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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Forge Lag
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:48:00 -
[211]
Liang: The assumption that lower RoF is nerf for fleet work is not entirely correct. If you have reasonable lag, good intel and godlike command it does not matter. You are assuming that lower RoF necessarily leads to overkill. For most practical purposes it does but it is not universally true. If people do get their alpha it will lead to minmatar being more hard mode (as in needless hassle for same results) but not necessarily worse performing.
Rest: Lower alpha is on purpose and small clip size is on purpose (it has same average firing time as rails but all usefull shells are huge and none shoots DU) so analyze and attack the reasons that led to those decisions instead of repeating that you want cookie.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.17 23:52:00 -
[212]
 Originally by: Forge Lag
Liang: The assumption that lower RoF is nerf for fleet work is not entirely correct. If you have reasonable lag, good intel and godlike command it does not matter. You are assuming that lower RoF necessarily leads to overkill. For most practical purposes it does but it is not universally true. If people do get their alpha it will lead to minmatar being more hard mode (as in needless hassle for same results) but not necessarily worse performing.
Incorrect: All simulations were performed with the assumption that you wouldn't fire unnecessary shots at each ship. That doesn't make a difference. :)
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Corphus
The NewOrder
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:35:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Corphus
you see here why arties need to be changed.
P.S.: i read your thread. it doesnt point out why a bs with a theoretical volley dmg of say 6-8k of dmg every 20 seconds would be worthless.
It's not the alpha so much as the ROF and raw DPS. Alpha, in its current incarnation, is useless.
IF the alpha were boosted rather significantly, and the DPS stayed the same, you'd see the eight seconds of win being more reasonable.
-Liang
thats what i want to say.
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Ortos
Abyssus Incendia
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.18 16:49:00 -
[214]
havent had time to catch up on dayly whines but.
/signed on everything saying heavy arties is broken, they are.
/bull**** on comments saying they should be 400 DPS weaker since they are capless. (ITS 400 FRIGGING DPS) A bit weaker in DPS is ok, but 400 is far too much.
Yes they need better tracking. Conciderably better damage OR alpha. A combination could work. Powergrid is too high in comparison to autocannons (makes neut + autocannon fits too good in comparison to arties and no neuts, hence if you got grid for arties, fit autocannons), so maybe autocannons PG should be increased a bit instead of 1400 decreased, ships balanced accordingly.
Clip size needs to be increased (lag in fleet fights can make a reload take up to 3-4 mins)
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Soyemia
Minmatar
Art of War
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.05.18 18:39:00 -
[215]
Siddy start playing again ...............
Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper. |
0mnipotenceX
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Posted - 2008.05.18 19:19:00 -
[216]
As a very long time minmatar pilot, using 1400mm II's for a long time, excellent gunnery and BS skills at V I feel obligated to join this discussion if only to cast what i feel seems to be turning into a vote in this massive discussion.
Firstly a remark about the state of this thread in general. Liang, you have had nothing constructive to say later on in this thread, you have said all you have to say, so stop posting. Turn on your eve client once in a while. You speak of TODAYS eve and CURRENT FLEET BATTLES. Either you are on your computer 18 hours a day and need to chill out, or you're posting on the forums way too much and need to actually go play the game you claim to be an unquestionable expert on.
Anyway, that having been said, I agree with the OP (Siddy). Too long have 1400mms been an obsolete strategy. I have since turned to the Sleipnir for my fun and totally turned away from any artillery setups. i havn't whinned about it, i just accepted the fact that weapon systems go through highs and lows. This has been a particularly low and severe low and i think Siddy and others are right to be finally bringing it up in a constructive way. I would really like to see CCP making some sort of formal comment on the issues or participating in these large discussions. What better way for improving game play is there than active conversation between CUSTOMERS and developers? Wishful thinking no doubt.
The bottom line is, 1400mm's have garbage tracking, low optimal (BUT THE FALLOFF WHAAA WHAAAA!.... please...), and are fitted on ships with NO TANK. Anyone tried tanking in a tempest? Doesn't work. You are a damage dealer. You know this stepping into the ship. That is your role.
The argument that HP buffs were specifically put in place to cut out alpha i disagree with. If i remember correctly, the objective was to make fights generally, last longer (which i dont necessarily disagree with - infact i agree with it.) Where does this leave us artillery pilots? Leaves me short 3-4mill sp. Nuff said.
