Originally by: Zeba

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I say increase the alpha damage and decrease the DPS. Arty should be for fleet fights were the mass alpha strike rules all.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That's a really tough question. There's several things that make for the racial flavor of Arties. I've ordered them roughly as I consider them "paired":

+ Capless
- Smaller ship capacitors

+ High alpha
- Low ROF

+ Powerful (ROF) or double damage bonuses to ships
- Generically lower number of turrets

+ "Variable damage types"
- Slightly lower DPS

+ Higher falloff
- Lower optimal

- Low clip size
- Worst tracking (coming from the most "mobile" ships no less!)

Other things that are worth considering:
- Minnie BS's are generically "worse" than other BS's (and this is fine, it's racial flavor. Just don't ask for your race to pwn cruiser combat too.)
- The Tempest specifically is hurting for a role. It's got a double damage bonus, and even ganked out it can't keep up these days.
- The Phoon is wtf-skill-intensive.
+ Minnie BS's are faster than most other battleships, and have better agility.

So it seems to me that increasing the alpha strike isn't really going to be particularly useful, unless you're sniping haulers in lowsec.

Decreasing the ROF will simply mean that it's easier to get noticeably better DPS out of it. See the passive tanked drakes for the difference that even a small difference can make.

Falloff is slightly less powerful than optimal (because of reduced damage), but increasing the optimal range doesn't really fit in with the Minmatar ethos.

So I'm going to have to go with increasing the clip size (a very non-direct DPS boost - and certainly far less annoying for me!), and increase the tracking on Artillery to make them more "skirmish" minded.

I'd probably drop one of the utility highs on the Tempest to be a low.

-Liang

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Originally by: Blake Abadon, Morsus Mihi

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insirgency caused the turn arround in the war against bob, when they forced the MM capital fleet to move back to defend their homeland.

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Originally by: Zeba

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I say increase the alpha damage and decrease the DPS. Arty should be for fleet fights were the mass alpha strike rules all.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Noobs, stay away, and jerk off with your EFT before you come and say anything abaut alpha to me. >__>

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 06:00:06

Originally by: Siddy

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Noobs, stay away, and jerk off with your EFT before you come and say anything abaut alpha to me. >__>

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I can't decide if that was directed to me.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Do you consider yourself a noob and jerk of to EFT?

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Futuremore

Increasing Damage mod, and decreasing rof will solve the low ammo hold size on 1400mm's

Two birds with one stone

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Do you consider yourself a noob and jerk of to EFT?

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Insults rarely have to do with reality.

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Futuremore

Increasing Damage mod, and decreasing rof will solve the low ammo hold size on 1400mm's

Two birds with one stone

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It would be a horrendous nerf to fleet usage of all arty ships. Like I said, it's DPS@150-165km / EHP that matters.

Lowering ROF would not help DPS (even if you increased the damage mod proportionately, gyros would throw it back out of whack again).

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Since when people fitted 1400mm's for DPS?

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As it stands now, 1400mm's tempest/mael got nothing to justify them over Tachbaddon or railrokh in fleet.

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In fleet, lag is bigger factor than anything DPS might ever cause. To reload in fleet is usualy to wait good 1 minute.

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For fleets, i chose wepons that dont need to be reloadet constantly or at all. In other words, i take out my rokh.

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Hehe it is not often you can read something about minmatar from a guy that knows what he is talking about :)

I agree with what you said, dps was never our thing, it was alpha.
Back in the days it did matter, you could pop bb in one volley, a hac if you were lucky,
but most important you could compete with other bs, 2x or 3x pest were SCARY for enything.

Now since then we got 2x hp buff, plates buff, trimarks and other rigs, stacking penalty and after that ammo nerf. It all ended in projs being subpar in enything bar cap use.

I just hope something will be done about it.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That was then. This is now. I'm dealing from a "now" perspective.

You can have your precious "alpha" - but I guarantee they aren't going to boost alpha strikes enough to matter - otherwise, you just elimited the HP boost.

-Liang

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Originally by: Trefnis

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For now even after sticking to matari for 2.5y and skills like large spec V i trained gallente as they are simply better at everything, if you just give dps it will turn to any other weapon and as i said you can have then simply by training them.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, i fail to see your point.

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you say, that projectiles are sup bar to everything else in fleet, yet doing this change will make them even more sup par.

how?

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Im beginnig to have this feeling, that you havent attendet many fleet fights.

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Usualy you are lucky if you get 2 full volly's out there. When 30+ BS pund one target.

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i can ashure you, that even with the changes like these, that will increase the damage yet shaft RoF, you are redy to shoot at nexst target before you get lock on the thing. Remeber, sensorboosters dont work like old anymore.

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The 1400mms needs to stand out, as now they are below medicore in everything exept cap usage.

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Making them in "yet another cookiecutter" wepon, like rails and tachs, is not my idea of EVE.

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I want my 1400mms slam 3000 hits!

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Originally by: Siddy

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Anyhow, i feel that you havent witnesed the fleet that got 80+% of its hittingpower made form tempest's, have you? G once brought that to us, was impressive. (one fo the few impressive things G ever did actualy )

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i dont see any "small" changes in 1400mms that can be done so that wepon will be unique, and not just some version of tacyons and rails wilth no cap and small clip size.

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You say, you want to make it competetive by homogenising 1400mm's.

