doing this till the capacitor for the laser runs out. Then it recharges. Wait x amount of time. Rinse. Repeat. The Caldari titan shoots a gigantic, **-off torpedo with a big blast radius. You can probably do similar themed weapons for the other races (rapid fire rail gun for gallente, giant artillery shell for min).
Saldoro Disco Biscuits New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:48:00 - [152] I think most people will agree that Titans aren't the problem. They can be killed even when the double Doomsday a fleet (hello Oort). I think most people will agree Cyno Jammers aren't the problem. They can be taken down although it might cost you a T1 battleship fleet. The problem lies in the combination of both (although there is no problem if the system is attacked when no Titans are online and no, BoB doesn't have 24/7 Titan coverage). Your enemy has many CynoJammed systems and they can't have a Titan in each one. Disallowing a Titan from using a Jump Bridge means that if you suprise attack a system that has no Titans in it the defender can't get a Titan in. This is one solution. Another more drastic yet simple soluition is a simple game mechanic. Do not allow a Titan to warp on grid with a Cyno Jammer. Jammers stay the same, Titans stay the same and never the twain shall meet. ---- Disco Biscuits, Baby!
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:55:00 - [153] The titan "doomsday" could have been so much more creative though. How about making doomsdays an are of EFFECT weapon, that last as long as their cap will... Amarr - All ships in range cease to regenerate cap for the duration of the doomsday. Caldari - Jams all ships for the duration. Gallente - Removes all hp resistances from ships within range for the duration. Minmatar - Scrambles all ships (including super capitals) for the duration. (Whether or not this would also affect your own gang I'm undecided on, I'd tend to say no (otherwise where's the advantage?) but I'm sure there are benefits the other way, too.) Titans, ofc, would be completely immune to all of these affects. You can even take it further, by making it so that the passive affects of the titan (cap regen, armor hp, sig radius, shield hp) only work when the titan is within, say, 100m km of the gang. It still makes them AWESOME platforms, but it changes the ability to one or two shot a fleet down a little bit. Of course, fix the lag please, thanks, because whilst we're unable to do 600 in a system I'd much rather keep the doomsday as it is as otherwise it's IMPOSSIBLE to clear enough people out of a system to be able to do ANYTHING. (and gosh, the code for this is probably already in the database (hi bombs).) Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Xthril Ranger hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:01:00 - [154] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Titans have been a stupid idea since day one. Early ideas on what a titan was going to be was quite different than what hit tranquility. The devs where talking about a huge moveable station with lots of industrial roles. More like a mobile base that corporations could operate out of. At day 1 it was quite a good idea. . you'll never jump alone
Neuraxis Aeon Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:08:00 - [155] Well how about instead of the lag blob and all that we settle wars doing alliance torny style fights. Alliance A wants to attack Alliance B they pick the first system that want to fight for and do an torny style fight win takes system? You could go though each system that an alliance holds and fight like this? Sounds like fun hey =P
Dmitri Vasso Nomads Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:10:00 - [156] I decided to copy paste my own comments from another thread here, as this thread seems to be a little more worthwhile posting in (which is something I rarely do); So what if Titans make it harder to conquer cyno-jammed space? So what if they're overpowered? These ships cost around 50-60 billion isk to produce, they should be good for something. So what if a single alliance has 5 or more of them. They've worked hard to acquire those Titans, and probably deserve them. Having them just means they're able to better protect their space from hostiles, thus making it more viable to hold space, as you need to worry even less about annoying invaders. I believe thats the whole point of being the stronger force - not having to worry about 'lesser' alliances? In effect this just means invading forces have to sacrifice large portions of their fleets, or even use multiple fleets to conquer these so-called 'unconquerable' systems. It's a rather medieval way of doing things, really. Back in the 'dark ages', when invaders had to conquer castles et al, they'd throw wave upon wave of proud warriors at the wall untill they where finally breached. It was just a question of whether the sacrifice was worth it. Though, this could of course mean a stagnation of the entire universe at some point, when everything is cyno-jammed and each system is guarded by their own respectable Titan. I for one enjoyed the old classic 'Clash of the Titans' ;)
Raznarok Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:22:00 - [157] This is the best thread on COAD in ages. Not so much the subject, but the change from smacking is most refreshing. I agree that the Smartbomb, being the end all of weapons is a lazy, crap approach. A cool laser, hybrid or projectile weapon that had to be aimed and fired would have been a bit more sufficient. At least a big MF missile that could explode into hundreds of cruise missiles.