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Ortos
Abyssus Incendia
THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.05.18 19:40:00 -
[217]
Omni, great post.
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Jalif
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.18 20:07:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Ortos
Omni, great post.
Ai
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.05.18 20:49:00 -
[219]
Originally by: 0mnipotenceX
Liang, you have had nothing constructive to say later on in this thread, you have said all you have to say, so stop posting.
Um, sure. Tell me that I have nothing constructive to say when I respond to Siddy's "stfu noob I r teh greatest tempest pilot to ev4r live!!!11oneeleven".
Anyway, he has offered numbers, and has never come forward with them. Probably because the numbers simply don't agree with what he's said (regarding fleet battles). I stick to my guns regarding the fleet battles.
I wish that people like you would back up your "stfu noob" comments with something constructive (like numbers), though. Ah, I'll miss the days when people wanted intelligent discussion. :)
Wait... that must not have been on Eve-O. ;-)
At any rate, your wish is very likely to be my command, because I'm in the process of getting ready to move/buy a house. I doubt my forum time will be much compromised, because it's virtually all at work anyway (which might explain why I can post so much and still play on occasion. Dual monitors helps too).
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
0mnipotenceX
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Posted - 2008.05.18 22:03:00 -
[220]
Liang: "Um, sure. Tell me that I have nothing constructive to say when I respond to Siddy's "stfu noob I r teh greatest tempest pilot to ev4r live!!!11oneeleven"."
See dude, you add nothing here. Go buy your house and paint something (by the way no one cares about your private life). Like I have said, you have made your oppinions felt, that's all you can do. Anymore more than that is just a nuisance to people trying to contribute their own thoughts and feelings to the issues.
You ask me for numbers. I presume you mean something like what was done with the "1400s out of the box" thread that is going on. Not that I have anything against empirical, data-based arguments and discussions, but I don't feel numbers are really the best way to go about it. There are far too many situational variables in this game that all too often make numbers pointless. You can sit there with your item info screen and calculator in hand all you want, multiplying ammo damage, ROF, damage multipliers but when it comes down to it, we all know that there is something amiss. The bottom line is, minmatar need to be doing a decent amount more damage than other battleships to remain competitive since their tank-ability is INARGUABLY DRASTICALLY LOWER. I'm not complaining about that sole fact. I feel though, if you can't take nearly as much damage as a hyp, aba, mega, raven etc etc, you should be dealing a greater amount of damage that is significant enough to make up for this. Ohhhhh but omni! minmatar ships are so much more agile than the rest of battleships. Honestly... is this point really that significant? I will trade the ability to fly 15m/s more than other battleships and warp maybe 1.5seconds sooner than other battleships for the ability to do at least tank OR deal competitive damage that rightly compensates me for my absolute inability to get shot at.
Looking to hear from someone that isn't Liang here. Maybe a DEV willing to finally speak up. Or does that violate the CPP rules: NO TALKING TO CUSTOMERS unless it is in some back-logged rushed petition.
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Kaleeb
Gods Unwanted
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Posted - 2008.05.18 22:07:00 -
[221]
Omni the tempest doesnt even warp faster than other bs's. It does it at the same speed as a raven  15.3 secs or something
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0mnipotenceX
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Posted - 2008.05.18 22:17:00 -
[222]
"omni the tempest doesnt even warp faster than other bs's. It does it at the same speed as a raven Sad 15.3 secs or something"
Then where is the advantage? Battleships aren't designed for or used in such a way that requires them to be at all agile.
If i had 150mill sp and perfect skills for every battleship with all the mods in the game. What incentive is there for me to be flying a minmatar ship that uses 1400mm's as opposed to an amarr or gallente BS?
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.05.18 22:47:00 -
[223]
Originally by: 0mnipotenceX
See dude, you add nothing here. Go buy your house and paint something (by the way no one cares about your private life). Like I have said, you have made your oppinions felt, that's all you can do. Anymore more than that is just a nuisance to people trying to contribute their own thoughts and feelings to the issues.