I say, i wana make 1400mm's difrent and fufill role, that is now only done by torp ravens at close range.

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Originally by: Prez21

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I remember when i was just starting out in eve and was living around molden heath and i flew with a guy who always flew around solo in a pest with artys, and the amount of kills he got was unbelievable due to his high alpha and any bs he came across usualy died or ran away after seeing the first volley of dmg hit there ship.

I completely agree with siddy, at the minute with the pest the alpha isnt great and the rof is poor, i would gladly take a little hit to rof to have a massive alpha strike like the 1400s are supposed to give out, but unforunatly i dont think ccp will make the changes and the pest will just fade into the background.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Prez21

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I remember when i was just starting out in eve and was living around molden heath and i flew with a guy who always flew around solo in a pest with artys, and the amount of kills he got was unbelievable due to his high alpha and any bs he came across usualy died or ran away after seeing the first volley of dmg hit there ship.

I completely agree with siddy, at the minute with the pest the alpha isnt great and the rof is poor, i would gladly take a little hit to rof to have a massive alpha strike like the 1400s are supposed to give out, but unforunatly i dont think ccp will make the changes and the pest will just fade into the background.

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Yeah, back in the days where you could two-volley an apoc or single volley a cruiser. You're looking at thirty to fourty thousand damage alpha strikes from a single Tempest/Maelstrom to bring those days back.

You're right, I don't think CCP will do that.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Prez21

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I remember when i was just starting out in eve and was living around molden heath and i flew with a guy who always flew around solo in a pest with artys, and the amount of kills he got was unbelievable due to his high alpha and any bs he came across usualy died or ran away after seeing the first volley of dmg hit there ship.

I completely agree with siddy, at the minute with the pest the alpha isnt great and the rof is poor, i would gladly take a little hit to rof to have a massive alpha strike like the 1400s are supposed to give out, but unforunatly i dont think ccp will make the changes and the pest will just fade into the background.

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Yeah, back in the days where you could two-volley an apoc or single volley a cruiser. You're looking at thirty to fourty thousand damage alpha strikes from a single Tempest/Maelstrom to bring those days back.

You're right, I don't think CCP will do that.

-Liang

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Not sure if you fly pest or not and if so for how long.
atm with all skill lvl V and imps =3% to all guns and to large ones i put around 1300+ hits with quake ammo, so upping it to 2-3k or something is not that unrealistic.

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you keep telling us we are stick in the past, i say if you just up tracking, clip size, dmg you will get rails with less dmg and no cap use, like wtf is that.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Are you seriously saying that you use quake?!

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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you keep telling us we are stick in the past, i say if you just up tracking, clip size, dmg you will get rails with less dmg and no cap use, like wtf is that.

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Wait, you'd get Artillery, as it has been defined since the HP boost. Even now the Tempest has about twice the alpha strike and 85% of the DPS a sniperthron does. Yeah, they're totally rails.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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I am contending that that does not matter today.

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Increasing clip size allows for artillery to maintain what they have now and not be incredibly frustrating to use. That's it.

Increasing tracking (not to be best, but merely some) allows the weapons to meld better with Matari tactics and strategies.

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Just an FYI, but torp ravens top out at about 900 damage/hit - and that's with fairly substantial sig radius/explo velocity penalties. You may also have forgotten that torps are a high rof, high dps system these days.

3k shots would be rather quite alot more, with the Tempest weighing in at an 18k alpha strike, and the Maelstrom at 20k. It would completely redefine the role of artillery to be in the realm of low sec gatecamps.

I know for damn sure that I'd have 5 tempests sitting 170km off the gate alpha striking everything - and warping out the moment local got above 8.... but I'd never again fly one in a fleet.

You keep raving about these glory days of artillery being really good, but you're missing the boat for modern combat.

-Liang

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Yes if im in a fleet fit pest and we get to jump on other bs and i know i have ammar to get through their shields then there is nothing better that quake on pure plates fit.

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Read the bolded part, i said you want them to become rails not that they are rails atm.

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and give your matari alt name to prove you have any credibiility as i start to loose faith in that.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Yeah, back in the days where you could two-volley an apoc or single volley a cruiser. You're looking at thirty to fourty thousand damage alpha strikes from a single Tempest/Maelstrom to bring those days back.

You're right, I don't think CCP will do that.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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They would become nothing like rails. Learn to read.

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Originally by: Siddy

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As a conclusion, Liang, come up with solution that dont homogenise 1400mm's and i will take you more seriosly. Because we, minmatar tempest pilots are something with history and lots of lulz from the past. Now it is like hitting stuff with wet sponages, when i sit in my 1400mm tempest.

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We didint take 1400mm's because of the DPS, we want our alpha! Period.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, just to make it clear.

No gun, no RoF, no Locktime, no FC can do a jack abaut 100 vs 100++ fight mechanics.

In that envoirment, best gun is that wich dont need to reload. Anything else is semantics.

Its lag envoirment.

Its like black hole, only its brown.

It bends the laws of EVE and physics.

And its not basis on the balance and fixing a classical minmatar gun that had Best alpha in game.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 09:39:56

Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, just to make it clear.

No gun, no RoF, no Locktime, no FC can do a jack abaut 100 vs 100++ fight mechanics.

In that envoirment, best gun is that wich dont need to reload. Anything else is semantics.

