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Trit prices: where to next?

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Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 16:53:00 - [1] Quote: NPC corporations will no longer be selling shuttles. With this in the patch notes, how high can we expect trit prices to rise? What is the next mineral cap from NPC sold items?
Amarr Citizen 155 Alternative Methods Research Group	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:05:00 - [2] woohoo, another trit thread. I predict the per unit of trit to rise to 1m per unit. ---------------------------------------------- Why do it the hard way when you can do it the AMARR way.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:17:00 - [3] Well, it can only rise SO far before the highends come screeching down slowly, putting a stop to the rise. Besides, there's plenty of other stuff NPC corps sell, which still carry a morsel of tritanium in them, so it's a double whammy. Anyhow, I'd say it won't have much of an impact short of the knee-jerkish panicky reaction... average trit prices were already stabilised below perfect cheap shuttle reprocessing (3.6 per unit), and far below perfect expensive shuttle reprocessing (4.4 per unit)... or am I missing something ? The market might throw a small short-term hissy fit, but should go back to normal soon. ANYWAY, still, there will be some price-fluctuations around here, so doing whatever comes closest to short-selling right now might be a good idea... just get out of it before it compesnates back soon™ 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:36:00 - [4] The important question to ask is: Shuttle prices: Where to next? Oh, and go Dr.E!! This is exactly the kind of change EVE needs to slow down the deflationary trend in the small ships arena. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:36:00 - [5] Well, one thing you have to bear in mind is that this will have an effect on the trit market even with the price cap not in effect. People will still need shuttles for their shuttling properties. With NPC's not selling them, that means players will have to build them, and they'll have to use trit to do that. Taking figures from the Q42007 QEN, we know that the typical non-price-cap influenced level of sales of caldari shuttles is approx 200,000 per month. It takes at least 2500 trit to make a shuttle, so we get an increased demand for trit of 500 million units of trit per month. If we assume that the other 3 shuttle types are equally demanded, then that's 2 billion units per month of extra demand for trit. We also know that total traded volume of trit in December was approx 805 billion, so we're talking an increase in demand of about 0.25% of total traded volume. So yes, an effect, but I wouldn't expect it to be a large one. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:39:00 - [6] Oh well, since my thread in general discussion was removed, lets go on here. It's an interesting question, what is the next cap? Is it even gonna be reached? Hopefully it will at least create a more dynamic market. But i doubt we will see major changes in the long run.
Wadaya Caldari Trailerpark Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:40:00 - [7] Just guessing 4.00 will be the new trit high price or there abouts. Pyerite will fall even further due to heavy mining of scordite for more trit, causing supply of pyerite to be saturated. Short term, I think alof of small manufacturers will take a hiatus until trit settles on a new price. Expect heavy manipulation from now through Sunday, gearing up for weekend sales. Good times :) Wad
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 17:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Matthew Taking figures from the Q42007 QEN, we know that the typical non-price-cap influenced level of sales of caldari shuttles is approx 200,000 per month. It takes at least 2500 trit to make a shuttle, so we get an increased demand for trit of 500 million units of trit per month. But how much of that was shuttles recycled into trit? I doubt that there is much fundamental demand for shuttles. Their primary selling point is one of convience. With that convience gone, how many people will opt for a rookie ship instead of a shuttle? I suppose that a study of demand for shuttles in 0.0 would be helpful to project future demand for high sec shuttles. However, I don't have access to that information.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Ki Anna But how much of that was shuttles recycled into trit? Take a look at the graph in the QEN (figure 9, page 16). It shows a stable level of shuttle purchase of approx 200k units per month for the entire period except for October, when the trit price got above 3 isk per unit. The spike of people buying shuttles to recycle is very obvious and spiked consumption up to 1.6 million shuttles per month. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume that the 200k per month level is the base demand for caldari shuttles as shuttles, with minimal recycling demand being included. Originally by: Ki Anna I doubt that there is much fundamental demand for shuttles. Why not? Most times when people buy a ship, they are going to need to use a shuttle at some point to get their new ship to where they want to use it without having to abandon another ship at the purchase location. Econ Dev blog No 2 suggests that in August 2007 there were approx 22k ships produced per day, so approx 660k per month. Assuming there has been no growth since then (when there probably has been), and that caldari shuttles are 1/4 of the shuttle market (they are probably more due to the concentration of players in caldari space), this suggests that approx 165k shuttle purchases per month could be justified by people traveling to pick up their new ships. While it is back of an envelope stuff, 200k caldari shuttles per month does not seem an unreasonable figure for true demand. Originally by: Ki Anna Their primary selling point is one of convience. With that convience gone, how many people will opt for a rookie ship instead of a shuttle? The trick will be getting a rookie ship without leaving another of your ships abandoned in space (at which point you may as well have used the other ship instead). As far as I know they fixed the bug where you could dock your ship while remaining in space in a pod, and you don't have free and cheap shuttles to abandon in space anymore. Of course, it's possible that the convenience factor will push people to use low-end frigates instead of shuttles (e.g. condor), which may spread demand across more minerals. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Matthew The trick will be getting a rookie ship without leaving another of your ships abandoned in space (at which point you may as well have used the other ship instead). As far as I know they fixed the bug where you could dock your ship while remaining in space in a pod, and you don't have free and cheap shuttles to abandon in space anymore. How about right-click on your ship while docked and choose leave ship? Either fly to your new ship in your pod, or dock at any station where you don't already have another ship to get a rookie ship. I don't remember right off, but I think that you might even get one if you dock where you have a ship as long as it is not assembled. I expect that popular stations will be well stocked with shuttles priced right near the mineral price, just like any other T1 ship. Otherwise, people are more likely to use a rookie ship or pod if a shuttle is not available at a reasonable price. Unlike with 0.0, in high-sec, the speed bonus that a shuttle offers over a rookie ship or pod is not likely to allow for much of a price increase.
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:40:00 - [11] I wonder if it's viable to predict the high limit of racial shuttle prices from the cost of the corresponding mining frigates? IIRC, the mining frigates are available from NPC dealers. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:43:00 - [12] Edited by: Ki Anna on 15/04/2008 18:43:41 Originally by: Pang Grohl I wonder if it's viable to predict the high limit of racial shuttle prices from the cost of the corresponding mining frigates? IIRC, the mining frigates are available from NPC dealers. How do you mean? The mining frigates might replace shuttles as a source for low end minerals. But NPC pricing will no longer have a direct effect on shuttles as NPC's no longer buy or sell shuttles.
