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Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.13 14:51:00 - [181] Originally by: Prez21 Anyway I respect your opionions but i dont agree with them. Consider it likewise. :) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:05:00 - [182] Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen I believe what Siddy is saying is that you spend only as much of your damage as target can take. If it takes 60 railguns to instapop a BS... The rest will stay inactive, because target is already dead, and thus be ready for secondary. Siddy went on to claim that you both will and won't have your secondary already targeted (depending on which one suited him at the time). Either way, that was taken into account in the model. Quote: 1) I think you overestimate the nevgative effect of low ROF in a fleetfight. I mean, faster ROF is more convenient, yes. But as long as you can't shoot at dead target due to game mechanics, it doesnt really matter that much. I can just shoot at next one, if i was late for primary. This is true, but the application of this is directly limited to how many ships your FC can call primary, secondary, etc. Quote: Just like you said - it all boils down to DPS, high alpha doesnt really help. But it works both ways - high alpha doesnt make you bad sniper either. So if DPS is kept the same, the Tempest will be just as sucky for fleetfight as it is :) It's true, and I'm willing to make that concession. As long as they don't really nerf my fleet BS, I'd probably be fine. Quote: 3) I am trying to read this thread as open-minded as i can, and I have a feeling thet you are overbiased towards fleetfights. Which is very understandable :) But you cant balance ships around fleetfights. The whole Minmatar ship design concept is not built around long-range linear armada bombardments. Heh, thanks. I'm not really overbiased, I'm just trying to point out that there's an entire "emerging" form of combat that simply cannot be ignored. Anything which really eliminates arties from being useful in fleets is a large nerf to straight Matari players. Quote: Giving them high alpha and retaining DPS is a good start. Increasing clipsize and especially increasing their tracking is something that will not make them better fleet weapons, and will not fix them in their role. It will stop being frustrating, and perhaps allow you to hit when aligned at battle speed... that'd be nice. Quote: Siddy's proposal will create such a reason, and a mighty one. It doesnt need to be a fleet-related reason, right? No, it doesn't, as long as it doesn't overnerf fleet usage. Quote: But alpha Siddy ids talking about is not "one-salvo-kill" alpha. He's talking about hitting a third of a plated battleship's armor. Three Maelstroms would make any active tank 100% obsolete via instapoppage. What was that about making fights longer? ;-) Quote: P.S.: Please, personal request - stop using "lag" argument when discussing weapon balance issues. Saying "we have lag, lets increase weapon clipsize to solve it" is illogical. I totally understand your frustration, but lets stay objective here. Clip size is annoying even without lag. I'm spending about 10-13% of my time reloading in any given fight. Really, it's a very significant DPS reduction in any sustained fight (PVE, Fleet, or even small gang). -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:46:00 - [183] Originally by: Siddy Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: Increasing clip size allows for artillery to maintain what they have now and not be incredibly frustrating to use. That's it. Increasing tracking (not to be best, but merely some) allows the weapons to meld better with Matari tactics and strategies. So you want to create a railgun that dont take cap? How original. No it won't be a railgun. The 425railgun has 40 bullets per clip getting the 1400 from 10 to 20 or 30 doesn't make it a railgun. And the railgun has still the much better optimal meaning more DPS-more hits. Before starting to say that since i am minmatar i try to boost my race i say that i fly Amarr/Minmatar with this character and Caldari/Gallente with my alt so that proves i don't do it for personal benefit. _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
Soyemia Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:48:00 - [184] Siddy come online! Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper.
Soyemia Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:53:00 - [185] Also in fleet nowadays even withb optimal range and everyone gives only 1 volley it cant even get on to of killmails with your arty. Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper.
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:40:00 - [186] Edited by: Hardtail on 13/05/2008 20:39:56 I give it to Liang on account of clever use of bolded words throughout the failsauce that is this thread.
