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Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:17:00 - [1] Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting!
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:17:00 - [2] Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting!
Chuck Skull BBK Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:26:00 - [3] No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. --- Also available in 'sober'
Chuck Skull BBK Corp	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:26:00 - [4] No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. --- Also available in 'sober'
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [5] How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now?
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [6] You could always not run Caldari missions and try the Gallente or Minmatar. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [7] How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now?
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:32:00 - [8] You could always not run Caldari missions and try the Gallente or Minmatar. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Orin Valari on 15/03/2008 04:52:29 Originally by: Chuck Skull No. First you're not permajammed. Thats every jammer NPC running one cycle on you consecutively. They usually only do this once. If you can't tank for 1min 40seconds, then you wouldn't last much longer without jammers anyway. I can tank for a minute 40 seconds. It's just so freaking irritating to be constantly jammed. a minute 40 seconds here... then not jammed for maybe 30 seconds before jammed again. It adds nothing to the game but frustration.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Reem Fairchild How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now? whoa nelly. Like I said, I would be fine if bounties were reduced on Guristas at the expense of their ECM or something. Just let me keep my guns firing instead of staring at a screen for 40 seconds of every minute with nothing to do.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:54:00 - [11] Maybe if enough people get frustrated they will move out of the Caldari regions and reduce the lag in the mission running hubs. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Zeba Maybe if enough people get frustrated they will move out of the Caldari regions and reduce the lag in the mission running hubs. hehe good point I guess. Even if the ECM wasn't a set random chance so I could choose to fit ECCM or something. but an NPC's chance to jam you is the same regardless of your sensor strength.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.15 04:56:00 - [13] Yes since what we really need is even less variety in missions. I would be happy if there was a way to counter it, but to remove it altogether? Nope. ...
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:00:00 - [14] But what variety does it really add? I mean it isn't flavorfull. It's just annoying. But okay, I concede. Let us at LEAST fit to counter it. Fitting an ECCM would be worth it to me when up against Guristas. It's just that being jammed adds absolutely nothing to my enjoyment of this game. Or even make specialized ships that jam you... instead practically any Gurista ship can jam you.
Arana Tellen The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:01:00 - [15] I believe its mostly just the cruisers that do it... --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:03:00 - [16] Negative. Cruisers, HACs, Battleships, frigates. Don't think I've seen any of the BCs do it yet.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Yes since what we really need is even less variety in missions. I would be happy if there was a way to counter it, but to remove it altogether? Nope. I too hate getting jammed. The only reasonable way to counter it would be to throw away a slot for ECCM or something. With as tight as mission fits are, nobody would do it. And if variety is sitting around for 20 to 60 seconds doing nothing and constantly re-targetting then I'm all for monotony.
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:21:00 - [18] Forget it Op. That would be a boost to Missioners if it occured, thus it will never happen.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:25:00 - [19] NPCs already suck, no need to go removing their EWAR, that would make WC, Extravaganza, and Blockade into pure turkeyshoots. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:28:00 - [20] Did you miss the part where I said go ahead and make them worth less bounty? The idea is that you still make the same amount of isk for the time invested. Say I am fighting 10 bad guys. But because of ECM it takes me 20 minutes to kill them, and I make 1 million isk. Now, say ECM was removed but they were made tougher to kill so now I could kill 10 in 20 minutes and make 1 million isk because of their improved tank or whatever... OR I kill 10 in 10 minutes and make 500k. Also, aren't all missions already turkey shoots? Do people still kid themselves into thinking missions are fun, and that ECM adds to the fun?
