Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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another week another "i whine because i dont have t2 bpo".

You can buy them from owners and trash them if you dont like their existence.

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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..those lucky enough to win..

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Quote:

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Someone give him a t2 missile bpo to make him feel better.

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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When do CCP plan to let the T2 BPO's expire ?

Or will invention always be stuck on those unrealistically good blueprints ?
And if... IF CCP does decide to get them out of the game, how will they handle it ?

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Originally by: Soulita

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T2 BPOs. Let it go...

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Edited by: Natsuki on 10/05/2008 00:03:21
Let me start by saying I got a falcon bpo.

they should have never existed to begin with. but ccp never did a lot of things right to begin with. and if they ever do turn t2 bpos to bpc, they need to do it without advance warning.

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Edited by: Natsuki on 10/05/2008 00:03:21
Let me start by saying I got a falcon bpo.

they should have never existed to begin with. but ccp never did a lot of things right to begin with. and if they ever do turn t2 bpos to bpc, they need to do it without advance warning.

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As when they turn all supercaps into frigates? Oh yes I forgot, it's only cool if stuff explodes alot.

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Edited by: Natsuki on 10/05/2008 00:06:28

Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Edited by: Natsuki on 10/05/2008 00:03:21
Let me start by saying I got a falcon bpo.

they should have never existed to begin with. but ccp never did a lot of things right to begin with. and if they ever do turn t2 bpos to bpc, they need to do it without advance warning.

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As when they turn all supercaps into frigates? Oh yes I forgot, it's only cool if stuff explodes alot.

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supercaps take effort to acquire. t2 bpos required no effort aside from clicking a button and luck.

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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Clicking many buttons and banding together in an as large a group as possible? I see no more validity in that, frankly if in a large enough group luck isn't even a factor anymore, the outcome is a certainty. I'll take luck any day over that.

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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Clicking many buttons and banding together in an as large a group as possible? I see no more validity in that, frankly if in a large enough group luck isn't even a factor anymore, the outcome is a certainty. I'll take luck any day over that.

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oh don't gimme that ****. you know exactly what I am saying and you just refuse to admit the logic of what I say.

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Originally by: ghost st

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T2 bpos give an unfair advantage, that is why they need to go. I don think they should be removed outright. But i do think at some point in time they should no longer be able to switch hands, make it so that at some point in time they cannot be contracted or traded. And leave it at that.

The current owners will have time to make their buck off of them, and from there we can have a timetable for any nerfage, if its needed.

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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I see no logic in what you're saying, I see someone who feels their playstyle should be catered to and yes I have BPOs, I'd like them all in fact as I'm a collector but no, I don't have any of the really profitable ones, past, present or future.

Killing many peoples investments and perhaps even corporate identities so you can get what you feel is the cheapest possible ship to blow up is some very destructive influence indeed, I suggest you stick to what you do and let people with well-rounded thought out ideas deal with the 'tech II problem'.

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Edited by: Natsuki on 10/05/2008 00:28:52

Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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Shortsighted, why not seed more tech II BPOs as very successful invention jobs to saturate the market while rolling in tech III? This allowing tech II, now plentiful and in steady supply to fuel the tech III builds as a requirement as all inventors shift their research over to tech III for profit and the dream that they one day may invent that tech III BPO then later used to supply tech IV...

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the only logical way to go about this is to make inventing t3 a very tedious job requiring many EXTREMELY rare items... seems like it would be more looking for a pin made of gold in the haystack of 0.0. not "real" research, just item hunting like most other MMOs, and T2 invention as it is now.

CCP needs to come up with something new for inventing T3, rather than just item collecting.

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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I don't see why tech III would have to have a very novel approach in any way, that being said I do think the whole research process could be made a lot more interesting, with minigames. Dare I say even Ambulation minigames...

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Originally by: Natsuki

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Everyone that has a t2 bpo or conglomerates that have many have made back their investments hundreds of times over by now. there is no reason anyone should have that kind of easy money.

quote]

This isn't something I know much about, but arn't there lots of younger players who have recentley forked out many many billions of hard earned for their BP's, rather than getting them by one lucky click years ago?

Originally by: Natsuki

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...first: this 2nd: I said ccp SHOULD HAVE never out t2 bpos in the first place. now that they are here, everything as far as invention is screwed up, and I don't see a good or logical way to fix things except for turning all t2 bpos to bcps. Everyone that has a t2 bpo or conglomerates that have many have made back their investments hundreds of times over by now. there is no reason anyone should have that kind of easy money.

Making all T2 and higher construction REQUIRE invention would have little effect on the t2 conglomerates, they would simply do more invention. in fact it would probably help out a lot of people in the entire economy. I think t2 invention should require more items (all at a lower cost), which come from many areas and jobs in eve so that it reaches every part of the economy, from noobs, to explorers in 0.0.

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40
I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... [t2 bpos give an] unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40
I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... [t2 bpos give an] unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

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Your post makes no sense.

