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[quote=CCP Explorer]But I have been talking to the UI developers today

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 15:52:00 - [1] Originally by: CCP Explorer But I have been talking to the UI developers today about the need to fix this. Lies. You don't have any UI developers. That much is obvious to anyone who has studied HCI. You might have programmers creating code that ends up in the UI, but you do not have UI developers. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:12:00 - [2] A bit harsh but I agree on a general level.
DigiFusion	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:13:00 - [3] Edited by: DigiFusion on 13/05/2008 16:13:22 Have to agree. If explorer is not confused over programmers and actual UI developers then we are in more trouble than I thought.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:35:00 - [4] Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:39:00 - [5] Originally by: LaVista Vista Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer? I think what Xean is trying to say is that even though there are some Devs with that title they really are not. But eh to me the UI is mostly fine. A bit annoying at inoppertune moments but that just adds to the randomness of pvp at times. Saying that I wouldn't mind a few of the moar hateful bugs getting sorted. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: LaVista Vista Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer? I think what Xean is trying to say is that even though there are some Devs with that title they really are not. But eh to me the UI is mostly fine. A bit annoying at inoppertune moments but that just adds to the randomness of pvp at times. Saying that I wouldn't mind a few of the moar hateful bugs getting sorted. Yeah, "Open Drone Bay" not grayed on ships without one, "Self destruct" not changing to "Cancel self destruct" once you initiated it, and many more like that are the sign of a polished and professionaly designed UI. Just because you got used to mediocrity doesn't mean it's OK. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Fakespace	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:45:00 - [7] i actually think they DO have UI developers... and that is what's wrong. If you have ever seen a a UI completely based on GOMS usabillity testing or similar, you know what i mean (strict adherance to theory usually mean a bad UI).
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:46:00 - [8] Thanks god CCP is redoing the UI, according to Hellmar during one of the first live dev-blogs
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:53:00 - [9] Originally by: LaVista Vista Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer? I guess that might go some way to explain things ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:53:00 - [10] Nice, XSS hole in those craptastic forums. Next days should prove interresting... -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 16:56:00 - [11] Originally by: LaVista Vista Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer? UI programmer. (Down the bottom.) -----
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:13:00 - [12] I like this UI, actually.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Grarr Dexx I like this UI, actually. Masochist. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Grarr Dexx I like this UI, actually. Masochist. The current UI is not painful, nor is it a punishment. -----
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:25:00 - [15] The UI has some glitches, yes. But beyond the fact that it's laggy and that overheating mods sometimes happens when you're clumpsy. It is a good UI. Black Hand.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:31:00 - [16] Originally by: fuze A bit harsh but I agree on a general level. Just quoteing this for the truth of the statement. Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:36:00 - [17] For a game without a UI developer see City of Villains. Specifically the way that lag affects mouseclicks such that the game responds to the click as though it were at the location of the mouse pointer when the server responds, not at the location of the click event. Many single-use powers lost to that bug, which I reported and explained why it happens and how to fix it. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin It is a good UI. No it isn't. The fact that you think so only serves to make it clear that you haven't the slightest inkling about HCI. Some often repeated tasks require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary. Or do you never repackage everything in your hangar, then stack it? This also assumes that you never accidentally slide the mouse off of one of the abhorrent popup sub menus, and are not interrupted by a modal dialog stealing focus in the middle of it. Either of these could push the unnecessary physical user actions to 2,600% more than necessary. Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. A good UI requires a minimum of intuitive physical user actions and will absolutely, in no uncertain terms, never steal focus from the user. And those are just a couple of aspects intrinsic to HCI that you're completely oblivious to. Originally by: Tobias Sjodin xaen: Could it be he was referring to the coders responsible for the UI? And that you're just arguing semantics? No. Any idiot can put code in your UI source code, you could then slap a title on him and call him a UI developer. But a real UI developer will write code that results in a good UI, not create the Fuster Cluck we attempt to interact with EVE on. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:53:00 - [19] Ok - you dont like the UI. We get it. CCP have said theyre looking at improving it: what more do you want? C. A new look at Local - IDEA
