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The Naglfar. Worth a try?

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Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:40:00 - [1] So I'm hoping to hop in a dread soon. The Dread of choice would be the minnie Naglfar. I'm 30 days away from flying one including all related skills (cap repper, guns etc) But after a quick comparison with the other races' dreads I'm shocked. It seems the Nagl is sub par on every account bar cargohold! Split weapon systems, in the best minnie Tradition. but seriously, 2/2? mids/lows. 6/6. Again, minnie style, but on a capital? Lowest capacitor. And to top it all off, a WAY lower sensor strength than any of the others. Other Minmatar ships have some, if not a lot (vaga anyone)profit of the higher speeds and lower inertia, especially combined with low range/high DPS weapons. but obviously that's wasted on a dread which would be nano'd for giggles only, and would spends 90% of the time in the field in siege mode, and therefore immobile. So what, if any, are the naglfars' strenghts? I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:42:00 - [2] Originally by: Auralis I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread. It shouldn't be that bad to get into a Phoenix should it? Besides, then you'd have Caldari BS 5 for the Raven... -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:45:00 - [3] Nanonaglfar ;) It also gets 4 guns rather than the others 3. Capless guns, and a 7.5% RoF bonus rather than 5%. In short tons of damage, but less extended DPS than revelation. All dreads are somewhat balanced atm. Postcount: 895600
ZW Dewitt	Posted - 2008.05.01 02:45:00 - [4] Capless weapons. Ability to switch damage types to a degree. And... ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:04:00 - [5] Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 03:07:06 Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 03:05:51 To fly a phoenix I'd have to learn caldari from frig 1 to BS 5. Nah, I'l pass. And I already have a main with caldari BSV. yet never really flies a raven anymore. Quote: ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL Awesome. 8) the 4h turret... nice. But yeah, capless weapons, that's an argument. Shared with the phoenix though. Which weapon is preferred by the way? Projectile or citadel? Assuming citadel here due to being able to switch dmg type? DPS and general usefulness wise, how would you rate the Naglfar with the other dreads? x/10
NoNah Tenth Legion Holdings Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:09:00 - [6] Edited by: NoNah on 01/05/2008 03:10:31 Hmm, fitting a remote rep on a dread would be nothing but.. stupid. Sorry. And seeing how in theory another weapon slot adds 33% damage - yes I'd say that's a pretty big deal to a ship which ONLY purpose is to deal massive damage. =) You're immune to ewar once siege hits, so that doesn't really matter. Slot layout is 6/5/5 btw, not 6/6/5. You already know my stance on dreads in comparisson to eachother, and I'd say torps > projectiles, but the difference is very minor and varies a bit with the rare non-pos activities you'll find yourself in. Postcount: 693639
Lego Maniac Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:16:00 - [7] I give it 11/10 for being vertical when the FC comments on your poor choice of dreadnought you can just be like "dude, look at it!" and your FC would say "yeah, you're right what was I thinking"
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:32:00 - [8] Hmm. Thanks all for your remarks. I was thinking the nagl was close to being useless on all fronts. While it may not be the best dread out there, or maybe even the worst, it's not as bad as I feared. A remark from a corpie "But atleast you get to be called primary" made me doubt my choice. I guess tanking ability suffers from having 1 less tanking slot. Any fitting threads out there? the ship setup index is empty of Nagl setups. :(
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:33:00 - [9] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/05/2008 03:34:22 Originally by: Auralis Hmm. Thanks all for your remarks. I was thinking the nagl was close to being useless on all fronts. While it may not be the best dread out there, or maybe even the worst, it's not as bad as I feared. A remark from a corpie "But atleast you get to be called primary" made me doubt my choice. I guess tanking ability suffers from having 1 less tanking slot. Any fitting threads out there? the ship setup index is empty of Nagl setups. :( I'm not sure how great the fit is, but this is probably something close to what I'd do: [Naglfar, Armor Tanked Nag] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Warden II x5 Ed: It should be noted that I don't fly the Nag (I flew it on Armageddon day and was underwhelmed). I have no intention of ever flying the Nag. -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:34:00 - [10] Naglfar Cons: 1. Worst tank 2. Requires 2 capital weapon skills 3. Low DPS unless tank is compromised further 4. Little use besides POS as compared with Moros, Phoenix Pros: 1. It's ******* vertical!
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 03:45:00 - [11] Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 03:46:53 I had the same fit as Liang, except for the 2nd BCU and an extra sensor booster instead of cap recharger. Seems there's little variaton possible. Also, playing with EFT+current skills it ought to be cap stable with everything active. Can anyone confirm?
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:10:00 - [12] Without any damage mods, at least its in the same ballpark as the other dreads. And partial damage type selection helps a little. Whether you use damage mods depends on what you are using it for. I know people that count on being called primary, and go with a double repper, and no dmg mods. The logic behind it is that while you cant sustain the cap usage on 2 reppers for more than ~4min, it may be long enough to drop out of siege and get carrier repping on you. Its a shame the Nag is so relatively weak, as the Niddy looks like a nice carrier.
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:19:00 - [13] Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 04:21:27 Hmm. there's an idea. Using 2 reppers and mids filled with cap rechargers + 3 CCC 1's I get 11 minutes of repping according to EFT. (current skills) Edit: Hmmm. acc to EFT 2 cap reppers& cap stable when not in siege. Baitdread?
Lego Maniac Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:22:00 - [14] why the locking scripted boosters? that POS isn't going anywhere jes' sayin', ya know
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:23:00 - [15] On the issue of sensor strength, you can't be jammed in siege mode (which is the only mode worth operating in). Regards, Kehmor Violence isn't the answer, it is the question. The answer is yes.
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Lego Maniac why the locking scripted boosters? that POS isn't going anywhere jes' sayin', ya know Fleetfights. :) But yeah, seeing as it's near pointless shooting non-caps I'd rather change it for another cap recharger. Can't think of anything better.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:40:00 - [17] Originally by: ZW Dewitt ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL no other reason needed
Yonos e X i l e	Posted - 2008.05.01 04:49:00 - [18] TBH, dreads make you a POS warfare slave who presses f1,f2,f3.... every couple of minutes cause of weapon reloading. I would say the Revelation is the best dread simply cause you can hit siege and start guns then go afk for 9.5 minutes. Only reason I fly naglfar is I had min bs 5 and..... IT'S FREAKING VERTICAL.
easei AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:27:00 - [19] Originally by: ZW Dewitt ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL
Splash Whale Ctrl-Q Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.01 05:55:00 - [20] Just an FYI, Citadel Torps suck especially on long range. If you're going to fit damage mods, fit them for the guns. ---- When in doubt, Ctrl-Q.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.01 06:16:00 - [21] Nagl isn't bad. The DPS is on par with other dreads (barring drones which most people don't use since while shooting a POS sentry drone spam just makes everything a mess) DPS goes something like: Nagl/Rev DPS is the best which are equal to Phoenix/Moros + a damage mod. Since the Nagls guns do not use cap, you will actually be better off than the Moros after a few minutes. So yeah, it is a fine dread, the pain of training of both guns and missiles mean that most Nagls won't be as good, but the potential is there.
