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The Naglfar. Worth a try?

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Relnala Event.Horizon	Posted - 2008.05.08 01:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Auralis I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread. It shouldn't be that bad to get into a Phoenix should it? Besides, then you'd have Caldari BS 5 for the Raven... -Liang Don't use any dreads that use citadels. Optimally, The revelations is the easiest dread to use. Cit torps are easily smartbombed to death.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 03:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Relnala Don't use any dreads that use citadels. Optimally, The revelations is the easiest dread to use. Cit torps are easily smartbombed to death. Yeah, I gathered that from the rest of this thread. I'm kinda sad, because I'm most of the way to a Phoenix already, and would be essentially starting over to be in a Rev. -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 08:12:00 - [93] Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont. so you are saying, theoric damage on paper is more important than actual damage dealt in a real combat situation?
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Layla Ashley Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont. so you are saying, theoric damage on paper is more important than actual damage dealt in a real combat situation? Get a clue please. Example, abaddon and tempest vs a mega, domi has say 80/60/70/70 resists, fairly standard. It takes the abaddon and tempest 5 seconds to blow through shields, and a full minute to go through armor, with the tempest outdamaging the abaddon on armor by a significant percentage. Guess whos higher on the km? The abaddon, because it melted the unresisted shields, even though the shields arent even a significant portion of the mega's hp buffer. Get a clue mkay?
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Gamesguy Get a clue please. what am i supposed to do? i didn't understand your pots (you sad: the amarr ships do the most damage in the log evenso they don't do the most damage) which makes no sense to me. so i was asking you if i did understood you correctly or not. so you are saying if i don't understand something i should not ask about it but ask about it? kinda confused now. or was it to hard to see that my post was a question? anyway, you last post explained it in an understandable way. you weren't talking about damage dealt but about average dps
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:57:00 - [97] This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. how do we know this? by paper calculation? if a ship has a strong active tank, the shield will factor in only very low in the total damage. on the other hand, if they don't have, the shield act as stong buffer, and therefor it's important to kill them and you can't neglect them. other ships would have needed longer to kill the shilds and therefor their speed advantage on the armor would be lost
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:29:00 - [99] Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. Not true, I get usually on top of killmail when i am in my geddon, even if i start to fire only after shiedls are almost gone (the bane of not having space for sensor boosters :P). THe ragen is indeed a big advantage. But Amarr DO have far higher DPS at reasonable range than other ships. Plain and simple. GAllente takes several seconds to get into blaster range. Minmatar AC have reduced dps due to AC being always on falloff. A target at 15 km is: (typical range after jump in) .at 80% damage range for a tempest with barrage. .out of close range for mega but in range for long range ammo .still in range for max damage close range ammo for an armageddon. That combined with fact taht PL do have a very high base dps( compared with lets say a standard fitted tempest) is what makes amarr be on top of sub capital KM. On Capitals km the reason is very simple, dont loose time reloading, specially if you in an APoc tah can fire for hours non stop. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 16:32:00 - [100] Thanks guys - that's a great discussion of why the damage discrepancy might be there. I think that Kagura has the right of it, personally. It seems to line out with my experience. It is interesting to realize that vaporizing the shield hp adds so much "damage done" - but I think it's important not to discount it. -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.09 02:44:00 - [101] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 09/05/2008 02:44:43 Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not sure how great the fit is, but this is probably something close to what I'd do: [Naglfar, Armor Tanked Nag] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Warden II x5 Ed: It should be noted that I don't fly the Nag (I flew it on Armageddon day and was underwhelmed). I have no intention of ever flying the Nag. What happened to the DCII ? (damage control II) You better skip an EANMII for a DCII. It's HUGE difference. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.09 04:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Layla Ashley Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. how do we know this? by paper calculation? if a ship has a strong active tank, the shield will factor in only very low in the total damage. on the other hand, if they don't have, the shield act as stong buffer, and therefor it's important to kill them and you can't neglect them. other ships would have needed longer to kill the shilds and therefor their speed advantage on the armor would be lost Argh, to make it simpler for you. Domi with active armor tank, more or less similar amounts of shield and armor. An abaddon fires on the domi for 2 volleys and melts all the shields, then say a phoenix hits the domi and strips all its armor. Abaddon fires again, takes out the structure before a 2nd volley from the phoenix hits. Guess whos higher on the km? The abaddon. Sieged dreads are all about hp buffer, its own repair doesn't contribute to very much. Ergo, amarr does a lot of damage against the unresisted shields, and tend to show up higher on the kms.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.09 14:28:00 - [103] sorry, that wasn't my point. i understand very well why amarr is top of km most the time. i don't understand why it should not be so. and yea, i agree to you. missile users have in real combat less dps then on paper, because some of their damage is still in space once the ship pops. the faster the ship pops the more damage is still in space (% of total damage fired).
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.09 14:48:00 - [104] Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:01:00 - [105] How often are citadel torpedo's smartbombed to death? I haven't heard of this happening on any significant level before. --- Put in space whales!
