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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ulnah
Preatum.Niht.Hraefn
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Posted - 2008.06.24 03:44:00 -
[301]
IMO, to survive in combat today in EVE there are 2 main routes: nano fittings and HP buffers.
 Nano fittings
They are a natural development from WCS nerf. People use a "You cant touch me" effect to kill and protect themselves. They are annoing, yeah. But even I dont want Stasis bubbles: there are too many ways to counter it (nanos, ECM, dampners, etc).
HPBuffers fittings
This are tricky.
I believe they are the result from many separade factors:
- EANM II;
- HP buff;
- Stacking nerf;
- Armor EM nerf (calm amarrians, read the post).
In this, not only 1400mm suffer: all long range artillary plataforms suffer equally. Rails, laser, cruise and projectives have the same problem: too much HP to take our from the target before it MWD and kill you or run.
My suggestion is simple:
 Remove Armor EM nerf Only if needed;
Remove ALL WEAPONS RELATED STACK PENALITIES.
This will bring all artillaries back to combat scene, along some others old and effectives setups. This will give a nice boost on several ships (Armagedon, Rokh, Tempest, Maelstron) and, as was my intention, wont remove the HPBuffers. This will bring a old play option: pure gank.
My 0,02 ISK.
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Mangold
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 04:05:00 -
[302]
I've been playing since spring 2003 and my char is more or less maxed out for artillery. I only have art spec IV, but that's about the only skill relevant to sniping that I dont have at level 5.
I never use my tempest. I never try to snipe. Why? Siddy has covered it already in this thread. I'd love to see a buff to the alhpa of the 1400mm. That was the thing that made a difference with them before. I really don't see a reason to use snipe pest for anything but fleet or pos combat.
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Siddy
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.06.24 07:24:00 -
[303]
 Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Oh I can think of about a thousand of them. From splash damage,
From slpash damage
Splash damage
Splash
Yes, you are true brainstormer, CCP shuld hire you for additional LuLz department, i havent laught so good in a while.
-------------
T'ey see me t'Rollin,
t'ey hatin, pa'trolli.
T'ey trying catch me writing dirty... |
Siddy
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 07:57:00 -
[304]
Edited by: Siddy on 24/06/2008 07:59:20
Originally by: Lrrp
Well here's a thought to ponder that somewhat ties into these 11 pages. A while back CCP in it's infinite wisdom, decided to buff hp's on all ships and nerf damage. Why? Because fights were over too quick. And so it happened that fights now take longer (especially larger fleet battles). So what Siddy is saying about bringing back larger hits has some merit. I'm just wondering if ships dying quicker would not help lag in larger fleet warfare.
Quicker things die, the less things the servers have to keep track of. Less things to keep track of the faster lag clears up. Just my 2 centavos
Ships never died "fast" in fleet.
Ships died as fast as lag culd premit them to die in fleets. Since there is no HP buffer on battleship that can help you (besides divine jesus armor gundamsuit2000) survive from wrath of odd 50 BS's. Save from Capitalships, that can benefit from this in fleet, BS's only benefit DDD shield or reaction time buffer to warp away. But then again, i had more easier time ot warp away before EHP boost than after because lag wasent so outright BAD back then... and no bubbles.
Anyhow
The one of the things CCP wanted with HP buffer, was to promote remote repping.
Since you still die in PVPPPPP situation regardles of HP buffer, before "help" can arrive.
So, besides of remoterepping spidertanks, CCP created the EHP buffer monsters that populate the wast galaxy.
How much intentional that was i dont know. I know that CCP had to actualy nerf some EHP platfroms, mainly gallente's hevydrone cruisers and BC.
This all has led to current DPS + EHP setups, like Platedtron and Armaplateon 
Lots of shieldpassive tanks and lots and lots of exstender nanofagottory.
/edit: im not saying above is bad, im just saying give us Alpha wepon back Since there culd be some use for it.
-------------
T'ey see me t'Rollin,
t'ey hatin, pa'trolli.