Believe it or not, people that wanted tech 2 bpos had DOZENS of accounts sometimes all doing research to attempt to get a tech 2 bpo.

Quite literally, these people worked their asses of to get a tech 2 bpo. And a lot of people didn't. The BPOs that are available now are up for grabs, as they always have been. So by your statement that "You can manage inventing stuff" you need to let it go because you are making an active choice NOT to purchase something that you could have to make your life "easier."

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Originally by: Narffy

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Believe it or not, there's thousands of other people who also had Dozens of accounts all doing research and didn't get a bpo.
Getting a permanent advantage like this over everyone else based on a single use of a random number generator is lame.

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Originally by: Natsuki

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tbh tho, I don't think even invention was done right, as it has no logical way of proceeding to Tech 3. You can only invent t2 bpcs from T1 bpos, thus you would need a t2 bpo to invent a t3 bpc. what about t4?

God so much in this game is done completely wrong and makes no sense.

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Originally by: Veldya

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I must admit I don't like the current T2/invention system, it is very much hit or miss and the failure rate on invention seems absurdly high and the cost to invent decent BPCs is very high.

I think most inventors are sticking to the module/rig market where cost is fairly low and ME is not as significant as it is for things like ships. I just can't imagine someone remotely competing against a ship BPO owner. Your only hope is that demand is so high that all the BPO based stock sells out first and yours can get a look in before the BPO manufacturer can replace the stock.

As it is, it is not an ideal scenario. As to being fair, it is part of business. If you are going to invest billions into something you have to think about the risk of likely change. Business graveyards are littered with people who were just unlucky enough to invest in businesses at the time of change, I am sure someone who invested in Zeplins prior to the boom in the aircraft area would have also felt cheated.

Change happens, if you bought a T2 BPO for profit then make the most out of it because the system is very flawed atm and it is likely to change. Profit on it while you can.

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Originally by: Narffy

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CCP could use market logs to approximate when the bpo owners who bought T2 bpo's make a profit off them and then turn them into bpc's at that point.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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They should have been removed long ago.

So long as they exist they will continue to make invention unprofitable. They should have been removed when invention came out, they've been allowed another free year, and its time to end it.

Will it mean prices will rise, yes. But at current prices you can't invent and sell between 80-90% of T2 items for a profit. It would allow those that invest heavily in invention to actually be able to do so profitably and dedicate themselves wholly to the endeavor instead of dabbling in it.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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They should have been removed long ago.

So long as they exist they will continue to make invention unprofitable. They should have been removed when invention came out, they've been allowed another free year, and its time to end it.

Will it mean prices will rise, yes. But at current prices you can't invent and sell between 80-90% of T2 items for a profit. It would allow those that invest heavily in invention to actually be able to do so profitably and dedicate themselves wholly to the endeavor instead of dabbling in it.

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It ism soo evident: Marauder and Black Ops invention is unprofitable because of the BPO.

(For the unenlighted: there are not Marauder and Black Ops BPO, but inventing and producing them is still unprofitable. Too much people that sell thinking that what they produce by themselves is free.)

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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T2 BPOs are holding down the price of trit?

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Veldya

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I must admit I don't like the current T2/invention system, it is very much hit or miss and the failure rate on invention seems absurdly high and the cost to invent decent BPCs is very high.

I think most inventors are sticking to the module/rig market where cost is fairly low and ME is not as significant as it is for things like ships. I just can't imagine someone remotely competing against a ship BPO owner. Your only hope is that demand is so high that all the BPO based stock sells out first and yours can get a look in before the BPO manufacturer can replace the stock.

As it is, it is not an ideal scenario. As to being fair, it is part of business. If you are going to invest billions into something you have to think about the risk of likely change. Business graveyards are littered with people who were just unlucky enough to invest in businesses at the time of change, I am sure someone who invested in Zeplins prior to the boom in the aircraft area would have also felt cheated.

Change happens, if you bought a T2 BPO for profit then make the most out of it because the system is very flawed atm and it is likely to change. Profit on it while you can.

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But you guys ever look the time needed to build from a BPO before speaking? With (probably, as the real number was never disclosed) 8 hulk BPO in all the game and a build time of more than 1 day, you are really convinced that the 8 hulks build every day by BPO owners are covering all the request in all of EVE? or even credibly putting a dent in it?

In the same timeframe where a BPO owner will build 2 hulks, a inventor will build 10 (including a very rough account of the PE malus), probably even more. The BPO owner will gain more form the single ship but he is not changing the sell price with his pitiful production.

You want to be wall mark, selling thousand of items, but with the single item return of a first class boutique. You can't have both.

If you sell thousand of items your margin on the single item is small, what count is the quantity you sell. On the other hand the BPO owner have the return of quality store but a low number of sales.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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They should have been removed long ago.

So long as they exist they will continue to make invention unprofitable. They should have been removed when invention came out, they've been allowed another free year, and its time to end it.

Will it mean prices will rise, yes. But at current prices you can't invent and sell between 80-90% of T2 items for a profit. It would allow those that invest heavily in invention to actually be able to do so profitably and dedicate themselves wholly to the endeavor instead of dabbling in it.