Its lag envoirment.

Its like black hole, only its brown.

It bends the laws of EVE and physics.

And its not basis on the balance and fixing a classical minmatar gun that had Best alpha in game.

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I have very recently participated in a 100v100 carrier heavy fleet fight that had almost no lag (though there was rather significant load time on the grid). It really is about the lock time and time to switch targets in a fleet of that size.

I've very recently participated in 150v250-300's too, and even a 60 vs 450 (we got ****ed). Both of these had lag. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: and by very recently, I mean today.
Ed Ed: Also, I'm going to bed.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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IMO (most likely to least likely arty boosts):
- Clip size
- Tracking
- Damage mod (slight)
- ROF decrease (slight)
- Damage mod (large) & ROF increase (slight)

-Liang

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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IMO (most likely to least likely arty boosts):
- Clip size
- Tracking
- Damage mod (slight)
- ROF decrease (slight)
- Damage mod (large) & ROF increase (slight)

-Liang

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And how is that not making them rails with no cap and different name ??

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Originally by: Gorjer

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Also Liang, if you've popped a BS in 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds (due to high alpha) the enemy has 15 seconds less damage from that BS. (if you get me, poorly worded!)

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Rinse and repeat and you've got ureself an extremely effective fleet BS.... maybe too effective! i'd hate to see the insta-popping pest of old.

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Originally by: Prez21

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Liang every situation you talk about is 100 v 100 where yes nearly all primaries will be or atleast should be popped, but what about smaller fleets, the higher alpha would be a massive bonus for smaller fleets trying to break remote rep tanks and as for not using quake have you ever been in a smallish fleet and fought upclose? its quite fun and i personaly would probably use some republic fleet fusion instead but close range ammo with huge alpha is kickass if used properly and gives another tatical option to fleet commanders.

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Originally by: Veryez

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So we're stuck with a good idea that CCP will never implement (Siddy's)

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and a good solution (Liang's) that will destroy the racial flavor of artillery that CCP might implement.

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And while I completely love Siddy's idea, I doubt we'll ever see it.

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Originally by: Khai D'mentus

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All i see is allot of cat and mouse here.. haven't u guys learned it yet. CCP wants math and graphs to show the downs and ups..

on a side note.. i would like to see the 1400 pest revived which is why i post, nothing else.

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Originally by: Gorjer

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Also Liang, if you've popped a BS in 5 seconds instead of 20 seconds (due to high alpha) the enemy has 15 seconds less damage from that BS. (if you get me, poorly worded!) Rinse and repeat and you've got ureself an extremely effective fleet BS.... maybe too effective! i'd hate to see the insta-popping pest of old.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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In the end, what they're saying was what made Artillery what it was, was intentionally removed from the game by CCP. Artillery's role was redefined, whether they (or I) like it or not.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Frack it! ill crunch you some numbers and define it!

Liang got no clue of right usage and aplication of alpha damage, it seems!

No'r he understand how it works in fleets!

BRB, making "numbers"

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Originally by: Siddy

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If it takes 60 rail trons (Rof 5 secs) to instapop one target, that means: You can pop 3 targets in the time spann of some 15 seconds. and can fire again in 5 secs

If it takes 20 Maels (Rof 15secs) (with buffed gun) to pop one targaet, and you got 60 maels, that mean you can pop the new targets down as soon as the locking is finished! Lets say 5 seconds, asuming its competent players and good FC.

That means, you kill 3 ships in 5 seconds, and first group can fire again in 10 seconds.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Frack it! ill crunch you some numbers and define it!

Liang got no clue of right usage and aplication of alpha damage, it seems!

No'r he understand how it works in fleets!

BRB, making "numbers"

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Make sure you read the thread I linked in my first post here. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Bronson Hughes

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I'm comparing usefulness for both large and small fleet sizes. Since Arties get used for both, they need to be considered in both.

Originally by: Siddy

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If it takes 60 rail trons (Rof 5 secs) to instapop one target, that means: You can pop 3 targets in the time spann of some 15 seconds. and can fire again in 5 secs

If it takes 20 Maels (Rof 15secs) (with buffed gun) to pop one targaet, and you got 60 maels, that mean you can pop the new targets down as soon as the locking is finished! Lets say 5 seconds, asuming its competent players and good FC.

That means, you kill 3 ships in 5 seconds, and first group can fire again in 10 seconds.

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If you happen to have three FCs, or an FC that can do three things at once, you are very correct. But that requires a lot of FC coordination, which takes extra time, and could possibly delay your opening salvos enough to reduce the benefit of your high-alpha weapons. It also relies on all of your pilots to be flying the same ships with the same capabilities, whereas it doesn't for a mixed-fleet that focuses mainly on DPS instead of alpha-strike. Needless to say, that is a lot harder to pull off in any fleet size. Probably the only thing harder to accomplish in a fleet than that is coordinating missile fire over long range to hit the same targets at the same time.

Like I said above, high-alpha weapons are still useful for smaller gangs, but as the fleet size increases their value decreases. It's simple math.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, all your assumptions for balancing this gun is that, it all operates under single fleetcomander in megablob.

Meaning that, you think alpha become meaningles, with low RoF when you got 100 tempes'ts and 1 FC to lead them.