T'ey trying catch me writing dirty... |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.06.24 09:03:00 -
[305]
I think that the most interesting part of the large Arty problem is that is the result of intentional changes to game mechanics. The guns themselves are an issue certainly but so much has changed since I started playing Eve 2 years ago it's not really the same game anymore.
Everything that made Minimatar battleships feared on the battlefield with the exception of alpha was essentially stripped away piece by piece, usually not because of the Minnie ships in question either.
But then again, such is the problem with much of the game. It's been rebuilt and rebalanced in drastic ways from what it was when I started and there are concepts that seem hilarious to me when one of the old timers chooses to regale us with stories of the "good ole days".
At this point, so much of the game is truly broken in my view that it resembles an end stage game of Jenga. Perhaps its time to start considering Eve Online 2, and rebuild the game from scratch (as long as I get to keep my character). . .
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Siddy
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.06.24 09:07:00 -
[306]
Edited by: Siddy on 24/06/2008 09:07:28
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I think that the most interesting part of the large Arty problem is that is the result of intentional changes to game mechanics. The guns themselves are an issue certainly but so much has changed since I started playing Eve 2 years ago it's not really the same game anymore.
Everything that made Minimatar battleships feared on the battlefield with the exception of alpha was essentially stripped away piece by piece, usually not because of the Minnie ships in question either.
But then again, such is the problem with much of the game. It's been rebuilt and rebalanced in drastic ways from what it was when I started and there are concepts that seem hilarious to me when one of the old timers chooses to regale us with stories of the "good ole days".
At this point, so much of the game is truly broken in my view that it resembles an end stage game of Jenga. Perhaps its time to start considering Eve Online 2, and rebuild the game from scratch (as long as I get to keep my character). . .
Actualy, i consider EVE more balanced that it was 2 or 4 years ago, its just 4 years ago people didint know math, EVE was much more fun.
-------------
T'ey see me t'Rollin,
t'ey hatin, pa'trolli.
T'ey trying catch me writing dirty... |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 12:57:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Siddy
Edited by: Siddy on 24/06/2008 09:07:28
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I think that the most interesting part of the large Arty problem is that is the result of intentional changes to game mechanics. The guns themselves are an issue certainly but so much has changed since I started playing Eve 2 years ago it's not really the same game anymore.
Everything that made Minimatar battleships feared on the battlefield with the exception of alpha was essentially stripped away piece by piece, usually not because of the Minnie ships in question either.
But then again, such is the problem with much of the game. It's been rebuilt and rebalanced in drastic ways from what it was when I started and there are concepts that seem hilarious to me when one of the old timers chooses to regale us with stories of the "good ole days".
At this point, so much of the game is truly broken in my view that it resembles an end stage game of Jenga. Perhaps its time to start considering Eve Online 2, and rebuild the game from scratch (as long as I get to keep my character). . .
Actualy, i consider EVE more balanced that it was 2 or 4 years ago, its just 4 years ago people didint know math, EVE was much more fun.
Shouldn't we make every single race so diffrent that it is almost impossible to see if it is balanced? It would be also totally impossible to calculate if it would be balanced or not. Hmmmm... that is a good tip for CCP btw... (I hope you guys see this)
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Lrrp
Drahathinar Tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.24 13:52:00 -
[308]
For Eve to be truly balanced, there would only be one ship, one race and no skills.
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Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.24 13:55:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Lrrp
For Eve to be truly balanced, there would only be one ship, one race and no skills.
Hehehe, you are quiet right there...
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Trojanman190
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 14:00:00 -
[310]
As the game progresses it seems the races slowly become closer and closer and closer. While it's not ok... it does work better with the other three. The whole concept of the minmatar race was to be kind of wierd... to do a bit of everything. 'Everything' has gotten smaller and smaller and we just aren't good at the same things the other races are. Everyone else is gank and passive tank these days... we need to be as well. Arty needs more range and dps. Acs need more range and dps [that falloff stuff is crap]. And honestly, if our guns have to take cap to do it I wont mind.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.06.24 16:52:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/06/2008 16:53:35
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Oh I can think of about a thousand of them. From splash damage,
From slpash damage
Splash damage
Splash
Yes, you are true brainstormer, CCP shuld hire you for additional LuLz department, i havent laught so good in a while.
