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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:22:00 - [91] Originally by: Tzar'rim Ok, again. The isk DEMAND is there, regardless of how it's done, either via RMT or GTC. removing or lesseing one way of selling that isk to the buyers does not change the overal market for isk. Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. Economic theory time ! Supply and Demand Demand = constant, you say. Supply = lower (no RMT source) Hence, price -> up... and most important... VOLUME -> DOWN ! 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:26:00 - [92] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? No, I'm saying that both real players as farmers mine, run missions and do any other forms of making isk, wether it's a faucet or not. In the end it all comes down to meeting the demand for isk, which won't change wether it's met via RMT, GTC or any combination. If RMT is taken out, the demand will be balanced by having more GTC sales.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:29:00 - [93] Originally by: Tzar'rim No, I'm saying that both real players as farmers mine, run missions and do any other forms of making isk, wether it's a faucet or not. There is a huge difference between "Making ISK" and an "ISK Faucet." Selling something you've mined is not an ISK faucet, making money through trading is not an ISK faucet. Mission Running is an ISK faucet, and ratting is an ISK faucet. Real players generate ISK through ISK faucets, on average, at a certain rate. Farmers do the same at a rate 8 to 10 times as quickly. I really don't understand what you're not getting here. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:33:00 - [94] it doesn't matter, the real problem is the DEMAND, not the supply. As long as the demand is there there will be people trying to fill that demand, trough any means available. If you remove the farmers then "real" players will just start to farm more because all of a sudden it becomes more profitable to do so, simply because the deman doesn't change. You're nitpicking while avoiding the actual issue.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Tzar'rim it doesn't matter, the real problem is the DEMAND, not the supply. As long as the demand is there there will be people trying to fill that demand, trough any means available. If you remove the farmers then "real" players will just start to farm more because all of a sudden it becomes more profitable to do so, simply because the deman doesn't change. You're nitpicking while avoiding the actual issue. You suck at economy. Read above. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:36:00 - [96] no, you fail to see the actual problem. The problem is buying isk through RL cash. It doesn't matter if it's done "legally" or not.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:36:00 - [97] Originally by: Tzar'rim it doesn't matter, the real problem is the DEMAND, not the supply. As long as the demand is there there will be people trying to fill that demand, trough any means available. I don't disagree here. Quote: If you remove the farmers then "real" players will just start to farm more because all of a sudden it becomes more profitable to do so, simply because the deman doesn't change. How so? Players can't buy GTCs with ISK and legally sell them for real money. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:37:00 - [98] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? I guess you just don't get it. It is the same thing to US. No one cares about your semantics and made up statistics. CCP are just profiteering off one method and punishing their customers for using anything other than their own. It is plain and simple selfish hypocritical behavior. Oh and btw, after I made all my posts in this thread a GM took 2B ISK from me which a friend gave me four months ago. I know this friend was NOT an isk farmer/seller, as he was a real english speaking player who I was friends with for over a year and he gave me almost all his isk and items when he quit. I guess CCP doesn't like it when you disagree with them publically. I would be willing to bet that 2B isk that many of the posters in this thread who are supporting CCP and their GTC sales are in fact CCP employees. Tarminic and Akita T are 100% CCP alts.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:39:00 - [99] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 19:42:18 Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 19:40:03 Originally by: Tzar'rim no, you fail to see the actual problem. The problem is buying isk through RL cash. It doesn't matter if it's done "legally" or not. I DO see the real problem. The real problem is that people WILL buy ISK for RL cash, wether it's legal or not, wether they get banned for it or not. Giving them a LEGAL way to do so, while much more expensive than the "illegal" (EULA-wise) way will act as a pressure vent, keeping the whole issue contained instead of having it blow up in your face somehow. Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Tarminic and Akita T are 100% CCP alts. Hear that CCP ? He said you should hire us to do your PR ! Originally by: Ethen Bejorn CCP are just profiteering off one method and punishing their customers for using anything other than their own. It is plain and simple selfish hypocritical behavior. No, it's plain and simple proper capitalistic behavior. And it's 100% their right to do so. P.S. IF they would want, they could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:42:00 - [100] Since the demand doesn't change (at least not due to the RMT/GTC balance) people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. The demand is there, therefore it people will try and meet that demand. Your geographic location or you means of making the trade does not change that.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:44:00 - [101] Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:45:00 - [102] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn I guess you just don't get it. It is the same thing to US. No one cares about your semantics and made up statistics. CCP are just profiteering off one method and punishing their customers for using anything other than their own. It is plain and simple selfish hypocritical behavior. Whatever. If you're going to accuse me of using bad math you're going to have to back yourself up. Or maybe try refuting anything that I've said, provide an alternative, pretty much anything other than ad hominem attacks. You have failed to do so and have simply ignored my arguments. Quote: Oh and btw, after I made all my posts in this thread a GM took 2B ISK from me which a friend gave me four months ago. I know this friend was NOT an isk farmer/seller, as he was a real english speaking player who I was friends with for over a year and he gave me almost all his isk and items when he quit. I guess CCP doesn't like it when you disagree with them publically. I would be willing to bet that 2B isk that many of the posters in this thread who are supporting CCP and their GTC sales are in fact CCP employees. Tarminic and Akita T are 100% CCP alts. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:47:00 - [103] Just so you know, I do not agree with Ethen Bejorn's views.