Dr McTurtle Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. B: FoF Cruise missiles doesn't care if you have a lock. C: Drones doesn't care if you have a lock. D: There are other NPC's then guristas. Don't like their way? Go to some other area. Summary: Stop whining, adapt.
kelpster Nameless Shipyards Incorperated R-I-P	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Orin Valari Originally by: Reem Fairchild How about they, at the same time, increase the tanking and dps on npc ships to be the same as an equivalent player ship with tech 1 fittings and moderate skills (at least) instead of them being so pathetically weak like they are now? whoa nelly. Like I said, I would be fine if bounties were reduced on Guristas at the expense of their ECM or something. Just let me keep my guns firing instead of staring at a screen for 40 seconds of every minute with nothing to do. agreed, it's frustrating
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Orin Valari Did you miss the part where I said go ahead and make them worth less bounty? The idea is that you still make the same amount of isk for the time invested. Say I am fighting 10 bad guys. But because of ECM it takes me 20 minutes to kill them, and I make 1 million isk. Now, say ECM was removed but they were made tougher to kill so now I could kill 10 in 20 minutes and make 1 million isk because of their improved tank or whatever... OR I kill 10 in 10 minutes and make 500k. Also, aren't all missions already turkey shoots? Do people still kid themselves into thinking missions are fun, and that ECM adds to the fun? I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Dr McTurtle A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. B: FoF Cruise missiles doesn't care if you have a lock. C: Drones doesn't care if you have a lock. D: There are other NPC's then guristas. Don't like their way? Go to some other area. Summary: Stop whining, adapt. A: Who uses two ECCM's in missions? Either your tank or your cap will suffer such that you'll be running missions one level below your ship class. B: FoF missiles cut your DPS in half. Who uses these in missions? C: Well, I guess if drones accounted for all of your DPS then there'd be no reason to complain. D: Can't say too much there. Allow me to one-up your summary and suggest "Semper Fie, bro"
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 05:55:00 - [25] Quote: I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru but... why go make a cup of tea when you... you know... could be playing a video game? Does anyone really feel anymore immersed because of NPC jamming?
Mara Kell Steel Beasts	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:01:00 - [26] I agree with you idea, but not because of ECM, but because of being perma tripple/quad hit by tracking disruptors in some shansha missions. Its just stupid to wait like 15 Minutes until my T2 medium drone squad has chewed through those 8 EW cruisers like in blockade for example. And unlike ECM those tracking disruptors use a plain 50% chance to hit or not to hit.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:05:00 - [27] seriously. I mean missioning is already boring. People who do it for the sheer excitement are missing a LOT of what EVE has to offer. So what is missioning good for? grinding sec status and isk. Don't make it more frustrating than it already has to be.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Orin Valari Quote: I didn't miss that part, I just thought it would be superfluous. It takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK. Remove the ECM and raise their hitpoints, it takes you 20minutes to kill 10 NPCs, earning you a million ISK and using up more ammunition and time reloading. If you're going to change something to have zero effect, why change it? As it stands, I can warp into a room of Guristas, switch my tank on, go make a cup of tea, come back and they've finished jamming so I can set to work killing them. Missions are pretty much turkey shoots, but EWAR is the last vestige of immersion, allowing the idea that NPCs aren't just bags of numbers to cling on for dear life until CCP makes them a little more... real. -Dru but... why go make a cup of tea when you... you know... could be playing a video game? Does anyone really feel anymore immersed because of NPC jamming? Well if you want to get into the ISK/minute of it, you earn more ISK/minute going for a cup of tea when they're jamming you than between missions :) Seriously though, shooting NPCs is like shooting the alts of someone running a million accounts at once. They do nothing of note. EWAR is the one thing they do that's actually more interesting than them sat there shooting a single gun that animates like a broadside, and shooting one missile launcher. I don't think you're wholly wrong, though. I think NPC EWAR should be toned down, and its behaviour brought closer into line with that of real EWAR. The biggest problem with NPCs is that they're totally unrealistic. They don't get the same nerfs/boosts as us, their weapons don't behave like ours, and their tanks vary from the piddling weak to the nber-strong, with no discernable difference in loot dropped between weak enemies and strong. There's a lot of work to be done on NPCs, and I don't think that totally ridding them of their EWAR isn't the way to do it. It's on the right track, it's just an extreme length of one of the things that needs to be done. -Dru Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:15:00 - [29] I can agree with that. I think one step would be to make ECM (or hell, EW) specialized NPCs so you know you should pick them off ASAP (this is arguably in place now, but try running The Assault and seeing how many different ship classes can jam you). And again, making it behave more like player ECM could make it more interesting as well. I guess there is a much larger problem in that missions are flat out, uncompromisingly boring. It might be cool (and possibly less server intensive??) to make the ships behave somewhat more like competent players, and have the engagements become much smaller. Instead of taking out 15 battleships maybe I'm up against 3, but they're highly advanced. Just a thought.