Siddy Minmatar Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:00:00 - [187] Originally by: Soyemia Also in fleet nowadays even withb optimal range and everyone gives only 1 volley it cant even get on to of killmails with your arty. im le depressed :/ my arties blows si much im training rails and finished Gal BS 5. ARE YOU HAPPY NOW CCP? WELL, ARE YOU?
Khai D'mentus Homo Victor	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:37:00 - [188] Originally by: Kaleeb It's funny I can fly all races bs 5 with tech II guns, can you guess which race I tend not to fly? CCP really need to look at Minmatar as a whole concept because it seems to me other races have had cool new features and design ideas over the years and minmatar have remained the same and been neglected Cant agree more tbfh. i just gave up and started training for other races.. it is sad thou, as the minmatar concept was what drawed me in to start with.
Kaleeb Gods Unwanted Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:43:00 - [189] Originally by: Siddy Originally by: Soyemia Also in fleet nowadays even withb optimal range and everyone gives only 1 volley it cant even get on to of killmails with your arty. im le depressed :/ my arties blows si much im training rails and finished Gal BS 5. ARE YOU HAPPY NOW CCP? WELL, ARE YOU? You know what Siddy? They probably are, makes it easier to maintain and update 3 races if no one bothers with the 4th. Minmatar are similar to the Jove in the love they get..... none
Ruah Piskonit Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:31:00 - [190] Originally by: Khai D'mentus Originally by: Kaleeb It's funny I can fly all races bs 5 with tech II guns, can you guess which race I tend not to fly? CCP really need to look at Minmatar as a whole concept because it seems to me other races have had cool new features and design ideas over the years and minmatar have remained the same and been neglected Cant agree more tbfh. i just gave up and started training for other races.. it is sad thou, as the minmatar concept was what drawed me in to start with. Then continue to use your vegabonds in skirmish warfare, and when it comes to battleship and cap-ship things, use a race that is known for its fleet logistics (Gallente and Amarr). Unless there is an RP reason for you forsaking the use of other ships (as is the case with me), then there is nothing preventing you or anyone else in training for the right ships to do the job at hand. Artillery, when used correctly by a competent FC can have a dramatic impact in a fight - I have seen them used effectivly and I am sure I will contiune to see them used. If battleships are continually pigion wholed to operate at medium-long range (150 - 170km) then that is the best ranges for Tachyons - to expect artillery to work effectivly at another races optimal is not the wepon systems fault but the inabuility of FCs to think outside of 'support' 'battleship' 'capital' and 'Titan' lines. We expect all the battleships to do the same thing, a smart FC will place their battleships at different ranges - something we see rarely still. The 'solution' presented here all point to the homoginization of artillery. If you feel that hybrids are so much better, or that beams are - then you have the power to train that particular wepon system. ----
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.14 21:42:00 - [191] I love the idea of artillery, but if moving them towards rails brings them towards balance, I'm for it. Let me put it this way - I have an Apoc in my hangar, and I have BS 4/Large Guns 4. I have a maelstrom in my hangar too kitted with 1400 IIs (BS 5) - it's never left my hangar. Is this silly? Maybe. Is it silly to hit 150km with 4 optimal enhancing mods, do jack **** for dps, and have alphas similar to tachyons, but half only the ROF? Yeah, that's kinda dumb. PS. No tank to speak of Astro
EinaruS The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:04:00 - [192] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 06:00:06 Originally by: Siddy Noobs, stay away, and jerk off with your EFT before you come and say anything abaut alpha to me. >__> I can't decide if that was directed to me. Either way, in its current incarnation, alpha strike is meaningless in fleets (read the thread I linked for "proof"). Alpha matters in ganks (which your apoc example is a prime example of). -Liang Ed: By "alpha is useless in fleets", let me rephrase that: Alpha by itself is meaningless in fleets. DPS@165km / EHP is king. you linked something you blabbed out, not the proof. you'd fine Siddy's only stating the truth if you'd really know what you're talking about. alpha in very large fleets may not matter as much but a ship at 50% hull is still doing damage so killing it fast reduces damage and dps of the opposing fleet thus making alpha really important. you might want to consider doing the actual math behind fleets before making those statements and please do not quote me from EFT - A finger...especially the middle one, is worth more than any amount of isk