Raznarok Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:26:00 - [158] Originally by: Dianabolic The titan "doomsday" could have been so much more creative though. How about making doomsdays an are of EFFECT weapon, that last as long as their cap will... Amarr - All ships in range cease to regenerate cap for the duration of the doomsday. Caldari - Jams all ships for the duration. Gallente - Removes all hp resistances from ships within range for the duration. Minmatar - Scrambles all ships (including super capitals) for the duration. Of course, fix the lag please, thanks, because whilst we're unable to do 600 in a system I'd much rather keep the doomsday as it is as otherwise it's IMPOSSIBLE to clear enough people out of a system to be able to do ANYTHING. Amarr/Caldari ideas 4tw, tbh.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:26:00 - [159] Titans should have been to dreadnaughts what motherships are to carriers but it looks like CCP is too proud to admit their mistake at this point.
Kusotarre Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:28:00 - [160] Titans used to be invincible, cause they'd just cyno out. That got fixed, and a few titans died. Now, with 2 or more titans in a system on a regular basis, the double, simultaneous doomsday activation has once again made the titan invincible.
Neuraxis Aeon Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:38:00 - [161] When I first heard about eve and titans I thought these ships would have like 20 high slots and stuff like that something like the GTVA colossus from Free Space 2. How about instead of the titan having a super smart bomb they actually have a lot more high slots then most ships this would still make them very good and killing just not small fleet death machines. Just an idea
LingLeng	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:46:00 - [162]
BrainFugger Minmatar Burnout Syndrome SECUWAY.	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:47:00 - [163] Edited by: BrainFugger on 11/03/2008 00:47:32 Time to stop the BS madness?
aQurio Infamous Technologies	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:14:00 - [164] CCP should leave titans as they are just make it so the DDD cost 5 to 10 billion isk a shot making it cost the alliance major isk if they DD spam a enemy. ----------------------- EVE addiction program needed.
Jin Roh Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:32:00 - [165] Fyi, every alliance that has significant space can fund a new titan every 2 months, maybe less. Titans alone are not overpowered. When you get more, you reach critical mass and yes its overpowering + cyno jammers. Something will have to change, whether with titans, their cost, or pos wars in general. The current trend is not sustainable for the long term.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:02:00 - [166] Originally by: Neuraxis Aeon When I first heard about eve and titans I thought these ships would have like 20 high slots and stuff like that something like the GTVA colossus from Free Space 2. How about instead of the titan having a super smart bomb they actually have a lot more high slots then most ships this would still make them very good and killing just not small fleet death machines. Just an idea this this this this thiiiissss ccp
Chomapuraku Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:03:00 - [167] so far, best ideas: doomsday effect other than damage nerf consecutive DD blasts cyno jammers in sov 4 only how about an overhaul of the drone system? every ship gets one drone, and drone ships only get bonus to that one drone's abilities. carriers/MSes get a handful of drones/fighters with big bonuses. or maybe no fighters for carriers, just boosts to gang members' combat abilities, and maybe overhauled/boosted clone vat bays (with carriers getting some of the love)
Alyx Alyn	Posted - 2008.03.11 04:08:00 - [168] The best suggestion in this thread was simply increasing the mass of a Titan so they can't be jump bridged around. Honestly you could probably go ahead and do this for all cap ships really.