Mr Horizontal Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:47:00 - [13] Edited by: Mr Horizontal on 15/04/2008 18:48:26 Originally by: Ki Anna I suppose that a study of demand for shuttles in 0.0 would be helpful to project future demand for high sec shuttles. However, I don't have access to that information. Joke right? everyone farts around in a ceptor in 0.0 unless you're a goon. Always armed. Director \| www.eve-bank.net
Altaree Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.15 18:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Mr Horizontal Edited by: Mr Horizontal on 15/04/2008 18:48:26 Originally by: Ki Anna I suppose that a study of demand for shuttles in 0.0 would be helpful to project future demand for high sec shuttles. However, I don't have access to that information. Joke right? everyone farts around in a ceptor in 0.0 unless you're a goon. Always armed. Interceptors... Otherwise known as T2 Shuttles Blue Sky
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.15 19:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Ki Anna Originally by: Matthew The trick will be getting a rookie ship without leaving another of your ships abandoned in space (at which point you may as well have used the other ship instead). As far as I know they fixed the bug where you could dock your ship while remaining in space in a pod, and you don't have free and cheap shuttles to abandon in space anymore. How about right-click on your ship while docked and choose leave ship? Either fly to your new ship in your pod, or dock at any station where you don't already have another ship to get a rookie ship. Good point, I stand corrected. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.15 19:23:00 - [16] I just find this slightly annoying--I liked being able to get ahold of a shuttle at an NPC station when I needed one. Now they'll all be in Jita. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 19:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Ki Anna Edited by: Ki Anna on 15/04/2008 18:43:41 Originally by: Pang Grohl I wonder if it's viable to predict the high limit of racial shuttle prices from the cost of the corresponding mining frigates? IIRC, the mining frigates are available from NPC dealers. How do you mean? The mining frigates might replace shuttles as a source for low end minerals. But NPC pricing will no longer have a direct effect on shuttles as NPC's no longer buy or sell shuttles. In theory given that a mining frigate has the same availability as a shuttle, no one would pay more than a certain percentage of the cost of a mining frigate to acquire a shuttle. The difference in mineral value alone should support this. The with shuttle prices uncapped, mining frigates can compete with shuttles for the cheap, readily available conveyance, market space. Shuttles can also rise to prices that remove the throw-away factor. With warp to zero the speed advantage of shuttles is less of a factor as well. Because of these factors mining frigates could replace shuttles both as a source of low-end minerals, and as a cost effective small cargo ship, when their price gets high enough. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Zarstrax	Posted - 2008.04.15 19:28:00 - [18] Edited by: Zarstrax on 15/04/2008 19:42:37 Maybe 4.0 or 5.0 per unit I think. I bought 500mil worth of trit so hope It goes up a bit.
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 19:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Pang Grohl Because of these factors mining frigates could replace shuttles both as a source of low-end minerals, and as a cost effective small cargo ship, when their price gets high enough. Are any frigates still sold by NPC's? I am having a hard time confirming this using out-of-game tools and cannot currently log in to verify it myself.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:12:00 - [20] Oh God! My shuttles!!! I buy so many shuttles, it's perfectly normal for me to go through half a dozen in a week. Now what the hell am I supposed to do when I'm out in some remote corner of low sec and need something to zip around in? There are few ships as fast and agile and the odds of finding one of those at a remote low sec station are pretty slim.... I really wish they had just quadrupled the price but left them those NPC orders on the market. Then we'd still have the convenience they offered and it would have moved the price ceiling so high it would be a non-issue. There was definitely a better way to do this CCP. Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:17:00 - [21] Originally by: Ki Anna Are any frigates still sold by NPC's? I am having a hard time confirming this using out-of-game tools and cannot currently log in to verify it myself. Well there's no NPC sells for any T1 frigate on the Lonetrek market, though there are plenty of low-end frigates around on player orders that are a considerably better deal than the ridiculous pricing currently going on in the shuttle market. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:30:00 - [22] trit should go to the next price capped npc item. I believe that the demand for trit is inelastic, so it will be very sensitive to this move. I think trit will behave much as crude oil does in the real world.
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Ki Anna Are any frigates still sold by NPC's? I am having a hard time confirming this using out-of-game tools and cannot currently log in to verify it myself. Well there's no NPC sells for any T1 frigate on the Lonetrek market, though there are plenty of low-end frigates around on player orders that are a considerably better deal than the ridiculous pricing currently going on in the shuttle market. Hmmm... even better then. On mineral value alone shuttles should float at approximately 30% of mining frigates. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.15 20:59:00 - [24] The Trit market exploded.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.15 21:05:00 - [25] The only reasons trit could rise is the same reasons it's as high as it was before the patch. Speculation, manipulation and FUD. Supply still significantly exceeds demand. The price of trit going up today is an demonstration of group psychology not market forces. Not that it doesn't mean an opportunity to make isk ----- Originally by: kedoremos EVE's economy is **** for CPAs, Annuities, and Stock Brokers.
wamingo Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.04.15 21:25:00 - [26] Don't you think this change will be reversed by popular demand? Afterall, NOT being able to get a shuttle from anywhere is a huge change to the game. People will often have to fly pods now. -- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What?
Ikserak tai Caldari Ghengis Tia Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 21:47:00 - [27] Trit is going for 6.15 Isk in Jita, and rising over 5 Isk in most empire regions. Think the asteroid belts will be full this weekend?? YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED.
Fitz VonHeise The New Order. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 22:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Ikserak tai Trit is going for 6.15 Isk in Jita, and rising over 5 Isk in most empire regions. Think the asteroid belts will be full this weekend?? CCP wanted to force or incentivize people to go to 0.0 for the isk one can make mining crok and other ore. Now people will be making more isk then ever before mining trit. How does that make people want to go to 0.0 space?
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.15 22:19:00 - [29] Edited by: BlondieBC on 15/04/2008 22:19:31 quote]CCP wanted to force or incentivize people to go to 0.0 for the isk one can make mining crok and other ore. Now people will be making more isk then ever before mining trit. How does that make people want to go to 0.0 space? It will be interesting how the serious 0.0 miners react. Will they all move to high sec? Is there enough veldspar rocks in high sec to supply demand? I have not personally looked at high sec belts in a year? ** Is there another price cap that Trit will hit? I did some calculation on break even, (being a crokite miner). Think a price of 13.00 isk for a unit of trit is when i start mining trit. I do not plan to move soon. Interested in hearing others thoughts. I also bought 2 billion iskies of trit on speculation near 3.6. Expect to double my money in 30 days
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2008.04.15 22:21:00 - [30] Originally by: wamingo Don't you think this change will be reversed by popular demand? Afterall, NOT being able to get a shuttle from anywhere is a huge change to the game. People will often have to fly pods now. I doubt it. There's always the vaunted rookie ships. This is also a grand opportunity for budding entrepreneurs to get into the production business. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2008.04.15 23:10:00 - [31] Edited by: Daeva Vios on 15/04/2008 23:11:02 Edited by: Daeva Vios on 15/04/2008 23:10:30 Imagine, the shuttle being a worthwhile blueprint. It would be interesting to see if the demand truly is as high as the doomcriers seem to believe. If the demand truly is that high, there will be a significant period of time when shuttles will yield worthwhile profits. It's worth noting that one item I had fun trading when the price of trit was low were the shuttles I'd acquired from a region-wide buy order of several thousand pieces at rock-bottom prices. I'd re-list the shuttles for just below NPC prices and they'd move fairly quickly. It was at a better price than I could get for the trit they would've yielded, but ultimately not worthwhile as a trade item. I wonder if that will change... ------------------------------------- NECB
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.15 23:57:00 - [32] I didn't actually think about that. I'll have to start making hundreds of shuttles and scattering them acros the galaxy for my characters. In other news, those of you who thought trit was going to stay at 5-6 for more than a few hours are amusing =P
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2008.04.16 00:25:00 - [33] i believe, as soon as trit hits 14.8 isk and passes arkonor in value (today's zyd and meg price), the devs will find an alternative -.- - putting the gist back into logistics
Jennai The Greater Goon	Posted - 2008.04.16 00:36:00 - [34] Originally by: Ki Anna Originally by: Pang Grohl Because of these factors mining frigates could replace shuttles both as a source of low-end minerals, and as a cost effective small cargo ship, when their price gets high enough. Are any frigates still sold by NPC's? I am having a hard time confirming this using out-of-game tools and cannot currently log in to verify it myself. there are no NPC frigate orders left in Essence. the (tiny and overpriced) sell orders of the mid-to-long range small ammos have also been removed.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 01:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Roemy Schneider i believe, as soon as trit hits 14.8 isk and passes arkonor in value (today's zyd and meg price), the devs will find an alternative -.- I'm more and more thinking the alternative will be to shut down 0.0 and have everyone mining veld in 1.0 sec instead. If they actually fixed it properly the cap wouldn't be an issue because there would be plenty of supply.