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:07:00 - [193] Originally by: EinaruS you linked something you blabbed out, not the proof. you'd fine Siddy's only stating the truth if you'd really know what you're talking about. alpha in very large fleets may not matter as much but a ship at 50% hull is still doing damage so killing it fast reduces damage and dps of the opposing fleet thus making alpha really important. you might want to consider doing the actual math behind fleets before making those statements and please do not quote me from EFT And yet again ego gets in the way of the truth. Liang knows what he's talking about.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:32:00 - [194] Originally by: AstroPhobic I love the idea of artillery, but if moving them towards rails brings them towards balance, I'm for it. Let me put it this way - I have an Apoc in my hangar, and I have BS 4/Large Guns 4. I have a maelstrom in my hangar too kitted with 1400 IIs (BS 5) - it's never left my hangar. Is this silly? Maybe. Is it silly to hit 150km with 4 optimal enhancing mods, do jack **** for dps, and have alphas similar to tachyons, but half only the ROF? Yeah, that's kinda dumb. PS. No tank to speak of Astro Same here. I'd love to use my minmatar BS, but atm there's no real point. The other racial BS's I can use do the job better, even though I have fewer skills in them.
Naomi Knight	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:10:00 - [195] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 14/05/2008 23:10:52 Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: EinaruS you linked something you blabbed out, not the proof. you'd fine Siddy's only stating the truth if you'd really know what you're talking about. alpha in very large fleets may not matter as much but a ship at 50% hull is still doing damage so killing it fast reduces damage and dps of the opposing fleet thus making alpha really important. you might want to consider doing the actual math behind fleets before making those statements and please do not quote me from EFT And yet again ego gets in the way of the truth. Liang knows what he's talking about. What? So everybody who thinks differently than Liang is wrong? Liang brings his/her other posts in as proof that is silly. Why would he/she be right and others not??hmm?? Alpha dmg does matter and matar should be the alpha race / hit&run ,so ccp should boost these parts, if they think arties are poor, not dps/tracking what Liang says.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.14 23:17:00 - [196] Originally by: Naomi Knight What? So everybody who thinks differently than Liang is wrong? Liang brings his/her other posts in as proof that is silly. Why would he/she be right and others not??hmm?? Maybe its because I bothered to justify my point of view instead of saying, "I wuz frist tempest pilot ant i r teh pwnwnnwnnw u nooooob!!!!" Just sayin'. Quote: Alpha dmg does matter and matar should be the alpha race / hit&run ,so ccp should boost these parts, if they think arties are poor, not dps/tracking what Liang says. Eh, I wouldn't complain about an alpha boost as long as it didn't affect DPS too much. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.05.15 00:13:00 - [197] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Naomi Knight What? So everybody who thinks differently than Liang is wrong? Liang brings his/her other posts in as proof that is silly. Why would he/she be right and others not??hmm?? Maybe its because I bothered to justify my point of view instead of saying, "I wuz frist tempest pilot ant i r teh pwnwnnwnnw u nooooob!!!!" Just sayin'. -Liang seriously, i'd sign a friggin petition if it got you to stfu just once. Just sayin'.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.15 00:31:00 - [198] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/05/2008 00:34:14 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/05/2008 00:31:23 Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia seriously, i'd sign a friggin petition if it got you to stfu just once. Just sayin'. ISK works. I'll stop posting in this thread for 100M ISK. :) -Liang Ed: Besides, I just got back from a 24 hour break from forum whoring. :) Ed2: BTW, Why don't you post something constructive? I reailze that personal attacks are all the rage in this thread, but... :) -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.15 00:58:00 - [199] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 15/05/2008 00:58:19 Originally by: Naomi Knight What? So everybody who thinks differently than Liang is wrong? Liang brings his/her other posts in as proof that is silly. Why would he/she be right and others not??hmm?? Alpha dmg does matter and matar should be the alpha race / hit&run ,so ccp should boost these parts, if they think arties are poor, not dps/tracking what Liang says. You're going to disregard a 10+ page discussion on snipers and artillery because it's what... not related? Maybe if you read the thread, your head wouldn't be so far stuck up your own ass. I understand the need to keep artillery it's own flavor. But right now, its flavor is suck. It's not better at anything than any weapon, at all. In any way. Alpha by 1%? Sure, that's AWESOME. Anyway.
