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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tarminic So what's your idea Ethen? Remove the ability to pay for Eve with ISK and remove GTC sales for real life money. The direct result of your "brilliant" idea would be a sharp drop in subscriber numbers (from people that can't or won't play if they have to pay), combined with a ramping up of RMT-er activities (since that would be the only way to get ISK, and those that want ISK will get it), leading to disastruous in-game economic consequences... and it all just gets much, MUCH worse. To put it just as eloquently as you have already put it... "idiot". 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:58:00 - [32] The same every other MMOG out there handles it? Maybe CCP should ask Blizzard for tips on how to run an MMOG?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The same every other MMOG out there handles it? Maybe CCP should ask Blizzard for tips on how to run an MMOG? So how do they handle it, Ethen? Please, enlighten us. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:59:00 - [34] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 16:05:51 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The same every other MMOG out there handles it? Maybe CCP should ask Blizzard for tips on how to run an MMOG? There IS absolutely no other MMO out there that even REMOTELY resembles EVE's economic model. And in case you have to mention WOW, WOW has a much worse "goldfarmer" problem than EVE. Maybe Blizzard should ask CCP for assistance instead ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Edited by: Ethen Bejorn on 08/04/2008 15:41:45 My point is, and CCP admits it in their blog, they are hypocrites in the eyes of thier paying customers. Do you think it is fair that 4 year old players with hundreds of billions of isk, people in 0.0 alliance which own Dyspro moons, or tech 2 BPOs, get to play Eve for free? I use isk to buy gtc, I am none of the above stated players. I am not a 4 year old player, I don't even have a billion isk in my wallet let alone hundreds of millions, I don't live in 0.0, I'm not in an alliance let alone one with moons and I don't have any T2 BPO. Care to exaggera...I mean elaborate a little more?
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:00:00 - [36] Edited by: Ethen Bejorn on 08/04/2008 16:01:44 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tarminic So what's your idea Ethen? Remove the ability to pay for Eve with ISK and remove GTC sales for real life money. The direct result of your "brilliant" idea would be a sharp drop in subscriber numbers (from people that can't or won't play if they have to pay), combined with a ramping up of RMT-er activities (since that would be the only way to get ISK, and those that want ISK will get it), leading to disastruous in-game economic consequences... and it all just gets much, MUCH worse. Yeah sure, your doom crying excuses won't change my mind. I see it as less lag for those who actually pay for the game and support CCP and Eve's development. If you are worried about inflation, reduce isk faucets and increase isk sinks. Ban ISK sellers as you catch them which it seems they are already doing fairly well. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Yeah sure, your doom crying excuses won't change my mind. I see it as less lag for those who actually pay for the game and support CCP and Eve's development. If you are worried about inflation, reduce isk faucets and increase isk sinks. Pretty simple if you ask me. Well, the general sentiment is PRO-GTC-trade, you're one of the exceptions. Also, it's CCP's official position, and one that does make sense. I couldn't care less if YOU change your mind, as long as most of the others can reasonably understand both your and CCP's reasoning, and side with either one. Those that don't like the way CCP handles it are free to stop playing. Those that keep playing can either accept that this is the best overall solution, or keep whining about it uselessly. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Lance Fighter Safe Haven North Star Confederation	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:04:00 - [38] I agree rather wholeheartedly. Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that doesnot have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance towards people with sigs.
Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:04:00 - [39] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Pretty simple if you ask me. [/quote Don't believe CCP did ask you. The only thing simple is your feeble argument. You have an isk farming alt? selling some isk on the side? I really don't see how cpp's gtc policy can get you so worked up when it really has no bearing on your personal game play. In the mean time, I'm off to play some EVE free of real world cash cost to me.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:05:00 - [40] So this really has nothing to do with the overall health of the game to you, does it? It's about your righteous anger and the how unfair it is to you that people can sell GTCs. I'm not going to address your "just reduce isk faucets omg" argument unless you ask me to because honestly, it wouldn't work and I'm not interested in explaining why unless you are. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

Hamfast Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:12:00 - [41] LetÆs see, I must be really Evil, I pay for 2 Wow accounts every month so my wife can play... I should make her pay for them... If I want to help some unknown player by paying for there account for a month I must be really evil... all you pirates hear me, I am EVIL!!! And here I thought I was just being nice... I agree the Blog should be a sticky, the Crime and Punishment forums as well with a monthly report on ISK removed from play and players banned (Numbers, not names) Note to self, I think I should be more evil and buy some ETC's to sell... I am going to Ruin Eve by helping people play!!! GIVE ME YOUR STUFF (1 ETC's worth at a time)... --------*****-------- Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter... So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:12:00 - [42] Yup, my bet's on the whole "I hate ISK buyers and ISK sellers, can not accept any system that allows them to exist unpunished in any shape or form, and damn the consequences" thingy too. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Akita T Yup, my bet's on the whole "I hate ISK buyers and ISK sellers, can not accept any system that allows them to exist unpunished in any shape or form, and damn the consequences" thingy too. Basically, yes, but I don't feel the consequences are nearly as bad as you (CCP) are trying to make them.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Akita T Yup, my bet's on the whole "I hate ISK buyers and ISK sellers, can not accept any system that allows them to exist unpunished in any shape or form, and damn the consequences" thingy too. Basically, yes, but I don't feel the consequences are nearly as bad as you (CCP) are trying to make them. So, again, do you have any logic to back this up aside from the fact that if things WERE as bad as we were saying it would make your idea unrealistic and detrimental? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:18:00 - [45] Edited by: Ethen Bejorn on 08/04/2008 16:20:32 Do you? I have my 18+ years of MMOG gaming experience to know what the truth is.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:38:00 - [46] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 16:41:32 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Edited by: Ethen Bejorn on 08/04/2008 16:20:32 Do you? I have my 18+ years of MMOG gaming experience to know what the truth is. FORMAL LOGIC: Given this: 1. Farmers make up 5-10% of EVE's population 2. Farmers generate ISK at 8-10 times the rate of a normal player If 1 and 2 are true: 3. Farmers generate 30-50% of EVE's inflation Given this: 4. Farmer activity is dependent on the demand for purchasable ISK 5. The GTC trade fulfills 50-75% of the demand for purchasable ISK You can deduce this: 6. If GTC trade is discontinued, the demand for purchasable ISK fulfilled by farmers will increase 100-300% If 4 & 6 is true: 7. Farmer activity will increase by 100-300% If 7 and 1 is true: 8. Farmers will make up 10-30% of EVE's population If 8 and 2 are true: 9. Farmers will generate 45-60% of EVE's inflation Any questions? Of course, I'm not showing how the actual rate of inflation would change, but I'd be happy to that since those numbers support my argument as well. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:43:00 - [47] You must be taking lessons from that Eve economy guy.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:56:00 - [48] Nah, it's pretty much common sense and basic math. Would he be "taking lessons" from an economist, he'd find ways to spin it to sound a lot more sinister as it actually is. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.04.08 16:56:00 - [49] Ever wonder if the RMT people in Eve ever post on the forums? I do occasionally. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Akita T Nah, it's pretty much common sense and basic math. Would he be "taking lessons" from an economist, he'd find ways to spin it to sound a lot more sinister as it actually is. Yeah, I'm no economist. What I do know is that farmers cause a hell of a lot of inflation, most likely the majority of it. Removing GMT trade would make this problem two to three times worse than it is now. Eventually this would lead to players being practically FORCED to buy ISK because farmers are the only ones who make enough money to fund their gameplay. If CCP increases the ISK faucets to compensate, the cycle starts all over again and in a year you're paying 5 million ISK for a Rifter. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

Lance Fighter Safe Haven North Star Confederation	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:06:00 - [51] Hey tarminic, update your sig! :D Ive noticed that 99.9% of people on these forums have a signature. If you are one of the 0.1% that doesnot have a sig, copy this into your sig, and display your defiance towards people with sigs.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:07:00 - [52] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Akita T Nah, it's pretty much common sense and basic math. Would he be "taking lessons" from an economist, he'd find ways to spin it to sound a lot more sinister as it actually is. Yeah, I'm no economist. What I do know is that farmers cause a hell of a lot of inflation, most likely the majority of it. Removing GMT trade would make this problem two to three times worse than it is now. Eventually this would lead to players being practically FORCED to buy ISK because farmers are the only ones who make enough money to fund their gameplay. If CCP increases the ISK faucets to compensate, the cycle starts all over again and in a year you're paying 5 million ISK for a Rifter. Wow, you have lost touch with reality. You have to buy isk because Chinese farmers exist? Go rat, run missions, gate camp as a pirate, whatever, but using real life money to buy ISK is cheating. Continue making all the excuses you want for being terrible at Eve (almost as bad as your forum warrioring), but when it comes down to it, when you buy ISK for real life money, you are cheating both in the spirit of the game, and yourself out of the experience which is making your way on your own through your own hard work and steadfast commitment to your goals. You seriously make me sick.