You ask me for numbers. I presume you mean something like what was done with the "1400s out of the box" thread that is going on. Not that I have anything against empirical, data-based arguments and discussions, but I don't feel numbers are really the best way to go about it. There are far too many situational variables in this game that all too often make numbers pointless. You can sit there with your item info screen and calculator in hand all you want, multiplying ammo damage, ROF, damage multipliers but when it comes down to it, we all know that there is something amiss. The bottom line is, minmatar need to be doing a decent amount more damage than other battleships to remain competitive since their tank-ability is INARGUABLY DRASTICALLY LOWER. I'm not complaining about that sole fact. I feel though, if you can't take nearly as much damage as a hyp, aba, mega, raven etc etc, you should be dealing a greater amount of damage that is significant enough to make up for this. Ohhhhh but omni! minmatar ships are so much more agile than the rest of battleships. Honestly... is this point really that significant? I will trade the ability to fly 15m/s more than other battleships and warp maybe 1.5seconds sooner than other battleships for the ability to do at least tank OR deal competitive damage that rightly compensates me for my absolute inability to get shot at.
Looking to hear from someone that isn't Liang here. Maybe a DEV willing to finally speak up. Or does that violate the CPP rules: NO TALKING TO CUSTOMERS unless it is in some back-logged rushed petition.
Lol, "numbers are not the way to go here". Can you believe? You are probably right, we should discuss about objective matters with feelings instead of numbers. Like I feel Tempest is underpowered, wait now I am having a mood change, I feel it is ok. Give me a break...
Numbers are the best way to apraise the worth of anything in this game and situational variables can be taken into consideration by careful examination as it is done with things RIDICULOUSLY MORE COMPLEX in the real world. Eve is a game, not rocket science or quantum mechanics, it is reasonably trivial to model it mathematically. The fact You can't do it does not mean others can't as well. It DOES mean that you should keep your mouth shut, though.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
0mnipotenceX
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Posted - 2008.05.19 00:33:00 -
[224]
that or i just don't feel like turning eve into a phd. research project chief. You dazzle us all with your mathematical genius.
Im not saying im basing my evaluation off of emotions. I told you i didn't have a problem with empirical evidence, but i don't see anyone on here coming up with any solid calculations.
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Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 00:57:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 19/05/2008 00:59:11
Originally by: 0mnipotenceX
that or i just don't feel like turning eve into a phd. research project chief. You dazzle us all with your mathematical genius.
Im not saying im basing my evaluation off of emotions. I told you i didn't have a problem with empirical evidence, but i don't see anyone on here coming up with any solid calculations.
As I said you don't need a phd to understand eve simple mechanics in mathematical terms. The fact you think you do, tells a lot.
And you don't see the "solid calculations" either because you don't bother to look for them in this same forum in the thread the problem was discussed to exhaustion or because you lack the capacity to recognize them. Pick one...
Oh, and regarding your comment about my mathematical genius, the only thing I have to say is that I am not the one that is arrogant enough to create a character named Omnipotence. 
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Atomos Darksun
Infortunatus Eventus
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Posted - 2008.05.19 01:41:00 -
[226]
It's great not flying Minmatar battleships, isn't it?
Originally by: Amoxin
My vent is talking to me in a devil voice...
Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 01:56:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
this is a fail steak smothered in a sauce of off topic personal attacks.
you ppl are almost as bad as liang (or ARE YOU liang?  ).
either way, here i am trolling away. its frickin impossible to have an artillery thread around you ppl. sheesh
If you want to have a decent artillery thread it is easy, my dear. Just stay quiet. If we take yours and Omni's posts from this thread it isn't so bad, you see.
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"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:03:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
this is a fail steak smothered in a sauce of off topic personal attacks.
you ppl are almost as bad as liang (or ARE YOU liang? ).
either way, here i am trolling away. its frickin impossible to have an artillery thread around you ppl. sheesh
No. If you read enough of the forums, you'll find that I've flamed Etho before.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:09:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
this is a fail steak smothered in a sauce of off topic personal attacks.
you ppl are almost as bad as liang (or ARE YOU liang? ).
either way, here i am trolling away. its frickin impossible to have an artillery thread around you ppl. sheesh
No. If you read enough of the forums, you'll find that I've flamed Etho before.
-Liang
We may disagree on several issues, but you back your logic with reason and numbers.
=====
"If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron... |
Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:35:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 19/05/2008 02:35:35
I am on Liang and Etho's side. OmnipotentX was the one who started messing up the thread without adding anything useful and he started to flame the others first. Then he was treated the way he deserved.
As for his "friend" Princess Alia i couldn't help but notice they both share the similar way of ignoring that after a "." comes a capital letter
Coincidence?  |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 02:48:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/05/2008 02:48:25
Originally by: 0mnipotenceX
Like I have said, you have made your oppinions felt, that's all you can do. Anymore more than that is just a nuisance to people trying to contribute their own thoughts and feelings to the issues.
