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[quote=CCP Explorer]But I have been talking to the UI developers today

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:25:00 - [121] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Google didn't win on usability – they won on content and results. Much like EVE.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Shionoya Risa Originally by: Grarr Dexx Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337. And to think you could get that with a mouse that doesn't look ****** and isn't stupidly overpriced. I imagine they're rather uncomfortable too. I use a Razer Diamond back both at home and at work. It's incredibly comfortable. Weighs almost nothing. Teflon mousefeet resulting in a coefficient of static friction nearly equal to that of kinetic friction. Really easy to click. The drivers/software are complete garbage though. Cost $20 on woot. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs**
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:28:00 - [123] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it. I'd be happier if someone else just up and did it, then if I had to move to Iceland and fix it myself. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:31:00 - [124] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz CCP: Call me in 2 years when I finish my interaction design degree OK? Man, you interrupted my nine hit combo move on this thread. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:32:00 - [125] Just want to pipe in and voice my support of UI improvement. For a software product that has been out this long, to have such an inefficient and buggy User Interface is something worthy of firing developers over.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Google didn't win on usability û they won on content and results. Much like EVE. Google won on being better at the job. Me? I'll take better over sufficient every time. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:40:00 - [127] i just want my drone window to stay where i put it, is that to much to ask!?! ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:44:00 - [128] Drone UI is still terrible. It looks like they used the same monkeys to write the old drone control code to write the new drone control code, but with added features that can have additional bugs with it. /palm forehead
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:54:00 - [129] Originally by: Xaen Google won on being better at the job. …which has surprisingly little to do with UI and HCI, which was his point. Yes, the UI could be better, but to actually improve EVE in a serious way, there are far better things that CCP could spend their resources on, just like Google didn't become better than Yahoo by making a new search interface (in fact, in many ways they made it worse, but the behind-the-scenes improvements were so much better that the end result blew Yahoo away). In short, UI design is not the be-all, end-all method of improvement – do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end?
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:55:00 - [130] Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:57:00 - [131] Originally by: Arthor Dark Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES. Why? Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one?
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:00:00 - [132] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES. Why? Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement, which if fixed, would merely invite more people to form bigger blobs. Fixing the UI is a scalable improvement. Everyone benefits.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:14:00 - [133] Originally by: Xaen I have trouble taking your opinion seriously. Well, you're ice skating uphill here, Sir. Because you are doing your best trying to make people take your opinion seriously. I know how it is to present a case on these forums, and I think you in essence have a good solid ground for your arguments. However, tenacity and arguing against everyone will only make your fervor look like desperation. Take a step back and don't take it personal. Present your arguments and don't bother countering the obvious slander. Don't repeat the same counter arguments and limit your posts and I think you have a stronger position. Good luck Xaen. Black Hand.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Arthor Dark It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement This is where assumptions will hurt you: read what I wrote again, and in which context. I didn't talk about lag, nor about anything specific. I was talking about anything that sits behind the UI, be it gameplay, content, network structure, community, whathaveyou. The UI is a tiny part of the game, and there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. So, again, why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one?
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:19:00 - [135] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Take a step back and don't take it personal. Present your arguments and don't bother countering the obvious slander. Oh I don't, and I'm more amused by trolls than bothered, but I'm such a forum *** I can't help but respond. And holy crap they censored a misspelling of that word. (quote post to see, if misspelled profanity doesn't bother you) Originally by:** Tobias Sjodin Don't repeat the same counter arguments and limit your posts and I think you have a stronger position. Good luck Xaen. Sound advice, and thanks. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
tiptop1980	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:21:00 - [136] Originally by: Menacing Presence Originally by: Xaen The fact that you think so only serves to make it clear that you haven't the slightest inkling about HCI. Originally by: Xaen ...require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary Originally by: Xaen ...unnecessary physical user actions to 2,600% more than necessary. Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. Originally by: Xaen But a real UI developer will write code that results in a good UI, not create the Fuster Cluck we attempt to interact with EVE on. Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Let's let you loose with a magic pen and get us an AI wtih all of EVE's required functionality into intuitively designed hot menus shall we. 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game . QFT.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:27:00 - [137] Originally by: Tippia The UI is a tiny part of the game The UI is the game. Without it, you're just watching a movie. Originally by: Tippia And there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. Tons of systems and areas have no percievable lag, So please provide an example of something that can be improved that would benefit every single player like enhancements to the UI would. Originally by: Tippia Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? The UI is huge. It affects every single player. Every single minute they're playing. Without exception. So again, tell me what else has such broad impact? Server uptime is the only thing I can think of. A skill queue comes close too, but neither is quite in the same league. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:30:00 - [138] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement This is where assumptions will hurt you: read what I wrote again, and in which context. I didn't talk about lag, nor about anything specific. I was talking about anything that sits behind the UI, be it gameplay, content, network structure, community, whathaveyou. The UI is a tiny part of the game, and there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. So, again, why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. New content doesn't amount to much if you have to play it thought a crap-stained UI.