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:02:00 - [36] I'm sorry.. Trit's still selling for 2.35. Not sure what region your in but the price spike (if it exists) is very local. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Kwint Sommer Lothian Quay Industries	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Ava Santiago I'm sorry.. Trit's still selling for 2.35. Not sure what region your in but the price spike (if it exists) is very local. The lowest sell in Jita is 3.90 and the lowest with any appreciable quantity is 3.99. The highest large buy order is 3.42. What region are you in? Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:39:00 - [38] Would 2.35 isk/trit happen to be in a low sec system? I am not sure when I ve seen a highsec system with any large amount of trit at 2.35 in awhile.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:45:00 - [39] Originally by: Ava Santiago I'm sorry.. Trit's still selling for 2.35. Not sure what region your in but the price spike (if it exists) is very local. It doesn't matter what it sells for in some out of the way station at 2 isk, if I'm sitting here looking at over a BILLION units with a BUY price of 3.11-3.23 isk in an outer empire highsec system, the value is somewhere above that. The 'real' value is ALWAYS between the buy and the sell orders. It doesn't have anything to do with how cheap you can find it, that's simply trade.
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.16 02:45:00 - [40] Metropolis Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Zora Gallente Tau Expeditions	Posted - 2008.04.16 03:23:00 - [41] So far in jita, it seems that manipulators tried to push up the price but too many people got impatient and started reselling huge volumes right away, undercutting each other in the process. The highest I saw was about 6.14 in sell orders and 4.10 in buy orders, but by now it has settled down quite a bit. huge volumes being moved all the time, but I think we will see the price move back to the established price base or even lower due to all the manipulation attempts. The npc shuttle removal really doesn't change as much as the psychological reaction people seem to be having about it. Like akita pointed out, prices were already established way below the cap for a long time. Exciting to watch the market move in almost realtime though. Made quite a bit of money off the manipulators as well, so not bad at all ;)
papamikeforthewin Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Ava Santiago Edited by: Ava Santiago on 16/04/2008 02:45:55 Metropolis - it does not appear minmater space has yet been affected by the manipulators. Id imagine a reason for this would be from JF plush convoys coming in from the Drone regions and dumping around Frul and Konora. They are moved for the zydrine but the trit is generally dumped at low market sell order prices.
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:13:00 - [43] Originally by: LaVista Vista Oh well, since my thread in general discussion was removed, lets go on here. Well what did you expect for trying to post something constructive in GD? Deus Ex Machina ~ Eve Corporation, Web Design, Gaming News, Music & Gadgets Blog
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.04.16 04:51:00 - [44] The price of trit was not capped by shuttles currently anyhow. Rather, it wasn't at that cap. So I don't understand why removing shuttles would change anything. The only reason prices are up is ludicrous speculation.
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:32:00 - [45] I sold all my trit at 3.89 I wasnt sure even why it was going up sense it was hovering around 3.35 plus or minus in Jita before they remove the shuttles. I have to agree with Shadarle though no real reason for the price to go up so I was happy to sell out even if I didnt hit the high.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:38:00 - [46] Originally by: Shadarle The price of trit was not capped by shuttles currently anyhow. Rather, it wasn't at that cap. So I don't understand why removing shuttles would change anything. The only reason prices are up is ludicrous speculation. How so? The cap relationship was clearly defined in the last QEN. As the volume of trit moved upwards, the volume of shuttles bought was identical. So from that we must assume that the shuttles WERE the cap. How can it be otherwise? Do people have hamster shuttles when prices go up, just to make sure they have trit if the market goes empty, just like people do in America if it starts snowing?
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:48:00 - [47] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 16/04/2008 05:51:30 Originally by: Ava Santiago Edited by: Ava Santiago on 16/04/2008 02:45:55 Metropolis - it does not appear minmater space has yet been affected by the manipulators. There are buy orders for 3.27 isk in Metropolis, and the market history shows 1.6 billion units moved on the 13th for an average of 3.0 isk. The average price for trit in Metropolis in September/October last year was over 3 isk/unit. There are many many large orders over 3 isk that are over a month old, so you are either deliberately lying or you flat out don't know how to read the market. It's true you can still buy limited quantities of trit there for as little as 2.7 isk/unit (many jumps into lowsec), but you can't even get enough to fill a freighter if you go up to 3 isk/unit. So quite simply the answer is Metropolis doesn't have very much demand for trit, nor very much for sale, it doesn't matter if it is cheap there, the fact that something is cheap in tiny quantities is common no matter what the product, you are in effect discounting in exchange for the effort required to move it, which is quite substantial. It's true though Metropolis has one of the lowest trit costs for all the regions, however it is going to be lower as a %, when the price rises in the Forge, it does rise in Metropolis, just not as high. We HAVE hit the trit cap before, but were not hitting it at the time the change made, so alot of the price now is manipulation, however a price > 3 isk is not unexpected. Not to mention some people probably paid the extra isk to get their trit from shuttles before, even though it was substantially cheaper not to, for the convenience factor.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:55:00 - [48] So, I just looked at a couple region markets for Tritanium prices, etc. Holy ****!
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 05:57:00 - [49] Originally by: LaVista Vista How so? The cap relationship was clearly defined in the last QEN. As the volume of trit moved upwards, the volume of shuttles bought was identical. The shuttles capped the price @ 3.6 isk/unit it is true, but before the patch you could buy trit for 3-3.3 isk / unit, when the price neared 3.6 isk / unit THEN the shuttles spiked, the relationship with the volume of shuttles was not identical, the huge spike in the sales of shuttles coincided with trit reaching almost 3.6 isk/unit (just under there some people would still buy for convenience, and it's impossible for it to go much above as anyone could with very little effort generate more trit. The main reason trit has gone up is because of insurance, and the cost of higher end products going down. We hit the cap when isogen/nocx/megacyte started to hit record lows, trit went up in response. The insurance payout is the real market cap, the basket as a whole can only get that low, when one goes down one or more must come up.
Lord Fitz Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 06:13:00 - [50] Out of interest, here's the caldari shuttles graph for the Forge http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0804/shuttles.jpg As you can see, when we did hit the price cap (around october), the sales of shuttles spiked. But then fell and was totally flat (ie the cap wasn't being used), until the 10th April, were 76,000 odd shuttles were sold, though the number of people buying shuttles that day isn't over the ordinary. So my guess is one guy knew this change was happening before the rest of us. (of course it's nearly impossible to prove or disprove, and I bet he knows that.)