/edit, and if this game had a averange customer lifespan of a WoW, IE 6 months.
This game whuld died a looooong time ago, so 5 year old veterans kept this game afloat untill CCP culd stand tall and get the show going.
CCP allredy addet hig alpha wepons in game, called bombs and DDD.
TO BAD YOU CANT USE EM EM IN EMPIRE!
regardles, current HP buffer system can easily survive a 1400mm alpha buff. Since Abaddon do same alpha than Tempest or mael.
Man, you should REALLY work on your writing skills. It is almost impossible to deduce what you are trying to talk about.
You can't use splash damage in high sec. So what? If you had especial artillery ammo with splash damage that would be one way to do exactly what you were asking. It would be VERY different from other weapon types.
You are so limited you think the ONLY way to make artillery different is to increase its alpha, because to you this game is about damage and armor. A dumbified version of Eve like you yourself would say.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Trojanman190
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 17:08:00 -
[312]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 24/06/2008 17:09:06
Fer serious cut the personal attacks. If we want a dev to give this a look at everyone needs to just calm down and play nice.
This thread has devolved greatly and it needs to get back on track.
That not directed at anyone in particular. This is an important issue and we don't want a dev skipping this thread because it has gotten flamish.
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Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:10:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Jalif on 24/06/2008 17:10:56
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/06/2008 16:53:35
Originally by: Siddy
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Oh I can think of about a thousand of them. From splash damage,
From slpash damage
Splash damage
Splash
Yes, you are true brainstormer, CCP shuld hire you for additional LuLz department, i havent laught so good in a while.
/edit, and if this game had a averange customer lifespan of a WoW, IE 6 months.
This game whuld died a looooong time ago, so 5 year old veterans kept this game afloat untill CCP culd stand tall and get the show going.
CCP allredy addet hig alpha wepons in game, called bombs and DDD.
TO BAD YOU CANT USE EM EM IN EMPIRE!
regardles, current HP buffer system can easily survive a 1400mm alpha buff. Since Abaddon do same alpha than Tempest or mael.
Man, you should REALLY work on your writing skills. It is almost impossible to deduce what you are trying to talk about.
You can't use splash damage in high sec. So what? If you had especial artillery ammo with splash damage that would be one way to do exactly what you were asking. It would be VERY different from other weapon types.
You are so limited you think the ONLY way to make artillery different is to increase its alpha, because to you this game is about damage and armor. A dumbified version of Eve like you yourself would say.
YOu are now attacking a person directly without even talking about arties. Please. Stop This. This topic was going the right way, don't screw it up people.
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.06.24 17:18:00 -
[314]
Splash damage would be neat, but wouldn't exactly be all that useful in most situations. Considering it would be situational at best, it wouldn't do a thing to fix the general problems plaguing artillery, but instead would just create a new ammo type. I think it's unlikely that CCP will give artillery a sufficient alpha boost (if that's the route they choose for buffing artillery), but I wouldn't rule it out altogether. At the very least, I hope the frequency of these threads is at least attracting some CCP eyes to the many problems facing artillery. I'd love a unique solution, but at this point I'd probably settle for just a flat boost, whether it makes turret ships homogeneous or not.
It would definitely help though if people weren't constantly attacking each other in these threads, haha. Particularly attacks on grammar and the like are silly and add absolutely nothing to the discussion, i.e.
Quote:
Man, you should REALLY work on your writing skills.
I could go through the forums and be a ***** in just about every post by nitpicking people's writing, but considering the international playerbase this game has and considering how pointless it is to critique writing on the interwebz, I don't.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.06.24 18:15:00 -
[315]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/06/2008 18:17:39
Originally by: Jalif
YOu are now attacking a person directly without even talking about arties. Please. Stop This. This topic was going the right way, don't screw it up people.
If I hurt your sensibilities this much, I advise you to hide your head under the ground and to stay out of the bad mean forums.
I am giving Siddy the same consideration he gave many people in this thread, he has no right whatsoever of complaining. And you have even less so.
Moreover I am talking about the subject at hand. If I choose to do so while at the same time exposing the stupidity of the OP, that is my prerrogative.
