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Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.11 21:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Soulita Edited by: Soulita on 11/05/2008 11:49:03 Edited by: Soulita on 11/05/2008 11:10:33 Originally by: Venkul Mul You can find an example of player possession that has been removed from the game to rebalance? Or you are still playing the hypocrite game of "removing is the same thing as rebalancing when I don't own the item"? Mines. Snowballs - they melted Oh, and most importantly the infinte run BPCs. If I did own a t2 bpo, I would still be of the opinion that they need to be removed. Though I must admit I am not sure if I would publicly state that opinion. Respect to Natsuki for doing that. Shows courage. Mines are still in the game, there's no launchers though. Infinite BPCs were never removed to my knowledge. How can you confirm this? These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:12:00 - [92] Edited by: Soulita on 11/05/2008 22:12:08 Originally by: Wendat Huron Mines are still in the game, there's no launchers though. Yup, true. I have a collection of all four types of mines in my hangar. Most definatly still there. Also most definatly not useable. Originally by: Wendat Huron Infinite BPCs were never removed to my knowledge. How can you confirm this? Did not find a dev blog on this with the forum search, but found two intersting threads concerning the infinte run bpcs: Discussion of removal of infinite run bpcs (December 2003) Interesting, because it is very similar to the current discussion about t2 bpos. Sell order of a converted infinte run bpc They were converted to 200 run copies in the cold war patch.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.05.11 22:20:00 - [93] Edited by: Gamer4liff on 11/05/2008 22:21:35 Originally by: Soulita Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Soulita Maybe you would not have so much trouble finding new goals to pulverize your billions if you let go of your isk printing machine? But no, thats unthinkable, now isnt it? you are biased and too lazy do to invention ROFL. How about you? Open minded and would love to do invention? If you like invention so much, why do you like t2 bpos? Because they make earning isk with invention more of a challenge? Very sportsmanlike. I salute you. I invent, own 4 T2 bpos, and won them all myself last year. Or did I just blow your mind? It's not like you are one or the other. Anyway We T2 producers know the ins and outs of the T2 markets, so as much as you shout "biased" at us, you should listen to us. There are no good reasons for removing T2 bpos. It would destabilize the market and make T2 prices rise dramatically.
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2008.05.11 23:47:00 - [94] Quote: When do CCP plan to let the T2 BPO's expire ? Or will invention always be stuck on those unrealistically good blueprints ? And if... IF CCP does decide to get them out of the game, how will they handle it ? The T2 BPO situation is one of those problems that CCP painted themselves into a corner with - there is no solution that will make everyone happy. That said, what the hell do you want them to do, strip people of their assets?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.12 01:16:00 - [95] Originally by: Grendelsbane Quote: When do CCP plan to let the T2 BPO's expire ? Or will invention always be stuck on those unrealistically good blueprints ? And if... IF CCP does decide to get them out of the game, how will they handle it ? The T2 BPO situation is one of those problems that CCP painted themselves into a corner with - there is no solution that will make everyone happy. That said, what the hell do you want them to do, strip people of their assets? Its just easy to see he is typical socialist... No not everyone will be equal and not everyone will have same chances. You dodnt get t2 BPO - tough luck. You can work your ass and buy them or leave game if you dont like the idea. Option of doing inventions was presented to you already. And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs which net me around 300-400mil/month. In meantime i run invention which nets me more-less 3bil/month. I propose to nerf invention or remove all datacores and data interfaces from player hands (they dropped in too large numbers anyways).
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.12 01:56:00 - [96] Quote: And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs which net me around 300-400mil/month. In meantime i run invention which nets me more-less 3bil/month. So why are people paying billions and billions for them again? Oh that's right, because they're daft. Overrated collectors items is all T2 BPOs are. Improve Market Competition!
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:34:00 - [97] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its just easy to see he is typical socialist... No not everyone will be equal and not everyone will have same chances. You dodnt get t2 BPO - tough luck. You can work your ass and buy them or leave game if you dont like the idea. Option of doing inventions was presented to you already. And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs ... bla bla bla Beautiful. Quoted for preservation.
Dianeces Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:35:00 - [98] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Deva Blackfire Its just easy to see he is typical socialist... No not everyone will be equal and not everyone will have same chances. You dodnt get t2 BPO - tough luck. You can work your ass and buy them or leave game if you dont like the idea. Option of doing inventions was presented to you already. And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs ... bla bla bla Beautiful. Quoted for preservation. Quoting irony.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:40:00 - [99] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Life's not fair bud, live with it Indeed. So let's just remove them from the game, eh ?