Najenna Minmatar Caldari Deep Space Ventures Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.05.01 07:03:00 - [22] Originally by: ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL[/quote This
Euriti Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.05.01 09:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Yonos IT'S FREAKING VERTICAL.
Laiza Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.01 09:37:00 - [24] tbfh.. Originally by: Euriti Originally by: Yonos IT'S FREAKING VERTICAL.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:29:00 - [25] nag is a crappy dread, it have low dps on comparable setups and more or less equal to other dreads with standard ones big problem of this ship is that it have 1 less low+mid than other dreads in favor of an additional weapon but due to arty low dps the additional weapon you get is not enought to give it a clear dps advantage leaving it with 1 less tank slot than other dreads and also the split weapon system make it so that with the evental single bcu/gyro you are upgrading just 2 weapon dmg and not 3 as other dreads speaking about fittings... if you are not going to hit something "supersafe" imo you need 2 reps making it even harder to fit a gyro/bcu and a good tank. you get capless weapon but also less cap and phoe and moros have good capless dps speed... considering that a dread cant move with active siege and whitout active it have crap tank, crap dps (cept moros) and can be webbed it doesnt give a any normal combat advantage, only thing you can do with it is to fit a bumpingdread but personally i dont consider this as a "real dread config" and for sure the ship cant be considered balanced because it bumps better than other ones... Nag sums the worst that minnie can offer with split weapon system, crazy slot allocation, low defence and a speed bonus that is useless on this class of ships... but indeed it have a good thing to offer... its vertical! Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod Arcane Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 10:42:00 - [26] I'd get one simply becouse it's Fkin vertical to, it really is the coolest-looking dread out there :o
Khadur Minmatar Black Water.	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:20:00 - [27] I have the skills but no money
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.01 11:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not sure how great the fit is, but this is probably something close to what I'd do: [Naglfar, Armor Tanked Nag] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Warden II x5 Ed: It should be noted that I don't fly the Nag (I flew it on Armageddon day and was underwhelmed). I have no intention of ever flying the Nag. That setup is so 06, get with the times man! [Naglfar, POS] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
Wardeneo Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.01 13:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Auralis Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 03:42:20 So I'm hoping to hop in a dread soon. The Dread of choice would be the minnie Naglfar. I'm 30 days away from flying one including all related skills (cap repper, guns etc) But after a quick comparison with the other races' dreads I'm shocked. It seems the Nagl is sub par on every account bar cargohold! Split weapon systems, in the best minnie Tradition. but seriously, 2/2? mids/lows. 5/6. Again, minnie style, but on a capital? Lowest capacitor. And to top it all off, a WAY lower sensor strength than any of the others. Other Minmatar ships have some, if not a lot (vaga anyone)profit of the higher speeds and lower inertia, especially combined with low range/high DPS weapons. but obviously that's wasted on a dread which would be nano'd for giggles only, and would spends 90% of the time in the field in siege mode, and therefore immobile. So what, if any, are the naglfars' strenghts? I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread. i seen a nagifar undock, go 2 siege and kill over 10 bs ^^, was quite funny 2 see a scorp insta pop ^^ i noticed he had 1 x sensor booster, 1 x web 1 x scram adna target painter (or 2 - cant remember how many meds nag has) he had 2 xlarge ac's and 2 citedel torps, 1 x seige mod and a standard dual rep armor tank, and some cap rigs i believe.... but as for dreds, moros is best out of siege with out a doubt, over 1000 dps from drones alone ^^ in seige it still has the most raw dps but revelation is the best dred imo, good tank, guns dont need ammo, pulses have good range for short range weapons wtc wardeneo If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :)
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Gamesguy That setup is so 06, get with the times man! [Naglfar, POS] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Wow... I didn't put a DC on it. Damn, and that's like one of the cardinal rules too. So the Trimarks are for hoping you survive "primary" long enough to get the remote reps on? -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Liisa hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:55:00 - [31] The biggest advantage of the Naglfar is it's cargohold. It is the only dread that can carry 7 cycles of stront, 30k fuel and enough ammo with ease.
Bronson Hughes The KAOS Holdings Group	Posted - 2008.05.01 17:59:00 - [32] Originally by: ZW Dewitt ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL I forsee YouTube action involving this quote.... From what people have told me, the only time that a Naglfar suffers compared to other dreads is when you're fitting for max DPS due to it's split weapon system. For typical max buffer tank, no damage mods, hoping like hell to outlive siege mode and get remote reps setups, it does fine. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Unknown Comic	Posted - 2008.05.01 18:19:00 - [33] Noob post - my alt is Minmi and a couple of months from dreads, but I am seriously considering training Amarr to avoid the Naglfar. I don't get why this ship has an omni-tank slot layout, but the cpu does not allow a T2 (non-faction) shield tank. Would it be so wrong to give it an extra hundred cpu? I can't see that creating any possibly unbalanced setups. You can get a bit more gank with the shield setup and a bit more tank with armour. The tank is inferior to the other dreads either way and the damage is not crazy. So why should we have to invest extra isk in an oft-primaried ship to use shields? Maybe I've missed a viable setup, but that's the big problem I see with this ship's concept. I also know a lot of people think shields suck in fleet/pos warfare.
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.01 20:49:00 - [34] Edited by: royal killer on 01/05/2008 20:49:08 [Naglfar, the lolmobile] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Siege Module I 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Warden II x5 edit: A good solid 1500 dps tank according to EFT --------------------
Alyth Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:31:00 - [35] Originally by: Liang Nuren Wow... I didn't put a DC on it. Damn, and that's like one of the cardinal rules too. So the Trimarks are for hoping you survive "primary" long enough to get the remote reps on? -Liang That would be the length of time it takes you to come out of siege so you can actually be remote repped then? A primaried, sieged dread is a dead dread.