Florio Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:30:00 - [139] Edited by: Florio on 14/05/2008 17:31:00 UI leaves so much to be desired, usability does not seem to have even been a factor in its design. And that's coming from an ardant CCP fan. They should add a little box to those flowcharts of theirs. "Is it ergonomic?"
Hegbard	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:35:00 - [140] Originally by: Xaen Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Erm. You keep repeating that, but it's somewhat misinformed, or simply just completely wrong. Yahoo search that crawled the web didn't come until 2004, between 2000-2004 Yahoo was using Inktomi for more advanced searches and before that they were just stuck with their horribly outdated and manually collected directory. Google came 1998 and kicked out Inktomi, Hotbot and Altavista (at that time, I'm pretty sure Altavista was the biggest) because they offered superior content and a UI that wasn't cluttered by web portal junk that no one wanted to use anyway. Don't compare apples and oranges. For the record, I agree that the UI in EVE needs love.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:40:00 - [141] Originally by: Xaen Tons of systems and areas have no percievable lag, So please provide an example of something that can be improved that would benefit every single player like enhancements to the UI would. There are two this question. One is to make the Google argument: I'm Yahoo, and content with what I've got (perhaps with the odd UI tweak here and there), but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of enterprising guys could vastly change the game by ignoring the UI to the benefit of something I haven't considered. The second is to (hypocritically) steal Arthor Dark's argument: from my perspective, the UI isn't particularly awful, so just about anything would do – new content; engine upgrades; multithreading… My point is that I don't know what would improve the game, but that includes not knowing that UI chances would make that much of a difference as opposed to some other ace the devs may have up their collective sleeve. Your arguments for why the UI is the most important way forwards don't quite convince me, unfortunately.
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:43:00 - [142] Quote: For the record, I agree that the UI in EVE needs love. Alot of love. Whereas new content may be beneficial to everyone, most of the time it's only used by a small fraction of people who can attain it. What percentage of people are actually using the new tech2 ships introduced in trinity? How many people are flying Jump Freighters? Marauders? Black Ops? a very small fraction of people. How many people use a 'warp to' function? everyone, so why not make it a shortcut?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:44:00 - [143] Originally by: Arthor Dark "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. I made a distinction between "surface" (UI) and "back-end" (everything else that feeds the UI) – you chose to narrowly interpret that as "back end = network". Again, read what I wrote and the context in which it was written.
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:50:00 - [144] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. I made a distinction between "surface" (UI) and "back-end" (everything else that feeds the UI) û you chose to narrowly interpret that as "back end = network". Again, read what I wrote and the context in which it was written. Regardless, we're just talking semantics now. My point is that improving (don't even need to re-haul) the UI would affect everyone in the game, and not just a select few, in a very beneficial way. It would be like putting on a fresh new pair of prescription glasses, it may hurt a little while your eyes adjust, but everything is just crisp and clear. If I ever quit this game, it would be because I get fed up with constant fighting against the buggy click-click-click-click ad nauseum user interface. We have a keyboard, it can and should be used for more than just chatting.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Arthor Dark Regardless, we're just talking semantics now. My point is that improving (don't even need to re-haul) the UI would affect everyone in the game, and not just a select few, in a very beneficial way. [...] We have a keyboard, it can and should be used for more than just chatting. Granted, but I'll refer back to my answer #146 above: I'm still unconvinced that it would be a better investment than other, more fundamental changes.
Sinnae Takeda	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:28:00 - [146] The UI needs improvement. I could make you a 1680 x 1050 screenshot of my screen during an op and about a 2/3 of it is covered by windows I need. And I shouldn't be finding out about ctrl+click by chance. Sound needs improvement. The graphics engine should be able to handle AA. Loading my avatar into the forum shouldn't take several days. Why? Not because the players can't live with it if they're hooked. Because it's not just a game, it's also a paid service. I can understand that Jita is lagging. But the above, N years after the launch of the game, is just... sloppy. Not to mention really bad business.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:39:00 - [147] The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game.
