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Zetjur Jilnou Rapid Deployment Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:19:00 - [121] Originally by: Gone'Postal tbh I see it as CCP are idle If CCP got off there rears and did something about the sellers, there would be no need for the GTC system at all. As stated in this thread, if you can't pay for a game with cash.. get a job. Noone can buy isk if there are no sellers <--thats where CCP fail>. by offering a legal way of doing it, there helping people buy isk in a way that won't hurt the game. How do you propose they do this? Whenever I see macro's and report them, they are gone within a few days, just they get replaced rather quickly. I personally don't think it's possible to completely stop RMT... Anyone who thinks it is is frankly, delusional.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:21:00 - [122] grrr isk demand = 100% lets say that this demand is met by rmft for 50% and GTC for 50% (don't know the numbers, they don't matter anyway). If you lower the RMT transactions that must mean that (after a while) the GTC transactions will simply increase to again meet the 100% demand. WHO sells the isk or WHERE they are from, or by WHICH means does not change anything; people farm to make isk, to sell it for cash. In the case of GTC's they sell it for cash indirectly. No difference.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:22:00 - [123] Originally by: Tzar'rim I'm sorry, it is not better. It's only better for CCP. GTC's are not at all different from RMT's. There's no difference for the ingame economy, they are the SAME thing. Outside the game CCP benefits more from GTC's than from RMT's. le sigh Yes, there is a difference. A HUGE difference. And it's in the SUPPLY chain. RMTers can simply pump up the volume to meet pretty much any demand. The supply is nearly endless. If each and every regular player would be an ISK buyer, the farmers would STILL have enough ISK to cover the demand. ISK value plummets, prices skyrocket, the economy can go to hell in a handbasket, USD becomes the ONLY reasonable gameplay alternative. A player will NOT farm extra ISK beyond what's needed to pay for the monthly / trimestrial GTC. The supply is limited by the number of people willing to give away ISK for "free gametime". The more people (percentually) WANT ISK, the less ISK they get for their cash, since there's less people (percentually) willing to give away theirs for free gametime. A balance between willing sellers and buyers ensues, with no detrimental effect on the economy. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:23:00 - [124] Originally by: Tzar'rim WHO sells the isk or WHERE they are from, or by WHICH means does not change anything; people farm to make isk, to sell it for cash. In the case of GTC's they sell it for cash indirectly. No difference. So how is a normal player going to run missions 23/7? And through what means is he going to sell his ISK? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:25:00 - [125] Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:27:00 - [126] Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? Yes. A good one. It's called "an awesome game". 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:27:00 - [127] Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Gone'Postal Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:32:00 - [128] Originally by: Zetjur Jilnou Originally by: Gone'Postal tbh I see it as CCP are idle If CCP got off there rears and did something about the sellers, there would be no need for the GTC system at all. As stated in this thread, if you can't pay for a game with cash.. get a job. Noone can buy isk if there are no sellers <--thats where CCP fail>. by offering a legal way of doing it, there helping people buy isk in a way that won't hurt the game. How do you propose they do this? Whenever I see macro's and report them, they are gone within a few days, just they get replaced rather quickly. I personally don't think it's possible to completely stop RMT... Anyone who thinks it is is frankly, delusional. It's not my job to propose to CCP how to do things. I was stateing a fact. Why people insist that players should come up with the ideas on how CCP should run there game are delusional. V8I
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:32:00 - [129] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? Looking at the stupid amount of miners/ratters and mission runners I see whenever I am/get online I'd say that there's a percentage that does it, yes. Apart from that, it doesn't matter. if the isk/player goes down there will simply be more players to fulfill the demand, which means (yet again) more subscriptions.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:40:00 - [130] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Economically it doesn't matter if one person farms for 20 hours or 2 for 10. Actually, when you think about it, if you replace 23/7 farmers with actual "player farmers" you increase your amount of subscriptions. Do you see a pattern here? And you believe that the average player spends 10 hours a day earning ISK? Looking at the stupid amount of miners/ratters and mission runners I see whenever I am/get online I'd say that there's a percentage that does it, yes. Apart from that, it doesn't matter. if the isk/player goes down there will simply be more players to fulfill the demand, which means (yet again) more subscriptions. Do you really think that a normal player is going to sell ISK for cash? How? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:45:00 - [131] Why do you have a problem with that idea? There's tons of people out there who mine ore, buy a BPO, then research it to stupidly high ME's, then produce the items and sell them below mineral cost. IE, everyone puts in time and effort into the game. If people get 5 accounts because it's economically viable they will do so, if only to use those alts/accounts for other seasons apart from making cash. You're just argueing for the sake of argueing :P Not that I have a problem wit hthat ofcourse, since I'm doing the same.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:49:00 - [132] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:49:16 So if more people do economically unfeasable stuff to bring everybody else cheap goods, while not damaging the economy in any way (well, other than having a few angry manufacturers and a lot of happy traders/recyclers, that is), why should anybody be bothered they don't actually play real money to play the game ? Because they certainly aren't MAKING any real-life money with the secure GTC trade rules in place... 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:49:00 - [133] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:49:16 So if more people do economically unfeasable stuff to bring everybody else cheap goods, while not damaging the economy in any way (well, other than having a few angry manufacturers and a lot of happy traders/recyclers, that is), why should anybody be bothered they don't actually play real money to play the game ? Because they certainly aren't MAKING any real-life money with the secure GTC trade rules in place... huh?