Unknown Comic	Posted - 2008.05.01 21:42:00 - [36] Originally by: royal killer Edited by: royal killer on 01/05/2008 20:49:08 [Naglfar, the lolmobile] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Siege Module I 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Warden II x5 edit: A good solid 1500 dps tank according to EFT lol. Very nice as long as it's only 1 jump to target or you'll need someone to remote cap boost. Thanks for posting that - I dislike the Naglfar less intensely now. I did some playing in EFT and found there's no way to sustain a 5 slot active shield tank on the Nag while in siege mode for more than a few minutes. Not long enough to get yourself out of siege anyway. Active shields is not really an option so extra cpu would be useless.
gordon cain Minmatar x13	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:03:00 - [37] Do you naglfar pilots often have problems with desynch. I seem to dsynch more often than say a Moros. Your experience? gordon cain Never argue with idiots, they will just drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:14:00 - [38] Originally by: royal killer Edited by: royal killer on 01/05/2008 20:49:08 [Naglfar, the lolmobile] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Siege Module I 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL 6x2500mm Repeating Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Warden II x5 edit: A good solid 1500 dps tank according to EFT ehm.... is a dread not a bs... 1500 dps tank is quite crap, expecially considering that you are using every slot to achieve that... a standard active tank setup should be able to sustain tank around 4k and with space for shield booster, trimark and a bcu... a dual armor tank can tank over 10k dps for few minutes... Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Bertn Erney The Fudge Packers Union	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:17:00 - [39] Edited by: Bertn Erney on 01/05/2008 22:18:55 ingame dps doesnt equal on paper dps, for proof check out any of the hundreds of tower killmails and capital killmails that go up weekly on killboards. if you then check out the losses of capitals you may notice another statistical anomaly; naglafars seem to die more then other dreads. Reason being their tank is also tied for worst at best. To train a nag from scratch based on the present condition of caps means you are either gambling on a massive change to the ship (entirely possible in the year and a half you have to train for this) or you are misguided on the current state of caps. put down the eft and examine the evidence that is available directly from the game. edit: the person above me obviously missed the funny.....
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.01 22:42:00 - [40] As far as I can tell, there's isn't actually all that much in the way of difference between the dreads. They each tank 'really hard', do massive damage to POSes, and are fairly crap out of siege. I wouldn't say it makes that much of a difference, if you already have BS 5. The only dread that can do particularly funky things that the others can't, is the Moros with it's rather horrendous drone damage bonus. Naglafar is a split weapon system, and gains an extra weapon as a result. The weapon system is the best for changing damage types (the Phoenix loses a damage bonus on non-kinetic damage, where the Naglfar only loses a relatively small percentage switching projectile ammo types). Fair trade for the additional effort of training both. Or would be, if it didn't lose a lowslot to it - All the dreads get a total of 16 slots, which means the other three get 'a slot more' that can be used for tanking. (Or a damage mod, or whatever) I'm not entirely sure how much this matters though, as a straight fight between dreads isn't all that common - and they all fill the basic role of 'shooting down POSes'. It does gain the fastest locking time, for what that's worth :). -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:21:00 - [41] The nag, and for that matter all minmatar ships above CSs are really sub-par as a whole. Artillery is simply a terrible wepon system which is a good balance to the fantastic nature of ACs. I would recommend the Revelation as the 'best' dread for POS seiging (which is what dreads are for imo) because it can sustain a duel rep armor tank of considerable defense and it does not need to reload - you simply go into siege, turn on the guns, and take a cigarate break for 9 mins, come back and either re-siege or warp off. . .or find yourself dead. The idea of reloading two different ammos during a proper POS siege (or any ammo of that matter) just sounds like a frustrating thing. . . ----
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:30:00 - [42] it's vertical, get the vertical.
m3rb3aSt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:44:00 - [43] Really just give the naglfar one more low slot and it would be perfect. Its not bad but the cons really offset the pros of using it. Really both the nidhogger and naglfar both need a slight minuscule boost.
Auralis Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:52:00 - [44] Stop saying it's vertical. IT'S NOT! It's the pilot/pod that is placed horizontally, therefore changing the pilots' view and FLYING at a 90 degree angle of what they should fly.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.02 00:53:00 - [45] Originally by: m3rb3aSt Really just give the naglfar one more low slot and it would be perfect. Its not bad but the cons really offset the pros of using it. Really both the nidhogger and naglfar both need a slight minuscule boost. One more slot is not a 'slight miniscule boost' the best nag setups I've seen are shield tanked. . . which is a good way to go if you don't have slaves. ----
Commander Thrawn the united	Posted - 2008.05.02 01:08:00 - [46] this http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=734632
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2008.05.02 06:34:00 - [47] Question: Why use long range arty's when most minmatar ships use autos? And why fit such a HUGE tank? Isn't that against everything minmatar stand for? Why not shield/cap mods in the mids and all gank in the lows???? To me that would make it nasty, but atm I'm stuck at work......