eeevans Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:55:00 - [20] itt: someone who recently read 'hci for dummies'. well done.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.13 17:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Cailais Ok - you dont like the UI. We get it. CCP have said theyre looking at improving it: what more do you want? My guess? A job. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Cailais Ok - you dont like the UI. We get it. CCP have said theyre looking at improving it: what more do you want? That they do. And that they remove the green on green once and for all. Minmatar Boost Brigade

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:04:00 - [23] Xaen .... You are free to fix it. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:04:00 - [24] Originally by: eeevans itt: someone who recently read 'hci for dummies'. well done. I didn't realize such a book. Maybe CCP should read it? Also, if you'd check the thread in my sig, you'd realize that the godawful state of the UI and my critique of it is not a recent development. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:08:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. - there you go Xaen: can you do it?!! C. A new look at Local - IDEA
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:09:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. I'm flattered. But after all my forum whoring and complaints, I figure I'd be laughed out of the phone screening. Not to mention I'm not willing to move to Iceland. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs

CCP Lingorm C C P	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:17:00 - [27] Xaen, As I have mentioned before, we read your posts, but it is also a matter of resources and well we must admit that part of our graphics framework needs a complete rewrite ... it is slow and cumbersome ... but it is happening ... Some of what you suggest is because of this framework other parts well, they could be better. Trust me my wife constant tells me how bad the Corp UI is ... And Iceland is a pretty nice country to live in ... but we are also looking for a UI designer in the Atlanta Office for the 'Other Project' you could apply for that as the same tech is used and you can effect the framework via indirect means. So lots of options. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.

Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:21:00 - [28] Dammit - nobody offers me a job at CCP. C. A new look at Local - IDEA
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Cailais Dammit - nobody offers me a job at CCP. C. I heard your csm moderation on ts, you have a nice voice--will you narrate my life ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Benco97 Gallente Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:28:00 - [30] Sooo... basically... this thread is a bunch of "artists" trying to justify why they think they are so important? The current UI allows me to do anything I'd like to do in game, if I mis-click then I, YES ME, I MIS-CLICKED. Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:30:00 - [31] Ugh. All these threads about how the UI is so terrible... Yeah, it DOES have some issues that could stand some changing, but you know what? If it were THAT ***** bad, none of you pussies would've played past the 14-day trial. If you can't read, then don't blame the UI for not changing "Self destruct" to "Cancel self destruct," learn to read instead and then you wouldn't NEED it to make that change for you. If you don't know that your ship doesn't HAVE a drone bay to open, then maybe you need to go back and go through the tutorials again; and if that still doesn't help you, then you can fly around in confusion with a bunch of Acolyte I's in your cargo hold, wondering why you can't launch them to fight for you. They've got the spot on their website for people to apply for the job - I bet if you apply for the job and are actually qualified to do it and got hired (in other words, if you actually know what the you're talking about to begin with) you'd all find it a lot more complicated than you seem to think it is. /rant Originally by:** techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Cailais Dammit - nobody offers me a job at CCP. C. Waterboy? Oh, wait, they don't drink water in that building, I think the "Beer-carrier" position is more likely...