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It ism soo evident: Marauder and Black Ops invention is unprofitable because of the BPO.

(For the unenlighted: there are not Marauder and Black Ops BPO, but inventing and producing them is still unprofitable. Too much people that sell thinking that what they produce by themselves is free.)

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40
I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table.

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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T2 BPOs are holding down the price of trit?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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They should have been removed long ago.

So long as they exist they will continue to make invention unprofitable. They should have been removed when invention came out, they've been allowed another free year, and its time to end it.

Will it mean prices will rise, yes. But at current prices you can't invent and sell between 80-90% of T2 items for a profit. It would allow those that invest heavily in invention to actually be able to do so profitably and dedicate themselves wholly to the endeavor instead of dabbling in it.

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It ism soo evident: Marauder and Black Ops invention is unprofitable because of the BPO.

(For the unenlighted: there are not Marauder and Black Ops BPO, but inventing and producing them is still unprofitable. Too much people that sell thinking that what they produce by themselves is free.)

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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So invent things for which there are no BPOs and make HUGE profit, amirite?

EAS and HICs spring to mind here. There are no BPOs for those, so a quick investigation of the market for those will show you what kind of profits you could expect in a BPO free game.

The old T2 BPO situation was obviously unsatisfactory. The current situation may also be somewhat unfair but as previously commented, the volume of the market makes it irrelevant. Prices on T2 items aren't low because of BPOs; prices are low because invention is accessible to anyone. The level of the market is set by the best-skilled inventors, and it is they whom the noob T2 producer is really competing with.

tl;dr: Get all your relevant skills to 5 and see how much profit you make then.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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really, directly contradicting the devs at fanfest?

The reason the devs and gms dont respond in these types of threads is becuase arguements that are valid (eg mine) are ignored, and idiots like you continue to make up whatever whining excuse you need to keep the thread rolling untill you 'win'

T2 BPOs are holding down the price of trit?

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No but they are artificially holding down t2 prices. It is an advantage no one else has and no one can obtain. When first announced about invention Oveur said that the t2 BPOs would be removed and it's about time it happened.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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they are artificially holding down t2 prices. It is an advantage no one else has and no one can obtain. When first announced about invention Oveur said that the t2 BPOs would be removed and it's about time it happened.

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Quote:

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No but they are artificially holding down t2 prices

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Quote:

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It is an advantage no one else has and no one can obtain

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Quote:

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When first announced about invention Oveur said that the t2 BPOs would be removed and it's about time it happened.

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Originally by: Veldya

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As I said, it is about the supply and demand, how many hulks get purchased a week vs how many BPO hulks are created vs how many BPC hulks are created. A BPO manufacturer would be able to undercut a BPC manufacturer and you will have a lot of BPC manufacturers taking significantly longer to move stock with significantly lower profit margins per sale.

There is absolutely nothing that the new or unlucky manufacturer can do to compete and I don't know how many of what types of BPOs are out there and in use, if it is enough to cause you to hold onto stock for a long time then it would not be remotely viable to compete.

My beef is not so much with the BPOs but with the invention system, if it wasn't so hit or miss AND expensive then you could at least invest enough in the invention process to get a good quality BPC that would compete with BPOs, when you factor in invention failures to your overhead cost it is just not remotely viable.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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T2 BPOs are holding down the price of trit?

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No but they are artificially holding down t2 prices. It is an advantage no one else has and no one can obtain. When first announced about invention Oveur said that the t2 BPOs would be removed and it's about time it happened.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Malcanis

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So invent things for which there are no BPOs and make HUGE profit, amirite?

EAS and HICs spring to mind here. There are no BPOs for those, so a quick investigation of the market for those will show you what kind of profits you could expect in a BPO free game.

The old T2 BPO situation was obviously unsatisfactory. The current situation may also be somewhat unfair but as previously commented, the volume of the market makes it irrelevant. Prices on T2 items aren't low because of BPOs; prices are low because invention is accessible to anyone. The level of the market is set by the best-skilled inventors, and it is they whom the noob T2 producer is really competing with.

tl;dr: Get all your relevant skills to 5 and see how much profit you make then.

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Not enough demand for those two ship types to cover the long term expenses of invention. You need to make it viable to invent anything, which sadly right now it isn't. In fact using invention its almost impossible to make a profit unless you just assume your time is worthless and mine most of it yourself (including the moon stuff).

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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Originally by: Dianeces

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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I wasn't talking about Marauder and Black Ops....

Yes there are those that consider their time worthless, and you'll never change those. At the same time the t2 BPOs are nothing more than shuttles in the pricing scheme of things. They removed NPC shuttle sales because they were holding down the price of tritanium. They should eliminate the t2 BPOs for the same reason.

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T2 BPOs are holding down the price of trit?

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No but they are artificially holding down t2 prices. It is an advantage no one else has and no one can obtain. When first announced about invention Oveur said that the t2 BPOs would be removed and it's about time it happened.

