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Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:56:00 - [61] Edited by: Tarminic on 08/04/2008 17:56:26 Originally by: Cutie Chaser Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 08/04/2008 17:51:11 Originally by: Tarminic Not true actually - I go over this in some of my previous posts. An average player spends 2 hours a day making ISK through things like ratting and missions, which are ISK Faucets - they inject ISK directly into the economy from nothing. Farmers, on the other hand, utilize ISK faucets 23 hours a day, injecting ISK into the economy at ten times the rate of a normal player - this is referred to as an ISK Fountain if I remember correctly. This is bad because it means that each farmer has ten times the inflationary influence of a normal player. So then, where is the line? What about a player who farms ISK all day for a new ship? Or an unemployeed player who runs missions all day? Or a casual(?) farmer for that matter? It is a non-sense semantical argument. Both are undergoing the same process. There's no line on a per-player basis, but what's important is the overall rate at which ISK is injected into the economy. One player who spends 16 hours a day running missions isn't a problem - it's unlikely that he could sustain that rate for very long, and even if he did his ISK earning rates are averaged out among 220 thousand other accounts. When 5-10% of EVE's population is doing the same thing it has a huge impact on inflation (specific numbers are in my previous posts). This inflation is bad for a variety of reasons that you probably already know. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Cutie Chaser Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.08 17:59:00 - [62] Originally by: Oku Kee'lus Anyone with a little perspective and experience in MMO economies tho, will acknowledge that it's the most fair and balanced way of handling it. Perspective > Ignorance Odd... you are claiming to have more prospective/experience then all the people in charge of these other MMOs? If you want to make that claim, we've nothing to discuss, ever again for that matter. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:08:00 - [63] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 18:09:41 Fact : CCP is the only non-micropayment MMO that allows some (very limited) form of RMT (ninja-edit : as far as I know) Fact : all MMOs that do not have a micropayment method are plagued by "goldfarmers" Fact : compared to other non-micropayment MMOs, EVE is still at worst at average of "nuissance" from farmers Fact : no other non-micropayment MMO has such a valuable, universal and volatile in-game currency as EVE has (so farmers should be uniquely attracted to it) Fact : the EVE economy is not in complete shambles, the inflation is not running amok... yet Conclusion : GTC-to-ISK, it just works Got a better explanation ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Delichon The First Foundation Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:09:00 - [64] Nothing to discuss here, really. This is CCPs game, they could have as well stopped selling new GTCs and wait for EVE to die out. Their decision to make. The counter-GTC arguement really boils down to: "I grind missions, learn game tactics, find more effective way to generate ingame currency - so I should be better than the other guy!" The reality is - no, you don't. CCP decided differently. Finding more effective ways to earn ISKs and grind allows you to stop paying for your subscription, fly better ships, hire merks. In other words - it allows you to be better off. Yet it does not allow you to be better than the next guy - who can achieve the same result through GTC-to-ISK. Kids don't like the fact, that they can't create "The cool kids club" and whine about it in GTC threads. Others understand it and praise CCP for it. End of story, bye. ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. Next time they are going to nerf you directly. Eve Forums.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:11:00 - [65] Lots of personal agendas being thrown around, here's how I see it: - there is NO difference between RMT and GTC's, isk goes from one person to another and somehow it is paid for with RL cash. - in itself RMT isn't worse and doesn't make for more inflation at all, compared to GTC's; people buy what they can/will buy, regardless if it would be RMT or GTC. Also, the whole "but farming goes much faster!!!111oneeleven" doesn't fly, it still has to be mined/made, apart from that a lot of actual players farm like there's no tomorrow. No difference. - both GTC's as RMT inject isk into the game, again no difference. Both put in effort, both sell their ore/whatever for isk. Isk is being made out of nothing since it's not a finite comodity (not really). All that's needed is labour which in both cases is cheap and in the case of the "real" players actually free, so that means it's even MORE out of whack. However; - RMT IS a lot more dangerous due to the phishing/CC theft and whatnot So the holier than though people going "but GTC's are less bad for the economy blahblah" can just shut it, cause it's not true. People will buy isk, if that happens through GTC or RMT makes no difference as such. I detect some self interest there, probably because said players make use of GTC's. Apart from that I don't do the fanboi thing going "omg but CCP gets teh money if it's GTC". I don't give a rat's ass, as it stands they are no better than the Korean MMO's with itemshops. Spin it how you want, but it's no different. Would I use RMT? No, never. Mostly because it's not secure in any way, apart from that I don't buy/sell my isk. I make it ingame, I use it ingame. But don't somehow spin it as if GTC's are any better.