There's this thing called discourse. You should look into it. There's also this thing called a forum.
Oh noes.
Quote:
You ask me for numbers. I presume you mean something like what was done with the "1400s out of the box" thread that is going on. Not that I have anything against empirical, data-based arguments and discussions, but I don't feel numbers are really the best way to go about it.
Yeah, because Eve can't be boiled down to a series of algorithms to be run on a computer.
Quote:
There are far too many situational variables in this game that all too often make numbers pointless. You can sit there with your item info screen and calculator in hand all you want, multiplying ammo damage, ROF, damage multipliers but when it comes down to it, we all know that there is something amiss.
Sure, you're absolutely correct. Superior players will always be superior players - but it always helps to have the numbers on your side. Essentially it boils down to artillery being inferior in the ideal case. If they're inferior in the ideal case, they'll be inferior in the actual case too.
Also, you may want to look up the dev blog where the devs decided to nerf laser ammo. They used these things called "numbers" to justify it.
Quote:
... a fairly well thought out argument relating to battleship agility, tanking, and damage...
:)
Quote:
Looking to hear from someone that isn't Liang here. Maybe a DEV willing to finally speak up. Or does that violate the CPP rules: NO TALKING TO CUSTOMERS unless it is in some back-logged rushed petition.
I told you: General, Game Dev, or Features / Ideas.
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Ne nehn
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Posted - 2008.05.19 04:06:00 -
[232]
Artillery still broken.
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Jalif
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.19 05:23:00 -
[233]
Well, we are probably a few pages back now. This is not how a topic should be!
If somebody "attacks" you or he is not correct then either ignore him or give proof & a resonable explenation why you think arty should be this & that.
If you have nottting to say about the topic. Don't talk, just read & wait until you have something to add like a new idea.
About numbers & feelings. Both are needed. Cause if something works on paper doesn't have to work in practice!
HOWEVER we first need the numbers anyway to begin testing I'm I right? So for all those smart dudes here who know it better then me. Lay out some possibilites for arty. Maybe 3 diffrent types of arty & we can hand something over to CCP or anybody knows how to test it!
Or it is also possible just to keep on this discussion that is going nowhere atm!
PS: I am not saying people are right or wrong. But if you want to make a diffrence then do something with it & show people.
TIP: There is never the "best" option. Some Arty ideas will have faulures & pro's. Ones again, lay out some diffrent types of Arty that is possible! Even those who look like railguns & suck like ass. Maybe in the end they are the best choice!
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 05:31:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Jalif
PS: I am not saying people are right or wrong. But if you want to make a diffrence then do something with it & show people.
Honestly, this thread is very much worthy of dying. It's just chock full of hateful and ridiculous chest beating that really didn't accomplish much of anything. I know, I curse myself for bumping it just now.
Quote:
TIP: There is never the "best" option. Some Arty ideas will have faulures & pro's. Ones again, lay out some diffrent types of Arty that is possible! Even those who look like railguns & suck like ass. Maybe in the end they are the best choice!
Correction: There shouldn't be a best option. :)
-Liang
--
It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.05.19 06:43:00 -
[235]
dont worry i'm not whatsisnames alt, but i am an alt  (suprise suprise)
yeah, bad form on the last post, was at the end of a long work day. SO, something constructive eh?
i think its been stated many many times in the several threads going. alpha is contrary to the 'longer pvp combat' approach ccp has nurtured. so we get borked there until they see a reason to revisit this decision. not saying they need to revisit the idea across the board, but they would need to accept that some ships, in concept, should be the exception to the rules
what i would like to see are numbers, and frankly i'm bunk at them. however everyone complains about clip size (myself included)... but i'm gonna throw this on the table. what IF they actually lowered the clip size by a couple rounds? (bear with me here)...
you get your alpha back, a tempest/mael is a frightening thing to have to eat a couple volleys from, but then the clip size sucks so bad that over time, the dps is onpar/subpar w/ the rest? make it a niche weapon but one that actually has a place in combat
i remember not TOO long ago (but long enough) getting camped in by russians and we would often say, "can we get X tempests, do we have X tempests?!?" knowing that a group of 4 alone could change the tides by quickly (and i mean QUICKLY) dispatching a couple of the enemy snipers giving time to get other ships in the mix
hit and run... what they are supposed to be
sorry again for the earlier derails, ugly side of the internet, anonymity leads to asshattery and i think liang's ideas are daft and wrong direction for the weapon
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RedeyeAce
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Posted - 2008.05.19 09:02:00 -
[236]
Put this in 3 pages ago, Jalif seems to agree and has asked for the numbers... anychance we can get this sorted now??