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.15 03:08:00 - [200] I have flown with an Amarr pilot for over 40 months (he's my CEO and good friend) and i know how damn good they are and can be. There was a time when they're ships seemed very similar, and I didn't deny that the Apoc was pretty boring and bad, but Arma (my CEO) always fitted them well, and he always pwned with them. I've seen his Tach-Abaddon do over 1000 dps, almost taking down an armor tanked battleship, when he was 1vs4 battleships. I also know that he trained up for Howitzers and Tempests cause he liked their idea so much. Then he realized that he couldn't get near the same DPS (i think like 400 less), and their tracking wasn't good. My friend, who has flown both types, strongly supports using Tachs, as they are much better. I fly a Tempest, and while it's basically impossible to fit anything after the 1400's, they really aren't that good. They are fun and exciting, but so not worth it. The alpha is nice, about the same as Tachyons, but the rof is soooo much worse. Basically this day and age, when things orbiting at 150km can't be hit cause they have a mwd, basically means that there is no point to use the guns. The guns, are truly embarassing nowadays. Considering how much Minmatar ships take for training already, they used to be feared when a skilled pilot came around. Nowadays they are just laughed at unless they are in a vagabond or rapier. I really wish that 1400's were feared again. I remember when Minny BS's were good with ridiculous SP. Now they are just no matter your SP. (i guess Phoon can be good, but it never fits howitzers) The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Ortos Abyssus Incendia THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.15 06:34:00 - [201] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I really wish that 1400's were feared again. I remember when Minny BS's were good with ridiculous SP. Now they are just no matter your SP. (i guess Phoon can be good, but it never fits howitzers) And the allready ridiculous SP just got even more ridiculous.
Isonkon Serikain Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.16 18:43:00 - [202] IMO, Siddy is forgetting to mention the latest nerf to 1400's... The new tracking computer and sensor booster script system makes harder to decently fit a tempest to use 1400's... You have to use more slot resources to get locking range/time/ and tracking range/speed needed to make the 1400's worth it. I know this affects all ships, but the result is sniping with 1400's is kinda lame nowadays. I really wish tracking comps and sensor boosters were returned to their old days.
Isonkon Serikain Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.05.16 18:48:00 - [203] Originally by: Megan Maynard AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNND Putting arty's on any minmatar ship is stupid. USE AUTOS. That's the point of this thread, dummy. If arties were any good people would use them. We are here clamoring to restore some of their usefulness.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:13:00 - [204] I read this treath & I am shocked you guys are only thinking about fleet fights etc. Remember that CCP wanted to focus more on smaller gangs (small/medium gangs). In those kind of "smaller" gangs an alpha strike would be just nice to have. It will make you feel special when you get the message "Wrecking for 3000". Even if any minmatar BS isn't good in a fleet fight, they are good in supportive roles: Just think about the Carrier, The Recons, The Dictors & The HAC's. Each race has its good points & bad points. But I would be not be happy to see that artillery will become more like the other guns. An reason that you choose a race is because of their "special" stuff. One of those special stuff for minmatar is alpha strikes. If you remove that special stuff & you will try every single race almost the same what is point of choosing your race because you like their tactics? You will either choose for the race that requires the least skillpoints to get to a surtain "goal" or you just choose for their looks. I fly minmatar at this moment. I would like to see minmatar ships giving an hugh Alpha & supprise the enemy with it no matter how. Thats make minmatar special & therefore I feel special too. Remember that the only gooood thing that the Minmatar have is their speed. Alpha would be a nice addition too that.