Cutie Chaser Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:12:00 - [66] Fact : CCP is the only non-micropayment MMO that allows some (very limited) form of RMT wrong - UO allows, and has always allowed, RMT Fact : all MMOs that do not have a micropayment method are plagued by "goldfarmers" wrong - see previous example Fact : compared to other non-micropayment MMOs, EVE is still at worst at average of "nuissance" from farmers -"at worst at average"? Fact : no other non-micropayment MMO has such a valuable, universal and volatile in-game currency as EVE has (so farmers should be uniquely attracted to it) - opinion, can't be fact. How do you objectively measure these qualities you've attributed to EVE's currency? Fact : the EVE economy is not in complete shambles, the inflation is not running amok... yet -Fair *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:19:00 - [67] Originally by: Cutie Chaser Fact : CCP is the only non-micropayment MMO that allows some (very limited) form of RMT wrong - UO allows, and has always allowed, RMT see ninja-edit before your post Also... UO... isn't that, like, the mentor-game of the EVE devs ? AFAIK, they used to be UO players themselves, and were heavily inspired from it Quote: Fact : all MMOs that do not have a micropayment method are plagued by "goldfarmers" wrong - see previous example See above reply Quote: Fact : compared to other non-micropayment MMOs, EVE is still at worst at average of "nuissance" from farmers -"at worst at average"? Meaning "not significantly worse". Wouldn't you agree ? Quote: Fact : no other non-micropayment MMO has such a valuable, universal and volatile in-game currency as EVE has (so farmers should be uniquely attracted to it) - opinion, can't be fact. How do you objectively measure these qualities you've attributed to EVE's currency? I wasn't using "valuable" in the "worth most USD per day" sense, but rather in the "easily unloadable" sense. In this case, valuable and universal are kind of interchangeable. In WoW or other sharded games, you have to farm the currency on the respective shard. In EVE, you farm it anywhere, you can sell it anywhere, there's only one "shard" to begin with. As for volatility... just look at the prices for... well, anything that's not an ISK sink. ISK is pretty damned volatile, if you ask me. Quote: Fact : the EVE economy is not in complete shambles, the inflation is not running amok... yet -Fair 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:26:00 - [68] I used to be against CCP's system regarding GTC, however several factors swayed me. 1: RMT will happen 2: GTC for ISK means that all RMT funds an account and therefore game development 3: GTC demand is limited Which is basically what this blog has stated only in far more words. Even ignoring the fact that this reduces the negative impact typical RMT have, the GTC for ISK solution brings more players and more revenue to EVE.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:28:00 - [69] Originally by: Tzar'rim the whole "but farming goes much faster!!!111oneeleven" doesn't fly, it still has to be mined/made, apart from that a lot of actual players farm like there's no tomorrow. No difference. You don't understand the concept of injecting ISK into the economy - we're not talking about building components, we're talking about ISK being created from nothing, which is an ISK faucet. Mission payouts and bounties are one example of this. Quote: - both GTC's as RMT inject isk into the game, again no difference. Both put in effort, both sell their ore/whatever for isk. Isk is being made out of nothing since it's not a finite comodity (not really). All that's needed is labour which in both cases is cheap and in the case of the "real" players actually free, so that means it's even MORE out of whack. See above. Mining is not an ISK faucet, neither is GTC retail. Minierals from nothing != ISK from nothing. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:38:00 - [70] How does that change the GTC/RMT thing? it doesn't. There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk.
