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AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:34:00 - [31] I stoped being scared of artilery the day revalations went live. The unneeded HP boost combined with the T2 ammo nerf hit this weapon system the hardest. I still get a chill from that RA pest that insta poped a blackbird of mine from 190km out in C-J.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Siddy As a conclusion, Liang, come up with solution that dont homogenise 1400mm's and i will take you more seriosly. Because we, minmatar tempest pilots are something with history and lots of lulz from the past. Now it is like hitting stuff with wet sponages, when i sit in my 1400mm tempest. I'm not saying it isn't. Quote: We didint take 1400mm's because of the DPS, we want our alpha! Period. That's the problem - you only want alpha strike. No other suggested solution will do. IMO (most likely to least likely arty boosts): - Clip size - Tracking - Damage mod (slight) - ROF decrease (slight) - Damage mod (large) & ROF increase (slight) And you want: - Damage mod (HUGE) & ROF increase (large) I'm not saying that increasing alpha by itself would be bad (because it'd be honking fantastic), but I am saying that lowering ROF is going to hurt. :) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:39:00 - [33] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 09:39:56 Originally by: Siddy Liang, just to make it clear. No gun, no RoF, no Locktime, no FC can do a jack abaut 100 vs 100++ fight mechanics. In that envoirment, best gun is that wich dont need to reload. Anything else is semantics. Its lag envoirment. Its like black hole, only its brown. It bends the laws of EVE and physics. And its not basis on the balance and fixing a classical minmatar gun that had Best alpha in game. I have very recently participated in a 100v100 carrier heavy fleet fight that had almost no lag (though there was rather significant load time on the grid). It really is about the lock time and time to switch targets in a fleet of that size. I've very recently participated in 150v250-300's too, and even a 60 vs 450 (we got ***ed). Both of these had lag. ;-) -Liang Ed: and by very recently, I mean today*. Ed Ed: Also, I'm going to bed. -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Siddy Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:45:00 - [34] Edited by: Siddy on 12/05/2008 09:46:17 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 09:39:56 Originally by: Siddy Liang, just to make it clear. No gun, no RoF, no Locktime, no FC can do a jack abaut 100 vs 100++ fight mechanics. In that envoirment, best gun is that wich dont need to reload. Anything else is semantics. Its lag envoirment. Its like black hole, only its brown. It bends the laws of EVE and physics. And its not basis on the balance and fixing a classical minmatar gun that had Best alpha in game. I have very recently participated in a 100v100 carrier heavy fleet fight that had almost no lag (though there was rather significant load time on the grid). It really is about the lock time and time to switch targets in a fleet of that size. I've very recently participated in 150v250-300's too, and even a 60 vs 450 (we got ***ed). Both of these had lag. ;-) -Liang Ed: and by very recently, I mean today*. Ed Ed: Also, I'm going to bed. so what you say, is that there is no constants when it comes to things that include 200+ peoples in one grid? disregard this, i suck dongs.
Cilppiz Minmatar FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.12 09:51:00 - [35] Since I gained skills to use t2 large artilleries couple years ago, I cant recall any changes on gameplay or "balance" that would have been good for arties... I wont say if the same thing is true with Rails and Beams also due the fact that I havent used em enough to be entitled with opinion. Anycase, I would gladly trade some ROF to bigger alpha strike even if it ment loosing some DPS in the name of "you shall only nerf matars" and to keep rest of the 3 races happy. Or if real aplha is too much to ask, just do something with em because now they are just mediocre at midranges (80-150km) and even worse on other ranges.
Trefnis Minmatar R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Liang Nuren IMO (most likely to least likely arty boosts): - Clip size - Tracking - Damage mod (slight) - ROF decrease (slight) - Damage mod (large) & ROF increase (slight) -Liang And how is that not making them rails with no cap and different name ??
Siddy Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:07:00 - [37] Edited by: Siddy on 12/05/2008 10:06:53 Originally by: Trefnis Originally by: Liang Nuren IMO (most likely to least likely arty boosts): - Clip size - Tracking - Damage mod (slight) - ROF decrease (slight) - Damage mod (large) & ROF increase (slight) -Liang And how is that not making them rails with no cap and different name ?? I belive the Blod texst in that quote is only thing that will not make the arties more like rails. Yes, anything else will change them to nothing more than sub par rails... Unless you want to give arties more DPS than rails, wich whuld mean, rails become now sub par arties
Lt Angus Caldari Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:32:00 - [38] Half rate of fire, double damage mod Phhhwooorrr Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:36:00 - [39] Imo it'd be nice to have them at least comparable to rails. I don't so much mind slowing them down a bit more to increase their alpha and their overall DPS as well (I think overall DPS needs a boost regardless). The problem is now they're hell to fit and inferior in every single way to other weapons. Perhaps ease up the fitting on large arty in general, increase dps a bit on both 1200's and 1400's, slow the 1400's down but boost damage to make the alpha more noticeable (and increase the DPS slightly as well). I think that'd at least give them some more character/personality, i.e. they'd feel different from rails, especially a slower-firing harder-hitting 1400mm cannon, while still making them more useful (i.e. at least comparable to other weapons) overall. I'd love to dust off my minmatar battleships, heh, since I'm best skilled to fly those. In the meantime though, I am stuck with this ugly Raven.