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 06:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Megan Maynard Edited by: Megan Maynard on 02/05/2008 06:35:58 Question: Why not shield/cap mods in the mids and all gank in the lows???? To me that would make it nasty, but atm I'm stuck at work...... Maybe because you're in siege mode and can't move. Just saying. -Liang
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.02 07:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Megan Maynard Edited by: Megan Maynard on 02/05/2008 06:35:58 Question: Why not shield/cap mods in the mids and all gank in the lows???? To me that would make it nasty, but atm I'm stuck at work...... because it lacks the cpu, you cant even fit a shield tank whitout going out of cpu so no space at all for dmg mods i agree that nag need 1 more mid or low... split weapon, low dps of arty, lowest base hps should be alredy enought to balance that
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 08:13:00 - [50] I drew these numbers from the last 20 Insurgency POS kills. Draw from them what you will. Originally by: Stats Ship \| Times Appeared \| Average Damage \| Total Damage Revelation \| 79 \| 1240261 \| 97980641 Moros \| 161 \| 1076045 \| 173243262 Wyvern \| 1 \| 922517 \| 922517 Phoenix \| 66 \| 910845 \| 60115757 Naglfar \| 81 \| 899814 \| 72884932 Raven \| 7 \| 830000 \| 5810003 Hel \| 3 \| 781987 \| 2345960 Maelstrom \| 8 \| 653007 \| 5224055 Capsule \| 1 \| 604239 \| 604239 Nighthawk \| 1 \| 523313 \| 523313 Aeon \| 6 \| 391041 \| 2346247 Drake \| 1 \| 379394 \| 379394 Nyx \| 10 \| 366837 \| 3668372 Apocalypse \| 30 \| 338606 \| 10158180 Dominix \| 2 \| 334929 \| 669857 Tempest \| 51 \| 288063 \| 14691223 Nidhoggur \| 4 \| 283554 \| 1134216 Megathron \| 57 \| 282753 \| 16116938 Archon \| 22 \| 259528 \| 5709617 Chimera \| 29 \| 258963 \| 7509935 Ishtar \| 7 \| 251567 \| 1760969 Eagle \| 1 \| 243511 \| 243511 Thanatos \| 45 \| 226761 \| 10204257 Onyx \| 1 \| 217170 \| 217170 Armageddon \| 6 \| 213194 \| 1279165 Unknown \| 31 \| 199686 \| 6190253 Abaddon \| 4 \| 199219 \| 796874 Hurricane \| 2 \| 194919 \| 389838 Rokh \| 21 \| 168787 \| 3544527 Absolution \| 1 \| 152978 \| 152978 Muninn \| 1 \| 124790 \| 124790 Myrmidon \| 1 \| 95938 \| 95938 Ferox \| 1 \| 48136 \| 48136 Manticore \| 1 \| 36361 \| 36361 Scorpion \| 9 \| 34249 \| 308240 Caracal \| 1 \| 32912 \| 32912 Broadsword \| 1 \| 6866 \| 6866 When limited to just the dreads: Quote: Ship \| Times Appeared \| Average Damage \| Total Damage Revelation \| 79 \| 1240261 \| 97980641 Moros \| 161 \| 1076045 \| 173243262 Phoenix \| 66 \| 910845 \| 60115757 Naglfar \| 81 \| 899814 \| 72884932 We can see that the Moros is far and away the most popular dread, but the Naglfar is next. We can further see that the Naglfar does (on average) about 72% of the damage a Rev does. ;-) -Liang
Liam Fremen Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2008.05.02 08:22:00 - [51] If **** hit the fan the primary list of any serious fc is: Naglfar -> Moros -> Revelation/Phoenix You can even switch from a Phoenix at half shield, take down a Naglfar and come back and you will "earn" from the switch. When you are in Minnie capitals you are primary, period.
Umar Khattab Amarr Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:47:00 - [52] Originally by: ZW Dewitt Capless weapons. Ability to switch damage types to a degree. And... ITS FREAKIN' VERTICAL hahaha
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 09:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Auralis Edited by: Auralis on 01/05/2008 03:42:20 So I'm hoping to hop in a dread soon. The Dread of choice would be the minnie Naglfar. I'm 30 days away from flying one including all related skills (cap repper, guns etc) But after a quick comparison with the other races' dreads I'm shocked. It seems the Nagl is sub par on every account bar cargohold! Split weapon systems, in the best minnie Tradition. but seriously, 2/2? mids/lows. 5/6. Again, minnie style, but on a capital? Lowest capacitor. And to top it all off, a WAY lower sensor strength than any of the others. Other Minmatar ships have some, if not a lot (vaga anyone)profit of the higher speeds and lower inertia, especially combined with low range/high DPS weapons. but obviously that's wasted on a dread which would be nano'd for giggles only, and would spends 90% of the time in the field in siege mode, and therefore immobile. So what, if any, are the naglfars' strenghts? I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread. The only reason you'd use a Naglfar would be if you have most of the skills already. Like all Minmatar cap ships, it sucks, in this case: - it has the worst tank of all Dreads - its damage is sub-par also since nowdays you usually fit 2 damage mods on your dread and the Naglfar doesn't benefit as much as other dreads from it - since it has 2 torp launchers, its damage is crap when you shoot supercaps (unless they're logged ...) - citadel torp explosion velocity needs to be fixed in siege But yeah, it looks nice and uses no cap to shoot (but who cares, if you need cap for your repper, you can stop shooting).
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:05:00 - [54] Originally by: Liisa The biggest advantage of the Naglfar is it's cargohold. It is the only dread that can carry 7 cycles of stront, 30k fuel and enough ammo with ease. LOL, only the Revelation needs to carry almost no ammo ... Also, 7 cycles (L4) + 30k fuel = 6300 + 4500 = 10800m¦, the Naglfar has 10250m¦ cargo hold.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:13:00 - [55] Originally by: Unknown Comic I did some playing in EFT and found there's no way to sustain a 5 slot active shield tank on the Nag while in siege mode for more than a few minutes. Not long enough to get yourself out of siege anyway. Active shields is not really an option so extra cpu would be useless. Sure there is a way. Extra CPU would be extremely useful to make it cheaper (these fittings cost around 700m): Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Capital Shield Booster I Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Domination Invulnerability Field Republic Fleet Shield Boost Amplifier Siege Module I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I = almost 11k dps perma-tank ... no CPU for a damage control, TS CPRs or T2 hardeners.
Dah' Khanid Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.02 10:35:00 - [56] Edited by: Dah'' Khanid on 02/05/2008 10:39:40 Shield tanked Naglefar: Lows: 1xBest Named DCU 5xTrue Sansha Power Relay Mids: 2xDomination Shield boost amp 2xDread Guristas Invul field 1xCapital Shield Booster Higs: 2xCitadel Torp 2xArty 1xSiege Module Rigs: 3xCCC Tank: 12200 DPS near sustainable shield tank. The faction mods on it are very affordable and needed for the CPU (or at least they should be for a capital pilot). CPU is very tight as you can see, so gun and missile implants are needed as well as a cheap cpu implant for the ship. On a serious note: I would never use this thing like this in combat due to no damage mods and no sensor booster, but those 2-3 mods can easily be switched although it makes the tank a lot less sustainable - but still very good. Edit: Just saw the above poster and our setups are almost similar Use faction Cap relays though - 5 of those are 100mil tops.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:02:00 - [57] no dmg control, no sensor booster and the price.... expecially considering that you are going to be primary a phoenix can put up similar tankage with just t2 mod and a bcu too... so a full pirate nag is more or less equal to a t2 phoenix, doesnt seem that great to me
Lenaria Caldari Ursa Ritor	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:46:00 - [58] Revelation is by far the best dread. Highest damage of all dreads, ability to use mid-ranged, high damage weapon well, best tank, wonderful abilty to shot in lag without reload. Naglfar is worst of all dreads. Worst tank, average damage (without damage mods, with damage mods naglfar again have worst damage..), ****poor dps in lag due to reload... The only bright side is large cargo bay... Generally, i would like to see DPS increase on Naglfar. Or another tanking slot - equal to other dreads. Right now 4 weapon slots on Naglfar do exactly same damage as 3 weapon slots on other dreads.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 11:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Lenaria Revelation is by far the best dread. Highest damage of all dreads, ability to use mid-ranged, high damage weapon well, best tank, wonderful abilty to shot in lag without reload. Naglfar is worst of all dreads. Worst tank, average damage (without damage mods, with damage mods naglfar again have worst damage..), ***poor dps in lag due to reload... The only bright side is large cargo bay... Generally, i would like to see DPS increase on Naglfar. Or another tanking slot - equal to other dreads. Right now 4 weapon slots on Naglfar do exactly same damage as 3 weapon slots on other dreads. Another minor complaint: the Moros has a higher alpha strike with its frickin' Railguns* than the Naglfar... The XL Arty needs half RoF and double damage mod ...
