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Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:19:00 - [91] I think a compromise would be the best fix honestly. Something between what Siddy and Liang are fighting over, haha. There's nothing wrong imho with making arties based around a bigger alpha (even if it's not as big as it once was), as it would give them some personality. Maybe make the 1400's significantly slower as suggested, and let them have a higher alpha as a result. 1200's need slightly better tracking/clip size/slight dps boost imo, and will be closer to rail's than 1400's but not identical. Both need to be *****ble though, haha, which atm they aren't really. That way, if you want huge alpha, go with the huge 1400mm cannons. If you want a closer-to-rails setup, go with 1200's. And depending on your fleet tactics (i.e. whether you want to try to make use of high alpha or not), choose appropriately. I'm just personally hoping CCP will give the cannons some love soon, as these threads are so common these days and I think the flaws in the current artillery guns are obvious.
Trefnis Minmatar R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:27:00 - [92] Originally by: Liang Nuren Wait, you mean that I might just have a clue about fleet fights? Oh noes!?!!?!?-Liang Ok i tried to be polite but as you called me a fool... I didnt say you have a clue about fleet fights, i said you might been there, as i see now you know **** about artys and matari, you say you fly pest on alt that you wont tell his name... as for know ill treat you as someone who use ishtars and falcons only, not much at that.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:29:00 - [93] Originally by: Trefnis Ok i tried to be polite but as you called me a fool... You call that **posting earlier in the thread "polite"? Wow. Quote: I didnt say you have a clue about fleet fights, i said you might been there, as i see now you know ** about artys and matari, you say you fly pest on alt that you wont tell his name... as for know ill treat you as someone who use ishtars and falcons only, not much at that. I don't give a damn how you treat me. I've already won this thread, and you guys are just sitting there whining "But I want the HP boost reversed!! WAAAAAAAMBULANCE!". :) -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:31:00 - [94] Liang youve no idea at all, you just want artys to be like rails, youve no sense of tatics or skill. A high alpha arty can give you so many different options available to you and it would give artys there own role not turn them into capless rails with a little less dmg which to be quite honest would be boring as hell. All you keep going on about is massive fleet fights, what about smaller flets that could make great tatical use of a high alpha doing and runs, ive seen evoke make great use of artys in some of there fleets because high alpha opens up so many more options.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Prez21 Liang youve no idea at all, you just want artys to be like rails, youve no sense of tatics or skill. A high alpha arty can give you so many different options available to you and it would give artys there own role not turn them into capless rails with a little less dmg which to be quite honest would be boring as hell. All you keep going on about is massive fleet fights, what about smaller flets that could make great tatical use of a high alpha doing and runs, ive seen evoke make great use of artys in some of there fleets because high alpha opens up so many more options. Read the thread I linked, and you'll see the answer to that question. Also, I've seen use of alpha as well, but you're asking to pigeon hole an entire weapons class to merely be decent at breaking logistics chains and passive drakes. Meanwhile, they'll suck at absolutely everything else. You have proof that I'm wrong: BRING IT. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Trefnis Minmatar R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:37:00 - [96] Originally by: Liang Nuren I've already won this thread, WAAAAAAAMBULANCE!". -Liang Yes sorry my mistake.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:37:00 - [97] Originally by: Naomi Knight My posts are there too in "his" number topic :) And he still brings that stupid 100vs100 fleet fight comparison , which is meaningless. And I don't recall your posts adding anything to that thread because... they didn't. If the current Alpha of artillery can provide any useful advantage in a hypothetical "perfect situation", they how are they supposed to have any advantage in a real situation? There is only a small window (2-3 shots) in which a ship with higher alpha has ANY advantage over a ship with higher DPS. Sadly, the "perfect" situation present requires at least 20 ships, as artillery doesn't have enough alpha to kill anything of consequence in 2-3 volleys otherwise. Personally, I'd be happy with increased clip size, a little more DPS. If that DPS comes with more alpha, even better. Fixing T1 ammo, adding a fall off bonus to Tremor, and making quake more useful would be nice.