Smantha Dering Sam's Space Guys	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:52:00 - [134] We've gone waaaay off topic. The whole point of the OP was to educate everyone, especially noobs that buying ISK is wrong, it changes the player we all know what god mode does to the over all enjoyment of any game, we enjoy it for less time and it's not as fulfilling. HOWEVER! The point of the OP was that the Dev Blog should be stickied so everyone can see it, everytime they go on the forums. Right or wrong, buying isk from an isk seller for cash is against the EULA and this devblog would give fair warning so we in turn have less "a gm took my isk" whines. So back on topic (I hope), this dev blog should be stickied. BTW I think we've pretty much covered every angle many times over.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:52:00 - [135] Originally by: Tzar'rim Why do you have a problem with that idea? There's tons of people out there who mine ore, buy a BPO, then research it to stupidly high ME's, then produce the items and sell them below mineral cost. IE, everyone puts in time and effort into the game. If people get 5 accounts because it's economically viable they will do so, if only to use those alts/accounts for other seasons apart from making cash. You're just argueing for the sake of argueing :P Not that I have a problem wit hthat ofcourse, since I'm doing the same. Based on a popular RMT site for eve, $200 million ISK is about 12 dollars. Assuming that the most ISK one can make per hour with a single account is 40 million ISK, that's less than 2 dollars an hour. Even assuming you could run 3 accounts, all at maximum efficiency, you're still making less than minimum wage. You would then have to set up some means of executing this transaction, like paypal. This costs money. Then you would have to set up a website and host it, which would also cost money. Then you have to convince people that you aren't going to rip them off. All for less than $8 an hour? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:53:00 - [136] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:54:21 Originally by: Tzar'rim huh? Sorry, I think I was confusing some wording in your post, having understood that the "below cost" crowd would be the "extra accounts" crowd. Originally by: Smantha Dering We've gone waaaay off topic. The whole point of the OP was to educate everyone, especially noobs that buying ISK is wrong, it changes the player we all know what god mode does to the over all enjoyment of any game, we enjoy it for less time and it's not as fulfilling. HOWEVER! The point of the OP was that the Dev Blog should be stickied so everyone can see it, everytime they go on the forums. Right or wrong, buying isk from an isk seller for cash is against the EULA and this devblog would give fair warning so we in turn have less "a gm took my isk" whines. So back on topic (I hope), this dev blog should be stickied. BTW I think we've pretty much covered every angle many times over. Uh. Right WHAT SHE SAID ! 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:54:00 - [137] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:01 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus is for themselves.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:42 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus Isk is for themselves. Oooooh! I confised cash for ISK with ISK for cash, sorry about that. Now...where were we again? I've completely lost my train of thought. Ah, I remember now! Me: Rabble! You: Rabble rabble! Me: Rabble rabble rabble! You: Rabble rabble rabble...rabble Me: Rabble? RABBLE OMG RABBLE! I think we should just agree to disagree before my organs start exploding. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:59:00 - [139] Originally by: Tzar'rim People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus is for themselves. Thanks to how things scale in EVE, there's an upper limit of number of accounts that are most profitable, depending on activity chosen and effort invested. A limit which is relatively low if you use no "illegal means", but then you have some other problems. ANYWAY... like Smantha Dering said... we're gone way, WAY off-topic. CCP says "GTC to ISK is good", some of us agree, some of us disagree. HOWEVER, there's a rather unanimous consensus that RMT is bad. Therefore, back to the topic... shove this "RMT is bad, use GTC instead if you HAVE to since it's not THAT bad, so we allow it" thingy down everybody's throat, so that nobody can claim/feign ignorance anymore. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:03:00 - [140] Is or is not having money from RMT on CCP's product go to CCP and therefore EVE better than having it go elsewhere? Even if it is just a percentage of the constant demand I find GTC-ISK trades to be better than the alternative of all the money going elsewhere.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:13:00 - [141] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:55:42 @Tarmie uhm, you got it all wrong. People make isk to pay for the account via GTC so they can make MORE isk, or use it for other means. At no point did I state that "real" players sell their isk for real cash, they do it indirectly via GTC, the surplus Isk is for themselves. Oooooh! I confised cash for ISK with ISK for cash, sorry about that. Now...where were we again? I've completely lost my train of thought. Ah, I remember now! Me: Rabble! You: Rabble rabble! Me: Rabble rabble rabble! You: Rabble rabble rabble...rabble Me: Rabble? RABBLE OMG RABBLE! I think we should just agree to disagree before my organs start exploding. <3