Kransthow AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam B: FoF missiles cut your DPS in half. Who uses these in missions? People who are jammed?
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:20:00 - [31] Originally by: Kransthow Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam B: FoF missiles cut your DPS in half. Who uses these in missions? People who are jammed? So you swap out your ammunition when you're being target jammed? What do you get off like 1 volley, and then switch back? Sounds like a pain in the ass.
Anaalys Fluuterby Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:23:00 - [32] Just make them follow the rules so ECCM works. My alt was jammed for 18 consecutive cycles the other night in one mission. Got 2-3 minutes of firing off and was then jammed for 12 more cycles. In a level 2 Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Anaalys Fluuterby Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Dr McTurtle A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. Wrong. The Devs stated a couple of months ago that ECCM jamming is a straight percentage chance based on the rat. ECCM has no effect, nor does your ship's sensor strength. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Ma'ax A'ax	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:29:00 - [34] so what you are saying is you aren't a mission specialist, and you really don't know how to run missions efficiently, so can ccp pretty please make it easier for you. not signed.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 06:41:00 - [35] Originally by: Ma'ax so what you are saying is you aren't a mission specialist, and you really don't know how to run missions efficiently, so can ccp pretty please make it easier for you. not signed. What I'm saying is that PVP is fun, fighting in low-sec is fun. Running missions and spending hours changing my ammunition type to shoot off a volley or two, and repeatedly doing this, is not fun, and I find it amazing that anyone alive or dead would disagree.
Andrue Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.15 09:10:00 - [36] Edited by: Andrue on 15/03/2008 09:11:30 Learn which rats jam (it's not all of them) and target them first. If you do that it's less of a problem. The chance of them jamming seems to be inversely proportional to their size. Frigates jam more frequently than BS. ..and don't bother wasting your time fitting ECCM it has no effect. Oh, and @ the OP:Sorry but you are carebear. You are asking for the game to be changed because you can't adapt. Classic symptoms. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Alex Raptos The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.15 09:30:00 - [37] I'm neutral to it all, I mean, I run 2 (soon 3 >.>) characters in missions, one tank, one Main damage, and soon a logistics for those missions that my tank just sucks to when at its best. In my experience guristas are probably the easiest to tank, and 3 / 4 races main weapon systems damage is effective (EM not counted, though its not the worst rat to come up against) The only challenging thing about them is the ECM, but in my experience I've been non-stop jammed for up to 5 minutes at a time, got off two volleys (which in a nighthawk is about 10 seconds) and then I'm off to make food for another 5 minutes. Its all about if you aggro too many HAC/Assault Frigates with your Battleships, which in some of the missions is inevitable. My vote is, make Rats follow the same rules as players with ewar.
Strak Yogorn Mind Warpers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:34:00 - [38] no.. missions dont need to be easier, but harder.
Vanessa Vasquez planet eyeQ Ultio Animi Causa	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:49:00 - [39] Originally by: Strak Yogorn no.. missions dont need to be easier, but harder. i totally agree. I love beeing ECMed, webbed, disrupted, but i admit it wouldn't be bad to get get a counter against. ECCM should work against NPCs imo.
Jolliejoe Quad Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:49:00 - [40] Edited by: Jolliejoe on 15/03/2008 10:50:12 Missions are pathetic as far as bounties go... And you want to make them even less? LOL. What black hole do you come from? Missions should become challenging, not just harder or less worth. How about some random triggers or some unexpected things? But again, bounties are pathetic so don't touch that.
Ga'len Your Assets Relocated and Redistributed	Posted - 2008.03.15 10:58:00 - [41] Put simply, no. It's a normal game mechanic, it's balanced and it works as intended. Leave it alone.