Why carry on arguing over pointless faming each other, when we all agree theres a problem.. can we get on with fixing it please!!
Originally by: RedeyeAce
Edited by: RedeyeAce on 13/05/2008 08:04:34
[TRYING MY BEST TO GET THIS BACK ON TOPIC]
Sid. I dont know of you however it is the general concensus that u are a highly experienced pilot so lets assumne that you have the greater experience.. period
Liang. I do know of you and always think you bring a more scientific approach to things,which generaly i agree with.
Now back to the point
I can understand the conclusions from liangs other post and the multiple threads that were in that and i think we were all coming around to the idea that that was the way to go. (yes im sad and i enjoy reading the forums when i cannot play, so ive read id say 90% of the Matari nd general weapon issues)
Sid, u mentioned a few pages ago that liangs numbers were completely wrong and that you were going away to provide the actual numbers...
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE can we SEE them
Perhaps betweeen yours and liangs we can come up with a more balanced approach where (you cant please all the people all the time) we would be mostly happy with.
It seems to me as tho were just banging heads atm, if we have a highly expeienced person and somebody as good as liag who can simultate stuff (due to his RL job) then surely we should stop butting heads and work together to come up with a decent solution.. Then we can start a new post and all just get on and sign it!!!!
Just my 2cents
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Marn Prestoc
Minmatar
The Black Mamba's
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Posted - 2008.05.19 09:41:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 19/05/2008 09:42:38
Just a few diagrams to show the dps/range and volley damage and what a couple of the more basic changes suggested would do.
I used Maelstrom against pretty standard Mega, Apoc and Rokh fittings.
Dps against Range - Here we can see how the range sucks even using 3 range modules. We also can see how having more falloff makes very little difference when optimals are 150km+ and falloff is only 35km.
Dps with reloads against Range - If we're going to bring arguements about cap use into this then this should be the comparison used as weapons will have to reload before cap using weapons/ships have cap issues. I think this one shows the difference between the minmatar snipers and the Megathron very well, practically same dps with less range, tracking and harder fitting.
Both of the above images show a simple change of adding a falloff bonus to Tremor of +50% that helps the range a lot, but in a minmatar way.
They also show a swap of Maelstroms ROF bonus to DMG, this isn't a swap that keeps DPS the same (would need a bigger DMG bonus) but you can see in volley damage against time the effect it has. I think this demonstrates to me that the DPS needs to be kept the same or increased slightly while increasing the volley damage. Slowing the ROF will reduce the problem of the clip size but it should still be increased by a few shots imo.
My proposal for CCP to test would be to...
- Tremor:
Increase falloff by 40% (x1.4).
- 1400mm T2 arty:
Increase damage by +25% (x1.25).
Increase ROF by +23% (x1.23) slowing it down. Just to be clear SLOWING rof DECREASES dps.
Increase clip size by 2 shots taking 10 shots to 12.
This would produce:
Dps against Range - You can see a slight DPS increase along with a real benifit in the new increased falloff range.
Dps with Reloads against Range - With a slower ROF and 2 more shots the dps decrease due to reloading is reduced.
Volley damage against Time - We can see the increase in volley damage and with the ROF not being slowed to much the time that volley damage is ahead is increased.
Just a quick suggestion really with clear numbers and effect they have, if anything more i'd like the clip size increased more.
-
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deadmeet
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Posted - 2008.05.19 11:54:00 -
[238]
Very constructive topic. I didn't take time to verify all values proposed but it seems correct to me.
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Jalif
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.05.19 12:55:00 -
[239]
Well, wait now for response from a dev?
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.05.19 15:20:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Jalif
Well, wait now for response from a dev?
Very doubtful a Dev would respond to this. However Marn has put forth a valid, fair solution to increase the role of Artillery with numbers to back up his arguments. The next steps would be for us to sign on to this idea enough so that devs would eventually take notice.
I would be interested to know how these changes effect Liang's simulation. However they look very good to me (although I would like a much larger clip also). The boost in falloff on Tremor is a good idea, I wonder why not Quake also. Also would this Tremor boost only be for large ammo or all Tremor.
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