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.09 22:51:00 - [106] Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:10:00 - [107] Originally by: Gamesguy Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. How is this justified in situations like POS warfare, where you spend quite some significant amount of time shooting the same object - and with the same resist profile? -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.10 01:00:00 - [108] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. if these numbers where true, the geddon would not have the highest damage on the kill mail. if you assume, that armor and shield had the same size on the target, you would end up with the geddon doing 16/30 of the damage and the tempest 14/30 of the damage. however, with that much difference in killing time for shield and armor, they did not have the same amount (only high resistence cannot explain this). either the armor had a bigger buffer or an active tank. but, with the damage dealt for same size being so close together, just a bit increase of the armor size would make the tempest do more total damage then the geddon.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.10 01:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. Pity your numbers are not true, jsut invented from your imagination. Several peopel already have made charst about this data (There was a particularly good one at scrapheap) That specific one i remember the following Take a megathron put 2 EANM 1 DC and 2 plates on it. that wil be the target. NOw take othe batleshisp to shoot it. Give them 5 slot tank. The rest they can focus on damage. If my memory works well they made the test on sisi. Of course if you take a battleship with 3 trimarks and slave set then amarr woudl have worse result. But that is the flavor of the damage type. Same way an amarr BS can shred a raven like butter. But a tempest will just cry if needs to kill a raven. FACT armageddon kills the target only second to a blastherthron. And finishes the job far faster than tempest. Em resists on shields beign zero and on hull beign equal for all types (but armageddon ahving far far higher base dps) more than compensate the armor resits. I have Amarr BS V and Minamtar BS V, and NEVER ever I would take a minmatar battleship before an amarr one if my focus was to deal as much damage as possible. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.10 06:25:00 - [110] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I have Amarr BS V and Minamtar BS V, and NEVER ever I would take a minmatar battleship before an amarr one if my focus was to deal as much damage as possible. So, as someone with Minmatar BS 4 and T2 large projectiles, but no amarr/laser skills, I have to ask: When do you use your minmatar BS's? Do I bite the bullet and train up Min BS 5 and hope there is a change in the future? Do I cross train for another race for BS and caps? Is all the effort training up a typhoon/Nag worth it (seems like no for the Nag)? And I guess the real heart of this thread: Are minmatar BS and caps (Naglfar in particular, Niddy doesn't seem so bad) so far behind the others thats its worth it to suck it up and train up something else?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Lisento Slaven How often are citadel torpedo's smartbombed to death? I haven't heard of this happening on any significant level before. Once in a blue moon. Boink!
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.12 06:32:00 - [112] Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 12/05/2008 06:35:27 Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis And I guess the real heart of this thread: Are minmatar BS and caps (Naglfar in particular, Niddy doesn't seem so bad) so far behind the others thats its worth it to suck it up and train up something else? My honest opinion is that if you are planning on using capitals in the near future, and you have no RP reason to do so - that you should steer clear of Minmatar batteships. Gallente battleship will serve you better in terms of getting your hands on various faction batteships, the Dominix is a great battleship and uses your drone skills well, the Moros is useful for its sentry drones and the Thanatos is the most versitile of the carriers with a decent personal tank. If battleships is only a stepping stone for dreads and carriers (that you are a capital alt or some such) then I would recommend Amarr for all the reasons previously posted. Minmatar ships past command ships (BB/Dread/Carrier/Mom/Titan) are sub-par. The nature of artillery, their lack of good onboard electronics, and their sub-standard tank all contribute to this general lack. In cruiser sized roaming gangs however, Minmatar are very good - versiility in BB and Capital ships is not desirable - a direct contradiction to the Minmatar mantra. ----
Liam Fremen Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:54:00 - [113] Btw, revelation are often on top of pos killmails for 2 reasons: 1) they do not reload, so they save up a lot of time over a large pos takedown 2) due to the fact they do not reload, even under heavy lag, if you activate ur guns once they keep firing forever, other dreads must deal with re-activating guns/launchers after the ammo clip is empty and auto-reloaded, when lag is few minutes for module activation it makes the difference. For the naglfar, just few things: 1) It looks awesome. 2) When it enter siege is an orgasm looking the guns sliding out and smoke come out :P 3) YOU WILL BE PRIMARY. Personal opinion as fc and after some intresting cap battles, even if you got a phoenix half shield and a naglfar comes in, is easier to switch, kill naglfar and back to phoenix due to how much difference there is on it... the primary list is always: 1) Naglfar 2) Moros 3) Revelation / Phoenix (fc choice, usually revelation come first) Remember always that Citadel torpedo have a BIG problem agains smartbombing carriers, a bunch of carriers with 2x large smartbomb each active will nearly totaly wipe out the full DPS of phoenixes and half of naglfar. _________________________________________________
Jethro Amar	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Well, the thing is that DPS of a ship is constant no matter the target's resists while killmails show dps AFTER resist are applied. If you shoot 10k emp damage on unprotected shield - you dealt 10k damage and killmail says 10k damage. If you shoot 10k exp damage on protected armor (say 80% exp res) - you dealt 10k damage, which was then reduced to 2k on killmail. You'd need to deal 50k damage to get the same amount on killmail as the emp guy :) an example - armor tanked ship target shield: 0 emp res, 60 exp res, 10k buffer target armor: 90 emp res, 80exp res, 10k buffer attacker 1 deals 200dps emp, attacker 2 deals 200dps exp (i know it's low) attacker 1 will deal 7200 shield damage and 3300 armor damage for 10500 total attacker 2 will deal 2900 shield damage and 6600 armor damage for 9500 total As you can see, there is a significant difference in killmail even when both ships dealt the same amount of 'raw' damage. Of course, this is the way it should be: after all, the first ship had 'better' damage type :)

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