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Don't say falsehood. I have read practically anything that was written by Devs about invention and it was never stated that the T2 BPo would be removed.

So post a link if you aren't inventing if from nothing.

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Originally by: Natsuki

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supercaps take effort to acquire. t2 bpos required no effort aside from clicking a button and luck.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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If this forum had a search engine I'd be happy to. Its in one of the initial threads talking about invention. He did say that they were looking into removing them but were working on how to compensate, personally they've had enough compensation with the millions of isk they've made over the last year alone.

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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Regarding the question of more BPOs, where they come from, turning older BPOs int BPCs. There isn't an answer to that. It's almost impossible to achieve a mechanic for putting out such immense treasures like Ship BPOs while the "lesser" BPOs aren't in money-printing-territory, making those BPOs unfairly biased by the need to make Ship BPOs "fairly" distributed.

However, imagine if you could work with BPCs? Then you could get a BPC from invention, spend some time increasing runs, making it more efficient and better compete - if you are willing to put time into it? Perhaps Reverse Engineering should be this mechanic? Perhaps it's there we should focus on achieving more BPO like stature of invented BPOs? By this I mean primarily the runs. After a certain amounts of runs, you're in the BPO territory, especially if you are allowed to work with it, aren't you?

Current Tech 2 BPOs will certainly not be removed. There are more than 10.000 out there, far from all of them being something really sought after. However, it's certainly worth investigating turning them into very high run BPCs like was done with the old Infinite copies but I'd say that the ability to work with them more (research etc.) would be an absolute prerequisite before doing anything like that.

Now, IF we find a final solution, which we all trust and feel "fair", for example one which takes more aspects than a single BPO example into account (I'm getting tired of the Hulk/HAC example here), we could with certainty say that all future tech comes through invention. Until then, we can't even entertain the thought.

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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If this forum had a search engine I'd be happy to. Its in one of the initial threads talking about invention. He did say that they were looking into removing them but were working on how to compensate, personally they've had enough compensation with the millions of isk they've made over the last year alone.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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If this forum had a search engine I'd be happy to. Its in one of the initial threads talking about invention. He did say that they were looking into removing them but were working on how to compensate, personally they've had enough compensation with the millions of isk they've made over the last year alone.

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"Hi i bought my new t2 BPO for 10bil isk yesterday. I made total zero ISK till today and now you removed my BPO. Where is my compensation?"

To sum up - you are either stupid or totally clueless. Or both at the same time.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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"Hi i bought my new t2 BPO for 10bil isk yesterday. I made total zero ISK till today and now you removed my BPO. Where is my compensation?"

To sum up - you are either stupid or totally clueless. Or both at the same time.

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1. Make additional T2 BPOs available to the general populace through some means of hard work.


2. Level the playing field by making all T2 BPOs BPCs and moving all T2 production to invention only.

Originally by: Zor Chayne

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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"Hi i bought my new t2 BPO for 10bil isk yesterday. I made total zero ISK till today and now you removed my BPO. Where is my compensation?"

To sum up - you are either stupid or totally clueless. Or both at the same time.

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You are unbelievably narrow minded. If you want to play the fairness-by-numbers game, give me the percentage of the Eve userbase that own a Falcon BPO or a Sabre BPO. 1%? 0.1%? Less? That's a pretty small number huh? How is that fair to the 99.9% of the rest of the userbase?

These threads are full of people complaining that things aren't handed to them on a plate, and T2 BPO owners that just bftch at the complainers.

You have two choices, it's very simple:

1. Make additional T2 BPOs available to the general populace through some means of hard work.


2. Level the playing field by making all T2 BPOs BPCs and moving all T2 production to invention only.

If CCP want to claim people can make anything they like of themselves in this universe, then they can't have little elitist circlejerks like limited T2 BPOs, I mean we all remember how that has been abused in the past, don't we?

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Originally by: Zor Chayne

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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"Hi i bought my new t2 BPO for 10bil isk yesterday. I made total zero ISK till today and now you removed my BPO. Where is my compensation?"

To sum up - you are either stupid or totally clueless. Or both at the same time.

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You are unbelievably narrow minded. If you want to play the fairness-by-numbers game, give me the percentage of the Eve userbase that own a Falcon BPO or a Sabre BPO. 1%? 0.1%? Less? That's a pretty small number huh? How is that fair to the 99.9% of the rest of the userbase?

These threads are full of people complaining that things aren't handed to them on a plate, and T2 BPO owners that just bftch at the complainers.

You have two choices, it's very simple:

1. Make additional T2 BPOs available to the general populace through some means of hard work.


2. Level the playing field by making all T2 BPOs BPCs and moving all T2 production to invention only.

If CCP want to claim people can make anything they like of themselves in this universe, then they can't have little elitist circlejerks like limited T2 BPOs, I mean we all remember how that has been abused in the past, don't we?