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:42:00 - [98] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Prez21 Liang youve no idea at all, you just want artys to be like rails, youve no sense of tatics or skill. A high alpha arty can give you so many different options available to you and it would give artys there own role not turn them into capless rails with a little less dmg which to be quite honest would be boring as hell. All you keep going on about is massive fleet fights, what about smaller flets that could make great tatical use of a high alpha doing and runs, ive seen evoke make great use of artys in some of there fleets because high alpha opens up so many more options. Read the thread I linked, and you'll see the answer to that question. Also, I've seen use of alpha as well, but you're asking to pigeon hole an entire weapons class to merely be decent at breaking logistics chains and passive drakes. Meanwhile, they'll suck at absolutely everything else. You have proof that I'm wrong: BRING IT. -Liang Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:44:00 - [99] I can't say I really follow the argument that giving them a higher alpha/slower rof/higher dps would make them suck at everything other than popping logistics. I think any change CCP would make to the alpha would be moderate at best, and so it wouldn't be all that different from current game mechanics (it's not like they'd make it a huge alpha and 1 shot every 20 seconds ). I think in most situations pilots can adapt to make use of the higher alpha. And it at least makes sense to me that a higher alpha would open up more tactical possibilities in fleet combat. TBH I don't see the harm, but I think more is needed besides a higher alpha to bring artillery weapons in-line with the other turrets.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Personally, I'd be happy with increased clip size, a little more DPS. If that DPS comes with more alpha, even better. Fixing T1 ammo, adding a fall off bonus to Tremor, and making quake more useful would be nice. Sounds very reasonable to me.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:52:00 - [101] You know, I have to admit. This is an exceedingly fun thread. Mostly, it's fun because I'm being told that I don't have a clue, that I'm a nub, or that since I haven't been playing since 2003 that my opinion is worthless. Then I return the heat a bit, and they go off whining. Know what, guys, I really thirst for some intelligent discussion about the state of artillery. You want alpha boosted. Fine... that's a completely reasonable request. Bear these things in mind, though: - The HP boost intentionally nerfed alpha strike - Lowering DPS dramatically nerfs PVE -- High DPS and fast target switching is required in PVE - Making ROF worse drastically nerfs artillery for fleets -- Faster ROF allows for faster target switching -- Fleet effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS@160km / EHP -- Fleet sizes these days easily alpha strike battleships, regardless of alpha -- Breaking the fleet up into "manageable segments" does not alter this I'll add more to this list if you guys bite the "intelligent discussion" bullet and help me turn this from a flamefest. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:54:00 - [102] Originally by: Prez21 Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them. Sure, right after you post your all of your full API keys on this thread for all to see. Also, I'd like your full name and address. And phone number. Seriously, last time I flew Liang through PURE space I got ***loads of smack and a real life death threat. You think I want to expose my main to that *? ** that. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Kelbesque Crystalis Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:57:00 - [103] Originally by: Prez21 Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them. No one is saying that artillery should have LESS alpha. Just that if time between shot was much longer, you'd be even less effective in fleet fights due to overkill and not being able to bear your guns on a different target as fast. That and everyone seems to either be reminiscing of a time that will never return, or wholesale over estimating the effect of high alpha.
mama guru Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 22:59:00 - [104] Edited by: mama guru on 12/05/2008 23:00:35 Edited by: mama guru on 12/05/2008 23:00:17 Do what they did to drones. Double the rate of fire and the damage modifier. DPS stays the same. Edit yeah, double is a bit much. But atleast some 50% slower rate of fire coupled with just as much increase in damage mod. EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:01:00 - [105] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 12/05/2008 23:02:04 Originally by: mama guru Do what they did to drones. Double the rate of fire and the damage modifier. DPS stays the same. That only works until you consider that drones don't have a damage mod. Well, sentries do, but their ROF was unchanged. :) -Liang Ed: It also doesn't address the fact that you're wasting the overwhelming amount of your damage on alpha striking an effectively dead ship, and nor does it change the fact that you wouldn't be able to change targets fast enough to matter. It's really not a bad entry into the discussion though. :) -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:02:00 - [106] Originally by: Liang Nuren You know, I have to admit. This is an exceedingly fun thread. Mostly, it's fun because I'm being told that I don't have a clue, that I'm a nub, or that since I haven't been playing since 2003 that my opinion is worthless. Then I return the heat a bit, and they go off whining. Know what, guys, I really thirst for some intelligent discussion about the state of artillery. You want alpha boosted. Fine... that's a completely reasonable request. Bear these things in mind, though: - The HP boost intentionally nerfed alpha strike - Lowering DPS dramatically nerfs PVE -- High DPS and fast target switching is required in PVE - Making ROF worse drastically nerfs artillery for fleets -- Faster ROF allows for faster target switching -- Fleet effectiveness is 100% determined by DPS@160km / EHP -- Fleet sizes these days easily alpha strike battleships, regardless of alpha -- Breaking the fleet up into "manageable segments" does not alter this I'll add more to this list if you guys bite the "intelligent discussion" bullet and help me turn this from a flamefest. -Liang Ok say ccp gives artys an increased clip size and improves the rof, of course they will need to take something away which will be some of its alpha strike, so after this im left with apoor mans mega? Why even train for to use artys when you would be inferior to all other sniping bs. Atleast with the higher alpha you get a choice and not everyone flys in huge fleets, we had a nice fight with bruce the other day with only around 25-30 bs in our fleet, bruce were using remoterep bs and te higher alpha would have given us a realy useful option, instead you seem to want us to fly capless megathron clone with poor dmg.