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:41:00 - [71] Originally by: Tzar'rim There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. Aside from the fact that macro farmers make on average more than 10 times the ISK per account than a real player.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:45:00 - [72] Why, because they're somehow superhuman, or have all kinds of exploits? They put in more time per account, that is all. Overall there's more "normal" players farming/making cash than "chinese" farmers, so that still doesn't fly.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:47:00 - [73] Originally by: Tzar'rim There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. Farmers have the inflationary impact 8-10 times that of an ordinary player. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
northwesten Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:48:00 - [74] Ethen Bejorn is the dumbest player I ever come across! IF your so fraking great and smart why havent you got a job with CCP to deal with this simple problem. End of the day CCP made a right move by stopping someone else earning with there GAME!! IF CCP has to do this to stop someone else earning real money for there game then its the right move. No matter what you cant stop isk buyers and seller so they played smart! just baning people left right and center will hurt there income more than anything. Ethen Bejorn please get a FRAKING CLUE! Trinity Corporate Services
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:54:00 - [75] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 18:54:53 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. Farmers have the inflationary impact 8-10 times that of an ordinary player. I'd say that's a pretty big difference. That's funny, I see real players with 5 accounts mine 20 hours a day, or run missions afk 23/7 or whatever. For the farmers to better that by 10 times is very impressive, can you explain how they do it? If there wouldn't be RMT's, there would be more demand for GTC sales and it would all balance out again. It makes no difference apart for the people who sell their made isk for GTC's, and CCP ofcourse. Which of the two do you belong to?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:56:00 - [76] Tzar'rim, can you understand the concept behind the words "ON AVERAGE" ? 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
northwesten Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:58:00 - [77] Originally by: Tzar'rim apart for the people who sell their made isk for GTC's, and CCP ofcourse. Which of the two do you belong to? CCP CCP CCP CCP CCP CCP!! geez i wish people look at the big picture ffs! I like CCP gain out of this and put money to other projects etc and pay for there beer than some :ú"$@ using their game to make RL money from and not get a real dam job. Trinity Corporate Services
Iron Ball School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:58:00 - [78] Originally by: northwesten Ethen Bejorn is the dumbest player I ever come across! IF your so fraking great and smart why havent you got a job with CCP to deal with this simple problem. End of the day CCP made a right move by stopping someone else earning with there GAME!! IF CCP has to do this to stop someone else earning real money for there game then its the right move. No matter what you cant stop isk buyers and seller so they played smart! just baning people left right and center will hurt there income more than anything. Ethen Bejorn please get a FRAKING CLUE! Isk for sale spammers in jita and everywhere else tells me CCP didn't stop them.
