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[quote=CCP Explorer]But I have been talking to the UI developers today

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:21:00 - [91] So, summa summarum about this rabble is that EVE UI sucks donkeys balls and having a UI that people can fiddle around is bad? Look how much custom UI modifications you can do in that other game. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here by not reading the entire thread before responding to a page 1 post. So hoping not many commented on this. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Unless you limit commands to so few in number, that you limit possible actions. That Eve's context menus are easy to slide off into the wrong alternative, that's where the improvement can be made. A radial menu with subcategories is still a context menu, just shaped differently, and harder to navigate with a scroll wheel. Shortcuts are even better, but there is no reason not to have both. The more shortcuts available to those who want them the better, that's for sure. So more shortcuts, better layout for context menue, that's what's needed. And a different color for active modules. Sure Eve UI could improve, just don't ruin it by imitating macs. Or consoles. Or UI's made for computer challenged people. Bad moves in UI design bring to mind Elder Scrolls III : Morrowind, which had a decent UI. Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion had a %&%ññ# terrible UI, which came close to ruining the game all on it's own.
Vyktor Abyss EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 08:11:00 - [93] Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? Yes, when you love something money doesn't matter for me. I admit I've no kids or financial responsibilities though other than needing beer money.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:13:00 - [94] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. That looks like you're looking for someone to fix your website... Good intention, but someone who'd want to fix the ingame UI probably wouldn't want to fix web stuff. ;-) EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:15:00 - [95] Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? How do you know it's better paying? Icelandic salaries (and living costs unfortunately) are nothing to sneeze at. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:28:00 - [96] UI is terrible and I've lost ships thanks to it. Windows jumping around, context menus suddenly having other options where you are used to click. Forgetting overview settings, targeting reticules going offscreen. Theres just no logic. Ofc there will always be ccp fanbois screaming everything is alright and if you dont like it quit or in this case join ccp hehe. And on the other side rude people calling ccps competence into question. But bottom line is, the UI needs a serious revamp, post haste. ------ We live in an expanding universe. All of it is trying to get away from Chuck Norris.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:46:00 - [97] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? How do you know it's better paying? Icelandic salaries (and living costs unfortunately) are nothing to sneeze at. As well as moving expenses, and the high costs of getting a work visa... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Menacing Presence	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:59:00 - [98] Originally by: Xaen The fact that you think so only serves to make it clear that you haven't the slightest inkling about HCI. Originally by: Xaen ...require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary Originally by: Xaen ...unnecessary physical user actions to 2,600% more than necessary. Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. Originally by: Xaen But a real UI developer will write code that results in a good UI, not create the Fuster Cluck we attempt to interact with EVE on. Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Let's let you loose with a magic pen and get us an AI wtih all of EVE's required functionality into intuitively designed hot menus shall we. 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game .
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:28:00 - [99] Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . You believe in good enough, some people don't. Thankfully there are some working for CCP. Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Menacing Presence Spineless alt drivel You believe in good enough, some people don't. Thankfully there are some working for CCP. Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. Don't feed the trolls Lubomir! ------ We live in an expanding universe. All of it is trying to get away from Chuck Norris.
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:02:00 - [101] Originally by: Lubomir Penev =Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. I liked Escrow... I could sit in Jita refreshing the list waiting for free stuff. -----
Rheddin	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:25:00 - [102] the ui. can we please stop UI updates blocking screen updates? Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? just draw me empty boxes, and fill them in as you get the info, please stop it freezing the game while we wewait for the UI info to arrive :)
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:31:00 - [103] Originally by: Menacing Presence Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. And why is Eve the only game that gives me cramps in my right hand when playing for a longer time? There are tons of other games I've played during those 5 years and Eve stands out pretty much. The repetitive stuff simply takes a lot of mouse movement and resembles a lot of the older games of 10 years ago or even older. Actually it reminds me of Elite II on the Atari and moving a fridge over the desk called a ball mouse.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Qui Shon Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337.
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:48:00 - [105] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337. And to think you could get that with a mouse that doesn't look ******** and isn't stupidly overpriced. I imagine they're rather uncomfortable too. -----
Boombastica Majority 13	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Havohej If it were THAT ******* bad, none of you pussies would've played past the 14-day trial. This made me laugh. Thanks for making my day worthwhile.
Caleese New Eden Research And Design School	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:54:00 - [107] I have to admit I put up with the UI and all it's "quirks" up until I tried to overheat a module. ----------------- Think of someone you consider of average intelligence... now realise this. Half the worlds population is dumber than that person. How does the world survive such stupidity?