Danari Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.16 08:55:00 - [51] Edited by: Danari on 16/04/2008 08:58:29 Hmm I have visibility into one of the racial capitals, and the 7-day buy average of trit and the current day's buy price of trit are both under 3.3. Sounds like Jita is the suck-all capital of the universe. lol and I'll bet a million units of trit that the above 2.35 was a typo for 3.25.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.16 09:03:00 - [52] Ow goody goody... I smell a price change. Ow my assets... you will liquify so fast now. Show me the profit! $-$ ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against big Irreversible Dinks The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.04.16 12:26:00 - [53] Umm look around for an NCP mod... you'll see that 4.5 per unit is the cap, and you can make upward of 2 billion units of Trit in a single station. It's still capped, and it's capped until these mods (and notice I said Mods meaning there is more then one) is removed, which will be unlikely but they should be. Amarr for Life
Alex Redwidth	Posted - 2008.04.16 13:48:00 - [54] As soon as I saw this my mining chars ran for 1.0-0.9 sec, lots of dense veld. I can't believe the number of people who claim this won't affect trit prices much, overnight shuttles in my region have gone from 9k to 23k at least and I'm consistently selling trit now for 3.8-4.0ISK. Seems like there'd be a market in finding which is the cheapest frig to make and selling that competively against shuttles.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.16 14:41:00 - [55] "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Ok, on a more somber note: Anyone buying a shuttle for over 63k is simply slooooooow or in beyond desperate hurry. Shuttle BPO: 45k (note this should be a one time cost) 4050 of trit at 4isk a pop: 16200 isk (assuming that perfect shuttle recipe was 3k trit - I'm at work someone else correct me - and the person making the shuttle has NO manufacturing skills and the price of trit is at 4) Manufacturing costs: what arround 1100isk to be conservative? I mean come on. just buy some slashers or atrons till the price stabilizes if your that desperate. one of my buddies who has practicaly no skills just told me it was 3400trit for him.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.04.16 14:50:00 - [56] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle The price of trit was not capped by shuttles currently anyhow. Rather, it wasn't at that cap. So I don't understand why removing shuttles would change anything. The only reason prices are up is ludicrous speculation. How so? The cap relationship was clearly defined in the last QEN. As the volume of trit moved upwards, the volume of shuttles bought was identical. So from that we must assume that the shuttles WERE the cap. How can it be otherwise? Do people have hamster shuttles when prices go up, just to make sure they have trit if the market goes empty, just like people do in America if it starts snowing? What he meant is that trit price before they removed shuttles was under shuttle cap. It was like 3.4-3.5. So when tritanium is traded at this price and shuttles are removed, it shouldn't have any significant effect (as they were not used as source for trit anyway). Btw the price is dropping already.
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:22:00 - [57] Through extensive research into this, a lot of my contacts in the moon industry, and a few other sources I cannot reveal, the price is going to shoot up substantially in the near future. A lot of people are about to work together to triple the price, to do this they are going to start holding back all their produced units for a week and will pool their money to buy out the market. This will happen within 48 hours.
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.16 15:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Ok, on a more somber note: Anyone buying a shuttle for over 63k is simply slooooooow or in beyond desperate hurry. Shuttle BPO: 45k (note this should be a one time cost) 4050 of trit at 4isk a pop: 16200 isk (assuming that perfect shuttle recipe was 3k trit - I'm at work someone else correct me - and the person making the shuttle has NO manufacturing skills and the price of trit is at 4) Manufacturing costs: what arround 1100isk to be conservative? I mean come on. just buy some slashers or atrons till the price stabilizes if your that desperate. one of my buddies who has practicaly no skills just told me it was 3400trit for him. No ME, perfect build skills is 2750, 2500 "perfect" ME (don't know the number offhand). Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.16 18:12:00 - [59] Originally by: Havok Pierce No ME, perfect build skills is 2750, 2500 "perfect" ME (don't know the number offhand). Tks. Either way it just lowers the price point. My point here is that if you're desperate enough to buy a shuttle at 1mil you really should be aware that the MAX cost for doing it yourself is much much much lower. Course if your mission isk is that much higher that buying a 1mil is shuttle allows you to make more per hour - then go ahead. I'm trying to point out that the FUD over reaction going on now is ridiculous. If you're that desperate, just get someone from your corp in a fast frigate head to empire, pick up a bpo of the closest shuttle, head back to 0.0 melt some rat loot and build a bunch of shuttle. Put them in the common hangar of your corp and the pilots can just grab em as they need em. It's just not that hard.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.04.16 18:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Robacz Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Shadarle The price of trit was not capped by shuttles currently anyhow. Rather, it wasn't at that cap. So I don't understand why removing shuttles would change anything. The only reason prices are up is ludicrous speculation. How so? The cap relationship was clearly defined in the last QEN. As the volume of trit moved upwards, the volume of shuttles bought was identical. So from that we must assume that the shuttles WERE the cap. How can it be otherwise? Do people have hamster shuttles when prices go up, just to make sure they have trit if the market goes empty, just like people do in America if it starts snowing? What he meant is that trit price before they removed shuttles was under shuttle cap. It was like 3.4-3.5. So when tritanium is traded at this price and shuttles are removed, it shouldn't have any significant effect (as they were not used as source for trit anyway). Btw the price is dropping already. Robacz summed up my point nicely. But I'd like to point out again for people how easily statistics can confuse people. LV sees a dev post something and completely throws out logic and common sense because of it. If you look at the data then it's clear shuttles were not affecting the price of trit recently, they did at one point, but they weren't recently. Statistics are wrong 44.19% of the time, always remember that. They can also be used to prove any point.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.16 18:41:00 - [61] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 16/04/2008 18:51:34 Originally by: Robacz ... trit price before they removed shuttles was under shuttle cap. It was like 3.4-3.5. So when tritanium is traded at this price and shuttles are removed, it shouldn't have any significant effect (as they were not used as source for trit anyway). The reason that the price remained in the range it did was the price shadowing effect caused by the existence of the hard cap. That is to say that no-one would attempt to engineer the price upwards of 3.6 because it would have been pointless. With the cap removed, there is nothing to dictate trit prices except supply vs demand. It would be easy to assume that supply and demand kept the price around 3-3.4 before the removal of the cap and that it should therefore have remained in that range, but this is not the case. The hard cap kept the price at that level. When demand or market manipulation force the price up, it is quite possible that it will find a new stable range at a far higher level, since all parties may become content to pay/receive the higher price and, in the long term, we cannot predict how much cash committed miners will want to be paid for their efforts, now that they are not forced to accept a price below 3.6. In short, the upper price before the cap removal was meaningless, regardless of supply levels not necessitating the widespread use of shuttles.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:06:00 - [62] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 16/04/2008 18:51:34 Originally by: Robacz ... trit price before they removed shuttles was under shuttle cap. It was like 3.4-3.5. So when tritanium is traded at this price and shuttles are removed, it shouldn't have any significant effect (as they were not used as source for trit anyway). The reason that the price remained in the range it did was the price shadowing effect caused by the existence of the hard cap. That is to say that no-one would attempt to engineer the price upwards of 3.6 because it would have been pointless. With the cap removed, there is nothing to dictate trit prices except supply vs demand. It would be easy to assume that supply and demand kept the price around 3-3.4 before the removal of the cap and that it should therefore have remained in that range, but this is not the case. The hard cap kept the price at that level. When demand or market manipulation force the price up, it is quite possible that it will find a new stable range at a far higher level, since all parties may become content to pay/receive the higher price and, in the long term, we cannot predict how much cash committed miners will want to be paid for their efforts, now that they are not forced to accept a price below 3.6. In short, the upper price before the cap removal was meaningless, regardless of supply levels not necessitating the widespread use of shuttles. Sorry, that just doesn't hold water. The entire idea behind supply/demand curves is that prices gravitate to the point at which the level of supply equals the level of demand. If shuttles were not being used heavily to refine into trit recently (which they weren't) then they were not affecting the price. If the supply remains the same but the price rises the demand will drop (as some items will no longer be profitable to produce). A drop in demand and perhaps an increase in supply (due to increased price making mining more profitable) would mean a drop in prices. There is no way trit could handle an increased price unless demand increased or supply dropped or a combo of both. The only way you could argue otherwise is if shuttles were supplying a large amount of trit, which it doesn't seem they were.