Succubu5 Last Beyond Sands Actual Assault	Posted - 2008.03.11 04:14:00 - [169] make the ddd timer 30 minutes instead of 60 cuz there's not enough whine in this thread
Aya The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 05:08:00 - [170] One solution we discussed on TS that might work the best is this: As mentioned before I think not allowing supercaps to jump bridge would be the best option. Say bob wanted to defend NOL with their titans, they would load them all up and Goons/RZR/Ect. could then divert their attention to another cynojammed system. Bob would have the option of repelling the coalition face to face with BS's and not take down the cyno jammer, or remove the cyno jammer allowing both sides to jump in all caps and duke it out. Either way a fair fight is had and the issue of being unable to work around the titan is removed.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.11 06:37:00 - [171] Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:42:15 Originally by: Malachon Draco Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. Well, I dunno what you call it, but making a titan so heavy it cant fit through a jumpportal sure sounds like a nerf to me. Anyway, I didn't start this thread because of cynojammer, lag or the current situation in Delve with regards to Goons ability/inability to take systems from BoB. The reason I started this thread was a few pieces of information, the first was that BoB has 8 titans (which I sorta knew, my last count was at 6 or 7, but hey, whats or 2 more) and then the relative surprise that MM has 5 titans already (I knew they had 1, expected maybe 1 more, but 5 in total...). Then add all the titans RA and AAA have etc etc etc. Now, regardless of all the current stuff going on, extrapolate that for a year, considering that building them gets easier and easier (Sov 4 constellations, once you got the BPO they're not really that expensive, easier to defend the capital shipyard when you already got a few titans in that Sov 4 constellation, value of having more than 1 titan). I would not be surprised to be honest if say MM is aiming to have 10-15 titans by the end of 2008. Same for RA/AAA/BoB. Any Sov 4 alliance who doesn't pour tons of isk into titan construction is stupid at this point. Since all your enemies will be building them. Considering how much isk there is in the game atm, how much money alliances can make off their 0.0 holdings, you're looking at huge numbers of titans everywhere by the end of 2008. Now my question is, is that gonna be good for the game?
Alyx Alyn Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:57:00 - [172] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dianabolic Edited by: Dianabolic on 10/03/2008 16:42:15 Originally by: Malachon Draco Ok so you agree they should be nerfed, all we now need to debate is to what extent No, Malachon, I did not agree that titans, or jammers, needed to be nerfed. I said that the use of the bridge, for a titan (and only a titan) should be nerfed. Well, I dunno what you call it, but making a titan so heavy it cant fit through a jumpportal sure sounds like a nerf to me. Anyway, I didn't start this thread because of cynojammer, lag or the current situation in Delve with regards to Goons ability/inability to take systems from BoB. The reason I started this thread was a few pieces of information, the first was that BoB has 8 titans (which I sorta knew, my last count was at 6 or 7, but hey, whats or 2 more) and then the relative surprise that MM has 5 titans already (I knew they had 1, expected maybe 1 more, but 5 in total...). Then add all the titans RA and AAA have etc etc etc. Now, regardless of all the current stuff going on, extrapolate that for a year, considering that building them gets easier and easier (Sov 4 constellations, once you got the BPO they're not really that expensive, easier to defend the capital shipyard when you already got a few titans in that Sov 4 constellation, value of having more than 1 titan). I would not be surprised to be honest if say MM is aiming to have 10-15 titans by the end of 2008. Same for RA/AAA/BoB. Any Sov 4 alliance who doesn't pour tons of isk into titan construction is stupid at this point. Since all your enemies will be building them. Considering how much isk there is in the game atm, how much money alliances can make off their 0.0 holdings, you're looking at huge numbers of titans everywhere by the end of 2008. Now my question is, is that gonna be good for the game? Titans aren't really too broken at the moment though with the exception of the cynojammer/jump bridge combo that allows them to move in and out of a cynojammed system with impunity.
Mickey Mouse Kendar corp	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:29:00 - [173] instead of nerfing cyno jammers or titans mabye we could try another aproach Eve chronicle This is a story about a jove mothership with a high damage beam weapon.. Would it not be cool if the titan could fit some capital weapons and one main weapon that have high damage tracking good enough to hit moving ships down to cruiser size or bc size. And high damage enough to fry a bs even with good tank When fired it have a 5sec (or something) chargeup timer so when titan have you targeted and start blinking red you have a few sec to get the hell out of there. Mabye give the weapon some area damage around the target as well just to keep it dangerous to blobs As it is now titans are only usefull for about 15 sec on the battlefield after that it warp to safe and cloaks, i want to see the titan warp in with the fleet and staying there for the whole fight
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2008.03.11 10:59:00 - [174] Perhaps the original post would fare better be in Features & Ideas Discussion. There are valid points. We have yet to see the full impact of a titan blob of 10-20 Titans, and until we do, I'd be weary of changing anything further. It's all well and good that the cynojammer+titan combo appears unbeatable, but is it really?
