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petition to remove NPC ECM

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Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:16:00 - [61] Stop whining. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
DasDizzy Terr0r F0rce Rule of Three	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! lrn2usedrones (dominix ftw tbfh) In federate gallente, armor tanks YOU
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:21:00 - [63] I didn't realize so many people thought being target jammed was a fun and vital part of the game! get em tigers!
Nariana Verex Foundation of Extropian Independents	Posted - 2008.03.15 16:30:00 - [64] Originally by: Esmenet There is just a single mission that features heavy jamming. Dont take it. If you still cant handle it, go mission outside (shock) of caldari space. I find that some agents inside Caldari space give fewer Guristas missions than the places I was running missions in Gallente or Amarr space. Try not missioning for the Caldari Navy, for one. Find a nice quiet system that doesn't have an average population in the triple digits, and a nice quiet agent. They don't have to have 18-20 quality for you to make decent money. Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space.
DogSlime Wilde Cards	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:19:00 - [65] Missions should have more variety, not less. If they take out NPC jamming, then it just takes even more variety out of already dull missions. We should have MORE interesting tactics used by NPCs, not less.
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:39:00 - [66] I agree. When I am in a mission and not being jammed I am often thinking "man, this is so boring. If only something as flavorful as constantly being jammed would occur I would enjoy this much more"
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:42:00 - [67] Originally by: Orin Valari Okay. I am not a carebear. I love to PVP. But I also like to keep my security status up so I will spend a few hours every now and then grinding some lvl 4s for sec and isk. It really boils my blood to be perma-jammed by every single class of ship NPCs (Guristas) can bring to the table. If the purpose of this was to reduce the isk made by mission runners please PLEASE just reduce the bounties or make them tougher to kill. It is infuriating to be perma-jammed for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me). Especially since you can't compensate (ECCM doesn't work against NPCs). Seriously, if I make the same amount of isk running them that's fine, just at least let me be shooting! what are you flying that is constantly jammed? Maybe you should add Counter ECM? Use drones? ----------------- Friends Forever
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:42:00 - [68] please read the thread. ECCM does not affect NPC jamming.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:49:00 - [69] The jamming heavy missions are a variation of the game 'Concentration' as you have to remember the name of the ship jamming you and then primary it. Once those few jamming ships are toast then finish the mission jam free. Now you know how to beat a jamming mission in an acceptable time frame. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 17:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Zeba The jamming heavy missions are a variation of the game 'Concentration' as you have to remember the name of the ship jamming you and then primary it. Once those few jamming ships are toast then finish the mission jam free. Now you know how to beat a jamming mission in an acceptable time frame. Except when there are 10 ships jamming you, 3 or 4 of which are battleships
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:03:00 - [71] Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Zeba Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. The Assault
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Orin Valari I agree. When I am in a mission and not being jammed I am often thinking "man, this is so boring. If only something as flavorful as constantly being jammed would occur I would enjoy this much more" "...for a minute and 40 seconds (the current NPC record against me)." 1. Give it a rest. 1m40s is hardly permajammed. If you did PvP like you say, you would know that. 2. Try to come up with suggestions on how to keep missions more than ctrl+click and F1, F2 , F3 etc. if you'r proposal was to be implemented. 3. Move to non-caldari space if the Caldari NPCs are "not fun" for you.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:34:00 - [74] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba Kill them first. And what mission has that many at once? Been awhile since I ran any missions and only remember having less than 10 jammer ships at any one time and usually those were frigs and cruisers. When the mission had BS jammers they were usually the only ones to jam and numbered about 2~4. Guess its time to roll out the mission Raven and see whats up. The Assault K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. The Assault Mission Briefing: We are under attack! A fleet of Guristas Pirates just cam out of warp near here and started to pulverize our defense drones. They are using some sort of scrambling device to deactivate our sentry guns as well. We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on. If you don't then I'm afraid we'll have to negotiate our way out of this or keep our fingers crossed that backup arrives in time. I'm afraid I can only give you 2 hours to get this done, Ferahdi. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
Amaron Ghant Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.15 18:53:00 - [75] Qute happy here with the way NPC ecm works in missions. If anything make it harder. Force me to dither between damage mods and ECCM mods.
Alex Raptos The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:04:00 - [76] Originally by: Amaron Ghant Qute happy here with the way NPC ecm works in missions. If anything make it harder. Force me to dither between damage mods and ECCM mods. ECCM doesnt work, say it with me now, E-C-C-M Does Not Work, E-C-C-M Does Not Work.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:24:00 - [77] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam The Assault So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system?
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:29:00 - [78] You guys are pulling a lot of ******** conclusions. We're just saying that NPC ECM is broken. It's frustrating, it adds no flavor (regardless of people claiming it breaks the monotony...), and should be reconsidered. The sub-conversation was brought up talking about how missions could be made more fun and exciting. Stop showing off your internet jerkiness. If you really think NPC ECM is an awesome part of missions I would love to hear your reasoning. Remember it wasn't in missions originally. It was added much to the chagrin of a lot of missioners.
Rawthorm The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:31:00 - [79] Edited by: Rawthorm on 15/03/2008 19:32:05 I think the problem issue isnt that there is anything wrong with NPC ECM, but rather that its a bit lopsided while compared to the other rats. Around the map people can npc with little to stand in the way but in the north you have your ratting rate dropped quite a fair bit due to it. I think all the NPC ewar needs a bit of a revisit and reballancing. (Maybe give all races a secondary but very weak ewar effect like painting or nos for variation, and non guristas rats ecm as their secondary) (Tho while talking about it, rats need to be redisigned from scratch to be like player ships. Much less of them but more of a challenge instead of "hard" missions just spaming u with lots of npcs. Maybe even have npc's have a retreat chance so u have to npc with a pvp kit to tackle it down.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:36:00 - [80] Originally by: Miki Fin So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system? When did I say that? To qyote myself, "ECM is fun if you like staring at a wall or watching paint dry."