Shnitz	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:50:00 - [148] Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 14/05/2008 16:48:23 Drone UI is still terrible. It looks like they used the same monkeys to write the old drone control code to write the new drone control code, but with added features that can have additional bugs with it. /palm forehead You know that the UI is bad, when you have to write your own macros to do some very simple functions such as release drone, engage drone and return drones to bay. I have them all neatly bound to 3 function keys, and it's a thing of beauty. Ratting with 2 drone boats and a salvager without macros is like stabbing your eyes with an ice pick, repeatedly... The client allows you to assign keys to engage drones and for return drones to bay as well for switching between passive/aggressive modes. Sorry you wasted your time on those macros. Most people have never even noticed that oh so helpful tab in the configurations menu(Pressing Esc) that allows you to map useful functions to hot keys. While the available list is not very complete, the things it does let you map to keys, usually save you a lot of grief. But I do agree that there should be an easier way to to launch drones, something as simple as dragging a folder and releasing it in space, or onto a targeted enemy would save tons of time.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:09:00 - [149] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. 1. They don't want us to make macros. 2. In order to "make the game moddable" they'd have to re-write the client, probably. The client was not build with "moddable" in mind from the core, and I don't know if Stackless Python allows it. In any case, as far as macros, imagine if the following were available in-game EVE: - the equivalent of Auctioneer - not only display the recycle value of anything you hold your mouse over (based on current mineral prices), but also worthy deals where things are underpriced / overpriced. In addition, an auto-manager for your orders, to auto-0.01 ISK your competition without you getting carpal syndrome from over-clicking. - auto-scanner, an improved version of that BACON program, one that not only checks local and keeps track of hostiles for you, but also communicates peer-to-peer over ingame channels with other users, so you can watch that hostile approach you from 5 systems away, system by system, in real time. - in-game EFT, character manager, skill queuer. Yes, the whole fitting screen re-written by us to show what EFT shows, DPS etc. Ability to save a ship setup and, with one click, have the system buy it and all the components for you, set up contracts to deliver, and fit it for you. The ability to queue skills (while your client is on) and plan long-term. - My-Alt-Controller. A little utility that lets you control one or more of your alts with remote commands from your main's ship, making them function much like drones, but without the need to run from one computer to another frantically typing in commands. - Auto-Ganker. Small utility that takes the output from that cargo scanner, quickly runs up the totals of what the victim is carrying using real-time pricing, and flashes across your screen in big green letters "OMG PROFIT 5 BILLION KILL HIM!!!" - Tom-Tom pilot. Pilot a convoluted route through high-sec and low sec, but avoiding hot-spots, your enemy's hangouts, systems with over 87 players in them, and no more than 36 jumps. On the way, get little pop-ups with info about the locals and/or what the local dangers may be. - Auto-killmail. Small addon that automatically posts your kills and losses without the need to click anything. In addition, you can keep track of what enemies fly and profile their tendencies. - Missioneer. Re-color all the red NPC crosses for each mission, with an in-game database available with NPC behaviors. Get pop-ups for when the next wave is about to hit, when they'll next jam you, etc etc, as well as color the NPC's by different colors and icons depending on whether they're DPSers or EWar's. Auto-target your NPC's for you depending on criteria such as "Kill the EW first." Auto-recall your drones if the NPC's aggro them. Etc. - Salvager. Jump into your little destroyer, and click an add-on button, then sit back and watch as your destroyer pilots itself to all the cans, tractors them in, loots only the good ****, salvages everything, and then presents you with an itemized list of what you got and a total profit number. - Ambience. Flag your collection of mp3 music, and this little add-on will switch songs based on whether you're in combat, being stalked, have found good loot, game's laggy, or other such events. - Corp-Calendar. Post events, ops, and meetings in-game. Have people sign up for events, ops, and meetings, in-game. Have everything appear as a little calendar, with little pop-up reminders, game mails being sent out to remind people, etc etc. Have people be able to specify ships they'll attend in, and the FC be able to decide whom to include or not based on ship type. Let the FC click an "invite" button in the calendar and send fleet invitations to all the people who signed up. I can go on... God, does this UI suck!
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:12:00 - [150] Again people fuzzing over tiny details. Xaen has been trying to put the UI update on the agenda for 1.8yr now. That's a way too long time. During those 5 years it was changed a couple of times and even in beta it was different. This is the best the came up with in those 5 years. In the mean time there were tons of new stuff introduced into the game and the latest that was added was the updated drone UI.

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