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 21:48:00 - [142] Now, if we could only go back to the original topic... So, how HARD do you think the idea of "RMT is not allowed, but for the time being we chose to allow secure GTC-to-ISK" should be driven into the unsuspecting public ? You know, so that nobody can even claim not knowing it's punishable ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:00:00 - [143] EULA, sticky on the buyer/seller forums, login info, help channel MOTD, asking around, asking a GM. Anyone claiming ignorance did not put in a single bit of effort to learn about the fact that RMT are prohibited. Burn them at the stake.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:18:00 - [144] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 22:22:20 Originally by: Tzar'rim Anyone claiming ignorance did not put in a single bit of effort to learn about the fact that RMT are prohibited. Burn them at the stake. I'd like to respond to that by quoting something somebody else said in a different thread (slightly taken out of context and trimmed): Originally by: Kolmogorow Especially for new players it is easy to buy ISK without having the feeling to do something forbidden since even "serious" EVE-related websites advertise for buying ISK (or link adverts or have Google ads with links). You only need to not read the EULA (and who reads the complete EULA when he starts playing the game?) and not browse through the forum to feel happy about the "great" offer to buy ingame money for hard cash. ___ I'd say a few devious things could be done too. Like, say, every time an ISK spam message or eve-mail is detected, instead of simply deleting it, an accompanying counter-spam system message or eve-mail could be sent too (that could be disabled by selecting a "Yes, I KNOW that buying ISK is against the EULA" checkmark at any time you want). Also, you could have the "tip of the day" stuck at a "RMT = bad" selection UNTIL you manually select another tip for the first time, and have a "so, you are aware buying ISK is bad, eh" modal window before going forward (default option would be "no, don't know", you have to manually click "yes, I know"). Or replacing the text message on anchored ISK-RMT advertising cans with "Buying ISK for money can get you banned, but selling GTCs the secure way is ok" instead of deleting them. You know, half-funny, half-annoying stuff like that. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:25:00 - [145] All they need to do is add a simple, to the point, big font text to the rookie channel MOTD stating that buying isk for cash is a nono. Also, make it so it's at the bottom of the MOTD so no one can miss it. Anyone claiming they didn't know is a big fat liar.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:30:00 - [146] So, if you enact the measure "today", all players that finished the rookie time cycle "yesterday" (and closed the channel) CAN and probably WILL feign ignorance 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:37:00 - [147] No, just as in actual law, pleading ignorance does not let you off the hook. There are already a lot of ways to find out that RMT gets you in trouble. I stated them earlier and (I'm guessing/hoping) that the vast majority knows these. If they don't it's their fault for not putting in effort. It would just be VERY useful if CCP would add that little fact to the rookie MOTD in a way that it can't be overlooked.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:43:00 - [148] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 22:49:22 Pleading ignorance doesn't help in this case either Still, real-life governments do go through expensive advertising "awareness rising" programs. CCP could do the same, but with minimal (or, I dare say, almost no) cost. Quote: There are already a lot of ways to find out that RMT gets you in trouble. You'd be really surprised. I (relatively) recently had a real-life aquaintance that has been playing EVE for almost a year ask me something to the extent of "well, you can buy ISK with GTC, that can't really be the ONLY allowed way to buy ISK, now can it ?" as a side-question to some issue we were discussing. GENUINE player. ONE YEAR. And it's not like he can't understand English. No clue that no other form of ISK purchase except secure GTC trades is forbidden. CONVINCED that there are legal ways to buy ISK that don't involve secure GTC transactions. Like I said, you'd be really surprised. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Gone'Postal Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:50:00 - [149] Originally by: Akita T So, if you enact the measure "today", all players that finished the rookie time cycle "yesterday" (and closed the channel) CAN and probably WILL feign ignorance Since your trying to reach all players, just why not have it in VERY BIG BOLD LETTERS on the splash screen isk buying is BAD! and can get you banned. and not the silly adverts for mags and other such cack. V8I
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 22:51:00 - [150] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 22:54:47 I'm not convinced it's such a bad idea as you seem to imply it might be P.S. ROFL, look, another one that missed the point : Linkage "If ISK selling for real money is ILLEGAL, why there are so many sites regarding ISK selling online and untouched? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.

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