dizzycow Amarr No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:31:00 - [175] In my opinion its importent not to nerf 1-2 titans. Having 1 or 2 titans is still possible for a sniper bs to tank, but it gives the defender the posibility to setup their bs better than the attacker. 3 titans are totaly diffrent from 2 titans, I cant see how you can tank 3 titans in a bs and still have a snipper setup. Personly I have only seen one solution to this problem in here and that is to limit the numbers of dd that can be fired off in one system. Make 2 DD during 60 minute maximum. For each DD the timer is resetted. _________________ "Ask the people of Carthage if violence never solved anything"
maralt Minmatar The seers of truth	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:33:00 - [176] Yup one or two shots of the DDD per grid or system per hour no matter how many titans you have should sort out the multiple titan spams no problem.
Eaiaden Minmatar The Knighthawks Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:53:00 - [177] Arf common guys, offcourse there shouldent be a limit on DD pr systems in a limited time frame, the alliances that have this many titans have spent huge amounts of isk and resources in getting theese behemoths, and earned the right to be tough to get rid off. Its the nature of the game, no matter how big and mean CCP makes the new ships, sooner or later they will be abundant, and make even the powerfull carriers and dreads look weak, just how all MMORPG's are, they evolve. Originally by: Sean Faust The Typhoon is an oddity. It is EXTREMELY versatile and can be fit just about any way you can imagine.
Kafe Kuvarica	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:57:00 - [178] The whining squad keep forgeting that for building titan u need to have investment of 100 bil (titan BPO, set of comp BPOs, mins for it) and add 10-20-30 bill for skills and fitting. On top of that u need to do literaly hundreds of freighter runs in 0.0. After nerfing DDing on remote cyno, I think that balance of titan worth related to titan usefullness is ok. I agree that its hard to take cynojammed system with 2+ titans with it, but its not impossible. If your alliance/s is/are not able to do it then you should maybe try harder instead of whining on CAOD.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:06:00 - [179] Holy crap you guys are dumb, the problem isn't titans it's the ability to use a capital fleet without having to worry about any enemy capital fleet. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Rudi Storm SGL	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:16:00 - [180] The prospect of 4 titans firing off DDs is just silly. Something has to be changed. I would not go so far out to nerf titans ... but would rather see a special bread of cap disabling BS that would need almost the same skills to fly as a capital ship. Some sort of a BS sized vessel that would have a special resists against all 4 kinds of energy emission weapons (DDs or Smartbombs) at would at the same time have a special only on Titans usable Cap Neutralizer (with bonus). Points: -takes skill to fly one and it should be very expensive to buy/fly one -BS sized ship so no problem getting it into a cynojammer system -specialized and therefore only a one trick pony (you know why its there) -should fight the capitals where it hurts the most -> CAP NO CAP = NO CYNO = NO DD But the ship would still be vulnerable to normal weapons and thus not unbeatable. They would offer the attackers a chance to render Titan/Cap blob useless.
Starfall Hammer Starfall Industries	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:09:00 - [181] Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Malachon Draco Announcing you're running away screaming like a little girl does not make it voluntary. If I announce I will do something, I hope it's voluntary. Will you start to rewrite dictionnaries ? I will announce here and now that I wil never date Jessica Alba. The fact I have announced this clearly means it is voluntary and that if I wanted to do I could have her as my gf. I feel much better now, thanks for putting me straight on the meaning of voluntary anda announcements.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:12:00 - [182] Originally by: Starfall Hammer Originally by: Fire Hawk Originally by: Malachon Draco Announcing you're running away screaming like a little girl does not make it voluntary. If I announce I will do something, I hope it's voluntary. Will you start to rewrite dictionnaries ? I will announce here and now that I wil never date Jessica Alba. The fact I have announced this clearly means it is voluntary and that if I wanted to do I could have her as my gf. I feel much better now, thanks for putting me straight on the meaning of voluntary anda announcements. I didn't comment on Fire Hawk because I was simply dumbstruck by his stupidity, so I'm glad you took over for me
Raid Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:20:00 - [183] Up the cost of firing a doomsday from 20 million to 1 billion per shot. Done...