Jalif Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:15:00 - [205] Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I have flown with an Amarr pilot for over 40 months (he's my CEO and good friend) and i know how damn good they are and can be. There was a time when they're ships seemed very similar, and I didn't deny that the Apoc was pretty boring and bad, but Arma (my CEO) always fitted them well, and he always pwned with them. I've seen his Tach-Abaddon do over 1000 dps, almost taking down an armor tanked battleship, when he was 1vs4 battleships. I also know that he trained up for Howitzers and Tempests cause he liked their idea so much. Then he realized that he couldn't get near the same DPS (i think like 400 less), and their tracking wasn't good. My friend, who has flown both types, strongly supports using Tachs, as they are much better. I fly a Tempest, and while it's basically impossible to fit anything after the 1400's, they really aren't that good. They are fun and exciting, but so not worth it. The alpha is nice, about the same as Tachyons, but the rof is soooo much worse. Basically this day and age, when things orbiting at 150km can't be hit cause they have a mwd, basically means that there is no point to use the guns. The guns, are truly embarassing nowadays. Considering how much Minmatar ships take for training already, they used to be feared when a skilled pilot came around. Nowadays they are just laughed at unless they are in a vagabond or rapier. I really wish that 1400's were feared again. I remember when Minny BS's were good with ridiculous SP. Now they are just no matter your SP. (i guess Phoon can be good, but it never fits howitzers) What he said. An other reason to make 1400 easier to handle (artillery in general)
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.16 20:26:00 - [206] Originally by: Jalif I read this treath & I am shocked you guys are only thinking about fleet fights etc. Remember that CCP wanted to focus more on smaller gangs (small/medium gangs). In those kind of "smaller" gangs an alpha strike would be just nice to have. It will make you feel special when you get the message "Wrecking for 3000". At present, alpha strike doesn't even make up for it in small gangs, just an fyi. Most of my complaint is that increasing alpha at the expense of ROF gimps its performance in fleets. Additionally, fleets are more and more becoming the norm, with even small alliances fielding 100 man fleets. More constructive and informative threads can be found here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=770992 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=736133 This one got sidetracked by a lot of **** talking (some of which I am responsible for). Hopefully my other contributions to the forums will make up for an occasional gaffe. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Hudsonn Coded Arms Corp	Posted - 2008.05.16 22:16:00 - [207] Ok, here's my take on 1400's. Having flown minmatar for the last 4 years, i can safely say i've hardly used them. Even less so now tbh. Auto's all the way for me. ___________________________
Uncle Smokey	Posted - 2008.05.16 22:25:00 - [208] bost heavy!!! .:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. \o/ EVERYBODY SAY HELL YEAH! \o/
Corphus The NewOrder Black-Out	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:34:00 - [209] Edited by: Corphus on 17/05/2008 20:41:14 Originally by: Liang Nuren Really, that's like saying that the only thing artillery should be good for is 4v1 gate ganks. Alpha strike is somewhat meaningless with today's hitpoints. -Liang you see here why arties need to be changed. P.S.: i read your thread. it doesnt point out why a bs with a theoretical volley dmg of say 6-8k of dmg every 20 seconds would be worthless.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.17 23:11:00 - [210] Originally by: Corphus you see here why arties need to be changed. P.S.: i read your thread. it doesnt point out why a bs with a theoretical volley dmg of say 6-8k of dmg every 20 seconds would be worthless. It's not the alpha so much as the ROF and raw DPS. Alpha, in its current incarnation, is useless. IF the alpha were boosted rather significantly, and the DPS stayed the same, you'd see the eight seconds of win being more reasonable. They would still not be so handy in fleet battles (and it would actually be a nerf for this usage of artillery). All things considered, I'm ok with nerfing arties for fleet ... as long as the people who are pushing for higher alpha / same ROF fully acknowledge that that's what they're asking for. I wouldn't really want to hear in a few months or a year how Arties suck in "everyday fleet PVP", ya know? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.

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