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Originally by: Zor Chayne

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You are unbelievably narrow minded. If you want to play the fairness-by-numbers game, give me the percentage of the Eve userbase that own a Falcon BPO or a Sabre BPO. 1%? 0.1%? Less? That's a pretty small number huh? How is that fair to the 99.9% of the rest of the userbase?

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Quote:

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You have two choices, it's very simple:
[list=1]

Make additional T2 BPOs available to the general populace through some means of hard work.

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Quote:

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If CCP want to claim people can make anything they like of themselves in this universe, then they can't have little elitist circlejerks like limited T2 BPOs, I mean we all remember how that has been abused in the past, don't we?

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Originally by: Gamer4liff

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Edited by: Gamer4liff on 10/05/2008 16:05:06

Originally by: Zor Chayne

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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"Hi i bought my new t2 BPO for 10bil isk yesterday. I made total zero ISK till today and now you removed my BPO. Where is my compensation?"

To sum up - you are either stupid or totally clueless. Or both at the same time.

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You are unbelievably narrow minded. If you want to play the fairness-by-numbers game, give me the percentage of the Eve userbase that own a Falcon BPO or a Sabre BPO. 1%? 0.1%? Less? That's a pretty small number huh? How is that fair to the 99.9% of the rest of the userbase?

These threads are full of people complaining that things aren't handed to them on a plate, and T2 BPO owners that just bftch at the complainers.

You have two choices, it's very simple:

1. Make additional T2 BPOs available to the general populace through some means of hard work.


2. Level the playing field by making all T2 BPOs BPCs and moving all T2 production to invention only.

If CCP want to claim people can make anything they like of themselves in this universe, then they can't have little elitist circlejerks like limited T2 BPOs, I mean we all remember how that has been abused in the past, don't we?

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So what? just because we are relatively few in number they should punish us? Are we not players too? Should we delete all accounts with 90m+ skillpoints? Should we find out where all T2 BPO owners live, round them up into camps and... You get the picture.

Why don't you just come out and say you hate minorities.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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You're not being punished. Rebalancing happens all the time in games.

If you bought a T2 BPO since invention came out for a ridiculous sum that's your fault. The writing was on the wall when it came out, they realized that the method they had been using was flawed and needed to be replaced. It is time to take the next logical step and remove the remaining T2 BPOs from the game. (Just convert them to max run BPCs, much like the old infinite BPCs were converted.)

The primary reason I feel they haven't done this is to many developers have a vested interest in the t2 BPOs. That is they belong to corporations or alliances that own a significant number and thus don't want to have to compete themselves with the rest of the EVE population.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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TBH arguments over T2 BPOs really irk me, and this is mainly because of the main train of thought leading to the conclusion that they need to be removed:

The lottery was an unfair, ridiculous way to dispense such isk printing machines. This much is true. However, there is absolutely no way in hell you could possibly argue fairness in this debate without being a hypocrite. Eve is either meant to be fair or it isn't. If it is then removing BPOs from the people who spent 10s of billions of isk on them would be unfair, so you should not remove the TII BPOs.
If it isn't then it doesn't matter that they have the BPOs in the first place.

I find it irritating that people complain so much about tech II BPOs. Most of the people who have them now got them by buying them, for ridiculous prices, and quite frankly just because you can't be bothered to amass the 30bil for a HAC BPO does not, in any way, prove that they are unbalanced. Their introduction into the game was flawed, but right now they're so ridiculously expensive that the isk that they print out is in no way overkill.

A couple hundred mil and a couple lvl 4s can get you into invention, it take billions upon billions of isk to get a TII BPO, why the hell should profit margins be the same for the 2?

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Originally by: Frug

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Someone give him a t2 missile bpo to make him feel better.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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The lottery was an unfair, ridiculous way to dispense such isk printing machines. This much is true.

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Originally by: Cambarus

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However, there is absolutely no way in hell you could possibly argue fairness in this debate without being a hypocrite. Eve is either meant to be fair or it isn't. If it is then removing BPOs from the people who spent 10s of billions of isk on them would be unfair, so you should not remove the TII BPOs.

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Originally by: Soulita

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Originally by: Cambarus

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The lottery was an unfair, ridiculous way to dispense such isk printing machines. This much is true.

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Yup.

Originally by: Cambarus

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However, there is absolutely no way in hell you could possibly argue fairness in this debate without being a hypocrite. Eve is either meant to be fair or it isn't. If it is then removing BPOs from the people who spent 10s of billions of isk on them would be unfair, so you should not remove the TII BPOs.

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Going by that reasoning all kind of balancing of modules and ships or anything else in EVE should not be done. People invest time and isk in getting skills up for whatever, then it gets nerfed. Happens all the time. Often without any warning, and as far as I remember always without compensation.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You can find an example of player possession that has been removed from the game to rebalance? Or you are still playing the hypocrite game of "removing is the same thing as rebalancing when I don't own the item"?

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Originally by: Soulita

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You can find an example of player possession that has been removed from the game to rebalance? Or you are still playing the hypocrite game of "removing is the same thing as rebalancing when I don't own the item"?