That is true, but what god wrote in what stone, that you absolutly MUST have it that way? If i had 100 tempest man gang, and 20 tempest pop 1 ship, i whuld re structure my gang and work out diferent tactics.

You say eve chages? well it HAVENT CHANGET MUCH since 2003 in " primary X, secondary Y tetriary Z" fleet fights.

You asume that all fleet are structured the same way, when i can say, as a experienced fleet fighter, that competent group can restructure and utilise advance tactics in fleets that have manageble lag.

In 400 vs 400 its meaningles to speak of tactics, side who lags the less = win

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Originally by: Siddy

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So what you say, is that you got crap FC or nubswarm fleet, you cant utilise alpha properly?

Thats a solid ground for argument right there!

Never flown with TWD i see...

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Originally by: Hrin

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Whats the effort : payoff ratio here? How much time and effort does it take to make Tempests not suck compared to just using megas, geddons, rohks, etc.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, all your assumptions for balancing this gun is that, it all operates under single fleetcomander in megablob.

Meaning that, you think alpha become meaningles, with low RoF when you got 100 tempes'ts and 1 FC to lead them.

That is true, but what god wrote in what stone, that you absolutly MUST have it that way? If i had 100 tempest man gang, and 20 tempest pop 1 ship, i whuld re structure my gang and work out diferent tactics.

You say eve chages? well it HAVENT CHANGET MUCH since 2003 in " primary X, secondary Y tetriary Z" fleet fights.

You asume that all fleet are structured the same way, when i can say, as a experienced fleet fighter, that competent group can restructure and utilise advance tactics in fleets that have manageble lag.

In 400 vs 400 its meaningles to speak of tactics, side who lags the less = win

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Keep reading, actually. I address that point quite adequately. If you'd like to get into it here, I'd freaking love it.

You will get WTFPWNT, because you are 100% WRONG. :)

Don't ruin your reputation as "best pest pilot to have ever lived" by going down like this.

-Liang

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Originally by: Bronson Hughes

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Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 12/05/2008 21:15:55

Originally by: Siddy

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So what you say, is that you got crap FC or nubswarm fleet, you cant utilise alpha properly?

Thats a solid ground for argument right there!

Never flown with TWD i see...

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No, I say why make your FC work harder, or use more FCs, when you can get the job done with less coordination? More required coordination = more mistakes. More mistakes = worse performance.

Really, I don't understand your hostility in this situation. I'm not bashing you, or Minmatar, or Arties, I'm just saying that Arties are better suited for small gang work, which is what Minmatar are supposed to be good at.

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Originally by: Siddy

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You got no experience fro fleets that i got, i am redy to say that much.

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Ive seen fleets that do things way you describet, it smost common structure: Monkey swarm follows the voice of one leader. And side, whos space monkies are beter trained, diciplined and equipped, wins.

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Ive also seen stuff that is beyond you, and while it not always work, it was grate fun. And let me tell you that most Tempest related stuff of the old, worked very well.

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If you must incist on the fact that im trying to bring "old days", then let it be so. I am indeed trying to bring back the gun system that culd actualy do the "fast raids". Becouse now, fast raid is 20 man Blaster Blob decending on something.

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When in old days, 5 tempest's warp in, pop something and get the frack out. And it didint matter, if it was 20 man gang, as long you didint get tackled.

Now tell me, whuld it hurt EVE so much, balanve vice. If tempest were capable of 18k salvo, and mael 20k salvo?

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After resistances, it bloils down to 5-7k. 8k if you are lucky. That is usualy not even one third of armor plating you see on ship these days. And remeber that Tempest melts fast, if it is fitted to do alpha. So i dont see blance broken. I see old tactic re-established.

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Originally by: Siddy

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you are 100% right there.

Arties are exaktly for the small gangs that wish to achive critical mass faster. Without going megablob.

Its just some people wants to balacne arties with with only megablob. And while it is less "effective" with single comander. You will have otions to toy with difrent tactics this way, no mater how prone to mistakes and more hassle it might cause.

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PS: im just hostile at Liang, a bit, since he/she wants to balance everything for megablobs. And as she/he sed himself, "this change will favor small gangs and nerf tempest in mgablobs".

And even if i disagree on that, asuming it will happen, So what? Tempest is now useless in small gangs.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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I guess we're just going to force Minnies to train Caldari BS5 to participate in a fleet or run a mission. Awesome.


-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, i culd bet that your dream of eve is this: Count all ships, then count all ship "values" then just leth Computer calculate outcome, and then computer randonmly destroys your ships untill one side wins.

Like calculated fights in imperium galactica 2.

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/edit: and abaut raid fleets, 20 man spidertankking BS gang with tackler or two is where ive been flying weeks now. Please dont tell me, BS gangs that my alliance does now is a lie

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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You're hostile because you are wrong, and I called you on your bull****. Also, the Tempest (regardless of Arties) is nearing useless in any sized gang. Bring a Mael.

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Under what Rock have you lived your life, that is allredy the case.

If you want to run missions, any ship will do. If you wana run missions fast, get raven.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Prove me wrong then, your assumptions of fleets and megablobs has very little actual value in my eyes. No matter how much "numbers" you've crunched araund them.

Bring more alpha for 1400mm's, thats what I say!

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Oh, that's rich. You're talking about 20 man BS gangs, and telling me that I've never been in a fleet. Where I spent the last 6 weeks in fleet combat 5+ hours a day.