Aceoil D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:19:00 - [63] Tritanium is the hot topic of the week. With the price cap removed, so is the hesitation in the market. In the next few weeks we should see people jumping into the trit market to try and manipulate prices . Squash supply. Try and raise the price as high as it can go. This tritanium could triple or quadruple in price until macro miners and other miners can switch gears and try to fill the inflated prices.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:31:00 - [64] Originally by: Shadarle Sorry, that just doesn't hold water. The entire idea behind supply/demand curves is that prices gravitate to the point at which the level of supply equals the level of demand. Well we're gonna disagree on this point, but that's nothing new. You are correct and you state basic economic principles which are hard to disagree with. But your statement only holds true when the price is unrestricted. People may choose to charge more for their goods simply because they now have that freedom and this may lead to a supply/demand equilibrium being established at a higher level. It's about a change in perceived value. Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry )
cosmoray	Posted - 2008.04.16 19:34:00 - [65] Nuts! 1. Yes, the shuttles were a top end cap 2. No, the trit cap wasn't being breached recently so, I can ssume: All production before the patch was occuring without the need for shuttle reprocessing, so I can equally assume that post patch production the trit amount used would stay the same. There is enough trit in the marketplace that is required, without injections from NPC purchasing. Therefore some speculation is occuring, which means that miners will just switch back to trit and fill those lovely buy orders!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.16 21:10:00 - [66] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/04/2008 21:14:51 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 16/04/2008 18:51:34 Originally by: Robacz ... trit price before they removed shuttles was under shuttle cap. It was like 3.4-3.5. So when tritanium is traded at this price and shuttles are removed, it shouldn't have any significant effect (as they were not used as source for trit anyway). The reason that the price remained in the range it did was the price shadowing effect caused by the existence of the hard cap. That is to say that no-one would attempt to engineer the price upwards of 3.6 because it would have been pointless. With the cap removed, there is nothing to dictate trit prices except supply vs demand. It would be easy to assume that supply and demand kept the price around 3-3.4 before the removal of the cap and that it should therefore have remained in that range, but this is not the case. The hard cap kept the price at that level. When demand or market manipulation force the price up, it is quite possible that it will find a new stable range at a far higher level, since all parties may become content to pay/receive the higher price and, in the long term, we cannot predict how much cash committed miners will want to be paid for their efforts, now that they are not forced to accept a price below 3.6. In short, the upper price before the cap removal was meaningless, regardless of supply levels not necessitating the widespread use of shuttles. It is possible you are right, but then it mean that people was not willing to pay for transportation of the tritanum in proportion to what the haulers did feel was a right reward, so if the builder was lacking some tritanium to build his stuff he did felt it was more efficient to reprocess shuttles that import tritanium from several systems and pay a premium for the delivery. If a player is willing to put a buy order whit some range and limited minimum quantity he can easily gather tritanium under the standard market price. What has a big influence is the cost of transportation. If I have to move 4 millions unit of tritanium for several jumps with a iteron V I want at least 1 million for my trip. That could mean an increase of 25 to 40% for the tritanium cost (i.e. going from 3 isk to 4 for example). So transport costs and time have an heavy influence on tritanium cost. The availability of shuttles was influencing the price as, when the cost of transportation was high, it was convenient to recycle the shuttle in loco.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Aceoil Tritanium is the hot topic of the week. With the price cap removed, so is the hesitation in the market. In the next few weeks we should see people jumping into the trit market to try and manipulate prices . Squash supply. Try and raise the price as high as it can go. This tritanium could triple or quadruple in price until macro miners and other miners can switch gears and try to fill the inflated prices. Right idea, except this entire cycle happened in under a day and is well on its way to winding down already. Got to be quick around here =D
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.16 22:43:00 - [68] Originally by: Alex Redwidth I can't believe the number of people who claim this won't affect trit prices much Then you should go back and read WHY we're saying that again. Since we weren't at the price cap, and hadn't been in months, the price of shuttles has no bearing on the price of trit. Now that the NPC orders have been removed you'll soon find that the opposite will become the norm. Originally by: Brisco Smiley holding back all their produced units for a week...This will happen within 48 hours. How much to buy your Caramilk secret? As a side note, someone asked me in a channel last night if people rushing to build shuttles to cash in on the lack of NPC orders wouldn't drive trit prices up. Ignoring unlimited free noob ships for the moment, I pointed out that the trit I use to build 1 Fenrir could build over 37,000 shuttles, so no, shuttle production would have no impact on the greater market
Lady Arthe Global Tech Solutions	Posted - 2008.04.17 02:14:00 - [69] Refine Undock Dock Refine Undock Dock Refine Repeat with multiple clients. OMGAD ISK SHUTTLE FARMING !
Alex Redwidth	Posted - 2008.04.17 03:00:00 - [70] Originally by: SonOfAGhost Then you should go back and read WHY we're saying that again. Since we weren't at the price cap, and hadn't been in months, the price of shuttles has no bearing on the price of trit. Now that the NPC orders have been removed you'll soon find that the opposite will become the norm. Well that's fine, but I'm very much a subscriber to Tommy TenKreds' view regarding how the cap affected trading. Given trit's steady rise and sudden tapering off around 3.4-3.45, to me that looks directly like what he's describing (especially as units traded didn't increase) in that the 'threat' of the 3.6 cap was influencing pricing and that removing that will see trit regain the steady price increase. 4.0 might be a little optimistic, but I think 3.7-3.8 is realistic once the panic buying wears off.
Daeva Vios New Eden Credit Bureau	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:01:00 - [71] Originally by: Alex Redwidth Originally by: SonOfAGhost Then you should go back and read WHY we're saying that again. Since we weren't at the price cap, and hadn't been in months, the price of shuttles has no bearing on the price of trit. Now that the NPC orders have been removed you'll soon find that the opposite will become the norm. Well that's fine, but I'm very much a subscriber to Tommy TenKreds' view regarding how the cap affected trading. Given trit's steady rise and sudden tapering off around 3.4-3.45, to me that looks directly like what he's describing (especially as units traded didn't increase) in that the 'threat' of the 3.6 cap was influencing pricing and that removing that will see trit regain the steady price increase. 4.0 might be a little optimistic, but I think 3.7-3.8 is realistic once the panic buying wears off. There was no 'threat' of hitting the ceiling that was preventing tritanium from hitting that ceiling. If demand dictated that prices rise to the ceiling and stay there, they would never have dropped below the ceiling, barring poor mathematical skills. The fact is, demand was not that great and is not that great now. This also is not 'panic buying'. Trit's rise was driven more by cold speculation than easily excitable manufacturers. ------------------------------------- NECB
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:03:00 - [72] Originally by: Lady Arthe Refine Undock Dock Refine Undock Dock Refine Repeat with multiple clients. OMGAD ISK SHUTTLE FARMING ! Except you get nub ships, not shuttles, and you can't refine them to anything. Good story.