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:07:00 - [42] i fully agree with the OP and would like everyone to hear my tale of woe. i was in 0.0 and not only did the npcs use ewar on me they also shot at me. This really is not on, the npcs were only worth a million isk each. Can we make the following changes. No ewar No shooty shooty And perhaps make them a billion isk bounty. - - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
Aquidus Nefron Department of Defence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:27:00 - [43] As much as this may sound like whining, I have to agree. Being out ratting in 0.0, taking a near 30 min to kill 3 dire cruisers is very anoying, and drones take forever to chew through um, unless you are in a drone ship. I spend double if not triple the missiles on these guys because by the time I can fire again, they have fully regained their shield. I don't think he want ECM and other EW completly removed, but anychance it can be lowered, or less affective? If we are doing missions or ratting, it's not because we are trying to simulate pvp, if i wanna do that, i go pvp. there is plenty of PVp in this game, would be nice to make money so I could do it more.
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 11:44:00 - [44] Edited by: Pohbis on 15/03/2008 11:47:06 Oh noes! Te mizions r 2 hard! Come on, seriously, you were drunk posting this right? Right?! Why don't you just ask for a button you can push every hour, that gives you 20m so you can go PvP some more? If you can't run missions, you don't deserve to get to use it as an income for PvP. You love to PvP? Get better at that instead then... oh, no you need sec status I see. Get better at ganking then ;)
Failway State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 12:11:00 - [45] I think ECM should stay, combat in a futuristic game should be more than trading bullets.
Brainless Bimbo Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 12:25:00 - [46] lol, did you know it happens on lvl 1 missions too, its easy to live with if you use what's between your ears. Now that those ships are "icon'd" in your Overview its even easier, you know who to keep your distance from, who to target with long FoE missiles or drones. this thread is a pointless whine with no substance. ...... continues overleaf.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 13:30:00 - [47] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. You are the definition of carebear. "Oh noes!! I can't do something!! CCP, you must change the game to suit me!!
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:21:00 - [48] hahaha man you guys are vindictive little jerks! "adapt or die" Sounds pretty hard man, mission running is serious business! I am absolutely amazed that people think rats using ECM is cool and that being frustrated by it means I can't hack it in EVE. you guys are too funny :) I love internet tough guy syndrome. Anyways, all I'm saying is that it's annoying as hell, adds nothing to the enjoyment of the game. I don't propose making missions easier. Hell, I wouldn't mind if they were harder either... but make them hard in a FUN way not a "oh cool jammed AGAIN" way. I agree with the poster that said random triggers or something would be sweet, expect the unexpected, have to think a little bit! The fact is, PVE in EVE is BORING. fixing ECM would help a tiny bit, and make it less frustrating.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:24:00 - [49] Originally by: Ga'len Put simply, no. It's a normal game mechanic, it's balanced and it works as intended. Leave it alone. how is NPC jamming balanced? How would removing it (but compensating for making the missions easier in some way) make it unbalanced? NPC jamming is not balanced, it is frustrating.
Hasak Rain Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 14:39:00 - [50] I fly missions for Amarr and occasionally get offered a Gurista mission. I just refuse them. They are a huge waste of time and there is nothing fun about sitting there spamming the target button.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:32:00 - [51] Originally by: Pohbis Edited by: Pohbis on 15/03/2008 11:47:06 Oh noes! Te mizions r 2 hard! Come on, seriously, you were drunk posting this right? Right?! Why don't you just ask for a button you can push every hour, that gives you 20m so you can go PvP some more? If you can't run missions, you don't deserve to get to use it as an income for PvP. You love to PvP? Get better at that instead then... oh, no you need sec status I see. Get better at ganking then ;) Oh noez, I r like being target jammed, itz funz! I support the "push button" idea, so long as we can still push it while we're having the time of our lives being target jammed and waiting for dire NPC's shields to regenerate.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:33:00 - [52] ECCM, Drones, FoFs or bring a wingman. 4 ways to counter this without CCPs involvment.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Miki Fin Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. You are the definition of carebear. "Oh noes!! I can't do something!! CCP, you must change the game to suit me!! In that case, bring back nanophoons.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Lord Fitz ECCM, Drones, FoFs or bring a wingman. 4 ways to counter this without CCPs involvment. If you use ECCM, drones, or FoF's then you pretty much have to bring a wingman. So, zero ways to solo a mission in a reasonable amount of time.