Rich.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Prove me wrong then, your assumptions of fleets and megablobs has very little actual value in my eyes. No matter how much "numbers" you've crunched araund them.

Bring more alpha for 1400mm's, thats what I say!

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I have proven you wrong. Just because you keep repeating yourself doesn't make you right. Or even close. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Im not telling you havent been in fleet. Im just telling D Solo sucks hard and any alliance with Celec apoch blows by default.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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I endorse an arty fix that does the following:

- Boost tracking of arties. Does it no make sense that weapons that have a lower RoF have an easier time tracking before each shot is fired? (Maybe it doesn't, I am far from being a gun expert, but in FPS at least for an untalented guy like me the accuracy per shot is much higher with low RoF guns...). Imho arties should even have the best tracking of all long range weapons.

- Double the clip size. This is a no brainer really.

- Switch positions of Fusion (+4 exp) and EMP (-4 kin) ammo so the minnie/angel high damage ammo is the proper exp focused one.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Tracking and ammohold of arties is relic from old days.

From the days arties actualy hurt.The idea of 1400mms was "BIG FRACKING GUN, NO, BIGGAR! MOAR!"
When one salvo whuld strip the untankked shields ona battleships, second whuld eat 1/3 into tankked armor.

Right now spome people want to change them into Railgun clone. I pray that CCP dont homogenise these guns :(

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Originally by: Siddy

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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I endorse an arty fix that does the following:

- Boost tracking of arties. Does it no make sense that weapons that have a lower RoF have an easier time tracking before each shot is fired? (Maybe it doesn't, I am far from being a gun expert, but in FPS at least for an untalented guy like me the accuracy per shot is much higher with low RoF guns...). Imho arties should even have the best tracking of all long range weapons.

- Double the clip size. This is a no brainer really.

- Switch positions of Fusion (+4 exp) and EMP (-4 kin) ammo so the minnie/angel high damage ammo is the proper exp focused one.

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Tracking and ammohold of arties is relic from old days.

From the days arties actualy hurt.The idea of 1400mms was "BIG FRACKING GUN, NO, BIGGAR! MOAR!"
When one salvo whuld strip the untankked shields ona battleships, second whuld eat 1/3 into tankked armor.

Right now spome people want to change them into Railgun clone. I pray that CCP dont homogenise these guns :(

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Tracking and ammohold of arties is relic from old days.

From the days arties actualy hurt.The idea of 1400mms was "BIG FRACKING GUN, NO, BIGGAR! MOAR!"
When one salvo whuld strip the untankked shields ona battleships, second whuld eat 1/3 into tankked armor.

Right now spome people want to change them into Railgun clone. I pray that CCP dont homogenise these guns :(

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Dude, Siddy, you're a tard. They would in no way be similar to rails. You're just ****posting, honestly. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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If you add following thigs to 1400mms:

Less RoF
More tracking**
More ammo hold**
more optimal range
easier fitting

will bring the 1400mms statisticaly closer to railguns.

Thats a mathematicaly established fact.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Frack it! ill crunch you some numbers and define it!

Liang got no clue of right usage and aplication of alpha damage, it seems!

No'r he understand how it works in fleets!

BRB, making "numbers"

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Originally by: karrak

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Innstead dig up some old pvp vids and remember when this game was great.

Il go back to my corner and cry now, cheers

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Originally by: Trefnis

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You know i actually do that now from time to time.

Liang the thing is, for the last 5 weeks u had like ****load of fleet fight with 200+ in system, good for you, enjoy they lag.

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But i prefer to have my ship usefull for the 90% of my play time (small gangs, sub 20bs) and useless in 10% of that 400ppl in local "battles" we all get like twice a week every week... than the other way around.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Wait, you mean that I might just have a clue about fleet fights? Oh noes!?!!?!?-Liang

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Ok i tried to be polite but as you called me a fool...

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I didnt say you have a clue about fleet fights, i said you might been there,
as i see now you know **** about artys and matari, you say you fly pest on alt that you wont tell his name...
as for know ill treat you as someone who use ishtars and falcons only, not much at that.

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Originally by: Prez21

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Liang youve no idea at all, you just want artys to be like rails, youve no sense of tatics or skill. A high alpha arty can give you so many different options available to you and it would give artys there own role not turn them into capless rails with a little less dmg which to be quite honest would be boring as hell.

All you keep going on about is massive fleet fights, what about smaller flets that could make great tatical use of a high alpha doing and runs, ive seen evoke make great use of artys in some of there fleets because high alpha opens up so many more options.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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I've already won this thread, WAAAAAAAMBULANCE!".
-Liang

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Originally by: Naomi Knight

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My posts are there too in "his" number topic :)
And he still brings that stupid 100vs100 fleet fight comparison , which is meaningless.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Prez21

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Liang youve no idea at all, you just want artys to be like rails, youve no sense of tatics or skill. A high alpha arty can give you so many different options available to you and it would give artys there own role not turn them into capless rails with a little less dmg which to be quite honest would be boring as hell.

All you keep going on about is massive fleet fights, what about smaller flets that could make great tatical use of a high alpha doing and runs, ive seen evoke make great use of artys in some of there fleets because high alpha opens up so many more options.