H1ne Gallente Office linebackers Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:53:00 - [184] A doomsday is very often used against a sniper fleet, a sniper fleet operates at 150k on average, limit the doomsday to 100-125k, this gives both sides a fighting chance rather than one person clicking f1 and wiping out a fleet. Brings risk back into eve while still leaving the element of chance for the BShip fleet. Failing that the idea of a targetted weapon is a good one.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:51:00 - [185] Edited by: Princess Jodi on 11/03/2008 14:53:32 If the concern is that Eve will have too many Titans, make them require Maintainence which costs a decent amount. Something similar to a Office Rent - automatically billed and if not paid the Titan won't be able to jump or something. If for example the cost to keep a Titan combat-ready is 1 bill/week, then alliances with 10 Titans will have a considerable upkeep cost. That will translate into less total Titans in the long term, as they will cripple the Alliance wallet's ability to finance other projects. And when the costs finally get too high or an alliance disbands, their titans can become floating hulks which we can all explore for and reanimate for a new alliance.
Raznarok Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:10:00 - [186] Originally by: Yorda Holy crap you guys are dumb The sweet smell of irony.
Dynamic Fire Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:17:00 - [187] I different approach to be considered, Why not think about a new type of ship for the support fleet to counter DD's. For example : A cruiser type vessal that has the ability to put up a temporary force field shielding its own fleet aginst DD's only> This of course would need much further thought on to how to make it fair but i thinks its a decent idea to be considered
ZelRox Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:44:00 - [188] Tbh titans already got nerfed. It is the pos and sov warfare that needs to be looked at. ---------------------- BiH 4tw
Tabouli GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:49:00 - [189] Originally by: Raznarok Originally by: Yorda Holy crap you guys are dumb The sweet smell of irony. look how dumb you are
Chomapuraku Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:53:00 - [190] so it's settled, then. gimp the combination of DDD and cyno jammer. no DDDs allowed when cynojammer is up. deal with next cheap game mechanic as it arises. thread won.
Glenda Giggles	Posted - 2008.03.12 02:19:00 - [191] Question is what should any 1 Pilot be able to do in a ship. How many DD should a Titan be able to release before it needs to reload - My thought "1" - DD as it is should probably require sufficient fuel that it would use the majority of a non expanded cargo area. Should a DD have a delay which is announced - example an alert in local of voice that a DD ignition has been detected, with a short timer has the energy builds up. Should range change or how damage is dealt - currently a DD impacts everying thing in a rather extreme range. Should it be like a wave that lessens as the wave is spread out over a larger area. So maybe you keep current damage at the area directly around the Titan and then have it reduced as the explosion covers a greater area.
Tearavygh Quillam	Posted - 2008.03.13 08:47:00 - [192] So, now that nearly everyone is able to have titans, they'll just just get nerfed? Typical.
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.13 08:51:00 - [193] Originally by: Tearavygh Quillam So, now that nearly everyone is able to have titans, they'll just just get nerfed? Typical. Its hardly ccps fault that now goons have failed to remove BOB from 0.0 and a lot of their allies are sick of taking space for them that goons are now screaming for some new nerfs.
Alyx Alyn	Posted - 2008.03.13 10:35:00 - [194] Originally by: Glenda Giggles Question is what should any 1 Pilot be able to do in a ship. How many DD should a Titan be able to release before it needs to reload - My thought "1" - DD as it is should probably require sufficient fuel that it would use the majority of a non expanded cargo area. A more sensible approach to this would be to require the DD to be loaded with a large quantity of fuel rather then steal the Titans cargo space.