Danari Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:31:00 - [73] Gawd I wish Professor Bunsen's site had caught on...
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:00:00 - [74] Originally by: Alex Redwidth Originally by: SonOfAGhost Then you should go back and read WHY we're saying that again. Since we weren't at the price cap, and hadn't been in months, the price of shuttles has no bearing on the price of trit. Now that the NPC orders have been removed you'll soon find that the opposite will become the norm. Well that's fine, but I'm very much a subscriber to Tommy TenKreds' view regarding how the cap affected trading. Given trit's steady rise and sudden tapering off around 3.4-3.45, to me that looks directly like what he's describing (especially as units traded didn't increase) in that the 'threat' of the 3.6 cap was influencing pricing and that removing that will see trit regain the steady price increase. 4.0 might be a little optimistic, but I think 3.7-3.8 is realistic once the panic buying wears off. Except the cap wasn't really 3.6 like you claim. If anyone actually started buying shuttles in quantity the price would have gone up. So the threat was really not at 3.6 but over 4. Kinda throws your theory out the window if you ask me. I want to know which buyers were not buying or were buying more because they were afraid of the shuttle cap on trit. Do you think even 1% of the player base even knows it exists? I don't.
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:19:00 - [75] the current demand for trit has everything to do with everyone and their brother suddenly buying trit to make shuttles. Give it a week.. trit will drop. What is fascinating is how fast industrialists switch gears to supply new markets.
abraheam Dirty Denizens	Posted - 2008.04.17 05:42:00 - [76] Edited by: abraheam on 17/04/2008 05:43:43 I personaly believe that the 3.6 shuttle price was somewhat of a deterent. The traders that I do know dont bother with anything under a 10% margin, especial when they are taking a chance on manipulation. It is true that the ceiling was more like 4, but who are you going to bag at that price when any hardcore buyer is just going to buy shuttles. The profit margin due to the volume you needed to sell(and move, just as important when dealing with trit IMO) made trit untouchable before. The main reason is because you had an unlimited source of trit in every station system in empire. The price, and MOVEMENT was not a problem. Now both of those factors are out the window. IMO movement of trit now, because time is money for large producers, and traders will cause a rise in trit price by itself. ninja edit- however, I do not think the sky is falling.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.17 08:29:00 - [77] Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Hehe. Thats a pretty good song from Tiamat actually. Pretty proper one even for this thread. On subject itself I do not see tritanium in long term going at a lot higher prices as we still have insurance system in place and that in turn sets certain limits on mineral baskets (altho in the wrong end of it setting lower cap for for mineral basket). What I'm getting at is, that if tritanium goes up a lot it would mean that higher end ones come even lower and more and more miners move into veld mining increasing supply. Unless some cough Raven cough ships move away from insurance induced lower price cap allowing for whole mineral basket to increase in value. I find it somewhat unlikley tho bcos 'i mine it and it's free crowd' who (if tritanium gets more expencive by a wide margin) see it as lower construction cost for their Ravens (as they usually buy only high ends and semiafk mine the low ends).
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:30:00 - [78] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Hehe. Thats a pretty good song from ~~Tiamat~~ The Rolling Stones actually. Fixed!
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.17 10:34:00 - [79] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 17/04/2008 10:35:56 Originally by: SonOfAGhost Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Hehe. Thats the first line from a pretty good song from ~~Tiamat~~ The Rolling Stones actually. Fixed! Fixed more! Funny how an elephant's behind will always look like an elephant's behind and nothing more to some.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:01:00 - [80] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste Originally by: Lady Arthe Refine Undock Dock Refine Undock Dock Refine Repeat with multiple clients. OMGAD ISK SHUTTLE FARMING ! Except you get nub ships, not shuttles, and you can't refine them to anything. Good story. You still get 1 trit each time :)
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:02:00 - [81] think one point people are missing is the point of convieniance. That is to say lots of systems are around that have limited on no supply of trit on the market due to every man and his dog moving goods to the trade hubs. If I am 8 jumps from the closest supply of trit at a reasonable price then it would make more sence to me to buy shuttles and reprosses and not have to make a 16 jump round trip to save .2isk per trit. Time is an important factor in the market value of any product how many of you out there sell products away from trade hubs at upto a 50% mark up. I do all the time. So the huge spike in the shuttle sales was due to the universal price of trit going higher than 3.6 I would bet that of the 200K caldari shuttles sold each day 50% upwards were bought to reprocess for quick access to mats. but i suppose even if all 200k were being used for trit it is still only a small amount of daily traded amounts so it wouldn't affect prices too drasticly. what will affect the price is manipulation and panick buying. I bet lots of maufactures have bought up vast quanties of trit now for fear of a rising price in future.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.17 11:52:00 - [82] I think the point that a lot of people miss with the 3.6isk price cap is that prices approaching the cap are still constrained by it. People want to sell their Trit. If demand drives prices towards 3.6 then you have to sell under that level, otherwise people use shuttles. The market price would not reach or exceed the cap, otherwise mined Trit would never sell. When you factor in convenience and movement costs, the price must remain well under the cap, otherwise people will choose shuttles over the time cost of hauling. I think it is fair to say that the trit market probably was already capped by shuttles, and that upward price movement is likely. This may be somewhat negated by short term relocation of cheap Trit, but I think long term miners will price their trit somewhat above the prior level. After all, even at 4isk the profit per hour is not amazing, and the people who buy trit are unlikely to start mining themselves to undercut that price - the can invest their time far more profitably. I think, if anything, prices will rise again once cheap trit has been relocated - until miners find a comfortable selling price. The potential price rise on produced goods if you inflate trit by 20% would easily be absorbed by the buyers, the ISK is certainly out their to afford it. It will also be interesting to see how the prices of other minerals will be effected if miners switch to trit in favour of previously more profitable rocks. As for market manipulation, I think that will continue for some time. The Trit market is actually quite easy to corner for a region, and resellers still have a large margin before they get near another cap. If they are hoarding trit, keeping it out of the hands of manufacturers, ultimately they can control supply to raise demand, and thus prices. Some people with already very fat wallets are probably dancing around with glee.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:15:00 - [83] Originally by: SonOfAGhost Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Hehe. Thats a pretty good song from ~~Tiamat~~ The Rolling Stones actually. Fixed! Tiamat, 'Skeleton Skeletron' album, song 'Symphaty For The Devil' first lines. Not aware of the rolling stones versions as I'm not that old to be familiar with their albums. The Tiamat version of the song seemed pretty suitable for the thread in that sense that it kinda hints 'I have seen a lot and know more, so hey, trust me. Buy tritanium, buy it a lot and fast and do it above 4.0 isk/unit'. Ofc most regular readers of Market discussions section have their own saltbox with them when reading as anything going in here has usually some agenda buried in it somewhere.