Gorjer Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:50:00 - [40] I think Siddy's idea has you beat mate. However twice the damage mod is abit ott. Also Liang, if you've popped a BS in 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds (due to high alpha) the enemy has 15 seconds less damage from that BS. (if you get me, poorly worded!) Rinse and repeat and you've got ureself an extremely effective fleet BS.... maybe too effective! i'd hate to see the insta-popping pest of old. Gorjy
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 10:54:00 - [41] Liang every situation you talk about is 100 v 100 where yes nearly all primaries will be or atleast should be popped, but what about smaller fleets, the higher alpha would be a massive bonus for smaller fleets trying to break remote rep tanks and as for not using quake have you ever been in a smallish fleet and fought upclose? its quite fun and i personaly would probably use some republic fleet fusion instead but close range ammo with huge alpha is kickass if used properly and gives another tatical option to fleet commanders.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.12 12:12:00 - [42] As much as I love the idea, I really doubt that CCP would even consider it. This point was made clearly when CCP was talking about boosting HPs on both ships and plates. I don't think CCP wants fights over quickly. So we're stuck with a good idea that CCP will never implement (Siddy's) and a good solution (Liang's) that will destroy the racial flavor of artillery that CCP might implement. I completely agree that Artillery needs work, and not just the 1400's, the 720's and 280's need the same boost. Increasing clip size isn't enough (though this will most likely be CCP's solution). And while I completely love Siddy's idea, I doubt we'll ever see it.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 14:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Gorjer Also Liang, if you've popped a BS in 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds (due to high alpha) the enemy has 15 seconds less damage from that BS. (if you get me, poorly worded!) You'd be surprised. There's a really long thread that I linked in the beginning of this thread... read it. Quote: Rinse and repeat and you've got ureself an extremely effective fleet BS.... maybe too effective! i'd hate to see the insta-popping pest of old. That's the thing. The instapopping pest of old has nothing to do with modern fleets. Once the fleet size becomes sufficiently large, alpha strike doesn't matter (and ROF matters alot). Once it becomes sufficiently small, DPS is all that matters. Either way alpha strike isn't as important as it makes you feel. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:09:00 - [44] Originally by: Prez21 Liang every situation you talk about is 100 v 100 where yes nearly all primaries will be or atleast should be popped, but what about smaller fleets, the higher alpha would be a massive bonus for smaller fleets trying to break remote rep tanks and as for not using quake have you ever been in a smallish fleet and fought upclose? its quite fun and i personaly would probably use some republic fleet fusion instead but close range ammo with huge alpha is kickass if used properly and gives another tatical option to fleet commanders. This is a really intelligent post. High alpha strike does provide advantages in breaking logistics tanks, and also in breaking passive Drakes. After the upcoming nano nerf, logistics tanks may become "The Standard". Increasing alpha strike and lowering DPS is not really something that I'd say is a great idea. Increasing alpha strike alone is a great idea. It's been repeatedly screamed about by the other races. Increasing clip size and tracking reduces the frustration of using artillery, and increases the viability of shooting when fully aligned. Now, as for smaller fleets up close - no. I'd say your FC is pure fail if he brings your untanked fleet BS's within 30-40km of the enemy fleet. Just an FYI, we tried bringing our untanked fleet BS's within 40km of the enemy fleet last night. We lost 40+ fleet BS's. Artillery (at present) has exactly one use: sniping. If you wanted close range battleships, bring autocannons. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 15:11:00 - [45] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 15:11:22 Originally by: Veryez So we're stuck with a good idea that CCP will never implement (Siddy's) Lowering overall DPS is a nerf, no matter how you look at it. Quote: and a good solution (Liang's) that will destroy the racial flavor of artillery that CCP might implement. Sure, because I'm totally suggesting that we half the alpha strike and double the ROF with a bigger clip size. Quote: And while I completely love Siddy's idea, I doubt we'll ever see it. I would like Siddy's idea if it didn't involve destroying the ship for fleet work. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.05.12 16:55:00 - [46] Edited by: HankMurphy on 12/05/2008 17:03:56 you two should stfu and realize you each have valid points for different situations. the point is arty is a borked and from a person w/ L art spec V, i'd love to have a reason to actually get inside a tempest again. my 2cents, up the damage modifier (alpha) and increase the clip size 20-25%, leave everything else alone ------------------------------ of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most
Pesadel0 Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:03:00 - [47] They should up the alfa strike i don¦t give a *** about other stuff,minmatar are all about alfa nothing more nothing less. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Warlord Cybrid	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:20:00 - [48] you could always destroy damage calculations by adding a simple ship bonus... Tempest: 5% bonus per level of shooting a Wrecking shot with artillery. :P lets break eve some more! cheers
Bazman Caldari Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 17:25:00 - [49] Siddy for internet king Spot on with 1400mm Arties, they need to be changed slightly to remain a competitive gun on their respective ships. Higher damage mod and decreased ROF is the way to go. -----