Ioci Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:47:00 - [55] Mission 'difficulty' does leave alot to be desired. 4 waves x 4 deadspace x 3 orbit ranges = many, many, many trips back to base to refit. ECM to pretty much make the mission an Objective only mission works fine for me because most of these ECM junky NPCs drop the same garbage all the other ones do. As to what to do to make it harder, I'm not sure. There is my problem. I don't know what to say to fix it so I can't file too much complaint. As far as making the NPC's tank better. Fight a guardian. All kinds of resists there and they rep back much faster than I do with no visible cap reduction. Though they do take short breaks, if you don't have optimal damage type, it's usually just long enough for you to get to 90% to then watch them rep it all back while you go on a 5 minute miss fest. Sorry, I don't need more of that time sink.
Jaketh Ivanes Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:56:00 - [56] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Dr McTurtle A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. Wrong. The Devs stated a couple of months ago that ECCM jamming is a straight percentage chance based on the rat. ECCM has no effect, nor does your ship's sensor strength. The dev's might have stated that, but my experience ingame is different. I've done The Assault (loads og Gurista ships) in a Geddon with and without ECCM. When it was without ECCM, i was jammed a lot. When I used an active ECCM, the jamming went down a whole lot and I finished the mission in about 1 hour or so.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 15:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Edited by: Earl de''Hamsterdam on 15/03/2008 15:37:35 Originally by: Lord Fitz ECCM, Drones, FoFs or bring a wingman. 4 ways to counter this without CCPs involvment. If you use ECCM, (only) drones, or FoF's then you pretty much have to bring a wingman. So, zero ways to solo a mission in a reasonable amount of time. This just in: Eve-Online is a multiplayer game. ECCM is not going to slow you down any. Drones can kill the ECM ships and then you can kill the rest normally. If you're doing this in a BS, you have plenty of drone space for this. It won't take long. If you bring someone else you can do the missions faster anyway. I think that's something they're trying to encourage as much as possible, originally lvl 4 missions were supposed to be totally impossible to solo. It didn't take long before everyone threw that theory out the window.
Esmenet Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:00:00 - [58] There is just a single mission that features heavy jamming. Dont take it. If you still cant handle it, go mission outside (shock) of caldari space.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:03:00 - [59] I can't take the heat so I guess I really should just get out the kitchen.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:12:00 - [60] Originally by: Lord Fitz This just in: Eve-Online is a multiplayer game. ECCM is not going to slow you down any. Drones can kill the ECM ships and then you can kill the rest normally. If you're doing this in a BS, you have plenty of drone space for this. It won't take long. If you bring someone else you can do the missions faster anyway. I think that's something they're trying to encourage as much as possible, originally lvl 4 missions were supposed to be totally impossible to solo. It didn't take long before everyone threw that theory out the window. I don't know how many Guristas level 4's you've done, but even the NPC ravens can target jam. It's nice being able to solo things, but maybe that's just me, becuase I don't pay for multiple accounts.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:16:00 - [61] Stop whining. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
DasDizzy Terr0r F0rce Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! lrn2usedrones (dominix ftw tbfh) In federate gallente, armor tanks YOU
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:21:00 - [63] I didn't realize so many people thought being target jammed was a fun and vital part of the game! get em tigers!
Nariana Verex Foundation of Extropian Independents	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:30:00 - [64] Originally by: Esmenet There is just a single mission that features heavy jamming. Dont take it. If you still cant handle it, go mission outside (shock) of caldari space. I find that some agents inside Caldari space give fewer Guristas missions than the places I was running missions in Gallente or Amarr space. Try not missioning for the Caldari Navy, for one. Find a nice quiet system that doesn't have an average population in the triple digits, and a nice quiet agent. They don't have to have 18-20 quality for you to make decent money. Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space.