Siddy Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:47:00 - [100] ill trade my BPO's for dyspor moons posses that are immportal, unremovable, always my and dont take fuel to run.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.05.12 07:52:00 - [101] Tech II BPOs isn't the problem anymore, invention covers them good and well, the few sources of high end moon materials are. If you have to whine then whine about inserting additional sources of these instead. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:34:00 - [102] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs So why are people paying billions and billions for them again? Oh that's right, because they're daft. Overrated collectors items is all T2 BPOs are. This. Plus they requite somewhat less work/management to start production (no playing with copying/inventing etc). But if i use 2 slots for my 2x BPO and rest 8 for invention production i make 4x more isk inventing.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:54:00 - [103] Originally by: Soulita There is good reasons for having t2 bpos expire, as has been said in this thread before. Of course most of those that have them, will not want this to happen, so they will continue to fight for them staying in game. In the end it is up to CCP. Ok, so let give a simple reply. As a consumer of T2 (I dubt that 1 Barrage M and 1 Quake l bpo make me much of t2 bpo owner) and as a inventer (about 1 year I do that, made more than 20 billions from invention) I feel that removing the T2 BPO will damage me, not help me. I will loose about 6 million day from the BPO (the equivalent of 20 minutes of level 4 missions each day ) but more important the T2 light drones I use will go to 800K, most t2 ammunitions will disappear or cost x5-6 the current price, small and probably medium railguns will disappear or incease tenfold light and assault missile launcher will do the same, pelnty of other marginal modules will soar in price to the point where best named or even low level faction are better. Essentially I will have the wonderful option to train the T2 version of small and medium guns in the different flavors (they are needed for learning the large versions) while not using them as the price will be too high to make them a serious alternative to best named. At the same time my gains as a inventing will not increase. Look the price of T2. The big drop happened when the books were moved from cosmos sites (where a small group of people was farming them and hoarding them to sell at a high price) to the general exploration sites. Essentially now invention is open to anyone. There is no big cost to enter. So everyone dabble in it. They biuld some stuff without researching the market and without including in the production costs the prices ot the items then don't buy from market (i.e. the datacores, some of the minerals, maybe even some T2 building stuff) so they are willing to undercut whatever price they find in market without really checking to see if they are going under the production costs (as they feel that watever they produce is "free" [if you want I can link several thread with people arguing that position]). BPO owners have influence on the inventors return only on the marginal items, those that sell for some hunder of thousand of isk (or even less). For all the rest of the items the competition is against other inventors. Remove the BPO and invention return will not change. BPO owners make more isk for item they sell but buying the BPO (look sell forum, T2 BPO are sold every day) require a big investment, so the return for the isk invested is low, probably lower than invention. So essentially my opinion is that: 1) removing T2 BPO will reduce variety of items offerend in market (I dubt we will see much T2 guns or missile/rocket launchers, for example); 2) will not increase invention returns; 3) is really wrong against people that have brought the BPO, paying the price of several years of production from the BPO to owning it.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.12 08:59:00 - [104] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs which net me around 300-400mil/month. In meantime i run invention which nets me more-less 3bil/month. So why are people paying billions and billions for them again? Oh that's right, because they're daft. Overrated collectors items is all T2 BPOs are. Essentially yes. I will not see a reason to pay a BPO mote than a year of gains at current prices. There is people buying them at a price equivalent to 3-4 years of production. for me that is daft.
Silistra Minmatar An Tir	Posted - 2008.05.12 11:51:00 - [105] The Lottery was a bad way to distribute The T2 BPO's but IMO they should still continue to be seeded somehow. The situation now (T2 BPO's and invention both being used) is vastly better for the majority - the consumers. I like the idea of having a small chance of getting a BPO from invention. Simply removing T2 BPO's would be horribly unfair to those who have them, regardless of how they were obtained.
Joza Gulikoza The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.05.12 11:52:00 - [106] T2BPOwhiners do you really think that current T2 BPO owners are the same people who won them in the lottery? So you think that someone who invested tens of billions for a collection of BPOs should have them turn to dust?