Liisa hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.02 12:07:00 - [60] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Liisa The biggest advantage of the Naglfar is it's cargohold. It is the only dread that can carry 7 cycles of stront, 30k fuel and enough ammo with ease. LOL, only the Revelation needs to carry almost no ammo ... Also, 7 cycles (L4) + 30k fuel = 6300 + 4500 = 10800m¦, the Naglfar has 10250m¦ cargo hold. Umm... if you do not know what you are talking about, I think it is better not to post anything.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Liam Fremen If **** hit the fan the primary list of any serious fc is: Naglfar -> Moros -> Revelation/Phoenix You can even switch from a Phoenix at half shield, take down a Naglfar and come back and you will "earn" from the switch. When you are in Minnie capitals you are primary, period. I think this is what makes the Nag actually deal much less damage than the other dreads - people can't tank them properly and fit damage mods. -Liang
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:32:00 - [62] Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Liisa The biggest advantage of the Naglfar is it's cargohold. It is the only dread that can carry 7 cycles of stront, 30k fuel and enough ammo with ease. LOL, only the Revelation needs to carry almost no ammo ... Also, 7 cycles (L4) + 30k fuel = 6300 + 4500 = 10800m¦, the Naglfar has 10250m¦ cargo hold. Umm... if you do not know what you are talking about, I think it is better not to post anything. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I only multiplied the stront amount with 3 for some strange reason. ;-) In any case, you're wrong, the Rev holds enough fuel + stront + ammo just as easily.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.02 16:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Liisa Umm... if you do not know what you are talking about, I think it is better not to post anything. Oh hi. You must be new here.
Lrd Byron	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:09:00 - [64] Just screwing around in EFT with max skills and fitted for max DPS, the Naglfar was around 20% less DPS than the Moros. That seems like a lot.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:12:00 - [65] Originally by: Lrd Byron Just screwing around in EFT with max skills and fitted for max DPS, the Naglfar was around 20% less DPS than the Moros. That seems like a lot. I think it's rather telling that (empirically), on a ship for ship basis, the Naglfar actually does about 17% less DPS than a Moros - and simultaneously has a significantly worse tank. -Liang
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lrd Byron Just screwing around in EFT with max skills and fitted for max DPS, the Naglfar was around 20% less DPS than the Moros. That seems like a lot. I think it's rather telling that (empirically), on a ship for ship basis, the Naglfar actually does about 17% less DPS than a Moros - and simultaneously has a significantly worse tank. -Liang Yeah, but the Moros does 1000dps or so from drones alone, which is just plain ludicrous.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.02 18:52:00 - [67] Originally by: James Lyrus Yeah, but the Moros does 1000dps or so from drones alone, which is just plain ludicrous. The Moros is (empirically) the second most damaging dread. The Rev actually outdamages it. -Liang
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:10:00 - [68] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: James Lyrus Yeah, but the Moros does 1000dps or so from drones alone, which is just plain ludicrous. The Moros is (empirically) the second most damaging dread. The Rev actually outdamages it. -Liang Except when out of siege mode :)
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:20:00 - [69] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: James Lyrus Yeah, but the Moros does 1000dps or so from drones alone, which is just plain ludicrous. The Moros is (empirically) the second most damaging dread. The Rev actually outdamages it. -Liang Except when out of siege mode :) Does that matter? This is a serious question BTW. When are you typically out of siege mode in a real fleet op?
Bronson Hughes The KAOS Holdings Group	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:24:00 - [70] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Does that matter? This is a serious question BTW. When are you typically out of siege mode in a real fleet op? Never really, but it does allow more station-hugging and/or gate camping hilarity.
Khadur Minmatar Black Water.	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:53:00 - [71] Revelation it is then, but i want a naglfar just for the pimp looking I am only missing 1 bill
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.05.02 19:57:00 - [72] Originally by: Yonos IT'S FREAKING VERTICAL.
Oreonea	Posted - 2008.05.06 23:14:00 - [73] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Liisa The biggest advantage of the Naglfar is it's cargohold. It is the only dread that can carry 7 cycles of stront, 30k fuel and enough ammo with ease. LOL, only the Revelation needs to carry almost no ammo ... Also, 7 cycles (L4) + 30k fuel = 6300 + 4500 = 10800m¦, the Naglfar has 10250m¦ cargo hold. Umm... if you do not know what you are talking about, I think it is better not to post anything. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I only multiplied the stront amount with 3 for some strange reason. ;-) In any case, you're wrong, the Rev holds enough fuel + stront + ammo just as easily. You guys are just making a fool of yourselves, anyone who knows what they are talking about know that dread pilots, stick 2 GSCs into their cargohold, each GSC has 3900 m3 and takes up 3000 m3, you need some space to move stuff around. But re-do your calcs with this in mind, if u do plan to fly a dread, don't forget this.
Rib0 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.06 23:50:00 - [74] Edited by: Rib0 on 06/05/2008 23:57:58 Edited by: Rib0 on 06/05/2008 23:52:57 first things first, ive never flown a dread, so this is entirely EFT work (and 2 minutes work at that). i thought id give a shield tanked nag a go, this is the result 2x citadel torp, 2x xl auto, 1xsiege mod 1x capital booster, 2x invuln, 2x shield boost amps 5x cap relays 1x co-proc 2x cccI 1x cccII 5x ogreII stats: dps: 3480 (i took a quick look at what a rev puts out, it doesnt seem hugely more than this figure) tank: 10.3k for 9 minutes or 9.2k perma .... dreads really have any more important stats :P to be honest those numbers dont look too shabby to me, not that much worse then the other dreads surely? edit: eep looks like ive missed the boat on the shield tank setups - sorry edit 2: nag with no damage mods does more dps than a phoenix with 1 damage mod - an interesting factoid
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.07 00:12:00 - [75] Originally by: Rib0 Edited by: Rib0 on 06/05/2008 23:52:57 2x citadel torp, 2x xl auto, 1xsiege mod XL AC's wont do so well at POS sieging since you'll be at least as far away as the force field. You will do more DPS with artillery at those ranges, and you wont chew through ammo.