Originally by: Boz Well
I could go through the forums and be a ***** in just about every post by nitpicking people's writing, but considering the international playerbase this game has and considering how pointless it is to critique writing on the interwebz, I don't.
When the problem are simple mispellings I have no problem with it. But when the person text is unreadable because of logical inconsistences it is a problem.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 18:28:00 -
[316]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/06/2008 18:17:39
Originally by: Jalif
YOu are now attacking a person directly without even talking about arties. Please. Stop This. This topic was going the right way, don't screw it up people.
If I hurt your sensibilities this much, I advise you to hide your head under the ground and to stay out of the bad mean forums.
I am giving Siddy the same consideration he gave many people in this thread, he has no right whatsoever of complaining. And you have even less so.
Moreover I am talking about the subject at hand. If I choose to do so while at the same time exposing the stupidity of the OP, that is my prerrogative.
On the First, you are now attacking me personally. You Really should stop now
And you have even less so? WTF? I am less worth then Siddy? You are now going way to far.
Stupidity of the OP? That is a straight personal attack against Siddy....
About the text that Siddy wrote. Ok, it was unclear. Why didn't you ask normal like any person would if you could rewrite it & make it more clear in a nice way?
Anyway, I reported you.
Thx for making topic from good to bad.
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 18:51:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Jalif
Anyway, I reported you.
Thx for making topic from good to bad.
TBFH Jalif, this entire thread is 10 / 12 pages of incoherent flaming. There are dozens of more constructive artillery threads that don't have the absurd number of personal attacks. Maybe if you're really concerned about artillery, you should bump one of those.
Originally by: "this thread, summarized"
"I think X!"
"Well, sure, but X implies Y."
"SCREW U STOOPID! X IS BETTER UR SO STUPIDDDD!!! I AM A PVP GOD!"
"Uh, F U. X => Y. Maybe we could do A, because A => B but not Y."
"Who cares about Y!!? X!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE A SI STOOPD! UR STUPID NOOB!"
...
<12 pages later>
"YOU STUPID PEOPLE X IS THE ONLY THING THAT'S ACCEPTABEL STUUUPID! NEWBSSSS5!!!qone"
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:11:00 -
[318]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Jalif
Anyway, I reported you.
Thx for making topic from good to bad.
TBFH Jalif, this entire thread is 10 / 12 pages of incoherent flaming. There are dozens of more constructive artillery threads that don't have the absurd number of personal attacks. Maybe if you're really concerned about artillery, you should bump one of those.
Originally by: "this thread, summarized"
"I think X!"
"Well, sure, but X implies Y."
"SCREW U STOOPID! X IS BETTER UR SO STUPIDDDD!!! I AM A PVP GOD!"
"Uh, F U. X => Y. Maybe we could do A, because A => B but not Y."
"Who cares about Y!!? X!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE A SI STOOPD! UR STUPID NOOB!"
...
<12 pages later>
"YOU STUPID PEOPLE X IS THE ONLY THING THAT'S ACCEPTABEL STUUUPID! NEWBSSSS5!!!qone"
-Liang
First of all, that is not allowed by the rules. Me as a costumer has also to follow easy rules & not make the forums a mess.
If you didn't notice already - There is an other topic in SHIPS & Modules that I am contrubing at & it is going better then I would ever dream.
Second. Just check the above, modernator got involved because that person was attacking me personally and others.
Third, I am trying my best ever to make a good discussion.
Forth, instead of people critizing now on this treat how awful it is now? Why don't you try to contribute to make a good topic of it again?
Questions? Were were we actually?
Yes, as far as I can see we began totally wrong after post: 181
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=769522&page=7#181
Lets talk from there further PLEASE?
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:27:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
A Very Long Post that Saietor made
Nice reply Saietor.
I do agree that what you said there. Specially that minmatar will probably always suck in fleet fight as they are becuase they are more specialized in small gang warfare.
What Siddy suggested is atleast a beginning toward the right direction. Making little steps to the right direction is better then 1 single fix & it blows everybody on the face & before you know you buffed minmatar to much.