DogSlime Wilde Cards	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:19:00 - [65] Missions should have more variety, not less. If they take out NPC jamming, then it just takes even more variety out of already dull missions. We should have MORE interesting tactics used by NPCs, not less.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:39:00 - [66] I agree. When I am in a mission and not being jammed I am often thinking "man, this is so boring. If only something as flavorful as constantly being jammed would occur I would enjoy this much more"
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:42:00 - [67] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! what are you flying that is constantly jammed? Maybe you should add Counter ECM? Use drones? ----------------- Friends Forever
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:42:00 - [68] please read the thread. ECCM does not affect NPC jamming.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:49:00 - [69] The jamming heavy missions are a variation of the game 'Concentration' as you have to remember the name of the ship jamming you and then primary it. Once those few jamming ships are toast then finish the mission jam free. Now you know how to beat a jamming mission in an acceptable time frame. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Zeba The jamming heavy missions are a variation of the game 'Concentration' as you have to remember the name of the ship jamming you and then primary it. Once those few jamming ships are toast then finish the mission jam free. Now you know how to beat a jamming mission in an acceptable time frame. Except when there are 10 ships jamming you, 3 or 4 of which are battleships
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:03:00 - [71] Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Zeba Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. The Assault
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Orin Valari I agree. When I am in a mission and not being jammed I am often thinking "man, this is so boring. If only something as flavorful as constantly being jammed would occur I would enjoy this much more" "...for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me)." 1. Give it a rest. 1m40s is hardly permajammed. If you did PvP like you say, you would know that. 2. Try to come up with suggestions on how to keep missions more than ctrl+click and F1, F2 , F3 etc. if you'r proposal was to be implemented. 3. Move to non-caldari space if the Caldari NPCs are "not fun" for you.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. The Assault K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. The Assault Mission Briefing: We are under attack! A fleet of Guristas Pirates just cam out of warp near here and started to pulverize our defense drones. They are using some sort of scrambling device to deactivate our sentry guns as well. We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on. If you don't then I'm afraid we'll have to negotiate our way out of this or keep our fingers crossed that backup arrives in time. I'm afraid I can only give you 2 hours to get this done, Ferahdi. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Amaron Ghant Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:53:00 - [75] Qute happy here with the way NPC ecm works in missions. If anything make it harder. Force me to dither between damage mods and ECCM mods.
Alex Raptos The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:04:00 - [76] Originally by: Amaron Ghant Qute happy here with the way NPC ecm works in missions. If anything make it harder. Force me to dither between damage mods and ECCM mods. ECCM doesnt work, say it with me now, E-C-C-M Does Not Work, E-C-C-M Does Not Work.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:24:00 - [77] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam The Assault So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system?
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:29:00 - [78] You guys are pulling a lot of ******** conclusions. We're just saying that NPC ECM is broken. It's frustrating, it adds no flavor (regardless of people claiming it breaks the monotony...), and should be reconsidered. The sub-conversation was brought up talking about how missions could be made more fun and exciting. Stop showing off your internet jerkiness. If you really think NPC ECM is an awesome part of missions I would love to hear your reasoning. Remember it wasn't in missions originally. It was added much to the chagrin of a lot of missioners.
Rawthorm The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:31:00 - [79] Edited by: Rawthorm on 15/03/2008 19:32:05 I think the problem issue isnt that there is anything wrong with NPC ECM, but rather that its a bit lopsided while compared to the other rats. Around the map people can npc with little to stand in the way but in the north you have your ratting rate dropped quite a fair bit due to it. I think all the NPC ewar needs a bit of a revisit and reballancing. (Maybe give all races a secondary but very weak ewar effect like painting or nos for variation, and non guristas rats ecm as their secondary) (Tho while talking about it, rats need to be redisigned from scratch to be like player ships. Much less of them but more of a challenge instead of "hard" missions just spaming u with lots of npcs. Maybe even have npc's have a retreat chance so u have to npc with a pvp kit to tackle it down.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Miki Fin So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system? When did I say that? To qyote myself, "ECM is fun if you like staring at a wall or watching paint dry."