ViperVenom Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.05.07 01:03:00 - [76] Well the Nag has the lowest Tank... BUt If u get primaryed your life is comming to a end unless you in a Ammar Cap.. I got for Dmg over Tank.. Hi: 2x6x2500mm repeating artillery I(RF EMP) 2X Cit torps(Your choice) Med: 1xCap SB 1xDG SBA 2xDG Invul 1x1DG EM Hardner Lows: 2xGyroII 3xBcuII 1xDCUII //Or swap a BCUII for a PDUII for a little more shield,cap Rigs: 3xCCC Drones 5xWardens I know shield tanking Nag is not good but u have Ubber dmg out put and the price tags aint too steep.
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.07 03:29:00 - [77] The only reason people train Minmatar ships past CSs is for the looks or because they are RPers like myself. If you sit down and get right down to it - Amarr - Gallente - Caldari (only because they ccan actually tank a little if you invest isk) - Minmatar. . .its just simple numbers. But ya, the 'correct; dread is the Rev - anyone in anything else is just lazy to train all the gun skills and such. . .But the Moros does have its uses too - those drones can make a boring siege exciting by using your drones to kill enemy support. . . ----
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.07 05:45:00 - [78] Edited by: Gamesguy on 07/05/2008 05:45:28 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: James Lyrus Yeah, but the Moros does 1000dps or so from drones alone, which is just plain ludicrous. The Moros is (empirically) the second most damaging dread. The Rev actually outdamages it. -Liang Not really true. Rail moros with t2 sentries will outdps the rev(with beams). Its just that most people dont have sentries deployed in those fights, or dont have t2 ones. 5 t2 curators on a moros will do amazing damage with decent tracking. Recent EM base resist decrease also made the traditionally tri-hardened capitals have their lowest resist as EM. This is true on basically any caps where you fit 3 hardeners.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.07 05:53:00 - [79] Originally by: Gamesguy Not really true. Rail moros with t2 sentries will outdps the rev(with beams). Its just that most people dont have sentries deployed in those fights, or dont have t2 ones. 5 t2 curators on a moros will do amazing damage with decent tracking. Recent EM base resist decrease also made the traditionally tri-hardened capitals have their lowest resist as EM. This is true on basically any caps where you fit 3 hardeners. That's a really great insight, Gamesguy. Thanks! It doesn't change the empirical study, but it does provide a bit of a counter-balance. :) It doesn't help the Naglfar though. :( -Liang
Lord Widman Minmatar THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.07 06:19:00 - [80] Would changing the weapon slot layout fix the Nag's problems? For example give it 3 turret hardpoints and two torp hardpoints or do away with the torps alltogether and give it 4 turret hardpoints and change the torp bonus to a tanking bonus.
ViperVenom Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.05.07 06:24:00 - [81] Originally by: Lord Widman Would changing the weapon slot layout fix the Nag's problems? For example give it 3 turret hardpoints and two torp hardpoints or do away with the torps alltogether and give it 4 turret hardpoints and change the torp bonus to a tanking bonus. I like that Fact that u can Choose your tank Shield(Way more DPS) Armor(Less Dps/Sub-par tank) The Nag u can fit 4 Dmg Mods. Dont have EFT running but i know Due to useing it in Combat that i works. I also Know if your Primary u will Melt unless helped. Im sure ill get flamed a bit.. Boo CCP!!!!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:30:00 - [82] Just giving it a cpu boost so it can shiedl tank with no faction stuff (hell you guys suggesting 2 DG invuls ona d read that is 99% chance to be primary are nuts) woudl be a great help, specially if paired with a bit more cap to use the shield tank :P Anyway the only way to fix it woudl be to drop the cit launchers. Get 3 PRojetile turrets. Change the Citatel bonus into shiedl boost ammount ( change from super typhoon to super maesltrom) and make it a 4/6/6 layout :) ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Mohia Matara The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2008.05.07 10:48:00 - [83] Man's got a point... It is verticle! ___________________ I'm annoying
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.07 12:09:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Gamesguy Not really true. Rail moros with t2 sentries will outdps the rev(with beams). Its just that most people dont have sentries deployed in those fights, or dont have t2 ones. 5 t2 curators on a moros will do amazing damage with decent tracking. Recent EM base resist decrease also made the traditionally tri-hardened capitals have their lowest resist as EM. This is true on basically any caps where you fit 3 hardeners. That's a really great insight, Gamesguy. Thanks! It doesn't change the empirical study, but it does provide a bit of a counter-balance. :) It doesn't help the Naglfar though. :( -Liang More empirical stuff: - most POSes are Minmatar and usually not hardened to have even resists, so the Phoenix is rather good for shooting POSes while Revs kinda suck (for damage anyway, ammo usage is a plus!) - basically Moros is second best at everything, so best overall, Naglfar is not good at anything in particular, so worst overall... EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.07 18:08:00 - [85] Revelation and Moros are amazing, Phoenix is pretty crap because citadel torps are pretty crap, but at least it can kinda tank well if you invest enough ISK. Nalfgar gets the two worst capital weapon systems and can't tank well. But hey, it looks really cool :)
Gypsio III Bambooule	Posted - 2008.05.07 18:37:00 - [86] Something I've always wondered about in capital fights... Carriers often have smarties running. Especially if they're primary. What is the effect of those smarties against volleys of Citadel torps? They're slow enough to be likely to be regularly hit by the smartie cycles, but with 650 HP on a Cit torp it will still survive a couple of hits. How does it work out in game?
goober nuts	Posted - 2008.05.07 20:27:00 - [87] if ya really wanna **** off a phoenix have your tacklers fit rocket launchers with defender missiles
Arakidias Murky Inc. Power Of 3	Posted - 2008.05.07 21:10:00 - [88] Originally by: goober nuts if ya really wanna **** off a phoenix have your tacklers fit rocket launchers with defender missiles Since when do phoenix pilots shoot citadels at their tacklers?