Tekumze Wolf	Posted - 2008.03.13 10:49:00 - [195] Edited by: Tekumze Wolf on 13/03/2008 10:52:55 How about: Cynojammer can only be onlined if the neighboring systems have the same sov as the cynojammer system. Simply makes the borders of ones empire what they should be.. a risky area.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2008.03.13 11:02:00 - [196] Alot more space would help with the titan thing. eve is too polarised at the moment. You're basically on one side or the other which is a bit pants. Instead of one 'Eve war' there should be five or more going on at once! Space should be so large that one superpower may never encounter another on the other side of space because the distance is too huge! Obviously theres hardware restrictions involved with this. Another way to reduce this capital ship hilarity a bit more is to reduce the jump range of a capital so it can't cross Eve in 6-7 jumps or whatever it takes currently. Also the titan cargohold thing, make it so they can only carry enough fuel for one or two DD's. This makes them more effective for defending than for attacking without extremely well organised logistics and perhaps commiting jump freighters and the like to the field. To be honest I wouldn't get too worked up about it. In time its going to become quite obvious that its getting out of hand. I honestly don't think the developers envisioned an Eve where alliances would be so large and so rich that they could easily afford to field 2 titans nevermind a fleet of them. I've personally never understood the DD concept and what made them think it would be a good idea, I guess its some kind of science fiction fantasy realised. I mean all said and done it is odd gameplay that seems kinda contradictory to 'fun'. It's currently not hindering gameplay that much but i think it will in time if it stays like this and new titans continue to be constructed at the current rate. --------------- you all smell!
Xthril Ranger	Posted - 2008.03.13 11:13:00 - [197] The real reason ccp got to change the doomsday is that there is no fun with a weapon that make all the people on both sides of a fight to leave the grid when they show up. . you'll never jump alone
KIATolon	Posted - 2008.03.13 11:48:00 - [198] Originally by: welsh wizard Alot more space would help with the titan thing. I actually disagree with this, although I think I'm on my own. Atm the dominating alliances have way too much space, and so end up with a huge income from moons (and I think it's unbalanced), which would be fixed if you removed a handful of regions. I cant speak for the North but the south is definitely underpopulated.
Ugluuk	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:05:00 - [199] In 1 year the Thanatos is the same ship the Thorax was 2 years ago..
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:10:00 - [200] Wouldnt it be simplier to add a DD jamming pos module that requires no sov? Attacker would have to take down cyno jammer without caps. Defender would have to take down DD jammer with the help of its caps but without the backup of doomsdays. The only problem I see with this is the attacker would probably spam multiple DD jammers instead of keeping the one alive, maybe make it very expensive or fitting intensive. - Gob IXC Recruitment
maralt	Posted - 2008.03.13 12:23:00 - [201] I suppose all these cyno jammer/titan/sov issues could be solved by making the taking of systems a total piece of pi*s to do like with a few cruisers type easy lol. At least then all these big blob alliances would then have to defend all the space they own instead of just the bit being invaded by large fleets. I think the map would look a lot more colorful and their would be a lot more smaller alliances fighting each other for space tbqh.
Torze	Posted - 2008.03.13 17:37:00 - [202] Not sure if this is a good idea really but, they could make the DD damage the titan that fired it. Maybe direct haul damage. Since it is such a massive amount of energy being released and it's all being built up inside the shields/armor.
