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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:51:00 - [1] The devblog in question : Linkage I'd say, it deserves a PERMANENT sticky status as a hard-copy thread in "EVE New Citizens Q&A", "EVE General Discussion" and maybe even "Timecode Bazaar". Yes, three separate stickies. It's needed. On top of it all, it should be present in some form on the log-in screen or on one of the "welcome pages". Well, anything like that, just somewhere where NOBODY could claim ignorance of the rules as their defence. Seriously. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:54:00 - [2] CCP is the biggest offender of real money to isk sales due to game time codes.
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 14:56:00 - [3] Quote: CCP is the biggest offender of real money to isk sales due to game time codes. And there goes someone who didn't read the devblog.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:00:00 - [4] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 15:01:26 Originally by: Ulstan And there goes someone who didn't read the devblog. Took the words right out of my mouth. But then again, I was completely agreeing with CCP's point long before the blog came anyway. I can't even begin to count the times I had to re-type the whole "RMT vs GTC" argument, I was almost preparing to prepare a generic copypasta message P.S. Latest occurence : Linkage At least I think that was the latest, a couple more surfaced roughly at the same time. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:00:00 - [5] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 15:00:33 Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP is the biggest offender of real money to isk sales due to game time codes. WHOOSH =====(Devblog)> (Ethen Bejorn) ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:06:00 - [6] I agree with the OP lets see stickies all around!
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:10:00 - [7] CCP can claim it is not the same thing all they want, but as they as they let people buy isk for real money so they can profit and monoplize the market, I feel no sympathy for them in their fight against isk sellers.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP can claim it is not the same thing all they want, but as they as they let people buy isk for real money so they can profit and monoplize the market, I feel no sympathy for them in their fight against isk sellers. I suggest you read the linked threads before you stick your foot further into your mouth. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP can claim it is not the same thing all they want, but as they as they let people buy isk for real money so they can profit and monoplize the market, I feel no sympathy for them in their fight against isk sellers. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:15:00 - [10] I did, what exactly am I missing? They call it ETC instead of GTC? What, you still buy isk for real life dollars do you not? I don't give a crap if a person buys isk from IGE or CCP, both is just as bad. CCP just monopolizes the market and makes more profit off it. Nothing has changed, they just wrote a blog about it.

Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn I did, what exactly am I missing? They call it ETC instead of GTC? What, you still buy isk for real life dollars do you not? I don't give a crap if a person buys isk from IGE or CCP, both is just as bad. CCP just monopolizes the market and makes more profit off it. Nothing has changed, they just wrote a blog about it. I suggest learning to comprehend what you read and perhaps opening your mind to the possibility that your understanding of the world around you is narrowly defined by the limited parametres of your own intellect.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:19:00 - [12] Enlighten me, please, CCP alt/fan bois crew.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:21:00 - [13] Quote: When you buy an ETC and then sell it for ISK via the Secure ETC Trading System you are directly contributing to the growth of EVE as the code will be applied to an account and someone will be using it to play. Some players do not have the means to pay for their subscriptions with credit cards or similar and the Secure ETC Trading System helps them pay and play. The economics are quite different as well since wealth is redistributed between active members of the community rather than injected into the game. Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %*#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn I did, what exactly am I missing? They call it ETC instead of GTC? What, you still buy isk for real life dollars do you not? I don't give a crap if a person buys isk from IGE or CCP, both is just as bad. CCP just monopolizes the market and makes more profit off it. Nothing has changed, they just wrote a blog about it. They had to pick the lesser of two evils. The FAR lesser evil, in this case. In the RMT case, you get less game subscribers (because they quit as soon as they can no longer afford it), and indirectly less money for CCP. Not only that, but ISK bought for cash from RMT organisations is as good as ISK injected into the economy, since the RMT accounts wouldn't have used it at all anyway. The amount of GTC-to-ISK cash is relatively small, it was already in circulation to some degree anyway, the economic impact is minimal. Now, would CCP have said "the only way to purchase ISK is to DIRECTLY purchase it from us at a variable USD-ISK exchange rate we will be announcing", and would they simply create the ISK out of nothing, it still wouldn't be nearly as bad as money bought from RMTers. Yes, the in-game economic effect would be equally disastruous, but at least the spamming would nearly cease, and the extra strain on the server cluster from the farmers would dissapear. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %*#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. Okay, I'll humor you. Buying ISK with GTCs -Does not inject extra ISK into the economy -Subsidizes gameplay of those who can't pay subscription fees -Is legal and convenient Buying ISK from ISK Sellers -Contributes to inflation since farming injects ISK into the economy 8X as faster than normal -Connected to credit card fraud and account hacking -Pays the salaries of companies profiting illegally and supports sweatshop labor Anything else? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:27:00 - [16] Who cares? I don't. Nor do thousands of other people like me. You fan bois can defend CCP's terrible decisions all you wish, as you do all the time on these forums, this exact same group of people above, but you are the minority. I pay for my accounts with CASH. I support this game with my subscriptions. You cheap bastards who pay with ISK can rot for all I care.
Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Quote: When you buy an ETC and then sell it for ISK via the Secure ETC Trading System you are directly contributing to the growth of EVE as the code will be applied to an account and someone will be using it to play. Some players do not have the means to pay for their subscriptions with credit cards or similar and the Secure ETC Trading System helps them pay and play. The economics are quite different as well since wealth is redistributed between active members of the community rather than injected into the game. Oh, so CCP says this and it makes it okay? I don't a flying F if you can't pay your sub with money, get a job you lazy pieces of %*#^. Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. So since I've been playing long enough now that I can afford to pay the isk to play eve for free I'm an idiot? How many games do you know of that allow you to pay for your game play by playing the game? You are one angry little dude, chill out. Fact is if I use isk to buy my subscription, that isk is isk I may have just given away to noobs (I've been known to do that), wasted on a ship I would be inclined to be more reckless with, or just saved up. Since to me this is eve online, spaceships fighting game and not eve wallet building online, the extra isk serves me well, and serves eve well since it keeps me in the game and another player in the game, and no isk is used to make real world money for someone else.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Paying RL money for ISK is paying RL money for ISK and no matter what CCP says that will not change. Idiots. That's the BUYER side of the story. The side that no matter what you do, you won't be able to control. People who want to buy ISK will be buying ISK, no matter what you do. We're talking about the SELLER side of the story. CCP could have simply replaced the RMTers by selling ISK out of nowhere and damn the in-game economy. Instead, they picked the only REASONABLE solution, the one that would cause the least amount of damage. And you call THEM idiots ? Get a mirror. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Who cares? I don't. Nor do thousands of other people like me. You fan bois can defend CCP's terrible decisions all you wish, as you do all the time on these forums, this exact same group of people above, but you are the minority. I pay for my accounts with CASH. I support this game with my subscriptions. You cheap bastards who pay with ISK can rot for all I care. So to summarize your arguments: -You are all idiots -You are cheap and should get jobs -It doesn't matter who I purchase ISK with -Believing any differently makes you a fanboi Am I correct? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:36:00 - [20] Quote: CCP can claim it is not the same thing all they want They shouldn't even need to claim it - anyone with the dimmest glimmer of intelligence ought to be able to figure it out. Let's look at it from the perspective of the isk farmers. GTC: You exchange some in game currency for a game time card. RMT: You exchange some in game currency for real life cash. Now, try to consider the different demand demographics for (a) EVE game time cards (b) Real life cash Which do you think is more useful? Do you envision giant isk farming setups out there trying to amass billions of years worth of EVE GTC's?

Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:37:00 - [21] My point is, and CCP admits it in their blog, they are hypocrites in the eyes of thier paying customers. Do you think it is fair that 4 year old players with hundreds of billions of isk, people in 0.0 alliance which own Dyspro moons, or tech 2 BPOs, get to play Eve for free? That people with lots of RL money call by 50 game time codes and sell them for isk? They state that this is impossible, but that is not the the truth in anyway as is evidences on the GTC sales forums when people are selling many more than one or two codes at a time. The whole thing is a mess and a terribly unfair in so many ways, but CCP makes money off it so they allow it to continue instead of doing the right thing and getting rid of it in full.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The whole thing is a mess and a terribly unfair in so many ways, but CCP makes money off it so they allow it to continue instead of doing the right thing and getting rid of it in full. And then the ISK Selling thrives, leading to massive inflation, account theft, and credit card fraud. If you believe otherwise, please provide a logical basis. CCP is keeping the ISK generation in the economy in-check while letting players subsidize other's playtime in order to obtain ISK. What would you do? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:40:00 - [23] Edited by: Ulstan on 08/04/2008 15:42:45 Quote: Do you think it is fair that 4 year old players with hundreds of billions of isk, people in 0.0 alliance which own Dyspro moons, or tech 2 BPOs, get to play Eve for free? Sure. Just like it's fair that a guy who makes $200 an hour can fund his entire EVE subscription for a year in one hour of work, while guys who make $5 an hour will have to put in 36 hours of work to fund their EVE account for the year. Quote: They can say whatever they want, but I view it as the exact same thing But it's not the exact same thing. From a buyers perspective, yes, you are paying real life $$ for more isk. Time = money, and people who have more time are always able to get more in game resources than those who don't, so this doesn't unduly worry me. From a sellers perspective, being able to only get GTC's for your isk means at most, you'll earn enough isk to fund your account, and the motivation for massive isk farming teams to exist is poof gone, because EVE game time cards do not feed, clothe, or house them. So it's 'just as bad' in one direction, and much much better in the other. This means that it is not the exact same thing.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: Do you think it is fair that 4 year old players with hundreds of billions of isk, people in 0.0 alliance which own Dyspro moons, or tech 2 BPOs, get to play Eve for free? Sure. Just like it's fair that a guy who makes $200 an hour can fund his entire EVE subscription for a year in one hour of work, while guys who make $5 an hour will have to put in 36 hours of work to fund their EVE account for the year. No one expects real life to be fair. An MMOG should be a level playing field.
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:44:00 - [25] Edited by: Ulstan on 08/04/2008 15:46:04 Quote: No one expects real life to be fair. An MMOG should be a level playing field. It is a level playing field. You're confusing equality of outcomes with equality of opportunity. Anyway, in both cases, you're complaining about something in the real world that has no effect in game at all. How people pay their EVE accounts is a real world activity. You've already stated that no one expects real life to be fair, so why are you complaining about 'fairness' in real life?
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:46:00 - [26] So what's your idea Ethen? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn No one expects real life to be fair. An MMOG should be a level playing field. No one expects EVE to be fair. It's right there on the promotional stickers. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:49:00 - [28] Edited by: Ulstan on 08/04/2008 15:50:04 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Ethen Bejorn No one expects real life to be fair. An MMOG should be a level playing field. No one expects EVE to be fair. It's right there on the promotional stickers. That is true, but the main point he's missing is that paying your EVE subscription is a 'real life' activity, rather than an 'in game' activity. So if real life isn't fair, I fail to see why one should get upset that different methods of paying for your EVE subscription aren't 'fair'. Remember, how someones subscription is paid has no effect whatsoever in game.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Tarminic So what's your idea Ethen? Remove the ability to pay for Eve with ISK and remove GTC sales for real life money.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 15:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tarminic So what's your idea Ethen? Remove the ability to pay for Eve with ISK and remove GTC sales for real life money. And how would that not cause the problems I outlined here? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)



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