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:38:00 - [81] Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:43:00 - [82] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's. Hours? The point of the second ship is to target the ships jamming the tank. That should only take a few minutes if you use teamwork and call off the targets. Then both ships wtfpwn the rest of the room. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:51:00 - [83] Current record for me is 14 jams in a row from 3 dire gurista cruisers in a belt and i was dead set on killing them so i refused to warp out
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:57:00 - [84] Originally by: Orin Valari The sub-conversation was brought up talking about how missions could be made more fun and exciting. Stop showing off your internet jerkiness. If you really think NPC ECM is an awesome part of missions I would love to hear your reasoning. Remember it wasn't in missions originally. It was added much to the chagrin of a lot of missioners. Because it brings a bit of tactics into missions. You have to check you opponents, identify immediate threats, and then decide on a battle plan. Small frigates become threats because of web, jam and scram and have to be picked off ( much like in PvP ). You can't just target the ship with the most DPS and work your way down from there. If you start removing everything expect DPS from missions, they'll become nothing more than warp in, target, F1, F2. You have a problem with jamming, I guess because you mostly use missles in missions, so being tracking disrupted or the target of any other EW doesn't irk you much. Other people use other weapons and if you remove jamming, some will lobby for the other EW to be removed as well. Dumbing down the missions even further. They already are the weakest link in EVE. They should be made more challenging. Not less. Other MMOs just slap on a ton of hitpoints and jack up the DPS. Making for some incredibly dull and boring PvE. In EVE there's a unique opportunity to actually implement tactics because of the way the game is build, with lots and lots of modules and lots of decisions to be made. If anything, you should lobby for ECCM to be effective, bring up the issue of you jamming the NPCs back not being an option. Argue that increasing the tactical difficulty of missions will slow down the "secure" ISK making of Empire dwellers and thereby reduce the discrepancy between risk vs reward of Empire vs 0.0/lowsec. Anything else than asking for CCP to dumb down the AI. If you truly aren't a carebear as you claim. ... and please, never ever bring up the argument again that something "wasn't there originally". EVE evolves, or else we would all still be in Empire mining veldspar.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:58:00 - [85] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's. Hours? The point of the second ship is to target the ships jamming the tank. That should only take a few minutes if you use teamwork and call off the targets. Then both ships wtfpwn the rest of the room. Took me about an hour to kill all the jammers
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:04:00 - [86] For that one specific mission then yeah it would take about that long to kill all the jammers but thats the point of the mission. It's designed to be a total biach to complete. For any other mission with jammers or even ratting in the belts bring along a second ship and all is good. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:04:00 - [87] A so called pvp'er whining about npc's. thats soo funny!!! _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:08:00 - [88] Yeah I guess that is pretty funny. Look. I'm not saying I don't know how to deal with it. It's not an epic battle plan to shoot the jammers first. But for those first few minutes while you're killing them off and keep seeing that annoying jam cycle in the bottom center of your screen, you cannot tell me that it's remotely fun for you. When I see that I usually sigh and stare at the screen until I can target again, fully expecting to be jammed again momentarily. If you see above I already advocated making ECCM effective. I think that would be a very fair trade. It would also give ships with better sensor strangths a bit of an advantage in that department. I also advocate making missions more fun because... well... they aren't any fun right now. Make the AI more intelligent, make the battles require more tactics than deciding the order in which to kill stuff. As for other types of EW, I admit it hasn't affected me much, but I think pretty much all of the same arguments can be made. Make it more in line with player's abilities. I love this "EVE is tough, adapt or die!" response mentality. Yeah EVE is hard, and that's what makes it rule. But adding boring ECM from NPCs doesn't make it hard or more exciting, it makes it more frustrating and that's about it.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:19:00 - [89] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Miki Fin So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system? When did I say that? To qyote myself, "ECM is fun if you like staring at a wall or watching paint dry." I'm sorry, so you don't find one mission fun and you want a whole rework of the mission system?