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Mines.

Snowballs - they melted

Oh, and most importantly the infinte run BPCs.


If I did own a t2 bpo, I would still be of the opinion that they need to be removed.
Though I must admit I am not sure if I would publicly state that opinion.
Respect to Natsuki for doing that. Shows courage.

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Originally by: El'Niaga

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The primary reason I feel they haven't done this is to many developers have a vested interest in the t2 BPOs. That is they belong to corporations or alliances that own a significant number and thus don't want to have to compete themselves with the rest of the EVE population.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Soulita

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You can find an example of player possession that has been removed from the game to rebalance? Or you are still playing the hypocrite game of "removing is the same thing as rebalancing when I don't own the item"?

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Mines.

Snowballs - they melted

Oh, and most importantly the infinte run BPCs.


If I did own a t2 bpo, I would still be of the opinion that they need to be removed.
Though I must admit I am not sure if I would publicly state that opinion.
Respect to Natsuki for doing that. Shows courage.

---

Mines - still in the hangars, they are still sold (contracts), use was stopped, from what I have read they can even be produced from the old BP.

Snowballs - now they are water so not removed

Infinite run BPC - first the production of infinite copy was stopped, then, after some time, the infinite copy were turned to max run copies, but the copies per se weren't removed and the capacity of producing copies wasn't removed. The item BPC wasn't removed from the game (but it is still the better example).

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Originally by: Soulita

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There is good reasons for having t2 bpos expire, as has been said in this thread before. Of course most of those that have them, will not want this to happen, so they will continue to fight for them staying in game.

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Originally by: SiJira

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Originally by: Soulita

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There is good reasons for having t2 bpos expire, as has been said in this thread before. Of course most of those that have them, will not want this to happen, so they will continue to fight for them staying in game.

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name 3 different reasons?

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Originally by: Soulita

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Read the thread?

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Quote:

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most of those who have them bought them with hard earned isk and didnt get them in a lottery

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Quote:

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invention has removed any problems like price gouging with t2 bpos

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Originally by: SiJira

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Originally by: Soulita

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Read the thread?

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Quote:

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most of those who have them bought them with hard earned isk and didnt get them in a lottery

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Quote:

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invention has removed any problems like price gouging with t2 bpos

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Originally by: Soulita

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Maybe you would not have so much trouble finding new goals to pulverize your billions if you let go of your isk printing machine? But no, thats unthinkable, now isnt it?

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Originally by: SiJira

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Originally by: Soulita

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Maybe you would not have so much trouble finding new goals to pulverize your billions if you let go of your isk printing machine? But no, thats unthinkable, now isnt it?

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you are biased and too lazy do to invention

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Originally by: Soulita

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Edited by: Soulita on 11/05/2008 11:49:03
Edited by: Soulita on 11/05/2008 11:10:33

Originally by: Venkul Mul

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You can find an example of player possession that has been removed from the game to rebalance? Or you are still playing the hypocrite game of "removing is the same thing as rebalancing when I don't own the item"?

---

Mines.

Snowballs - they melted

Oh, and most importantly the infinte run BPCs.


If I did own a t2 bpo, I would still be of the opinion that they need to be removed.
Though I must admit I am not sure if I would publicly state that opinion.
Respect to Natsuki for doing that. Shows courage.

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Originally by: Wendat Huron

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Mines are still in the game, there's no launchers though.

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Originally by: Wendat Huron

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Infinite BPCs were never removed to my knowledge. How can you confirm this?

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Originally by: Soulita

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Originally by: SiJira

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Originally by: Soulita

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Maybe you would not have so much trouble finding new goals to pulverize your billions if you let go of your isk printing machine? But no, thats unthinkable, now isnt it?

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you are biased and too lazy do to invention

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ROFL. How about you? Open minded and would love to do invention?
If you like invention so much, why do you like t2 bpos?
Because they make earning isk with invention more of a challenge?

Very sportsmanlike. I salute you.

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Quote:

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When do CCP plan to let the T2 BPO's expire ?

Or will invention always be stuck on those unrealistically good blueprints ?
And if... IF CCP does decide to get them out of the game, how will they handle it ?

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Originally by: Grendelsbane

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Quote:

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When do CCP plan to let the T2 BPO's expire ?

Or will invention always be stuck on those unrealistically good blueprints ?
And if... IF CCP does decide to get them out of the game, how will they handle it ?

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The T2 BPO situation is one of those problems that CCP painted themselves into a corner with - there is no solution that will make everyone happy. That said, what the hell do you want them to do, strip people of their assets?

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Quote:

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And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs which net me around 300-400mil/month. In meantime i run invention which nets me more-less 3bil/month.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Its just easy to see he is typical socialist... No not everyone will be equal and not everyone will have same chances. You dodnt get t2 BPO - tough luck. You can work your ass and buy them or leave game if you dont like the idea. Option of doing inventions was presented to you already.