Iron Ball School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:15:00 - [53] How much does it cost to buy a bill the legal way with GTC? Around ú50-60 on average How much does it cost to buy a bill from farmers? A lot less going by the spam prices. Considering this, many who are willing to take the risk of buying it illegally may still do so because it's much cheaper. This leaves the question, do GTC really have any impact atall on the things they like to claim it does, such as less RMT activites, or is it making no difference atall? It's possible that the GTC system is just encouraging even more people than ever before to buy isk, even if it is "legal" with CCP.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:16:00 - [54] Quote: but when it comes down to it, when you buy ISK for real life money, you are cheating both in the spirit of the game, and yourself out of the experience which is making your way on your own through your own hard work and steadfast commitment to your goals. I agree. Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Wow, you have lost touch with reality. You have to buy isk because Chinese farmers exist? Go rat, run missions, gate camp as a pirate, whatever, but using real life money to buy ISK is cheating. You seriously make me sick. Well, here we go again! If inflation goes through the roof, traditional ISK faucets will have less and less of an effect. It will take you 2X hours to grind ISK to get a ship instead of X hours. Eventually it will take 4X hours. This means that normal players have to either spend four times as much effort earning ISK to perform other activities. What's their only alternative? Buy ISK from farmers. Or just find a different game to play, which is equally likely. CCP could, of course, quadruple all mission payouts, NPC buy orders, etc. But then the cycle would just repeat itself since the rate of inflation doesn't change. In all reality the inflation would accelerate as more players relied on purchased ISK. So are you going to logically address any of my comments or just continue to use ad hominem attacks? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Wow, you have lost touch with reality. You have to buy isk because Chinese farmers exist? Go rat, run missions, gate camp as a pirate, whatever, but using real life money to buy ISK is cheating. Continue making all the excuses you want for being terrible at Eve (almost as bad as your forum warrioring), but when it comes down to it, when you buy ISK for real life money, you are cheating both in the spirit of the game, and yourself out of the experience which is making your way on your own through your own hard work and steadfast commitment to your goals. You seriously make me sick. You there, head, gutter, out. It's a freaking theoretical "worst case" scenario. There are more and more people that RELY on purchase of ISK to play. They simply do not care or can't be bothered with the "regular" ways to get it. THAT is an unavoidable fact, people like that exist in each and EVERY online game, and the more popular EVE becomes, the more of that kind of crowd arrives. They may not be that way from the very start (even if a lot are), but in time, ratting/mining/missioning CAN get boring, and afterall, EVE is a PVP-centric game. Therefore, it is only natural that the DEMAND for ISK for cash in some form will keep rising. Wether it's legal or illegal to buy ISK is of no consequence to the ISK buyers. They will keep buying ISK, characters, whatever, even if they get banned for that. They'll either go away for good after getting banned, or will come back wasting even MORE cash. You can't put your head in the sand and claim otherwise. The demand for purchaseable ISK is on a steady increase course. Now, you can either scream and moan and do a "war on ISK sellers", enact harsher and harsher punishments for both parties involved... and that will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the fact that ISK will keep being sold, and people will keep buying ISK. On the other hand, allow a self-regulating transaction like the GTC-for-ISK, and you kill two birds with one stone. One, you reduce the impact RMTers can and will have on the economy, AND you have more subscribers. The alternative is a failing war against RMT, and it does nobody any good. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Roy Batty68 Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Wow, you have lost touch with reality. You have to buy isk because Chinese farmers exist? Go rat, run missions, gate camp as a pirate, whatever, but using real life money to buy ISK is cheating. Continue making all the excuses you want for being terrible at Eve (almost as bad as your forum warrioring), but when it comes down to it, when you buy ISK for real life money, you are cheating both in the spirit of the game, and yourself out of the experience which is making your way on your own through your own hard work and steadfast commitment to your goals. You seriously make me sick. Yes, because moral outrage based on ignorance will surely win the day. Why, is that the pitter-patter of little RMTer's feet running away from Eve because it makes Ethen Bejorn sick? I think so! Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:28:00 - [57] With the risk of sounding exceedingly political for my own good, I could just say the approach Ethen Bejorn advocates is the approach the USA takes on drugs (especially the m-hemp), while CCP has a more Holland-type approach. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Cutie Chaser Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:35:00 - [58] Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 08/04/2008 17:36:13 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP is the biggest offender of real money to isk sales due to game time codes. Quoted for truth, even having read the DevBlog. The difference between EVE and other MMO's is RMT. Most other MMO's often reject RMT on a moral basis; they do not feel that it is fair to the players, and also consider it to be a balance issue. CCP rejects RMT on a practical standpoint; they think that it brings in too many headaches(farmers, hacking, etc). So they've implemented their own system, which is safe and secure. Ethen Bejorn is correct. CCP willingly provides ISK for real currency. They support RMT, just not 3rd party RMT. On the positive side this is one of the first times that I've read a post by CCP that readily admits this 100%. The downside being that many people do not feel that a person's RL wealth should play a large part in their in-game success. --- On a sidenote, there are many parts of the devblog that are.... poorly worded or outright wrong. "The economics are quite different as well since wealth is redistributed between active members of the community rather than injected into the game." -Incorrect. Unless these RMT types have a spawnISK() method they would also be acquiring it through the same means that anyone else would. "Finally, the RMT element will not hesitate to commit real world crimes, such as credit card fraud or theft, to keep their business running." -You've equated all RMT business with criminals, where is it highly likely there are many that operate within the law. In fact, its almost bordering on slanderous. "Purchasing ISK directly supports and encourages these illegal activities!" - See above; it also supports people who are honestly working their lives away in a sweatshop for a nickle a day to feed thier families. Of course I can't imagine it would sound as alarmist to say: "Purchasing ISK directly supports and encourages third-world workers to feed their families"! :P --- All in all, I'm glad to see something being done to cut out RMT from EVE. I'd rather see it without much of the scaremongering and misleading statements. I'd even be happier to see RMT leave the game entirely, 1st or 3rd party. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Cutie Chaser Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:50:00 - [59] Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 08/04/2008 17:51:11 Originally by: Tarminic Not true actually - I go over this in some of my previous posts. An average player spends 2 hours a day making ISK through things like ratting and missions, which are ISK Faucets - they inject ISK directly into the economy from nothing. Farmers, on the other hand, utilize ISK faucets 23 hours a day, injecting ISK into the economy at ten times the rate of a normal player - this is referred to as an ISK Fountain if I remember correctly. This is bad because it means that each farmer has ten times the inflationary influence of a normal player. So then, where is the line? What about a player who farms ISK all day for a new ship? Or an unemployeed player who runs missions all day? Or a casual(?) farmer for that matter? It is a non-sense semantical argument. Both are undergoing the same process. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Oku Kee'lus Kandor Fleet Systems Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:54:00 - [60] Originally by: Cutie Chaser The difference between EVE and other MMO's is RMT. No. The difference between EVE and other MMOs is that NO other MMO has an in-game currency that is worth ****. Due to RMT and crappy game-mechanics. A lot of people may disagree, morally, with the way CCP handles this. As do I. Anyone with a little perspective and experience in MMO economies tho, will acknowledge that it's the most fair and balanced way of handling it. Perspective > Ignorance



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