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:23:00 - [90] Edited by: Orin Valari on 15/03/2008 20:23:59 good correlation! ECM isn't fun no matter what mission it is. Doing a crossword puzzle is frustratingly fun. It's frustrating trying to think of a word on the tip of your tongue. Dealing with Customer Service representatives when you have a problem is frustrating, sans fun. Running missions is boring, but it's at least passably fun. You can chat and mostly zone out. It's like doing a crossword puzzle, but with much less active brain matter. Being jammed, however, takes the fun and chains it to a wall while you stare blankly for 20 seconds. Missions can be fun and hard. It's fun to realize your tank is breaking and you need to gtfo and make it out by the skin of your teeth. ECM is hard without any fun whatsoever.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:24:00 - [91] Originally by: Miki Fin I'm sorry, so you don't find one mission fun and you want a whole rework of the mission system? I don't find ECM fun. There is no "strategy" fighting ECM NPC's, other than trying to kill them first. It isn't stimulating, it's boring.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:31:00 - [92] you're right I never thought of all the possibilites.. you can... kill them. Or bring a friend and he can kill them. You must have read up on your sun tzu and your machiavelli cause you sir are a prince and a tactician. I guess I have a lot to learn about true tactics!
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:33:00 - [93] Originally by: Orin Valari you're right I never thought of all the possibilites.. you can... kill them. Or bring a friend and he can kill them. I don't get your point there tbh. The objective in all kill missions is to...err...kill the npcs?
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:36:00 - [94] My point is you make it sound like the mission is your canvas, and the plethora of tactics available to you are your paints. But it isn't as exciting as you're making it sound. I can right click, load defenders... which do crap damage I can bring a friend, okay I'll give you that one I can fit ECCM.. oh wait! or... I can kill them when I'm not jammed. Am I missing anything? Brilliant tactics!
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:38:00 - [95] Uh-BuuuuH!?!
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:48:00 - [96] Tactics are for pvp and missions are for grinding lp and isk. Missions don't really have any tactical depth designed into them past bringing a friend for the occasional hard one. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Ghalid The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:18:00 - [97] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Maybe you should add Counter ECM? Originally by: Amaron Ghant Force me to dither between damage mods and ECCM mods. Originally by: Lord Fitz ECCM, Drones, FoFs or bring a wingman. 4 ways to counter this without CCPs involvment. Originally by: Dr McTurtle A: ECCM works. without ECCM I get jammed like you do, with 2 midslot ECCM I get jammed maybe 1-2 cycles per hour. Orin you're such a whiny little n00b! Why don't you just fit ECCM! Oh wait. ECCM doesn't work? So all of these hardened mission runners have no idea what they're talking about? Huh. Did any of you even bother to read the first post or was the urge to show off your e-*** too great? To reiterate: Originally by:** Lord Fitz ECCM is not going to slow you down any. That's right Fitz! In addition to not slowing you down, it will do precisely nothing! Any way you look at it, the spirit of Orins argument is correct. Missions are boring as hell, and jamming is obnoxious. You all say "adapt" and develop "new tactics" to deal with the issue. How about a list - McTurtle style! A: When you're jammed, drones decide to shoot whoever the hell they please. In my experience they don't value ewar targets any higher than anything else. B: FoF missiles do **** damage, which means that it takes forever to kill anything of any size. Good tactic. C: Find a new, non Caldari Navy agent. Isn't this another way of saying "take your ball and go home"? Good tactic... Let's try this instead: A: More intelligent NPC's. That is, design them in such a way as they don't just hit the CPU equivalent of F1 - Fx. B: Make NPC damage and strength more on par with actual players. C: Make NPC ships behave as they do against other players. Why is it that I can't neut the hell out of an NPC to shut down his tank? D: Make NPC modules behave as they do against other players. That means fixing ECCM (It doesn't do anything you idiots).
Alex Raptos The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's. Caldari navy are not the only ones to offer those, any caldari combat oriented corp does.
Ghalid The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 21:52:00 - [99] Originally by: Andrue Oh, and @ the OP:Sorry but you are carebear. You are asking for the game to be changed because you can't adapt. Originally by: Miki Fin You are the definition of carebear. "Oh noes!! I can't do something!! CCP, you must change the game to suit me!! You both fit the definition of ignorant. You simply can't fathom the idea that there is vast room for improvement in missions. These reactions are simply mind boggling. Hey guys, how about we make missions really cool and make it so that you can never target anything. Really cool! Adapt or die right?

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