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 01:03:00 - [89] Originally by: goober nuts if ya really wanna **** off a phoenix have your tacklers fit rocket launchers with defender missiles 1. Defender missiles do nothing to citadel torps. 2. The phoenix is shooting your tacklers why?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 01:13:00 - [90] Originally by: Gamesguy Killmails list damage as the absolute damage done, rather than effective damage done. By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Relnala Event.Horizon	Posted - 2008.05.08 01:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Auralis I really don't want to add 3 months worth of training for another races' dread. It shouldn't be that bad to get into a Phoenix should it? Besides, then you'd have Caldari BS 5 for the Raven... -Liang Don't use any dreads that use citadels. Optimally, The revelations is the easiest dread to use. Cit torps are easily smartbombed to death.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 03:44:00 - [92] Originally by: Relnala Don't use any dreads that use citadels. Optimally, The revelations is the easiest dread to use. Cit torps are easily smartbombed to death. Yeah, I gathered that from the rest of this thread. I'm kinda sad, because I'm most of the way to a Phoenix already, and would be essentially starting over to be in a Rev. -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 08:12:00 - [93] Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont. so you are saying, theoric damage on paper is more important than actual damage dealt in a real combat situation?
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:28:00 - [95] Originally by: Layla Ashley Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: By absolute damage done, you're essentially referring to EFT damage? I've been doing a fair bit of "alpha striking" people, and I haven't noticed that - my damage on my kills appears to be my "actual" damage that I did. Ex: hits for 50 damage! wrecks for 487 damage! Shows on the mail as 537 - which would be the actual amount of hitpoints of damage that I did (after resists). Are you saying that POS's are different than that (and I'll check my game logs to make sure when I get home). -Liang Absolute damage done is the number that shows on your damage logs. This is how killmails rank who did the most damage etc. This tends to favor amarr ships because amarr ships melt the unresisted shields very quickly, which makes it look like they do more damage when they really dont. so you are saying, theoric damage on paper is more important than actual damage dealt in a real combat situation? Get a clue please. Example, abaddon and tempest vs a mega, domi has say 80/60/70/70 resists, fairly standard. It takes the abaddon and tempest 5 seconds to blow through shields, and a full minute to go through armor, with the tempest outdamaging the abaddon on armor by a significant percentage. Guess whos higher on the km? The abaddon, because it melted the unresisted shields, even though the shields arent even a significant portion of the mega's hp buffer. Get a clue mkay?
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:48:00 - [96] Originally by: Gamesguy Get a clue please. what am i supposed to do? i didn't understand your pots (you sad: the amarr ships do the most damage in the log evenso they don't do the most damage) which makes no sense to me. so i was asking you if i did understood you correctly or not. so you are saying if i don't understand something i should not ask about it but ask about it? kinda confused now. or was it to hard to see that my post was a question? anyway, you last post explained it in an understandable way. you weren't talking about damage dealt but about average dps
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.08 09:57:00 - [97] This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:11:00 - [98] Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. how do we know this? by paper calculation? if a ship has a strong active tank, the shield will factor in only very low in the total damage. on the other hand, if they don't have, the shield act as stong buffer, and therefor it's important to kill them and you can't neglect them. other ships would have needed longer to kill the shilds and therefor their speed advantage on the armor would be lost
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.08 10:29:00 - [99] Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. Not true, I get usually on top of killmail when i am in my geddon, even if i start to fire only after shiedls are almost gone (the bane of not having space for sensor boosters :P). THe ragen is indeed a big advantage. But Amarr DO have far higher DPS at reasonable range than other ships. Plain and simple. GAllente takes several seconds to get into blaster range. Minmatar AC have reduced dps due to AC being always on falloff. A target at 15 km is: (typical range after jump in) .at 80% damage range for a tempest with barrage. .out of close range for mega but in range for long range ammo .still in range for max damage close range ammo for an armageddon. That combined with fact taht PL do have a very high base dps( compared with lets say a standard fitted tempest) is what makes amarr be on top of sub capital KM. On Capitals km the reason is very simple, dont loose time reloading, specially if you in an APoc tah can fire for hours non stop. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.08 16:32:00 - [100] Thanks guys - that's a great discussion of why the damage discrepancy might be there. I think that Kagura has the right of it, personally. It seems to line out with my experience. It is interesting to realize that vaporizing the shield hp adds so much "damage done" - but I think it's important not to discount it. -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.09 02:44:00 - [101] Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 09/05/2008 02:44:43 Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not sure how great the fit is, but this is probably something close to what I'd do: [Naglfar, Armor Tanked Nag] Capital Armor Repairer I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Speed Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Quad 3500mm Siege Artillery I, EMP XL Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Thor Torpedo I Siege Module I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Warden II x5 Ed: It should be noted that I don't fly the Nag (I flew it on Armageddon day and was underwhelmed). I have no intention of ever flying the Nag. What happened to the DCII ? (damage control II) You better skip an EANMII for a DCII. It's HUGE difference. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.09 04:11:00 - [102] Originally by: Layla Ashley Originally by: Dristra This can be boiled down to someone claiming amarr to be top on killmails, thus implying that amarr have high dps and generally pwn face, as we all know this is not true, but amarr ships do get high on km's as they have great range and melt shields. how do we know this? by paper calculation? if a ship has a strong active tank, the shield will factor in only very low in the total damage. on the other hand, if they don't have, the shield act as stong buffer, and therefor it's important to kill them and you can't neglect them. other ships would have needed longer to kill the shilds and therefor their speed advantage on the armor would be lost Argh, to make it simpler for you. Domi with active armor tank, more or less similar amounts of shield and armor. An abaddon fires on the domi for 2 volleys and melts all the shields, then say a phoenix hits the domi and strips all its armor. Abaddon fires again, takes out the structure before a 2nd volley from the phoenix hits. Guess whos higher on the km? The abaddon. Sieged dreads are all about hp buffer, its own repair doesn't contribute to very much. Ergo, amarr does a lot of damage against the unresisted shields, and tend to show up higher on the kms.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.09 14:28:00 - [103] sorry, that wasn't my point. i understand very well why amarr is top of km most the time. i don't understand why it should not be so. and yea, i agree to you. missile users have in real combat less dps then on paper, because some of their damage is still in space once the ship pops. the faster the ship pops the more damage is still in space (% of total damage fired).
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.09 14:48:00 - [104] Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.05.09 15:01:00 - [105] How often are citadel torpedo's smartbombed to death? I haven't heard of this happening on any significant level before. --- Put in space whales!