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Read the thread I linked, and you'll see the answer to that question. Also, I've seen use of alpha as well, but you're asking to pigeon hole an entire weapons class to merely be decent at breaking logistics chains and passive drakes.

Meanwhile, they'll suck at absolutely everything else. You have proof that I'm wrong: BRING IT.

-Liang

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Personally, I'd be happy with increased clip size, a little more DPS. If that DPS comes with more alpha, even better. Fixing T1 ammo, adding a fall off bonus to Tremor, and making quake more useful would be nice.

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Originally by: Prez21

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Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them.

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Originally by: Prez21

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Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them.

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Originally by: mama guru

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Do what they did to drones.

Double the rate of fire and the damage modifier. DPS stays the same.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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You know, I have to admit. This is an exceedingly fun thread. Mostly, it's fun because I'm being told that I don't have a clue, that I'm a nub, or that since I haven't been playing since 2003 that my opinion is worthless.

Then I return the heat a bit, and they go off whining. Know what, guys, I really thirst for some intelligent discussion about the state of artillery.

You want alpha boosted. Fine... that's a completely reasonable request. Bear these things in mind, though:
- The HP boost intentionally nerfed alpha strike
- Lowering DPS dramatically nerfs PVE
-- High DPS and fast target switching is required in PVE
- Making ROF worse drastically nerfs artillery for fleets
-- Faster ROF allows for faster target switching
-- Fleet effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS@160km / EHP
-- Fleet sizes these days easily alpha strike battleships, regardless of alpha
-- Breaking the fleet up into "manageable segments" does not alter this

I'll add more to this list if you guys bite the "intelligent discussion" bullet and help me turn this from a flamefest.

-Liang

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Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis

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Originally by: Prez21

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Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them.

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No one is saying that artillery should have LESS alpha. Just that if time between shot was much longer, you'd be even less effective in fleet fights due to overkill and not being able to bear your guns on a different target as fast.

That and everyone seems to either be reminiscing of a time that will never return, or wholesale over estimating the effect of high alpha.

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Originally by: Prez21

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Ok say ccp gives artys an increased clip size and improves the rof, of course they will need to take something away which will be some of its alpha strike, so after this im left with apoor mans mega?

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Why even train for to use artys when you are be inferior to all other sniping bs.

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Atleast with the higher alpha you get a choice and not everyone flys in huge fleets, we had a nice fight with bruce the other day with only around 25-30 bs in our fleet, bruce were using remoterep bs and te higher alpha would have given us a realy useful option, instead you seem to want us to fly capless megathron clone with poor dmg.

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Originally by: Prez21

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The thing is ccp arnt going to give artys an improved rof without taking away some of its alphastrike.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Prez21

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The thing is ccp arnt going to give artys an improved rof without taking away some of its alphastrike.

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That depends. Is there any reason to currently fly an arty ship?

No. There isn't a really good reason these days. You're operating on the assumption that Arties are *fine* now. They aren't. We're asking for straight up boosts.

-Liang

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Originally by: Prez21

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No if i thought artys were fine i wouldnt be asking for achange.

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So if your saying why not give artys a higher rof and keep the alpha, why not increase the alpha but keep the rof?

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You talk rubbish about how pests dont deal enough dmg to primaries because of there slow rof, they are quick enough not to miss out and thats talking from experience in fleetbattles and just in theory like i think you talk.

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As ive already said, plz explain to me how your proposed changes dont just make arties into capless poor mens rails?

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Originally by: Corphus

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the point is that by increasing alpha strike potential a tempest wing can deal the same amout of damage in shorter time or even in one or two volleys than say twice the number of non artillery bs.

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this is also aplicable to cruisers like the rupture.

imo the situation where minmatar should shine are the first 10 seconds after warp in. they arent desinged for longwinded standoffs and they should be geared respectiveley.

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Arties = Cruise

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Originally by: Bronson Hughes

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1. Artillery as a weapon system needs a boost.
2. Things like buffing clip size, tracking, and DPS are good ways of doing this because they help all the time, regardless of the situation.
3. High alpha strike weapons are useful for small gangs and/or hit-and-run fights and/or very highly coordinated larger fleets.

Things that people don't agree on:

1. Giving Artillery a buff to alpha strike (i.e. higher damage, lower RoF, same DPS) may or may not be useful for large fleet engagements in general.

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Originally by: "OP"

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Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more.
The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Not really.
1. Yes, we all agree arty needs ____________

Them:
1. Artillery should have lower DPS than present, and much higher alpha strikes.
2. High alpha, lower-than-present ROF & DPS would not nerf arties in fleets.
3. Tracking/Clip size boosts would make rails exact copies of rails

Me:
1. Arties should have clip size and tracking increases.
2. Tracking/Clip size boosts have nothing to do with rails.
3. Alpha increases are fine, as long as DPS stays the same or greater with 4 damage mods, and ROF stays similar

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more.
The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles

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Originally by: Veryez

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Actually Liang you are misquoting Siddy:

Originally by: Siddy

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Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more.
The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles

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He doesn't want a DPS drop.

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Originally by: Boz Well

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It all depends on how it's implemented. He's not advocating lower DPS, he says so explicitly, and it doesn't really make sense imo to assume he's advocating lower DPS because one possible implementation of his idea might result in lower dps with damage mods on.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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IIRC, lowering ROF will naturally result in a DPS drop once you factor in damage mods.