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Trojanman190
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:28:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 24/06/2008 19:30:23
I don't like thinking that we will "always suck in a fleet fight." I don't want to be the best but I don't want to lol at how inferior I am in one. Being decent or not so far behind would be ok.
Basically suck is to strong a word I thinks. Right now we suck. We need a little boost so that training another race to perform adequately in fleet isnt such a juicy option. [35 days to bs V plus 70+ for the large turrets should never be a juicy option]
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.06.24 19:32:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Personal attacks are not permitted on the forums. ~Saint
Lolzowned. At least we see someone at CCP is reading this thread. 
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Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:37:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Edited by: Trojanman190 on 24/06/2008 19:30:23
I don't like thinking that we will "always suck in a fleet fight." I don't want to be the best but I don't want to lol at how inferior I am in one. Being decent or not so far behind would be ok.
Basically suck is to strong a word I thinks. Right now we suck. We need a little boost so that training another race to perform adequately in fleet isnt such a juicy option. [35 days to bs V plus 70+ for the large turrets should never be a juicy option]
Yeah, sorry for wrong use of words. But yeah, less effective would be a better sentance. Even if we will be the worst DPS but with a resonable Alpha wouldn't make us bad snipers but atleast we would do something. This was a good notice from the guy in post 181 (who I forgot the game)
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:37:00 -
[323]
Quote:
And you have even less so? WTF? I am less worth then Siddy? You are now going way to far.
I am saying that regarding this topic, your contribution is inexistent.
Quote:
About the text that Siddy wrote. Ok, it was unclear. Why didn't you ask normal like any person would if you could rewrite it & make it more clear in a nice way?
I did. I warned him taht he needed to improve his text. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
Anyway, I reported you.
Thx for making topic from good to bad.
And guess what. I will stay here. Btw, I reported you too.
Regards,
Etho
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:46:00 -
[324]
We just began well & then you show up... Well, I am leaving as I learned not to pay attention to bullies.
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Trojanman190
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:47:00 -
[325]
Now that everyone has reported everyone else lets just get back to talking about 1400mm cannons.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.06.24 19:47:00 -
[326]
Good ridance 
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Trojanman190
D00M.
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:49:00 -
[327]
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Good ridance
I'm not sure how that statement helped the discussion. You might have just proven his point.
Anyways this thread is long dead. Sad.
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Etho Demerzel
Holy Clan of the Cone
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 19:52:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Trojanman190
Originally by: Etho Demerzel
Good ridance
I'm not sure how that statement helped the discussion. You might have just proven his point.
Anyways this thread is long dead. Sad.
Truth is, the matter has already been discussed ad nauseum. Nobody in this or any other thread about this subject has given any original output for a long time.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
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Posted - 2008.06.24 21:41:00 -
[329]
Cleaned.
Please continue posting on-topic and without resorting to the flames earlier in the thread.
Mitnal
Community Representative
CCP Games, EVE Online
Email / Netfang |
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.06.24 22:01:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Jalif
Yeah, sorry for wrong use of words. But yeah, less effective would be a better sentance. Even if we will be the worst DPS but with a resonable Alpha wouldn't make us bad snipers but atleast we would do something. This was a good notice from the guy in post 181 (who I forgot the game)
Well, it wouldn't make you a bad sniper - no. It would make you less effective in fleets and PVE. Fleets and PVE in their current form rely almost entirely on Range, DPS and EHP/Tank.
Increasing alpha strike/lowering ROF would force more damage to be lost to "overstriking" (thus lowering effective DPS). The lower ROF will mean that you can't refire as quickly as you can now (and thus will have a greater amount of damage per killmail, but miss being on many more killmails).
PVE might actually not be a nerf, though. Mostly, that will come from the DPS gain of not spending ridiculous amounts of time reloading... but it's possible that it will allow for the regular use of faction projectile ammo in missions.
TBH, I think I may be done with large scale fleets indefinitely, and as I said, PVE'ing with artillery is like watching paint dry (even with faction mods and almost perfect gunnery)... so "boost" away. It'll help my gankmobiles. :P
Also, please boost alpha on medium arties while you're at it... heh.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
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