And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs ... bla bla bla

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Originally by: Soulita

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Its just easy to see he is typical socialist... No not everyone will be equal and not everyone will have same chances. You dodnt get t2 BPO - tough luck. You can work your ass and buy them or leave game if you dont like the idea. Option of doing inventions was presented to you already.

And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs ... bla bla bla

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Beautiful. Quoted for preservation.

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Originally by: Grarr Dexx

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Life's not fair bud, live with it

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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So why are people paying billions and billions for them again?

Oh that's right, because they're daft. Overrated collectors items is all T2 BPOs are.

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Originally by: Soulita

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There is good reasons for having t2 bpos expire, as has been said in this thread before. Of course most of those that have them, will not want this to happen, so they will continue to fight for them staying in game.

In the end it is up to CCP.

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Quote:

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And FYI: i have 7-8 (cant remember now) t2 BPOs which net me around 300-400mil/month. In meantime i run invention which nets me more-less 3bil/month.

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So why are people paying billions and billions for them again?

Oh that's right, because they're daft. Overrated collectors items is all T2 BPOs are.

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Originally by: adriaans

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Edited by: adriaans on 12/05/2008 13:28:55
DONT remove t2 bpo's before ME and PE levels affect bpc' outcome for invention (at LEAST be able to get ME/PE 0 instead of 50% waste *cry* (decrytpors too expensive and rare)) (and it takes TOO BLOODY LONG to BUILD THE ITEMS (especially t2 amarr ammo :/)

tbh, i'd prefer they just added a 0.000000000001% chance of inventing a t2 bpo and make t3 PURE INVENTION ONLY, that *should* solve it no?

and btw, its other inventors that are killing profits generally.

and no i don't own any t2 bpo's (disclaimer because i said not to get rid of them)

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40
I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table.

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Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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Edited by: Jimmy Cliff on 09/05/2008 22:40:40
I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table.

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I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one.

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Originally by: Madscience

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T2 BPO owners can stil do invention just like everyone else and use the T2 BPO at the same time. The profit from the T2 BPO will help recovered the fail invention trials, and in the long run.

*T2 BPO owners can mass supply the products just like every other inventors
*T2 BPO owners have no lost to invention failure

Granted not all T2 BPO are profitable, but for most profitable BPO, owners still can dictate the price by running invention. I am not in favor of removing T2 BPO, but i want all the T2 BPO have a PERMANANT negative ME betweein -1 to -5 to balance with the invention. After all with negative ME, T2 BPO owner can still build it free of failure chance while inventor still have to pay for the invention chance

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Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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I don't want the bpo's... I can manage inventing stuff... but on your point, those lucky enough to win in the T2-lottery have an unfair advantage on those that actually work hard in-game.

Besides, I think it's an honest question asked... hear-say has had rumors running for a long while now, so I suppose it's only fair to get those rumors on the table.

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I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one.

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Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn

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I'd like an answer to that, too. Because 18 months ago or so they said they'd be turned into long running copies, and ever since I held off buying one.

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Originally by: Callthetruth

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look the simple solution for CCP is to a) increase the supply of t2 BPCs - which means more complexes etc. b) increase the number of runs on selected t2 BPC drops - perhaps random 1000 run drops or something that would allow a lottery like find ( ie randomise the number of runs on each unique drop)

Seed in for LP at higher levels selected t2 BPCs as well. Or exchange offers.

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Originally by: Madscience

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The Titan costs more than 40b, I demand the remote DD back. Does it sound as stupid as your statment?

T2 Lottery was an epic failure that screw up 99.99% of players, and to remove the T2 BPO that will screw honest players who invest time and money to buy them just as bad as the lottery. I am not asking to remove T2 BPO off the game, but to change the ME of the BPO to balance with the invention.

what will affect the T2 BPO owners?

It depends on ME changed, and the best change for T2 BPO is ME=-1. The owners still produce the item free of invention failure while inventors can get close to the advantage T2 BPO owners have and dont feel getting shafted.

Right now all the T2 BPO owners have to do is researched their BPO's ME level between 5 to 9 and can compete with any inventor. Remember T2 BPO owners can do invention just like everyone else, but everyone else dont have the advantage of the T2 BPO.

In the long run T2 BPO + Invention = Mass supply + no invention failure cost

To demonstrate i use EVE-MEEP and Ishtar as example and ME=0 as control
ME=-1 costs 7.7% more
ME=-5 costs 29.3% more
ME=1 costs 4.1% less
ME=5 costs 7.6% less
ME=10 costs 8.1% less

now you can see my proposed ME change of T2 BPO between ME=-1 to ME=-5 still reasonable, and T2 BPO owner still have the advantage.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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What i would like to see is an ability to get more ME efficient BPCs off invention.

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Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm hungry and naked. That answer your question?

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Quote:

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For Jim: so buying a BPO for 20 or 60 billions is not hard work in game? The isk come for thin air?

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Originally by: Tek'a Rain

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Originally by: Jimmy Cliff

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..those lucky enough to win..