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.09 22:51:00 - [106] Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.10 00:10:00 - [107] Originally by: Gamesguy Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. How is this justified in situations like POS warfare, where you spend quite some significant amount of time shooting the same object - and with the same resist profile? -Liang -- Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2008.05.10 01:00:00 - [108] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. if these numbers where true, the geddon would not have the highest damage on the kill mail. if you assume, that armor and shield had the same size on the target, you would end up with the geddon doing 16/30 of the damage and the tempest 14/30 of the damage. however, with that much difference in killing time for shield and armor, they did not have the same amount (only high resistence cannot explain this). either the armor had a bigger buffer or an active tank. but, with the damage dealt for same size being so close together, just a bit increase of the armor size would make the tempest do more total damage then the geddon.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.05.10 01:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Difference is not that extreme. More like 5 seconds vs 10 seconds. The reason its a red herring is because it would take the same geddon 90 seconds to go through the armor where as it takes the tempest 60 seconds to do the same. That 5 seconds on the shields makes the geddon seem to do more damage, but in reality the tempest did most of the damage. Pity your numbers are not true, jsut invented from your imagination. Several peopel already have made charst about this data (There was a particularly good one at scrapheap) That specific one i remember the following Take a megathron put 2 EANM 1 DC and 2 plates on it. that wil be the target. NOw take othe batleshisp to shoot it. Give them 5 slot tank. The rest they can focus on damage. If my memory works well they made the test on sisi. Of course if you take a battleship with 3 trimarks and slave set then amarr woudl have worse result. But that is the flavor of the damage type. Same way an amarr BS can shred a raven like butter. But a tempest will just cry if needs to kill a raven. FACT armageddon kills the target only second to a blastherthron. And finishes the job far faster than tempest. Em resists on shields beign zero and on hull beign equal for all types (but armageddon ahving far far higher base dps) more than compensate the armor resits. I have Amarr BS V and Minamtar BS V, and NEVER ever I would take a minmatar battleship before an amarr one if my focus was to deal as much damage as possible. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.10 06:25:00 - [110] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I have Amarr BS V and Minamtar BS V, and NEVER ever I would take a minmatar battleship before an amarr one if my focus was to deal as much damage as possible. So, as someone with Minmatar BS 4 and T2 large projectiles, but no amarr/laser skills, I have to ask: When do you use your minmatar BS's? Do I bite the bullet and train up Min BS 5 and hope there is a change in the future? Do I cross train for another race for BS and caps? Is all the effort training up a typhoon/Nag worth it (seems like no for the Nag)? And I guess the real heart of this thread: Are minmatar BS and caps (Naglfar in particular, Niddy doesn't seem so bad) so far behind the others thats its worth it to suck it up and train up something else?
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.10 10:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Lisento Slaven How often are citadel torpedo's smartbombed to death? I haven't heard of this happening on any significant level before. Once in a blue moon. Boink!
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.12 06:32:00 - [112] Edited by: Ruah Piskonit on 12/05/2008 06:35:27 Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis And I guess the real heart of this thread: Are minmatar BS and caps (Naglfar in particular, Niddy doesn't seem so bad) so far behind the others thats its worth it to suck it up and train up something else? My honest opinion is that if you are planning on using capitals in the near future, and you have no RP reason to do so - that you should steer clear of Minmatar batteships. Gallente battleship will serve you better in terms of getting your hands on various faction batteships, the Dominix is a great battleship and uses your drone skills well, the Moros is useful for its sentry drones and the Thanatos is the most versitile of the carriers with a decent personal tank. If battleships is only a stepping stone for dreads and carriers (that you are a capital alt or some such) then I would recommend Amarr for all the reasons previously posted. Minmatar ships past command ships (BB/Dread/Carrier/Mom/Titan) are sub-par. The nature of artillery, their lack of good onboard electronics, and their sub-standard tank all contribute to this general lack. In cruiser sized roaming gangs however, Minmatar are very good - versiility in BB and Capital ships is not desirable - a direct contradiction to the Minmatar mantra. ----
Liam Fremen Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:54:00 - [113] Btw, revelation are often on top of pos killmails for 2 reasons: 1) they do not reload, so they save up a lot of time over a large pos takedown 2) due to the fact they do not reload, even under heavy lag, if you activate ur guns once they keep firing forever, other dreads must deal with re-activating guns/launchers after the ammo clip is empty and auto-reloaded, when lag is few minutes for module activation it makes the difference. For the naglfar, just few things: 1) It looks awesome. 2) When it enter siege is an orgasm looking the guns sliding out and smoke come out :P 3) YOU WILL BE PRIMARY. Personal opinion as fc and after some intresting cap battles, even if you got a phoenix half shield and a naglfar comes in, is easier to switch, kill naglfar and back to phoenix due to how much difference there is on it... the primary list is always: 1) Naglfar 2) Moros 3) Revelation / Phoenix (fc choice, usually revelation come first) Remember always that Citadel torpedo have a BIG problem agains smartbombing carriers, a bunch of carriers with 2x large smartbomb each active will nearly totaly wipe out the full DPS of phoenixes and half of naglfar. _________________________________________________
Jethro Amar	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Liang Nuren Honestly, Gamesguy, that's an interesting analysis of the situation. I just don't see why that kind of damage is "not important". In the opposite extreme, you might have a Tempest (for example) launching Barrage at his shields. Barrage is Exp/Kin (the two highest shield resistances), and would take an extra 20 seconds to melt through his shields - your Geddon did it in 4 seconds. How is that not an advantage? Additionally, as the fight is protracted (such as shooting a POS), how does this kind of damage even factor in at all? Revelations consistently deal significantly more actual damage than all other dreads (even the Moros). -Liang Well, the thing is that DPS of a ship is constant no matter the target's resists while killmails show dps AFTER resist are applied. If you shoot 10k emp damage on unprotected shield - you dealt 10k damage and killmail says 10k damage. If you shoot 10k exp damage on protected armor (say 80% exp res) - you dealt 10k damage, which was then reduced to 2k on killmail. You'd need to deal 50k damage to get the same amount on killmail as the emp guy :) an example - armor tanked ship target shield: 0 emp res, 60 exp res, 10k buffer target armor: 90 emp res, 80exp res, 10k buffer attacker 1 deals 200dps emp, attacker 2 deals 200dps exp (i know it's low) attacker 1 will deal 7200 shield damage and 3300 armor damage for 10500 total attacker 2 will deal 2900 shield damage and 6600 armor damage for 9500 total As you can see, there is a significant difference in killmail even when both ships dealt the same amount of 'raw' damage. Of course, this is the way it should be: after all, the first ship had 'better' damage type :)

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