Jaeger Orlofsson VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Carniflex Tiamat, 'Skeleton Skeletron' album, song 'Symphaty For The Devil' first lines. Not aware of the rolling stones versions as I'm not that old to be familiar with their albums.... Sympathy for the Devil
Cardo Fescio Trident Future Technologies	Posted - 2008.04.17 12:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Avon As for market manipulation, I think that will continue for some time. The Trit market is actually quite easy to corner for a region, and resellers still have a large margin before they get near another cap. If they are hoarding trit, keeping it out of the hands of manufacturers, ultimately they can control supply to raise demand, and thus prices. Some people with already very fat wallets are probably dancing around with glee. They might try it, but don't forget many (ex-)miners are sitting on large quantities of tritanium (as in serveral freighterloads of trit) located in places where selling was/is pointless due to low prices. I'd say the first market manipulation attempts would only suck up that "idle" tritanium (which now even won't show on the market).
BlondieBC Minmatar Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.17 14:38:00 - [86] The forge region has a trit price of 3.64 yesterday, so the shuttles were a cap. The next few days are important to see if the price settles back to around 3.5 or goes up on a daily basis. I think the latter, but either way is possible.

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:03:00 - [87] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: SonOfAGhost Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Letrange "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste" Hehe. Thats a pretty good song from ~~Tiamat~~ The Rolling Stones actually. Fixed! Tiamat, 'Skeleton Skeletron' album, song 'Symphaty For The Devil' first lines. Not aware of the rolling stones versions as I'm not that old to be familiar with their albums. The Tiamat version of the song seemed pretty suitable for the thread in that sense that it kinda hints 'I have seen a lot and know more, so hey, trust me. Personally I have always preferred the Natalie Merchant Cover. Not as heavy as Gunz n Roses but not as 'dirge like' as teh Rolling Stones Original. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Dr Brains Boli Me Kurc	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:21:00 - [88] I just see more people moving to high sec to mine trit. After the initial price explosions, the miners will catch up and we'll see the usual prices going up and down a bit at a normal level. But this is another step backwards in the effort to make lowsec more appealing.
Cynosural Theorist	Posted - 2008.04.17 16:32:00 - [89] I predict large volumes of destroyed Ibis'
Harisdrop Gallente EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.04.17 17:26:00 - [90] This is last remnant of the old EVE style market. Thank goodness. I look forward to factional warfare. Hopefully camping in a NPC corp and playing the same EVE I play will come to a flaming end.
Eirlie	Posted - 2008.04.17 21:05:00 - [91] Originally by: Havok Pierce No ME, perfect build skills is 2750, 2500 "perfect" ME (don't know the number offhand). Perfect build (which should become theoretical at some point, right?) is listed in the item DB, like our Gallente Shuttle. 2500 is the correct number.
Steppa Gallente Dawn of Fire Black-Out	Posted - 2008.04.17 21:40:00 - [92] The very fact that such a debate occurs in such detail in an MMO, and this fact on it's own, sets Eve apart from other MMO's. Now...if it were just fun to play for more than a month at a time.
Zarxoniuz	Posted - 2008.04.17 23:03:00 - [93] Edited by: Zarxoniuz on 17/04/2008 23:06:42 So there won't be any shuttles, outside highsec's on acceptable price. Why don't you make shuttle just unrefinable (only these, which were sold by NPC), or a choice between recieving Rookie ship, or 'unrefinable' shuttle, when docking on capsule? resolving fast transport problem, without subsiding...
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.04.18 00:11:00 - [94] Originally by: Zarxoniuz Why don't you make shuttle just unrefinable (only these, which were sold by NPC), or a choice between recieving Rookie ship, or 'unrefinable' shuttle, when docking on capsule? resolving fast transport problem, without subsiding... Cos both of those 'solutions' would keep Eve at play school level, like stabilizers on a kiddy's trike. You already get a free (crap) ship at any station you like. Anyway this is the wrong thread for your whine, not to mention the wrong forum. Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry )
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.04.18 00:30:00 - [95] Seems to me that the pricecap functioned just as international trade for the tritprice. As long as "domestic" producers can make it for 3,6 (or whatever the cap was) the consumers will buy from them. When the domestic producers no longer can sell for 3,6 or lower consumers will turn to imorted goods (in this case shuttles). Shuttles practically introduce a horisontal price curve just as RL pricecaps or trade (relatively). I have never heard of a "shadowing effect" on the price having a role in this scenario. As in RL the price ought to settled at the supply and demand equalibrium. If the pricecap is set higher then the current equalibrium it has no bearing on the price, given a fully competative market is in effect.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.04.18 10:12:00 - [96] The cap has not disappeared completely - it's just shifted a little, certainly no further than 4.4 isk/unit. This is because pure trit is still available from NPCs in the form of Civilian Afterburners @ 3.6 isk/unit, rising to 4.4 if people buy lots in the same location. This is nowhere near as convenient as shuttles were; sale of these modules is restricted to new player corp stations in 1.0 space, rather than every station everywhere, but there are starting systems within a few jumps of each of the major trade hubs. Until these are removed as well, we're not going to see any really significant changes.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.18 11:21:00 - [97] Well, I am selling millions of Trit at 4.15 now within a day. But I wonder if this is gonna hold. In the meantime, fill my wallet baby :P
Oleksandr Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.04.18 20:42:00 - [98] This is an awesome news for Capitalism in Eve! I want more such changes to Eve markets!
Market Bandit	Posted - 2008.04.19 13:36:00 - [99] To infinity and beyond! that is all.
Astarte Nosferatu Minmatar Canes Pugnaces	Posted - 2008.04.19 15:31:00 - [100] Trit is still at 3.7 in Amarr Prime, it hasn't increased nearly that much as people would think.
Letrange Minmatar Chaosstorm Corporation Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2008.04.19 16:40:00 - [101] Originally by: Carniflex <snip to avoid pyramid quote> Tiamat, 'Skeleton Skeletron' album, song 'Symphaty For The Devil' first lines. Not aware of the rolling stones versions as I'm not that old to be familiar with their albums. The Tiamat version of the song seemed pretty suitable for the thread in that sense that it kinda hints 'I have seen a lot and know more, so hey, trust me. Buy tritanium, buy it a lot and fast and do it above 4.0 isk/unit'. Ofc most regular readers of Market discussions section have their own saltbox with them when reading as anything going in here has usually some agenda buried in it somewhere. I was actually referring to the Rolling Stones version (being old enough).
Ki Anna Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.04.19 16:59:00 - [102] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Trit is still at 3.7 in Amarr Prime, it hasn't increased nearly that much as people would think. That's because the cap is still in place via Civilian Afterburners. Until they are nerf'ed the Trit price in hubs cannot be expected to go above 3.6 + the effort required to ship trit from the newbe stations.