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:38:00 - [81] Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:43:00 - [82] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's. Hours? The point of the second ship is to target the ships jamming the tank. That should only take a few minutes if you use teamwork and call off the targets. Then both ships wtfpwn the rest of the room. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:51:00 - [83] Current record for me is 14 jams in a row from 3 dire gurista cruisers in a belt and i was dead set on killing them so i refused to warp out
Pohbis Neo T.E.C.H.	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:57:00 - [84] Originally by: Orin Valari The sub-conversation was brought up talking about how missions could be made more fun and exciting. Stop showing off your internet jerkiness. If you really think NPC ECM is an awesome part of missions I would love to hear your reasoning. Remember it wasn't in missions originally. It was added much to the chagrin of a lot of missioners. Because it brings a bit of tactics into missions. You have to check you opponents, identify immediate threats, and then decide on a battle plan. Small frigates become threats because of web, jam and scram and have to be picked off ( much like in PvP ). You can't just target the ship with the most DPS and work your way down from there. If you start removing everything expect DPS from missions, they'll become nothing more than warp in, target, F1, F2. You have a problem with jamming, I guess because you mostly use missles in missions, so being tracking disrupted or the target of any other EW doesn't irk you much. Other people use other weapons and if you remove jamming, some will lobby for the other EW to be removed as well. Dumbing down the missions even further. They already are the weakest link in EVE. They should be made more challenging. Not less. Other MMOs just slap on a ton of hitpoints and jack up the DPS. Making for some incredibly dull and boring PvE. In EVE there's a unique opportunity to actually implement tactics because of the way the game is build, with lots and lots of modules and lots of decisions to be made. If anything, you should lobby for ECCM to be effective, bring up the issue of you jamming the NPCs back not being an option. Argue that increasing the tactical difficulty of missions will slow down the "secure" ISK making of Empire dwellers and thereby reduce the discrepancy between risk vs reward of Empire vs 0.0/lowsec. Anything else than asking for CCP to dumb down the AI. If you truly aren't a carebear as you claim. ... and please, never ever bring up the argument again that something "wasn't there originally". EVE evolves, or else we would all still be in Empire mining veldspar.
Earl de'Hamsterdam The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 19:58:00 - [85] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Zeba K. Thats your problem. The Assault in not meant to be efficiently ran as a solo mission. Bring a friend or alt next time and you will have no issues with it. The giveaway for these types of missions is the 'We request that you gather a group of battle-harened pilots and take them on.' line that gets tossed into the briefing. You can solo them but your not going to do it in any reasonable amount of time. Fair enough, although in this particular mission the person who tanks can expect to do little to nothing except sit there for an hour or two. However, EW NPCs are found in a variety of other missions offered by the Caldari Navy. I personally run CN missions because I want one of those CNR's. Hours? The point of the second ship is to target the ships jamming the tank. That should only take a few minutes if you use teamwork and call off the targets. Then both ships wtfpwn the rest of the room. Took me about an hour to kill all the jammers
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:04:00 - [86] For that one specific mission then yeah it would take about that long to kill all the jammers but thats the point of the mission. It's designed to be a total biach to complete. For any other mission with jammers or even ratting in the belts bring along a second ship and all is good. --------------------- Q: WTF! Why?! A: Because I can. ---------------------
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:04:00 - [87] A so called pvp'er whining about npc's. thats soo funny!!! _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:08:00 - [88] Yeah I guess that is pretty funny. Look. I'm not saying I don't know how to deal with it. It's not an epic battle plan to shoot the jammers first. But for those first few minutes while you're killing them off and keep seeing that annoying jam cycle in the bottom center of your screen, you cannot tell me that it's remotely fun for you. When I see that I usually sigh and stare at the screen until I can target again, fully expecting to be jammed again momentarily. If you see above I already advocated making ECCM effective. I think that would be a very fair trade. It would also give ships with better sensor strangths a bit of an advantage in that department. I also advocate making missions more fun because... well... they aren't any fun right now. Make the AI more intelligent, make the battles require more tactics than deciding the order in which to kill stuff. As for other types of EW, I admit it hasn't affected me much, but I think pretty much all of the same arguments can be made. Make it more in line with player's abilities. I love this "EVE is tough, adapt or die!" response mentality. Yeah EVE is hard, and that's what makes it rule. But adding boring ECM from NPCs doesn't make it hard or more exciting, it makes it more frustrating and that's about it.
Miki Fin Independant Union of Rangers	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:19:00 - [89] Originally by: Earl de'Hamsterdam Originally by: Miki Fin So one mission gives you difficulty and you want a whole rework of the mission system? When did I say that? To qyote myself, "ECM is fun if you like staring at a wall or watching paint dry." I'm sorry, so you don't find one mission fun and you want a whole rework of the mission system?
Orin Valari The Sycorax Syndicate The Cooperative	Posted - 2008.03.15 20:23:00 - [90] Edited by: Orin Valari on 15/03/2008 20:23:59 good correlation! ECM isn't fun no matter what mission it is. Doing a crossword puzzle is frustratingly fun. It's frustrating trying to think of a word on the tip of your tongue. Dealing with Customer Service representatives when you have a problem is frustrating, sans fun. Running missions is boring, but it's at least passably fun. You can chat and mostly zone out. It's like doing a crossword puzzle, but with much less active brain matter. Being jammed, however, takes the fun and chains it to a wall while you stare blankly for 20 seconds. Missions can be fun and hard. It's fun to realize your tank is breaking and you need to gtfo and make it out by the skin of your teeth. ECM is hard without any fun whatsoever.

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