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis Originally by: Prez21 Can you please reveal who your minmatar alt is because i dont think you have much experience with artys. I dont think you realise how useful high alpha dmg can be in gangs and fleets. If i remember rightly xenobytes used to use pests extremely effectively outnumbered by using high alpha with drive bys, what you suggest in no way improves artys it doesnt offer anything except take away any unique feel to them. No one is saying that artillery should have LESS alpha. Just that if time between shot was much longer, you'd be even less effective in fleet fights due to overkill and not being able to bear your guns on a different target as fast. That and everyone seems to either be reminiscing of a time that will never return, or wholesale over estimating the effect of high alpha. The thing is ccp arnt going to give artys an improved rof without taking away some of its alphastrike.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:09:00 - [108] Originally by: Prez21 Ok say ccp gives artys an increased clip size and improves the rof, of course they will need to take something away which will be some of its alpha strike, so after this im left with apoor mans mega? Why would they have to take anything away. I don't recall them taking anything away from pulse with their recent 25% tracking increase. Artillery is broken. We all agree about that. It's a straight out boost - not a trade. Quote: Why even train for to use artys when you are be inferior to all other sniping bs. I fixed it for you. And there isn't currently a good reason to train arties, except that you're closer to it than any other weapons system. Quote: Atleast with the higher alpha you get a choice and not everyone flys in huge fleets, we had a nice fight with bruce the other day with only around 25-30 bs in our fleet, bruce were using remoterep bs and te higher alpha would have given us a realy useful option, instead you seem to want us to fly capless megathron clone with poor dmg. Sigh. Are you even reading my posts, and what I'm asking for? I'm asking for: - Clip size, so that you don't waste 13% of your DPS on reloading... and that's discounting lag. - Tracking, so that you can operate better when aligned (maybe even at battle speed!), and don't miss so many shots. What's the use of having 10 BILLION DAMAGE alpha strikes when none of your shots connect? - Not to further nerf the ships for fleet combat. Nerfing ROF (even coupled with higher damage) is a huge nerf to this form of combat. I'm not even asking for huge increases in clip size or tracking - just something that doesn't make the guns frustrating to use. Even after that, we're likely to still see artillery need another boost, but it's better to take these things slowly, than to overreact and be forced to nerf it. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:10:00 - [109] Originally by: Prez21 The thing is ccp arnt going to give artys an improved rof without taking away some of its alphastrike. That depends. Is there any reason to currently fly an arty ship? No. There isn't a really good reason these days. You're operating on the assumption that Arties are fine now. They aren't. We're asking for straight up boosts. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Prez21 coracao ardente Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:21:00 - [110] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Prez21 The thing is ccp arnt going to give artys an improved rof without taking away some of its alphastrike. That depends. Is there any reason to currently fly an arty ship? No. There isn't a really good reason these days. You're operating on the assumption that Arties are fine now. They aren't. We're asking for straight up boosts. -Liang No if i thought artys were fine i wouldnt be asking for achange. So if your saying why not give artys a higher rof and keep the alpha, why not increase the alpha but keep the rof? You talk rubbish about how pests dont deal enough dmg to primaries because of there slow rof, they are quick enough not to miss out and thats talking from experience in fleetbattles and just in theory like i think you talk. As ive already said, plz explain to me how your proposed changes dont just make arties into capless poor mens rails?