Nicholai Stropkov Article 58	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn The same every other MMOG out there handles it? Maybe CCP should ask Blizzard for tips on how to run an MMOG? The only reason Blizzard is not selling gold is that there are no goldsinks in the game (except for getting the skill to ride epic mount). About 95% of gear that is worth having can only be acquired by killing mobs in instances or grinding honor in BGs/Arenas. Once you pick it up you can't trade nor sell it to another player AND the gear is indestructible (you can't loose it). Huge difference between EvE and WoW... I get drunk and my BC goes poof in no time RMT will happen... I don't blame CCP that they're trying to monopolize and control it.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:00:00 - [80] Originally by: Tzar'rim Why, because they're somehow superhuman, or have all kinds of exploits? They put in more time per account, that is all. Overall there's more "normal" players farming/making cash than "chinese" farmers, so that still doesn't fly. They are constantly injecting ISK into the economy 23/7. If you want more details, here is some data for you: If an average player spends 2 hours a day making 30 million ISK per hour: With 5% farmer population: Total ISK injected by farmers: 7590 Billion Total ISK injected by players: 12540 Billion Inflationary caused by farmers: 37% Total inflation vs. 0% farmers: 157% With 15% farmer population: Total ISK injected by farmers: 22770 Billion Total ISK injected by players: 11220 Billion Inflationary caused by farmers: 67% Total inflation vs. 0% farmers: 258% Would you like me to go on? I can double the number of player-hours if you like to see how that affects it. This is also assuming that players do no participate in any ISK-sinks aside from ammo costs, which is not true and would further skew the numbers in favor of my argument. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:01:00 - [81] Originally by: Iron Ball Isk for sale spammers in jita and everywhere else tells me CCP didn't stop them. The fact that RMT ISK is getting cheaper and cheaper while GTC ISK is getting more expensive (i.e. less ISK for a GTC) tells me that they managed to put a serious dent into their profits, and make it less attractive to do bussiness in EVE. You can never hope to stop RMTers completely, that's the whole idea behind allowing GTC-for-ISK trades, as a mitigating factor, not as a complete RMT wipeout. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:01:00 - [82] Originally by: Tzar'rim How does that change the GTC/RMT thing? it doesn't. There's no difference between "chinese" farmers farming isk and a "real" player making isk. > Normal players make nowhere near the amount of ISK a single person running multiple accounts with macro's going 23/7. > Demand for GTC is limited, prices could rise, but then supply would decrease. > In the case of the "real" player the money goes to CCP and therefore goes towards enhancing the game whereas for the... farmer it does not. > The typical player does not commonly use keyloggers etc to obtain your account info or credit card details. I'm sure there are far more differences especially in regard to the different methods each group typically uses to make ISK but these should be enough to go on with.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Tzar'rim That's funny, I see real players with 5 accounts mine 20 hours a day, or run missions afk 23/7 or whatever. For the farmers to better that by 10 times is very impressive, can you explain how they do it? If there wouldn't be RMT's, there would be more demand for GTC sales and it would all balance out again. MINING IS NOT AN ISK FAUCET. It's not physically possible for a REAL PLAYER to run missions 23/7, 7 days a week. The average player does not run missions for more than several hours a day. The average player also engages in ISK sinks that remove ISK from the economy, while farmers do not. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:04:00 - [84] Or, to put it in a different perspecive... Players farm ISK to USE it. Once they have enough, they stop. And use it up. RMT users farm ISK to SELL it. They never stop. And almost never use it themselves. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:07:00 - [85] nice nitpicking, nice numbers. Yet it doesn't make CCP's system any better.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Tzar'rim nice nitpicking, nice numbers. Yet it doesn't make CCP's system any better. The numbers are simple match, I'll provide the spreadsheet if you'd like. Noting that mining is not an ISK faucet isn't nitpicking, it's refuting the entire argument that people who mine with 5 accounts contribute to inflation. Noting that the average player does not run missions more than several hours a day also refutes your point. CCP's system does not lead to runaway inflation because the ISK spent is obtained by normal players, not farmers. This goes back to the ISK faucet vs. ISK fountain, which you have yet to refute. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Tzar'rim No, because if RMT's were completely removed there would STILL be a demand for isk, so GTC pricing would change and more people would sell their isk. Because one way of buying isk is removed or lessened doesn't mean that on the whole the isk/RL cash transactions change in any way. Yes it does, see here. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Tzar'rim No, because if RMT's were completely removed there would STILL be a demand for isk, so GTC pricing would change and more people would sell their isk. And the less ISK you will be getting for your cash, therefore limiting the number of people who are willing to BUY ISK in the first place, actually REDUCING the amount of ISK being transacted overall given the same amount of players. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:17:00 - [89] Ok, again. The isk DEMAND is there, regardless of how it's done, either via RMT or GTC. removing or lesseing one way of selling that isk to the buyers does not change the overal market for isk. Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:19:00 - [90] Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

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