-Liang

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Originally by: Veryez

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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IIRC, lowering ROF will naturally result in a DPS drop once you factor in damage mods.

-Liang

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Are you sure about this? I know that a 10% boost in ROF is better than a 10% boost in damage for DPS calculations. But I don't think ROF calcs are different comparing damage mods vice no damage mods (since only the numerator changes in the ROF calc). Besides it can be balanced for equal DPS w/3 gyros.

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Originally by: XFreedomX

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Lowering ROF while increase damage in the case of Artillery actually improves DPS due to the low clip size.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: XFreedomX

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Lowering ROF while increase damage in the case of Artillery actually improves DPS due to the low clip size.

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Cute, and more true than I'd care to admit.

-Liang

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Originally by: Hardtail

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ITT we have a Liang measuring contest.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Edited by: Siddy on 13/05/2008 01:52:04
What liang is raging abaut is this:

We all know (or shuld) that 5% more rof result in more damage than 5% more Damagemod in a gun.

Thats why tacyons are LOLPOWERFUL in abaddon and arma right now.

I think, he/she/it(?) is thinkking that i want to change flat numbers in fashion of +50% damage mod -50% RoF.

In fact, im not. I leave that to the devs to deside, what is most apropriate thing to do.

All i want, is araund 150% to 200% more Alpha, since the HP boost's, rigs and plate boosts make current idea of "hard hitters" obsoleat.

All in all, even the Number of actual alpha increase are in devs hands. All i want to do is to bring this to publick attention and discuss, and hope (pray) for dev anwser.

Liangs fleet fight analogies are flawed to say atleast. This might be direct result of the fact that he/she/it might not have played EVE in the times when Tempest were number 1 fleet ship despite lowest DPS, because of the alpha.

No wepon system (apart of DDD) in eve, is or ever will be balanced araund 100 vs 100 man assumptions, ever.

Now, im not, directly, asking CCP to bring 5 seconds fights back, that wont happen.
Even if CCP grants tempest and male its 20k~ ish alpha, it wont invalid any of the current setups in use.
In this age of spider tankking, that is DESIGNED to fight consentrated fire, with huge buffer it wont bring back old times. But, it will grant new aproach to fight people.

I still say, that properly tankked battleship, that got a carrier with reps sitting nexst, is going to survive few "20k every odd 20 seconds" Mael's. But if it cought by surprise, then maybe not.

Right now there is no way to employ this tactic with minmatar ships, Abaddons and torp ravens do beter "shock" damage than any minmatar BS at the moment. That is wrong.

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Originally by: Bronson Hughes

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Originally by: Hardtail

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ITT we have a Liang measuring contest.

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Fixed.

(Sorry Liang, nothing but respect for you, but that was just too easy)

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, you can sod me off from fleet discussions when you fought in almost every major EVE war ever fought.

Startting from First Founttain region conflicts and SA/CA and PA times to the latest failures of the coalition and friends.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Liang, you can sod me off from fleet discussions when you fought in almost every major EVE war ever fought.

Startting from First Founttain region conflicts and SA/CA and PA times to the latest failures of the coalition and friends.

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I'll tell you to sod off when I well please. Especially when you don't understand even the basics of how fleet combat really works.

Your view is too clouded by how it used to work.

-Liang

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Originally by: NightmareX

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I want to see things like that happen again.

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Originally by: Megan Maynard

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNND

Putting arty's on any minmatar ship is stupid.

USE AUTOS.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Tonight, 12 o klock, at the central park: 10 phases, and draw your handbag!

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WTF is that supposed to mean?!

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: NightmareX

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I want to see things like that happen again.

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]

They won't, though. CCP deliberately removed that from the game. They even put it in the patch notes.

Just sayin'

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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Unless you're planning to bring a whole fleet of yous, and a whole fleet of me's, we won't resolve anything except perhaps stroke one of our egos.

Simply put: My observations regarding alpha strike were born out over the last 5-6 weeks of fighting in TODAY's EVE.

You're complaining that TODAY'S ARTILLERY doesn't have the alpha strike of YESTERDAY's ARTILLERY.

This is true. It is intentional. You aren't likely to get it back.

-Liang

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Originally by: NightmareX

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But we hardcore Minmatar players still want the tool to make players fear us in Minmatar ships. That's what Minmatar is good at (or was), to spread fear in the galaxy.

And to get that back, the projectiles have to be changed / boosted in some ways, and for me, the Alpha Strike have to be boosted, that's the first thing i would change. But ofc, i'm open to other changed as well, as long it can make players fear us Minmatar players again.

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Relevations 3:16

So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

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Originally by: Siddy

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I dont know, is it intentional (to ruin a weponsystem in proces of "balancing"), but it is convinient. And devs were realy happy that no one whined abaut for almost a year now.

Well, gues what, time to whine.

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But if defects in game like these crop up and no one do anything abaut it, i will have to find me a new EVE soon.

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Originally by: Siddy

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All other roles are covered by other wepon systems.

DPS is covered
Best range is covered
No ammo consumption is covered

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That's the thing. They're not covered.

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Read Ecky's post. We should shut this one down - it's got way too much smack in it. Let's try not to ruin his with smack, eh? (Yes, that includes me. :p) :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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You can happily stop posting in this thread if you want to.
You havent bring up any constructive minmatar mindet ideas, you are obsessed with caldari wepons and reek of caldari!