John McCreedy	Posted - 2008.03.13 21:27:00 - [203] Originally by: Dianabolic ~Generally good idea For this idea to work though, there will need to be a 100% stacking penalty on Titans to defeat the object of having multiple Titans per system otherwise there's no change to the problem we face now. As for the lag, I've said it repeatedly - introduce a hard cap on the number of ships per system. Blobbing begats blobbing and right now we're trapped in a vicious circle we're unnable to escape from. Make a Difference Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Yorda	Posted - 2008.03.13 21:47:00 - [204] Edited by: Yorda on 13/03/2008 21:47:30 Originally by: John McCreedy Originally by: Dianabolic ~Generally good idea For this idea to work though, there will need to be a 100% stacking penalty on Titans to defeat the object of having multiple Titans per system otherwise there's no change to the problem we face now. As for the lag, I've said it repeatedly - introduce a hard cap on the number of ships per system. Blobbing begats blobbing and right now we're trapped in a vicious circle we're unnable to escape from. If you get a number cap on a system you'll just see one side keep a bunch of people logged in constantly thus limiting one side. Or what happens when someone tries to log into a system allready capped? Can he not login because the system is at it's limit? I'd rather have the lag, atleast it effects both sides equally. Originally by: nlewis jammers are the meatshield [Bob] wish their pets were
Psorion	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:30:00 - [205] Forced induction, the only replacement for displacement. Titans, the only solution for the T1 Frigate/cruiser Blob! Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Quartex	Posted - 2008.03.13 22:56:00 - [206] Titans = Need for speed initiative to reduce blobbing. Titans = Largely fixed defence. Fixed defence = Can be circumvented, outflanked etc To kill an Alliance = You need to collapse it from the inside by making logging on dull/frustrating and for most; non-ISK generating. No need to "take" a home system to achieve the latter - denying them access to space around their key systems will do this. Denying access to the majority of moons goes a long way too. All said, the price of Titans needs to go up in time, to keep pace with game inflation/wealth creation.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2008.03.13 23:19:00 - [207] Originally by: John McCreedy Increase the cost of a Titan significantly and implement the idea of disabling the Jammer for X amount of time if a DDD is used and you aproach the problem from an angle that doesn't penalise the smaller Alliances. this
Armaan Aliastra	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:37:00 - [208] Time for a 2nd server. Start skills from scratch. No Cap Ships/Titans. No POS spamming. Couple of NPC stations in drone regions. Some new counter for logoffski. Slight nano nerf (speed is good but up to a level). Destructable Stations. Less lag. No alt postings. No threadnaughts. Smarter NPCs, where's Jove? More hosted events. NPC empire wars. No local chat pilot listings, better scan system.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:08:00 - [209] Originally by: KIATolon Originally by: welsh wizard Alot more space would help with the titan thing. I actually disagree with this, although I think I'm on my own. Atm the dominating alliances have way too much space, and so end up with a huge income from moons (and I think it's unbalanced), which would be fixed if you removed a handful of regions. I cant speak for the North but the south is definitely underpopulated. I half agree and half disagree.. It may or maynot actually be underpopulated, but it's definately under used.. few ppl NPC or mine in 0.0 as running lvl 4 missions is generally safer.. There are lots of other factors on control of space.. but i would say the main 1 is standings.. it's not surprising that the fewer ppl, that are attacking you, the more space you can control.. the large alliances commonly just nap up with those around them.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:23:00 - [210] Problem does not lie within titan/cynojammer/sovereignty or even lag. Problem lies within game fundamentals. If you have access to ships reasonably powerful, the playerbase will try to have as many as possible. I guess what devs and most players would like to see are fleets like in various trailers, with a titan acting as a centerpiece, a few mommys around, a bunch of carrier and then assorted subcapitals. Yup, for a while we had fleets like this, when there were less than 5 titans in the entire game, and let's say 15 moms. Now if you want some limited RL analogy, there's a limit to military growth, tied to manpower, public relations, budget, maintenance costs ... These factors mean nothing in this game. - Manpower? 1 pod pilot=1 ship, be it a rifter or a ragnarok, crews don't exist in game and the Eve universe does not really put any value on non-capsuleer life. - Public relations? In Eve, there is only war, every item produced in this game is either designed for combat or to help create more combat geared equipment. even non fighting careers lead to mining/researching/building weapons in one form or another. Public opinion cannot object to a superpower building the stronges possible armada, there's simply nothing else to build. - budget? It's been said over an over, the playerbase is just too rich to care about this. period. - Maintenance cost. Once built, a ship costs nothing to operate (apart from ammo/fuel costs). Yeah, I know the fuel bill on an active Titan is scary, but once again, compared to the wealth of alliances, it is not that much. In "peace" times (i.e when titans aren't operating 24/7 and using their bridges/doomsdays) having a Titan in space does not cost more than having a rookie ship. So yup, there is no factor to limit the proliferation of Titans. If they're useful, those who can afford them will build them. Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 03:42:00 - [211] Quote: Maintenance cost. Once built, a ship costs nothing to operate (apart from ammo/fuel costs). Yeah, I know the fuel bill on an active Titan is scary, but once again, compared to the wealth of alliances, it is not that much. In "peace" times (i.e when titans aren't operating 24/7 and using their bridges/doomsdays) having a Titan in space does not cost more than having a rookie ship. hmmm good stuff I think supercapitals should probably have a passive cost associated with them as well, even when they are just sitting at a pos doing nothing, they should be bleeding isk for it to not go into a mothballed state.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 03:43:00 - [212] not only would it either make less... it would make them FRIGGIN USED MORE!!!