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:11:00 - [108] Xaen, please apply for that position and help provide us with a better UI! I beg you. Screw your existing life, friends and family, you have more important things to work on! You can always buy new friends. Seriously though. Don't let your having raised important points on the forum in an enthusiastic and elaborate manner stop you from applying. ____________
Tradinea	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:31:00 - [109] We never should have given up the command line UI.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:38:00 - [110] Originally by: Rheddin Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Because it's all one thread. I think Stackless Python limits them to that. In any case, if any part of a process thread stops, the whole thing will stop, which is what you see. Kinda like, 16-bit DOS. You're asking for the communication sub-component to be executed as a separate thread (perhaps even on a different processor) than the graphics sub-component. A valid thing to ask for.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:44:00 - [111] What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:51:00 - [112] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" Actually i've only skimmed this thread, so maybe I missed it, but I'm pretty sure he's been saying that anyone with even one single class on interface design should be put in charge. If your interface would get a failing grade in one of these classes, it's probably a sign that maybe it needs a little work. And trust me, this game would fail. Bad. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:53:00 - [113] Edited by: Tippia on 14/05/2008 14:56:58 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Unless you limit commands to so few in number, that you limit possible actions. …and that was why Apple had to abandon the idea of single-button mice very early on and instead started to pile functionality into context-sensitive pop-up menus. These days, the standard Mac mice come with four mouse buttons (plus a fifth, emulated button) and x-and-y-scroll capable (not just scroll+tilt) scroll wheels. Or, put another way: if you're going to quote some precedent as proof that some given way of doing things is "the right way to go", first make sure that "right way" hasn't been long since abandoned after being found completely braindead.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:11:00 - [114] wow we seem to have a few kids in this thread. Anyways the UI does need improvement and thanks ccp for looking into it
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Rheddin Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Because it's all one thread. I think Stackless Python limits them to that. In any case, if any part of a process thread stops, the whole thing will stop, which is what you see. Kinda like, 16-bit DOS. You're asking for the communication sub-component to be executed as a separate thread (perhaps even on a different processor) than the graphics sub-component. A valid thing to ask for. Python sucks so hard--why Eve doesn't use a WoW style code where everything loads but their visual incarnations kick in after a few seconds I don't know. It seems thats the lesser of two evils than to completely cripple the client for a simple market query or session change. Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it. So it makes more sense to have a forum advocate drop everything and go to iceland than it is to expect CCP to bring the UI up to the standard of all modern games? Look how stupid you are. Look. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:08:00 - [116] Originally by: Lumen Atra Google hasn't actually done anything well in terms of presentation, in regards to its main "product" to the masses: its search engine. It is simplistic on the surface, but it has many faults that are taken for granted. "I'm feeling lucky" has zero context unless you have randomly tried it or read about it, for instance. The advanced search page is atrocious, like most advanced search pages. You missed the point by miles. Yahoo search used to work "well enough". But that didn't stop them from starting one they thought could do better. The EVE UI works......well enough to provide access to do everything you can do, but it's a far cry from being as good as it could be. Their UI is irrelevant to my point. Originally by: Lumen Atra The real questionable thing about this thread is the utter lack of anything useful presented by the original post. Fair enough. But check the creation date on that thread. Or even the last edit date. Should be an eye opener. Originally by: Lumen Atra There is a big difference between criticism and constructive criticism. One points out a flaw; the other gives ideas for change. Guess which one is more useful and could actually be used by a developer. Guess which one leaves a developer to blindly and randomly try different things. Guess you haven't seen the 11 page UI thread linked in my sig? There are tons of concrete ideas from myself and others there. Some with detailed explanations. Some with screenshot prototypes! - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:14:00 - [117] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here by not reading the entire thread before responding to a page 1 post. So hoping not many commented on this. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. I wholeheartedly agree, but the reasons behind the one button thing were sound. Context menus are a crutch. At best. Originally by: Qui Shon Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Actually there is a great deal wrong with them. And yes they're sometimes appropriate, but hardly anywhere near as much as EVE uses them. Originally by: Qui Shon A radial menu with subcategories is still a context menu, just shaped differently, and harder to navigate with a scroll wheel. Radial menus are not an improvement. Eve already has one, but the invocation delay is so long as to make it slower than using the selection window. Originally by: Qui Shon Shortcuts are even better, but there is no reason not to have both. The more shortcuts available to those who want them the better, that's for sure. So more shortcuts, better layout for context menue, that's what's needed. And a different color for active modules. This is the heart of my giant UI thread. That and getting rid of the insane decision to default all alphanumeric keystrokes into chat. If I wanted that I'd use IRC. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Menacing Presence Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. People who can tell the difference between a good UI and a poor one. Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Originally by: Menacing Presence 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game . Actions, not exertions. It's a measure of how long and complex the actions required are to get the software to do what the user wants. A UI that requires fewer actions and less time (including time to find the action) is quantifiably better. It looks like it went over your head though. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:22:00 - [119] Originally by: Rheddin the ui. can we please stop UI updates blocking screen updates? Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Lack of proper use of threading. Originally by: Rheddin just draw me empty boxes, and fill them in as you get the info, please stop it freezing the game while we wewait for the UI info to arrive :) Delegating the fetchMeSomeData() action to a worker thread will do precisely this. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Szprinkoth Sponsz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:23:00 - [120] CCP: Call me in 2 years when I finish my interaction design degree OK?

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