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:35:00 - [111] Originally by: Prez21 No if i thought artys were fine i wouldnt be asking for achange. Then, at best, you're presenting strawman arguments by saying that CCP would have to nerf arties in some other way. Quote: So if your saying why not give artys a higher rof and keep the alpha, why not increase the alpha but keep the rof? This would be fine, and is one of my preferred solutions (I just don't have much faith that we can get it). Clip size really has to go up though... I spend 13% of my time reloading FFS. In laggy situations, it's far more than that. Quote: You talk rubbish about how pests dont deal enough dmg to primaries because of there slow rof, they are quick enough not to miss out and thats talking from experience in fleetbattles and just in theory like i think you talk. Holy Runon Batman. I'm saying: - High ROF ships can quickly switch targets -- High ROF fleets of sufficient size can alpha strike 3 ships for every 2 from arty ships ---- It is trivial to get fleets together of sufficient size to make this work ---- High ROF ships are able to bring more actual damage to bear due to less wasted damage ---- Low ROF Arty ships missed a killmail ------ This will be more common as you decrease ROF Yes, I've actually missed out on kills because the primary died before my guns cycled. Also, will you decide whether or not I've been in a fleet before or not? Either way, I have been involved for 5-10 hrs/day since before the NAP campaign started against INSRG. I guess INSRG hasn't been in any fleets in the last month. Quote: As ive already said, plz explain to me how your proposed changes dont just make arties into capless poor mens rails? Explain how they do. I'm asking for tracking and clip size. Hell, your accusation here is about as accurate as me saying that increasing alpha on arties makes them cruise missiles. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Corphus The NewOrder Black-Out	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:46:00 - [112] i agree with sid. the point is that by increasing alpha strike potential a tempest wing can deal the same amout of damage in shorter time or even in one or two volleys than say twice the number of non artillery bs. this is also aplicable to cruisers like the rupture. imo the situation where minmatar should shine are the first 10 seconds after warp in. they arent desinged for longwinded standoffs and they should be geared respectiveley. i usually compare two similar weapon systems here: cruise and arties act similar by dealing volley dmg over dps. ratting ravens utilize volley dmg to break the rats down while they cant repair the amouts of dmg in the intervals before they get hit again. same goes or should go for artillery turrets. the plan shouldnt be to deal enuff dps over time to slowly break someones tank. it should be not giving the enemy the time to keep up with the repairing of the dmg amounts received. concentrating more firepower with less effort is the key for minmatar warfare. they cant tank but their weapons neglet the enemies ability to tank, consequenteley evening the battlefield.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:53:00 - [113] Originally by: Corphus the point is that by increasing alpha strike potential a tempest wing can deal the same amout of damage in shorter time or even in one or two volleys than say twice the number of non artillery bs. The problem with this line of thinking is that they can't. By the time you warp in, lock, fire off a volley or two, and warp out, you're already behind Apocs (for example) in damage. Really, though, the clencher here is that the Matari BS's don't have the mids available to get the required range and lock time necessary to pull it off. Read the thread that I linked in my OP (not THE OP). Quote: this is also aplicable to cruisers like the rupture. imo the situation where minmatar should shine are the first 10 seconds after warp in. they arent desinged for longwinded standoffs and they should be geared respectiveley. Really, that's like saying that the only thing artillery should be good for is 4v1 gate ganks. Alpha strike is somewhat meaningless with today's hitpoints. Quote: Arties = Cruise No, I don't think that's really how Ravens break down the target (alpha). That would only be true if rats actually repaired, and the alpha strike was significant enough to damage the ship beyond shields every volley. Anyway, DPS is what kills in that situation. You seem pretty level headed, so I'm interested in what you have to say to the points I raised in the linked thread. Especially if you muster a rebuttal to it (probably best to put it here). -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Bronson Hughes The. Conspiracy	Posted - 2008.05.12 23:55:00 - [114] [Time Out] The majority of people in this thread agree on the following points: 1. Artillery as a weapon system needs a boost. 2. Things like buffing clip size, tracking, and DPS are good ways of doing this because they help all the time, regardless of the situation. 