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petition to remove NPC ECM

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Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:17:00 - [1] Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting!
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:17:00 - [2] Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting!
Chuck Skull BBK Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:26:00 - [3] No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. --- Also available in 'sober'
Chuck Skull BBK Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:26:00 - [4] No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. --- Also available in 'sober'
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [5] How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now?
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [6] You could always not run Caldari missions and try the Gallente or Minmatar. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [7] How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now?
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [8] You could always not run Caldari missions and try the Gallente or Minmatar. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Orin Valari on 15/03/2008 04:52:29 Originally by: Chuck Skull No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. I can tank for a minute 40 seconds. It's just so freaking irritating to be constantly jammed. a minute 40 seconds here... then not jammed for maybe 30 seconds before jammed again. It adds nothing to the game but frustration.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Reem Fairchild How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now? whoa nelly. Like I said, I would be fine if bounties were reduced on Guristas at the expense of their ECM or something. Just let me keep my guns firing instead of staring at a screen for 40 seconds of every minute with nothing to do.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:54:00 - [11] Maybe if enough people get frustrated they will move out of the Caldari regions and reduce the lag in the mission running hubs. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Zeba Maybe if enough people get frustrated they will move out of the Caldari regions and reduce the lag in the mission running hubs. hehe good point I guess. Even if the ECM wasn't a set random chance so I could choose to fit ECCM or something. but an NPC's chance to jam you is the same regardless of your sensor strength.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:56:00 - [13] Yes since what we really need is even less variety in missions. I would be happy if there was a way to counter it, but to remove it altogether? Nope. ...
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:00:00 - [14] But what variety does it really add? I mean it isn't flavorfull. It's just annoying. But okay, I concede. Let us at LEAST fit to counter it. Fitting an ECCM would be worth it to me when up against Guristas. It's just that being jammed adds absolutely nothing to my enjoyment of this game. Or even make specialized ships that jam you... instead practically any Gurista ship can jam you.
Arana Tellen The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:01:00 - [15] I believe its mostly just the cruisers that do it... --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:03:00 - [16] Negative. Cruisers, HACs, Battleships, frigates. Don't think I've seen any of the BCs do it yet.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Yes since what we really need is even less variety in missions. I would be happy if there was a way to counter it, but to remove it altogether? Nope. I too hate getting jammed. The only reasonable way to counter it would be to throw away a slot for ECCM or something. With as tight as mission fits are, nobody would do it. And if variety is sitting around for 20 to 60 seconds doing nothing and constantly re-targetting then I'm all for monotony.
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:21:00 - [18] Forget it Op. That would be a boost to Missioners if it occured, thus it will never happen.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:25:00 - [19] NPCs already suck, no need to go removing their EWAR, that would make WC, Extravaganza, and Blockade into pure turkeyshoots. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:28:00 - [20] Did you miss the part where I said go ahead and make them worth less bounty? The idea is that you still make the same amount of isk for the time invested. Say I am fighting 10 bad guys. But because of ECM it takes me 20 minutes to kill them, and I make 1 million isk. Now, say ECM was removed but they were made tougher to kill so now I could kill 10 in 20 minutes and make 1 million isk because of their improved tank or whatever... OR I kill 10 in 10 minutes and make 500k. Also, aren't all missions already turkey shoots? Do people still kid themselves into thinking missions are fun, and that ECM adds to the fun?
Dr McTurtle Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. B: FoF Cruise missiles doesn't care if you have a lock. C: Drones doesn't care if you have a lock. D: There are other NPC's then guristas. Don't like their way? Go to some other area. Summary: Stop whining, adapt.
kelpster Nameless Shipyards Incorperated R-I-P	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Orin Valari Originally by: Reem Fairchild How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now? whoa nelly. Like I said, I would be fine if bounties were reduced on Guristas at the expense of their ECM or something. Just let me keep my guns firing instead of staring at a screen for 40 seconds of every minute with nothing to do. agreed, it's frustrating
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Orin Valari Did you miss the part where I said go ahead and make them worth less bounty? The idea is that you still make the same amount of isk for the time invested. Say I am fighting 10 bad guys. But because of ECM it takes me 20 minutes to kill them, and I make 1 million isk. Now, say ECM was removed but they were made tougher to kill so now I could kill 10 in 20 minutes and make 1 million isk because of their improved tank or whatever... OR I kill 10 in 10 minutes and make 500k. Also, aren't all missions already turkey shoots? Do people still kid themselves into thinking missions are fun, and that ECM adds to the fun? I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Dr McTurtle A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. B: FoF Cruise missiles doesn't care if you have a lock. C: Drones doesn't care if you have a lock. D: There are other NPC's then guristas. Don't like their way? Go to some other area. Summary: Stop whining, adapt. A: Who uses two ECCM's in missions? Either your tank or your cap will suffer such that you'll be running missions one level below your ship class. B: FoF missiles cut your DPS in half. Who uses these in missions? C: Well, I guess if drones accounted for all of your DPS then there'd be no reason to complain. D: Can't say too much there. Allow me to one-up your summary and suggest "Semper Fie, bro"
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:55:00 - [25] Quote: I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru but... why go make a cup of tea when you... you know... could be playing a video game? Does anyone really feel anymore immersed because of NPC jamming?
Mara Kell Steel Beasts	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:01:00 - [26] I agree with you idea, but not because of ECM, but because of being perma tripple/quad hit by tracking disruptors in some shansha missions. Its just stupid to wait like 15 Minutes until my T2 medium drone squad has chewed through those 8 EW cruisers like in blockade for example. And unlike ECM those tracking disruptors use a plain 50% chance to hit or not to hit.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:05:00 - [27] seriously. I mean missioning is already boring. People who do it for the sheer excitement are missing a LOT of what EVE has to offer. So what is missioning good for? grinding sec status and isk. Don't make it more frustrating than it already has to be.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Orin Valari Quote: I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru but... why go make a cup of tea when you... you know... could be playing a video game? Does anyone really feel anymore immersed because of NPC jamming? Well if you want to get into the ISK/minute of it, you earn more ISK/minute going for a cup of tea when they're jamming you than between missions :) Seriously though, shooting NPCs is like shooting the alts of someone running a million accounts at once. They do nothing of note. EWAR is the one thing they do that's actually more interesting than them sat there shooting a single gun that animates like a broadside, and shooting one missile launcher. I don't think you're wholly wrong, though. I think NPC EWAR should be toned down, and its behaviour brought closer into line with that of real EWAR. The biggest problem with NPCs is that they're totally unrealistic. They don't get the same nerfs/boosts as us, their weapons don't behave like ours, and their tanks vary from the piddling weak to the nber-strong, with no discernable difference in loot dropped between weak enemies and strong. There's a lot of work to be done on NPCs, and I don't think that totally ridding them of their EWAR isn't the way to do it. It's on the right track, it's just an extreme length of one of the things that needs to be done. -Dru Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:15:00 - [29] I can agree with that. I think one step would be to make ECM (or hell, EW) specialized NPCs so you know you should pick them off ASAP (this is arguably in place now, but try running The Assault and seeing how many different ship classes can jam you). And again, making it behave more like player ECM could make it more interesting as well. I guess there is a much larger problem in that missions are flat out, uncompromisingly boring. It might be cool (and possibly less server intensive??) to make the ships behave somewhat more like competent players, and have the engagements become much smaller. Instead of taking out 15 battleships maybe I'm up against 3, but they're highly advanced. Just a thought.
Kransthow AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam B: FoF missiles cut your DPS in half. Who uses these in missions? People who are jammed?

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