Moonlight Express Moonlight Express Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 03:48:00 - [213] Originally by: Syath Quote: Maintenance cost. Once built, a ship costs nothing to operate (apart from ammo/fuel costs). Yeah, I know the fuel bill on an active Titan is scary, but once again, compared to the wealth of alliances, it is not that much. In "peace" times (i.e when titans aren't operating 24/7 and using their bridges/doomsdays) having a Titan in space does not cost more than having a rookie ship. hmmm good stuff I think supercapitals should probably have a passive cost associated with them as well, even when they are just sitting at a pos doing nothing, they should be bleeding isk for it to not go into a mothballed state. So does that mean that when you sit in a station all day, you should bleed isk to the station owner for rent and power used?
Mr Mozzie Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:18:00 - [214] Edited by: Mr Mozzie on 17/03/2008 04:19:19 Originally by: Moonlight Express Originally by: Syath hmmm good stuff I think supercapitals should probably have a passive cost associated with them as well, even when they are just sitting at a pos doing nothing, they should be bleeding isk for it to not go into a mothballed state. So does that mean that when you sit in a station all day, you should bleed isk to the station owner for rent and power used? Personally, I rather like the idea of running costs for supercapitals at least. As for conventional ships, I see that as presenting some problems. The main problem being that new players, or players who neglect their accounts could easily be bankrupted if they are not careful.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:24:00 - [215] well i mean you would never go into negative isk because then the ship would just become unusable with a hefty retrofitting cost.
Jennai The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:24:00 - [216] Originally by: Quartex To kill an Alliance = You need to collapse it from the inside by making logging on dull/frustrating and for most; non-ISK generating. No need to "take" a home system to achieve the latter - denying them access to space around their key systems will do this. this isn't really possible with empire alts, jump bridges, jump freighters, and carriers unless the alliance is being camped into their last cynojammed station system.
Mr Mozzie Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:40:00 - [217] Originally by: Syath well i mean you would never go into negative isk because then the ship would just become unusable with a hefty retrofitting cost. There is a question of when ships would require running costs. If ships were to deteriorate when the player is offline, they might legitimately not log into the game for several weeks only to come back and find that their ships are all unusable. This could be prevented by allowing loopholes such as only applying costs to unpackaged ships, or active ships, or ships in space. But each of these fixes has its downsides. Each presents loopholes that will generate a higher workload for the player. I'm not saying that these problems are intractable. Perhaps they are worthwhile compromises. But they need to be thought out.
Syath Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 04:50:00 - [218] Quote: There is a question of when ships would require running costs. If ships were to deteriorate when the player is offline, they might legitimately not log into the game for several weeks only to come back and find that their ships are all unusable. Thats why the cost is taken from the alliance wallet, I mean it is an alliance ship right?
Mr Mozzie Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:03:00 - [219] Originally by: Syath Thats why the cost is taken from the alliance wallet, I mean it is an alliance ship right? What happens to people in an NCP corporation? Like I said it is an idea that needs to be thought about.
Mister Xerox A Multitude of Blues	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:51:00 - [220] Originally by: Chowdown Lets not have a mad talk about tians getting nerfed, lets simply make them 10x more expensive ...... everyones happy Especially the ones who've built them. Instaprofit. CCP learned that mistake with large towers.
Trupplupagus Settling Tank	Posted - 2008.03.17 05:55:00 - [221] Originally by: Mister Xerox Originally by: Chowdown Lets not have a mad talk about tians getting nerfed, lets simply make them 10x more expensive ...... everyones happy Especially the ones who've built them. Instaprofit. CCP learned that mistake with large towers. I missed what happened there...did they just up the price suddenly?

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