3. High alpha strike weapons are useful for small gangs and/or hit-and-run fights and/or very highly coordinated larger fleets. Things that people don't agree on: 1. Giving Artillery a buff to alpha strike (i.e. higher damage, lower RoF, same DPS) may or may not be useful for large fleet engagements in general. Let's focus on these things instead of ripping each others heads off and maybe we'll get somewhere. [/Time Out] -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:05:00 - [115] Originally by: Bronson Hughes 1. Artillery as a weapon system needs a boost. 2. Things like buffing clip size, tracking, and DPS are good ways of doing this because they help all the time, regardless of the situation. 3. High alpha strike weapons are useful for small gangs and/or hit-and-run fights and/or very highly coordinated larger fleets. Things that people don't agree on: 1. Giving Artillery a buff to alpha strike (i.e. higher damage, lower RoF, same DPS) may or may not be useful for large fleet engagements in general. Not really. 1. Yes, we all agree arty needs ____________ Them: 1. Artillery should have lower DPS than present, and much higher alpha strikes. 2. High alpha, lower-than-present ROF & DPS would not nerf arties in fleets. 3. Tracking/Clip size boosts would make rails exact copies of rails Me: 1. Arties should have clip size and tracking increases. 2. Tracking/Clip size boosts have nothing to do with rails. 3. Alpha increases are fine, as long as DPS stays the same or greater with 4 damage mods, and ROF stays similar -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
ardik TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:19:00 - [116] Let's compare a max-skilled tach abaddon with 1400 pest, both with 3x tracking mods, 3x damage mods, t2 ammo: Abaddon first, pest second. DPS 502/356 Tracking 0.0054/0.003 Alpha 3453/3475 Optimal 168/152 They both run into significant resist walls since shield tanked rokhs are becoming more common in fleets, making exp/kin not as attractive as it once was. All in all, they are somewhat equal on alpha, but on absolutely everything else the abaddon is up to as much almost 70% better, which is just plain ridiculous. Some might say that your ammo supply in the abaddon might run dry a bit sooner(since you have to fit cap injector to run it), but very few fights last long enough for that to make a difference. Make tracking comps(since min have to use their mids for tracking mods) worth using again and add 15% or so to the damage mod of arties and I think they'd become decent. That way they'd be doing some alpha worth mentioning again and might have a chance hitting target painted, webbed, mwd'ing battleships.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:20:00 - [117] Originally by: "OP" Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more. The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles They don't say less DPS. They say same. I think it's so weak atm, it could use both an alpha boost and a DPS boost. But just pointing out that they don't advocate less DPS as you claim.
Veryez	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Liang Nuren Not really. 1. Yes, we all agree arty needs ____________ Them: 1. Artillery should have lower DPS than present, and much higher alpha strikes. 2. High alpha, lower-than-present ROF & DPS would not nerf arties in fleets. 3. Tracking/Clip size boosts would make rails exact copies of rails Me: 1. Arties should have clip size and tracking increases. 2. Tracking/Clip size boosts have nothing to do with rails. 3. Alpha increases are fine, as long as DPS stays the same or greater with 4 damage mods, and ROF stays similar -Liang Actually Liang you are misquoting Siddy: Originally by: Siddy Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more. The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles He doesn't want a DPS drop.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:25:00 - [119] Originally by: Veryez Actually Liang you are misquoting Siddy: Originally by: Siddy Simpple, increase damage mod, decrease RoF. Dont change DPS, boost the alpha strike 150% - 200%, or maybe more. The opening salvo of 1400mm's must hurt, again! Because in this age of 1600mm platewhoring buffertanks with EANM's and remoeterepping capitals, alpha is meaningles He doesn't want a DPS drop. IIRC, lowering ROF will naturally result in a DPS drop once you factor in damage mods. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Boz Well	Posted - 2008.05.13 00:30:00 - [120] It all depends on how it's implemented. He's not advocating lower DPS, he says so explicitly, and it doesn't really make sense imo to assume he's advocating lower DPS because one possible implementation of his idea might result in lower dps with damage mods on.

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