adriaans Amarr Ascendant Immortalis	Posted - 2008.05.12 13:28:00 - [107] Edited by: adriaans on 12/05/2008 13:28:55 DONT remove t2 bpo's before ME and PE levels affect bpc' outcome for invention (at LEAST be able to get ME/PE 0 instead of 50% waste cry (decrytpors too expensive and rare)) (and it takes TOO BLOODY LONG to BUILD THE ITEMS (especially t2 amarr ammo :/) tbh, i'd prefer they just added a 0.000000000001% chance of inventing a t2 bpo and make t3 PURE INVENTION ONLY, that should solve it no? and btw, its other inventors that are killing profits generally. and no i don't own any t2 bpo's (disclaimer because i said not to get rid of them) -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:40:00 - [108] My God, somebody actually said that T2 BPOs were holding down the price of T2 ships and robbing the inventors of profit. Is there no limit to nonsense in this thread? G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:03:00 - [109] this thread still going??? jeez!!! T2 bpo's dissapearing is not gonna happen, but if ur so desperate about it, i got 1, u can have, gimme 5 bill and it's yours _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:11:00 - [110] Originally by: adriaans Edited by: adriaans on 12/05/2008 13:28:55 DONT remove t2 bpo's before ME and PE levels affect bpc' outcome for invention (at LEAST be able to get ME/PE 0 instead of 50% waste cry (decrytpors too expensive and rare)) (and it takes TOO BLOODY LONG to BUILD THE ITEMS (especially t2 amarr ammo :/) tbh, i'd prefer they just added a 0.000000000001% chance of inventing a t2 bpo and make t3 PURE INVENTION ONLY, that should solve it no? and btw, its other inventors that are killing profits generally. and no i don't own any t2 bpo's (disclaimer because i said not to get rid of them) No, make it as suggested but then once the tech II prints are common as veldspar shift the 'invent BPO chance' to an astronomical tech III BPO. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Noob Much Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.12 21:56:00 - [111] Originally by: Jimmy Cliff Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40 I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game. Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table. I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one. --
Miss Xerox	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:13:00 - [112] IMO they need to bring the T2 lotto back. This will cause people to store up their cores rather than dump them on the market in prodigious quantities. This will put 'researchable' Blueprints out there better than the really lousy, non-researchable guranteed (at minimum) -2 ME waste BPCs that are driving the reactions market into US-Fuel-Cost price overload. Double the current quantity of non-ammo BPOs currently in the game, from the initial 20 (for ships & modules) to 40 or even higher. This will enable new owners to keep up with demand. The price of invention grows ever higher, and still enables BPO owners to make a profit but not the OMG ISK printing that once overexploited. Just don't increase ammo BPOs, there were 100 BPOs released per ammo type as it was and currently ammo invention cannot come close to breaking even, much less profit, regardless of the existance of T2 BPOs or not.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:29:00 - [113] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Originally by: Jimmy Cliff Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40 I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game. Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table. I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one. Who are they? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Madscience	Posted - 2008.05.13 10:21:00 - [114] T2 BPO owners can stil do invention just like everyone else and use the T2 BPO at the same time. The profit from the T2 BPO will help recovered the fail invention trials, and in the long run. T2 BPO owners can mass supply the products just like every other inventors T2 BPO owners have no lost to invention failure Granted not all T2 BPO are profitable, but for most profitable BPO, owners still can dictate the price by running invention. I am not in favor of removing T2 BPO, but i want all the T2 BPO have a PERMANANT negative ME betweein -1 to -5 to balance with the invention. After all with negative ME, T2 BPO owner can still build it free of failure chance while inventor still have to pay for the invention chance
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 10:40:00 - [115] Originally by: Madscience T2 BPO owners can stil do invention just like everyone else and use the T2 BPO at the same time. The profit from the T2 BPO will help recovered the fail invention trials, and in the long run. T2 BPO owners can mass supply the products just like every other inventors T2 BPO owners have no lost to invention failure Granted not all T2 BPO are profitable, but for most profitable BPO, owners still can dictate the price by running invention. I am not in favor of removing T2 BPO, but i want all the T2 BPO have a PERMANANT negative ME betweein -1 to -5 to balance with the invention. After all with negative ME, T2 BPO owner can still build it free of failure chance while inventor still have to pay for the invention chance The usual epic fail at economy 101 in this thread . You mash together the production done between BPo and invention, apply the advantages of one to the other and theen get a insensate conclusion. Great. Your idea is totally wrong. A T2 BPO is a huge investment. So the player that has brought one had his costs, equivalent to the effect of hundred or thousands of invention failures, at the start of the process. Then you want to penalize him more. Instead of crying in forum learn to do your math before starting to invent oversupplied items.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.05.13 10:45:00 - [116] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn Originally by: Jimmy Cliff I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game. Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table. I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one. Link to the page 3 of this thread, where CCP Oveur quote is posted for thos ethat don't bother to use the search funtion. At least read the thread. CCP oveur quote For Jim: so buying a BPO for 20 or 60 billions is not hard work in game? The isk come for thin air?
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.13 10:59:00 - [117] Edited by: Robacz on 13/05/2008 10:59:25 Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one. CCP never said that. They were only speaking about posibilities, long-run BPCs being one of them. On last Fanfest dev said there are no plans for turning BPOs into BPCs.
Callthetruth Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:48:00 - [118] look the simple solution for CCP is to a) increase the supply of t2 BPCs - which means more complexes etc. b) increase the number of runs on selected t2 BPC drops - perhaps random 1000 run drops or something that would allow a lottery like find ( ie randomise the number of runs on each unique drop) Seed in for LP at higher levels selected t2 BPCs as well. Or exchange offers.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:52:00 - [119] The lack of logic is strong with this one.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.13 11:59:00 - [120] Originally by: Callthetruth look the simple solution for CCP is to a) increase the supply of t2 BPCs - which means more complexes etc. b) increase the number of runs on selected t2 BPC drops - perhaps random 1000 run drops or something that would allow a lottery like find ( ie randomise the number of runs on each unique drop) Seed in for LP at higher levels selected t2 BPCs as well. Or exchange offers. Why? Most, if not all, T2 markets are oversaturated. By increasing T2 supply, you are going to hurt mostly inventors.

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