Abrazzar Equilibrium Inc. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:47:00 - [104] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Therefore, since the demand doesn't change it does not matter how that demand is met by the sellers. I'm not saying that RMT is good, I'm saying that GTC's are no better. So you're going to ignore everything I've said and that data I've provided regarding the inflationary impact of farmers...ISK faucets vs. ISK fountains, etc? I guess you just don't get it. It is the same thing to US. No one cares about your semantics and made up statistics. CCP are just profiteering off one method and punishing their customers for using anything other than their own. It is plain and simple selfish hypocritical behavior. Oh and btw, after I made all my posts in this thread a GM took 2B ISK from me which a friend gave me four months ago. I know this friend was NOT an isk farmer/seller, as he was a real english speaking player who I was friends with for over a year and he gave me almost all his isk and items when he quit. I guess CCP doesn't like it when you disagree with them publically. I would be willing to bet that 2B isk that many of the posters in this thread who are supporting CCP and their GTC sales are in fact CCP employees. Tarminic and Akita T are 100% CCP alts. Smacks Ethen with a heavy roll of tinfoil WEAR THIS !! lol, you are ridiculous. -------- Ideas for: Mining Clouds
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Don't let any PR fool you.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:53:00 - [106] Originally by: Tzar'rim [...] people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. Wait a second, I'm still trying to recover from an uncontrollable burst of laughter I just had. You're telling me people would be farming MORE ISK in order to pay for the EXTRA accounts they would create so that they could PAY FOR THEIR ACCOUNTS in the first place ? Yes, it now makes perfect sense ! If I can't pay for my account, I will create an alt account to make more ISK so I can pay for my account ! But wait, I need more cash to pay for the second account too ! So, the obvious answer is... make a THIRD account ! [...] Ooops, sorry, it's not 1 mil subscriptions you see, it's just me and my horde of alts trying to make ISK to pay for the GTCs needed for my army of alts. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:55:00 - [107] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Even if CCP would benefit from selling ISK directly they wouldn't because, as Akita T said, it would be injecting ISK directly into the economy much faster than normal players could, causing rampant inflation. That's why farming is bad. No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:58:00 - [108] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:00:18 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tzar'rim [...] people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. Wait a second, I'm still trying to recover from an uncontrollable burst of laughter I just had. You're telling me people would be farming MORE ISK in order to pay for the EXTRA accounts they would create so that they could PAY FOR THEIR ACCOUNTS in the first place ? Yes, it now makes perfect sense ! If I can't pay for my account, I will create an alt account to make more ISK so I can pay for my account ! But wait, I need more cash to pay for the second account too ! So, the obvious answer is... make a THIRD account ! [...] Ooops, sorry, it's not 1 mil subscriptions you see, it's just me and my horde of alts trying to make ISK to pay for the GTCs needed for my army of alts. You DO know that an extra account has paid for itself after a few hours of mining, right?
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 19:59:00 - [109] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T Again... IF they would want, CCP could just as well sell ISK directly to anybody at prices that undercut any ISK RMTers. But they DON'T. Ask yourself WHY. Because they don't have to, they sell a vast amount of GTC's and at the same time they are trying to shut down the whole RMT thing. While they do it for good reasons ofcourse that doesn't mean that it's their SOLE reason, the benefit from RMT's being removed. Even if CCP would benefit from selling ISK directly they wouldn't because, as Akita T said, it would be injecting ISK directly into the economy much faster than normal players could, causing rampant inflation. That's why farming is bad. No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:01:00 - [110] Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest. Keeping EVE's economy healthy would be in CCP's best interests, because otherwise most players would leave EVE. Selling ISK directly might benefit them in the short term but if EVE's economy fails, EVE will fail. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:04:00 - [111] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:04:20 Originally by: Tzar'rim You DO know that an extra account pays for itself after a few hours of mining, right? And unless you use macros, it doesn't scale very well. Of course, you can also make the argument of extra mission-running alts. But, pray, do tell... how many people do you think are CAPABLE of running several accounts as the same time without the aid of macros ? Like I said, it doesn't scale very well. Anyway, mining is not an ISK faucet, as it produces no ISK, it just shifts it around from the ones buying the minerals. Also, the more people mine, the less valuable the minerals become. Mining alt accounts don't inject any ISK into the economy, but do generate goods. Overall, they have the net effect of DEFLATION on the economy, completely opposed to what a mission-runer does. Heck, if people would do that more often (horde of mining alts), I'd be thrilled. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:04:00 - [112] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Tzar'rim [...] people will simply farm more isk and/or create more accounts to do so, because it's more profitable. Which needs more GTC's to keep those extra accounts running. If you remove RMT, then the "real" players will just churn out more isk again finding an equilibrium. So the "real" players are no different from the farmers if they supply isk for this whole thing. Wait a second, I'm still trying to recover from an uncontrollable burst of laughter I just had. You're telling me people would be farming MORE ISK in order to pay for the EXTRA accounts they would create so that they could PAY FOR THEIR ACCOUNTS in the first place ? Yes, it now makes perfect sense ! If I can't pay for my account, I will create an alt account to make more ISK so I can pay for my account ! But wait, I need more cash to pay for the second account too ! So, the obvious answer is... make a THIRD account ! [...] Ooops, sorry, it's not 1 mil subscriptions you see, it's just me and my horde of alts trying to make ISK to pay for the GTCs needed for my army of alts. No, Tzar'rim was saying that without GTC trade and RMT, "real" players would macro-mine / macro-mission themselves instead of paying RMT scum to do it for them.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:05:00 - [113] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Tarminic No one here is suggesting that CCP is fighting RMT purely out of the goodness of their hearts, but their motivations are more than pure self-interest. Wrong, CCP is a business and therefore their actions are by definition driven by self-interest. Keeping EVE's economy healthy would be in CCP's best interests, because otherwise most players would leave EVE. Selling ISK directly might benefit them in the short term but if EVE's economy fails, EVE will fail. Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:06:00 - [114] Originally by: Tzar'rim Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales. And that's also exactly why WE want GTC sales as well. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:10:00 - [115] Originally by: Tzar'rim Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales. My primary point was that RMT is bad for EVE economically and that the GTC trade is infinitely better in that respect. I didn't mean to suggest that CCP is doing so purely for our benefit (though fighting RMTs benefits us as well) or that that I like the idea of people buying ISK for real money. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:11:00 - [116] Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:11:23 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T And that's also exactly why WE want GTC sales as well. I'd rather have ISK have a high value, so those that get blasted by me feel the pain. And I'd rather have a REAL player play the game longer rather than filling some sleazebag's pockets. That's a personal reason, not an economic one. Are you denying the fact RMTers tend to destroy game economies ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades don't tend to do that ? Are you denying the fact you just can't stop RMT completely ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades keeps RMT transactions in check to a degree ? I guess you don't deny any of that So, you see... it makes perfect economic sense too. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Gone'Postal Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:13:00 - [117] tbh I see it as CCP are idle If CCP got off there rears and did something about the sellers, there would be no need for the GTC system at all. As stated in this thread, if you can't pay for a game with cash.. get a job. Noone can buy isk if there are no sellers <--thats where CCP fail>. by offering a legal way of doing it, there helping people buy isk in a way that won't hurt the game. V8I
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:15:00 - [118] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Tzar'rim Exactly, that's why they don't inject vast amounts of isk into the economy, as Akita said. You have to understand that the whole GTC sales wroks for them both ways; Due to the whole GTC thing people keep playing this game longer, and with more accounts. That is why CCP wants GTC sales. My primary point was that RMT is bad for EVE economically and that the GTC trade is infinitely better in that respect. I didn't mean to suggest that CCP is doing so purely for our benefit (though fighting RMTs benefits us as well) or that that I like the idea of people buying ISK for real money. I'm sorry, it is not better. It's only better for CCP. GTC's are not at all different from RMT's. There's no difference for the ingame economy, they are the SAME thing. Outside the game CCP benefits more from GTC's than from RMT's.
Tzar'rim Nazcan Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:17:00 - [119] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 08/04/2008 20:17:18 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 08/04/2008 20:11:23 Originally by: Tzar'rim Originally by: Akita T And that's also exactly why WE want GTC sales as well. I'd rather have ISK have a high value, so those that get blasted by me feel the pain. And I'd rather have a REAL player play the game longer rather than filling some sleazebag's pockets. That's a personal reason, not an economic one. Are you denying the fact RMTers tend to destroy game economies ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades don't tend to do that ? Are you denying the fact you just can't stop RMT completely ? Are you denying the fact GTC trades keeps RMT transactions in check to a degree ? I guess you don't deny any of that So, you see... it makes perfect economic sense too. Now you're just rambling. The thing is that somehow people tend to put some moralistic value difference between RMT's and GTC's. Which is just wrong. Wether that's due to fanboyism or not is up for discussion but at the basis there's no difference between the two.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.08 20:17:00 - [120] Originally by: Tzar'rim I'm sorry, it is not better. It's only better for CCP. GTC's are not at all different from RMT's. There's no difference for the ingame economy, they are the SAME thing. Outside the game CCP benefits more from GTC's than from RMT's. So all that inflation stuff that you have yet to refute except by claiming that a normal player runs missions 23/7? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.8 (Updated 4/7)

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