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Problem here. Most T2 BPOs, the ones worth anything and Expecially the older ones, are Not in the hands of the original owners.

They are heavy investments, often corp-level, slow to pay off and require huge logistical trains to be worth anything at all. How would you feel to buy a BPO (as a handful of even 'good' ones are sold all the time) only to have it massively nerfed the very next day, preventing you from ever recouping your expense?

Furthermore, on some t2 items, the heavily researched blueprints are the only economical way to manufacture the goods at an acceptable price.. or would you rather small t2 drones were almost impossible to find, same with ammo, some turrets, various fitting that all cost more to invent then people will pay.

T2 prints are not an "isk fountain", they are not cheating, not unfair and they are certainly not wrecking the market any more, so why change a working system?

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Originally by: Hup Lee

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Edited by: Hup Lee on 14/05/2008 00:41:46
Hi guys,
New producer & researcher here & yes I've done a lot of research before I made a character that fitted myself.

From what I have learned about producing(crafting in this game) is that there are things like T2 BPOs. This gives a unfair advantage to those holders as The ME, TE level is way higher than any inventor can create. Invention benefits the component producers & the Moon Material miners. T2 BPOs can be researched to no extent, thus lowering the costs & materials needed to produce the item, thus more profit. If anything the invention system needs a overhaul.

As to some other concerns that removing T2 BPOs would cause the market to fluctuate severely. I think this may happen at 1st when supplies are not there, but as more producers start inventing & see that it's lucrative to invent, the market should steadily fall & level over a month or so. It happened when shuttles we're not seeded anymore and now we see a leveling off in prices.

Edit: Spelling =)

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Quote:

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New producer

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Quote:

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For Jim: so buying a BPO for 20 or 60 billions is not hard work in game? The isk come for thin air?

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Earning 20 or 60 billion is hard work. Spending it on a T2 BPO is like spending 40 million on a single Defender missile.

That's all I really care about with T2 BPO's anymore really, the fact they are wasted, useless pieces of game content now when they could've been so much more. If 'collectors' want to blow their money on something, go throw billions at people with Complex Fullerene Shards or Apotheosis' or other stuff like that.

I'd pay at-absolute-most 10 billion for a Nighthawk BPO today.

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Quote:

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While I will not pay the current price of the T2 BPO you must consider the prices currently paid for them and the fact that they are changing hands even today when you try to suggest a change.

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Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm hungry and naked. That answer your question?

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Originally by: Kylar Renpurs

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Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 14/05/2008 07:10:49

Quote:

---

While I will not pay the current price of the T2 BPO you must consider the prices currently paid for them and the fact that they are changing hands even today when you try to suggest a change.

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I wouldn't tbqh. Nobody gave a stuff when they seeded data interfaces more commonly and dropped their value from close to 1 billion for a ship data interface down to 100-200mil, or Standard Data Interfaces, dropping from 200 mil down to 5 mil, or even Encryption Methods Skillbooks, down from 450-500mil to just 5 mil.

Why should T2 BPOs be given kid gloves because a few people with too much isk and too few brains want special treatment?

EDIT: And which is a more fair situation? Make one person lose 40 billion in value by nerfing T2 BPOs in some fashion (removing, seeding, whatever), yet lose no actual ability to keep playing the game. Or make 40 people (gross underestimate) lose 1 bil each on their invention investments?

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Originally by: Segge Bolled

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"Oh no, someone won a lottery I didn't take part in/didn't win! Quick, take away their winnings! It isn't fair to everyone else that they have something we don't!"

What are you people? Dirty bloody communists is what, I say!

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Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm hungry and naked. That answer your question?

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Originally by: KHEN

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Edited by: KHEN on 14/05/2008 11:23:01
Edited by: KHEN on 14/05/2008 11:20:07
hmm Soulita, yes the lottery was bad, and I've never win anything from it.

But since, I used my brain and made good business from manufacturing and I spent more than 300 Bil isks in T2 bpos to enter the competition,

Now some new peeps came to EVE and point us, T2 bpo owners, as lucky bastards who should be depleted from their assets, just because they are f***ing rich bastards that do an unfair business.

but be honest : in this case who is unfair ? Who spends his time posting hate messages against people who managed to do something in EVE ?

yeah remove the T2 bpos, including Jump Freighters bpos, T2 BS bpos, EWFrigs bpos and HIC bpos to solve the problems of surabondance of T2 stuff, that's so smart

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Originally by: Soulita

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What you need to realize, is that the investment you did to gain the bpos would not be lost completely if they are converted to long run bpcs.

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Originally by: Soulita

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... I am afraid I am a dirty bloody capitalist

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Originally by: Soulita

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What is important is that the lottery won t2 bpos are removed from the game, and that this is made official. The timeframe (as long as it is somehow reasonable) in which this will happen and the exact method of how it is done, are open.

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Originally by: Soulita

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I personally do not see a problem if the t2 bpos become such long run bpcs that using up all the runs would take a year, or two or maybe even three to do.

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Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm hungry and naked. That answer your question?

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