Kuan Yida Minmatar Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.21 21:40:00 - [103] I'm no miner, but I did sell 25 shuttles in Egbinger yesterday for 100,000ISK each! http://kuan-huangyinglong.blogspot.com/
Oakraiven Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.04.22 18:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro The cap has not disappeared completely - it's just shifted a little, certainly no further than 4.4 isk/unit. This is because pure trit is still available from NPCs in the form of Civilian Afterburners @ 3.6 isk/unit, rising to 4.4 if people buy lots in the same location. This is nowhere near as convenient as shuttles were; sale of these modules is restricted to new player corp stations in 1.0 space, rather than every station everywhere, but there are starting systems within a few jumps of each of the major trade hubs. Until these are removed as well, we're not going to see any really significant changes. Removeing Civi modules is a non starter, as their the only units you can mount without skills for new pilots. They would basicaly need to do some combination of the folowing 1) go back and give everyone the skills needed to fit the AB-1 Sheild and Armor reps and cargo holds and remove the Civi modules from the game 2) make them non refinable and replace them on the Loottables 3) Fix the "New player experience" path that has you makeing them (the Manufacturing path) 4) Make New "Civi modules" for the same price and make thoes non refinable and sellable, and make thoes selable in the newbistations and remove the old civi modles from the newbistations then do the same for everything else still suplied by the NPC corps
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.04.22 20:13:00 - [105] Originally by: Oakraiven Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro The cap has not disappeared completely - it's just shifted a little, certainly no further than 4.4 isk/unit. This is because pure trit is still available from NPCs in the form of Civilian Afterburners @ 3.6 isk/unit, rising to 4.4 if people buy lots in the same location. This is nowhere near as convenient as shuttles were; sale of these modules is restricted to new player corp stations in 1.0 space, rather than every station everywhere, but there are starting systems within a few jumps of each of the major trade hubs. Until these are removed as well, we're not going to see any really significant changes. Removeing Civi modules is a non starter, as their the only units you can mount without skills for new pilots. They would basicaly need to do some combination of the folowing 1) go back and give everyone the skills needed to fit the AB-1 Sheild and Armor reps and cargo holds and remove the Civi modules from the game 2) make them non refinable and replace them on the Loottables 3) Fix the "New player experience" path that has you makeing them (the Manufacturing path) 4) Make New "Civi modules" for the same price and make thoes non refinable and sellable, and make thoes selable in the newbistations and remove the old civi modles from the newbistations then do the same for everything else still suplied by the NPC corps I have the dubt that is intended. This situation give a pricecap for the high sec trading hubs, effectively giving a maximum reward for high sec veldspater mining. At the same time the pricecap has a diminishing influence as you move away from the starting systems and you go in low sec or 0.0,location where the trit hungry capships are built. Naturally it is possible to move the minerals to low sec or 0.0, but as compression has been nerfed it is not so easy as in the past, giving more reasons to 0.0 alliances to develop local economies.
Janice Forge House Ordos	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:04:00 - [106] some of you have a odd sense of economics and what a price cap means.... typically a price cap is only hit when demand is so high prices can go up to it cap or no cap, (not worth the hassel of melting down shuttles for trit sort of demand) otherwise a price cap is a ceiling that is never usually even reached b/c there is little incentive to even price near it as the convience of the shuttles to trit cap outwieghs paying .10 or less saved per unit is greater than that level of loss basically, caps are rarely hit, they are also rarely even approached regardless of demand level. you can expect trit to get with in 20% or less of the new cap, and be much more in tune with free market pressures
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.04.24 18:15:00 - [107] lol! you know what 20% of 3.8 is right? Please post constructively. ~Saint
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.04.24 19:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Myrdyr lol! you know what 20% of 3.8 is right? Yeah, that 20% number was a joke. Make it 2-3% and it might be somewhat accurate in the trit market.
Janice Forge House Ordos	Posted - 2008.04.25 13:33:00 - [109] 100-20 = 80 please try to keep up but i digress and no longer care, as i don't buy trit :P
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.04.25 14:17:00 - [110] Yep I knew it we have a real math genius on our hands. 80% of 3.8 (or within 20%) is 3.04, which is far lower than the buy prices in any major hub.
Dariah Stardweller Kuruwasu Industries	Posted - 2008.04.30 11:16:00 - [111] bump Well, seems like trit prices are well on the way down to 3.4 ish again. My 10m sell order at 3.7 is avoided like the plague at least
Cividan Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.30 11:50:00 - [112] Why not just only double the price of shuttle sold by npc that way it would not be used anymore to reprocess for tritanium with a price of 7.2 trit per unit would be out of the question and would still make a cheap and easy transport way
Alusha Caldari Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2008.04.30 13:44:00 - [113] Originally by: Cividan Why not just only double the price of shuttle sold by npc that way it would not be used anymore to reprocess for tritanium with a price of 7.2 trit per unit would be out of the question and would still make a cheap and easy transport way I would say bring back shuttles at 25k, they are a convenience I wish would be available. INNOVATION AND RESEARCH services
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.04.30 14:10:00 - [114] Or something like that, yes indeed. I really don't see a "lucrative new shuttle market" being worth any of the bother it has caused.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.30 16:34:00 - [115] Removing the trit price cap is good. Not having shuttles around is bad. And no I don't particularly expect players to pick up the slack to stock every random station with shuttles. It's just not worth the time it takes to haul them around and manufacture them for such low profits and low volume. Big popular stations will probably have shuttles produced, but chances are you already have spare shuttles lying around there anyway.
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:26:00 - [116] Originally by: Ulstan Removing the trit price cap is good. Not having shuttles around is bad. And no I don't particularly expect players to pick up the slack to stock every random station with shuttles. It's just not worth the time it takes to haul them around and manufacture them for such low profits and low volume. Big popular stations will probably have shuttles produced, but chances are you already have spare shuttles lying around there anyway. Welcome to the (nearly) ultimate and only player driven market in an MMO? I'm all for removing NPC sell orders entirely except for skillbooks and civilian gear (which shouldn't be able to be reprocessed IMHO). I think even trade goods should be player manufactured only. Honestly who thinks NPC trading makes good money? I gave up on that after 2 days, having found a better moneymaker at 1 million SP. I'd LOVE to see what happened if that happened. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Erasmus Torn Torn Intergalactic	Posted - 2008.05.01 12:50:00 - [117] Without going into the quality issues of a price cap - like rent control in RL - which doesn't really apply to an input like Tritanium - the removal of a shuttle price cap does allow for more movement along Shardale's supply and demand curves. When a new Trit hog like a Titan is released and everybody wants one (read Demand) now players will gain the iskies rather than NPC's. Speculator's on new patch's rejoice! The REAL question is will this SHIFT the curves upward? Short-term: Players will catch on - dust off those old mining ships, maybe learn the refining and scrap metal skills, do some missions to increase standing to help with refining efficiency - I'd expect some garage cleanings reducing mod supplies as a melt-a-thon occurs. As usual - sell the picks and shovels - don't mine the gold. Some call that the secondary effect. The secondary secondary effect will be ganking pirates blasting highly skilled pilots in antiquated ships for fun and profit. Long-term Supply: As long as there are tons of tritanium to mine and refine this is not really a big deal. Yes, the Dev's took out the lowest common denominator - well, except for Veldspar. Supply is available and if prices rise miners will react. Movement along the curve. Unless the asteroid supply gets scarce. Long-term Demand: Look for new tritanium hogs! In the meantime enjoy the runs on the curves. Ripples are beautiful. Devil take the hindmost! I'm gonna go with the Stones.

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