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:25:00 - [50] Meh, if the "Consensus" is to destroy arties for fleet work, then who am I to stand in the way. At least I'll look cool on gate ganks. :) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Nerkal	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:31:00 - [51] Edited by: Nerkal on 12/05/2008 18:31:39
karrak Muchacho's	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:32:00 - [52] I was gonna write something constructive but.. Give up allready, the game has evolved so much since the glory days(or should i call it chain nerfed)making artys viable and fun again would require changes far beyond the weapon and the platform its used on. Innstead dig up some old pvp vids and remember when this game was great. Il go back to my corner and cry now, cheers
Khai D'mentus Homo Victor	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:42:00 - [53] All i see is allot of cat and mouse here.. haven't u guys learned it yet. CCP wants math and graphs to show the downs and ups.. on a side note.. i would like to see the 1400 pest revived which is why i post, nothing else.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 18:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Khai D'mentus All i see is allot of cat and mouse here.. haven't u guys learned it yet. CCP wants math and graphs to show the downs and ups.. on a side note.. i would like to see the 1400 pest revived which is why i post, nothing else. You know that thread that I linked on the first page? The math/graphs are there. HF. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 19:36:00 - [55] Buff alpha, buff DPS, give them better tracking. Simply put, put them on par with the other races long range weapons. Reduce powergrid; Balance ships accordingly. Right now whatever ship has the powergrid to fit heavy art is gonna fit autocannons instead and use the powergrid intended for artillery for heavy neuts\nos. Fixing the powergrid (as a starter) would make it easier to maintain balance in the long run. A lot of people really wish to use the Vargur, it needs heavy artillery, or even better cruise missiles. To be worth using.
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Gorjer Also Liang, if you've popped a BS in 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds (due to high alpha) the enemy has 15 seconds less damage from that BS. (if you get me, poorly worded!) Rinse and repeat and you've got ureself an extremely effective fleet BS.... maybe too effective! i'd hate to see the insta-popping pest of old. The problem with that statement is that once you get above a certain 'critical mass' in terms of fleet size, alpha strike becomes meaningless because your low-alpha weapons (Rails, Lasers) will kill your targets in one salvo just as effectively as high-alpha weapons (Arties). But the real killer is that while your Arties are waiting to shoot again after your fleet popped the Primary, it's entirely possible that Rails and Lasers will have already killed the Secondary and moved on to the Tertiary before they can even shoot again. So in a large fleet, your high-alpha, low RoF weapon just missed out on an entire target because it couldn't shoot fast enough which absolutely murders your effective DPS. This is why Arties are horrible in large fleets; they can't keep up with the pace at which targets go down. For large enough fleets, it really is all about how quickly you can apply damage to multiple targets in quick succession, and that means higher RoF and lower alpha. In smaller gangs, ones not large enough to one-salvo your targets with high RoF weapons, there is still value to having a high alpha-strike weapon. The smaller your gang, the bigger the benefit until you reach a small enough fleet size that you cannot insta-pop anything. As such, any change that increases the damage and reduces the RoF of Arties will severely limit their usefulness in large fleet fights whilst improving their performance in smaller gangs. While this may synch up with their 'racial flavor' (i.e. small gangs performing lightning strikes and getting out), I don't know if it's worth so greatly reducing their effectivness in large fleets. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren In the end, what they're saying was what made Artillery what it was, was intentionally removed from the game by CCP. Artillery's role was redefined, whether they (or I) like it or not. Exactly. In order for Artillery to have the same fearsome Alpha strike capability that people remember, it would have to have a Damage mod buff and RoF nerf of the same magnitude as the HP buff from Revelations. I can't imagine that happening any time soon. Alpha is still useful, don't get me wrong, but it is not as useful as it used to be, nor is it particularly useful for large fleet fights. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Hrin Minmatar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:56:00 - [58] I think a point is that Artillery is the least desirable of the long range weapon systems and needs to be boosted to be competitive, but it must maintain its own flavor. The "alpha" was a balancing point for artillery. Since alphas were nerfed by the HP boost of 2007, artillery was also nerfed. To be competitive, it needs an increase in dps. To maintain its own flavor it needs....?
Siddy Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:56:00 - [59] Frack it! ill crunch you some numbers and define it! Liang got no clue of right usage and aplication of alpha damage, it seems! No'r he understand how it works in fleets! BRB, making "numbers"
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 20:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Siddy Frack it! ill crunch you some numbers and define it! Liang got no clue of right usage and aplication of alpha damage, it seems! No'r he understand how it works in fleets! BRB, making "numbers" Make sure you read the thread I linked in my first post here. :) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.

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