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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You can happily stop posting in this thread if you want to.
You havent bring up any constructive minmatar mindet ideas, you are obsessed with caldari wepons and reek of caldari!

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FFS, you never stop the smack. It's a shame you are so out of touch with the way fleets work these days. At least then you might have a clue. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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F1 F2 F3 F4 F5...

Aaaaand the lucky winner, todays primary is Mr X, followed By Z and Y!

imirite?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Originally by: Siddy

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F1 F2 F3 F4 F5...

Aaaaand the lucky winner, todays primary is Mr X, followed By Z and Y!

imirite?

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It's a bit more complicated than that. Specifically the parts where you wildly overestimate how important alpha strike is over DPS. :)

-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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MORE DOTS! MORE DOTS, THROW MORE DOTS!

I DONT SEE ENOUGHT DOTS!


GET AWAY FROMT HE WELPS!

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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I really thirst for some intelligent discussion about the state of artillery.

You want alpha boosted. Fine... that's a completely reasonable request. Bear these things in mind, though:
- The HP boost intentionally nerfed alpha strike

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Lowering DPS dramatically nerfs PVE

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- High DPS and fast target switching is required in PVE

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Making ROF worse drastically nerfs artillery for fleets

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Faster ROF allows for faster target switching

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Fleet effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS@160km / EHP

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Fleet sizes these days easily alpha strike battleships, regardless of alpha

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Breaking the fleet up into "manageable segments" does not alter this

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Originally by: Trefnis

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- High DPS and fast target switching is required in PVE

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For pve pest was always like worst ship possible get a phoon, even low skill raven is better that mael/phoon

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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- Making ROF worse drastically nerfs artillery for fleets

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I dont agree on that, during your fleets were you always able to lock all targets, activate all guns on it ? it never happened to me, there is lag, some guns dont activate, they are ready for the next target.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Fleet effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS@160km / EHP

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so since pest with 6 lows will never have the ehp of mega/apoc you say we should have more dps or just leave it for them to do fleets ?

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Fleet sizes these days easily alpha strike battleships, regardless of alpha

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sure, but dont tell me that all fleet fights are 100+ on one side, at 30-70bs that alpha would make a difference

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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-- Breaking the fleet up into "manageable segments" does not alter this

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it would, as im stuck in the past ill tell you that during past large (50bs on side) fights me and 3 other ppl used to differ from primary as we were alowed to call primaries ourselves, there were no overkill or anything just 2 ships going down in the same time normally it would be one.

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Originally by: Trefnis

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also one more thing, today if you have 4-5 bs gang you can do nothing if 10-15 bs come,
in the past if those 5 bs were pest you would warp on them at 40-60km and pop at least one bs in 2 volleys before he could align thx to that alpha,

that is what i really miss

if you knew you have 5 pest waiting on you on the other side of the gate you were SCARED to jump in even with more bs on your side, becouse at least one of yours bs would die before warping of.

thou even with BIG apha it wouldnt happen no more as noone fly now in full dmg mod no tank bses.

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Originally by: Trefnis

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also one more thing, today if you have 4-5 bs gang you can do nothing if 10-15 bs come,
in the past if those 5 bs were pest you would warp on them at 40-60km and pop at least one bs in 2 volleys before he could align thx to that alpha,

that is what i really miss

if you knew you have 5 pest waiting on you on the other side of the gate you were SCARED to jump in even with more bs on your side, becouse at least one of yours bs would die before warping of.

thou even with BIG apha it wouldnt happen no more as noone fly now in full dmg mod no tank bses.

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That's all well and good, but what you're really doing is the same fallacy that we always advise noobs not to do: split your damage up.

Now, if you were able to literally alpha strike your opponent, it might have been different... but you didn't. Also, each loss that the high alpha squad takes greatly affects their ability to alpha ships, to the point that it simply isn't possible to be effective.

It's a fairly linear scale between micro and macro conflicts, with some expected perturbations.

-Liang

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That's rather the definition of fleet battleships.
-Liang

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Originally by: Siddy

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Let me ask this. Are you ******?

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You are making fleet batle balance assumptions, based on child logic; "If i cant shoot for 20 seconds, no one else can either"

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Originally by: Tuxford

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I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Well, I do make assumptions... like you can't shoot faster than your rate of fire.

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The last one, regarding "they are not bringing alpha back" point. You are very right, those days are gone. But alpha Siddy ids talking about is not "one-salvo-kill" alpha. It's alpha big enough to warp-in on 100 km to a gate where the skirmish is going, lock that falcon or rapier that's giving hard time to your friends, so that he ****s his pants and tries to flee, and warp away before that interceptor over there reaches you.

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Originally by: Delichon

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So if you discuss increasing alpha from the modern 3k, you would like to think in the sence of "How many Tempests should it take to insta-pop a Vaga/Falcon from 150km away?"

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Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen

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You cant balance around 5 vs 1, just like you cant actually balance around 1v1. It just doesnt work. A fact that "3 tempests instapop falcon" is totally unrelated to balance. It's like "who'll win, 3 tigers or 3 pterodactyls?".

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Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen

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Of course SOME amount of tempests will instapop SOMETHING. And it's unrealistic to decide how many of them should be able to instapop what, because size of engagements is arbitary, not fixed.

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