Insidi Us Amarr Suicidal Mercenaries Pure.	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:30:00 - [33] CCP needs to have a job for the crime/smuggling/bounty hunting side of the game, so I can use my Criminology degree and ever-so-willingly move to Iceland. Me love you long time. By the way, I really wish there was a way to tell where a post ends and a signature starts.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.05.13 18:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Cailais Dammit - nobody offers me a job at CCP. C. I heard your csm moderation on ts, you have a nice voice--will you narrate my life Um...thanks - but I think narrating your entire life (age dependant of course) might go on for a while, and its much more fun living a life than recounting one. I am, of course, available as the new voice of auroror. C. A new look at Local - IDEA
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Benco97 The current UI allows me to do anything I'd like to do in game, if I mis-click then I, YES ME, I MIS-CLICKED. By that reasoning why drive a Ferrari when a Trabant can get you to the same places. The UI is full of small annoying stuff, that add up to a pretty crappy experience when you think of what it could be. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Benco97 Gallente Exchangable Properties	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Lubomir Penev By that reasoning why drive a Ferrari when a Trabant can get you to the same places. The UI is full of small annoying stuff, that add up to a pretty crappy experience when you think of what it could be. I WOULD rather drive a Trabant than a Ferrari thankyouverymuch. Originally by: Kirjava This man speaks the truth, when he farts we count the length in seconds and make squillions buying winning lottery tickets.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Benco97 Originally by: Lubomir Penev By that reasoning why drive a Ferrari when a Trabant can get you to the same places. The UI is full of small annoying stuff, that add up to a pretty crappy experience when you think of what it could be. I WOULD rather drive a Trabant than a Ferrari thankyouverymuch. 19:10:05 RhetoricalQuestion is already Rhetorical. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Erotic Irony 19:10:05 RhetoricalQuestion is already Rhetorical. Oh how I laughed -----
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:16:00 - [39] I like right-click context sensitive menus -- in fact, I don't think they're used enough. Splitting stacks in the hangar, for instance, shouldn't require a shift-click. Granted, some options like "Buy this skill that I'm already training" seem kind of silly, but someone somewhere must have needed it. I think what the interface really needs is a click-drag select box. Being able to drag a box around the hostiles/roids/items you want to perform one action on would be a great timesaver, and something that's been in common UI's since Windows 3.1's file manager. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Doc Fury	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:20:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Lingorm it is also a matter of resources and well we must admit that part of our graphics framework needs a complete rewrite ... it is slow and cumbersome ... but it is happening ... Translation: "All our resources are currently dedicated elsewhere so we can roll-out yet another expansion, so you will have to live with the same crappy UI until after that. We have been trying to hire a UI developer for some time, it's just nobody qualified wants to move to iceland..." The dead do not shoo-bop-a-loo-la.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:27:00 - [41] I know who i'm workng for when i'm older
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:29:00 - [42] I'd like a less window oriented UI... Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Cori4n Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Erotic Irony 19:10:05 RhetoricalQuestion is already Rhetorical. You know this bugs me because it's not right. The real message is Module Name is already CamelCaseEffect. Putting camel case in the first spot just kind of seems odd to me
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Cori4n Originally by: Erotic Irony 19:10:05 RhetoricalQuestion is already Rhetorical. You know this bugs me because it's not right. The real message is Module Name is already CamelCaseEffect. Putting camel case in the first spot just kind of seems odd to me 15:51:37 ForumPost is already PhraseRhetorically - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.13 19:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Anubis Xian I'd like a less window oriented UI... Would text-based suffice? warp drive active \| nature vraie
Serena DeVire Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Zeba Originally by: LaVista Vista Wasn't T20's official title, actually UI Developer? I think what Xean is trying to say is that even though there are some Devs with that title they really are not. But eh to me the UI is mostly fine. A bit annoying at inoppertune moments but that just adds to the randomness of pvp at times. Saying that I wouldn't mind a few of the moar hateful bugs getting sorted. Yeah, "Open Drone Bay" not grayed on ships without one, "Self destruct" not changing to "Cancel self destruct" once you initiated it, and many more like that are the sign of a polished and professionaly designed UI. Just because you got used to mediocrity doesn't mean it's OK. Unless someone is terminally stupid, they really should be able to figure those things out themselves tbh.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:07:00 - [47] The OP is entirely correct. Hire someone competent who has studied human factors for eve. The game is big enough to justify it now. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Serena DeVire Originally by: Lubomir Penev Yeah, "Open Drone Bay" not grayed on ships without one, "Self destruct" not changing to "Cancel self destruct" once you initiated it, and many more like that are the sign of a polished and professionaly designed UI. Just because you got used to mediocrity doesn't mean it's OK. Unless someone is terminally stupid, they really should be able to figure those things out themselves tbh. Just because you can get by doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for improvement. Back in the day Yahoo search worked sufficed. Does that mean Larry Page and Sergey Brin should not have started a little project that they thought could do a better job? You see what it is. I see what it could be. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:24:00 - [49] Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/05/2008 20:24:51 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Some often repeated tasks require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary. Or do you never repackage everything in your hangar, then stack it? What about repackaging and stacking everything in the hangar? That's very easy and fast to do.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Serena DeVire Originally by: Lubomir Penev Yeah, "Open Drone Bay" not grayed on ships without one, "Self destruct" not changing to "Cancel self destruct" once you initiated it, and many more like that are the sign of a polished and professionaly designed UI. Just because you got used to mediocrity doesn't mean it's OK. Unless someone is terminally stupid, they really should be able to figure those things out themselves tbh. Just because you can get by doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for improvement. Back in the day Yahoo search worked sufficed. Does that mean Larry Page and Sergey Brin should not have started a little project that they thought could do a better job? You see what it is. I see what it could be. Follow the link and apply for the job then, IF you're qualified - hasn't this thread run its course already? Continuation isn't going to yield anything worth while, just more whining about inconsequential nonsense amirite? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:27:00 - [51] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. Aww man, I could so do this one, but my wife would kill me if I moved to Iceland! What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:31:00 - [52] EVE is a great game, but so often you wind up fighting the UI. But they are making improvements. The new over view tabs are great. Remember how you used to not be able to jump from your orders directly to the market browser? That was a huge pain. Or how about trying to repair stuff before the new repair fixes? Horribly annoying. Of course, trying to get the directional scanner to filter out trash while still showing scanner probes is pretty much impossible. That's probably my #1 UI gripe atm :p
Javiir Soban Caldari Amarrian Religious Reformation Society Exalted	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:40:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Ability to complete projects on a timely basis with minimal supervision and attention to detail You know this could be interpreted as meaning two things 1.minimal supervision and an attention to detail OR 2.minimal supervision and minimal attention to detail Based on these forums I'm thinking its 2 --- --- --- --- --- My views don't reflect those of my corporation, and definitely not those of my alliance as I don't have an alliance :p .
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:42:00 - [54] Originally by: Javiir Soban Originally by: CCP Ability to complete projects on a timely basis with minimal supervision and attention to detail You know this could be interpreted as meaning two things I should hope that anyone applying for a job, anywhere would be able to tell which one is the correct interpretation. -----
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/05/2008 20:24:51 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Some often repeated tasks require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary. Or do you never repackage everything in your hangar, then stack it? What about repackaging and stacking everything in the hangar? That's very easy and fast to do. quoting failure ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Javiir Soban Caldari Amarrian Religious Reformation Society Exalted	Posted - 2008.05.13 20:59:00 - [56] I know it's supposed to be 1, but looking at the state of the forums,(random log-outs, getting logged out when you go to post, etc.), it seems more like 2. --- --- --- --- --- My views don't reflect those of my corporation, and definitely not those of my alliance as I don't have an alliance :p .
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:06:00 - [57] Originally by: CCP Lingorm ...but it is also a matter of resources and ... So about that resetting overview,drone and fleet windows thingy. I'm pretty sure microsoft (as an example) would pretty much rush to fix MS Word if whenever you started it up or opened a new file all your toolbars were reset and cascaded on your screen It's been what? 2months? If you can't fix "simple" stuff that frustrate everyone who bothers to undock, every single time they do it, are you surprised that ppl are sceptical about your ability to work on more important stuff like lag, faction warfare and all that jig? In essence, don't forget the simple stuff! Boink!
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:11:00 - [58] Originally by: ElCoCo So about that resetting overview,drone and fleet windows thingy... In essence, don't forget the simple stuff! Look at it this way -- guys who are working on the UI are guys aren't working on Faction Warfare or Ambulation. Put them in the position to cause the least amount of damage, right? //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Xaen You see what it is. I see what it could be. Follow the link and apply for the job then, IF you're qualified - hasn't this thread run its course already? Continuation isn't going to yield anything worth while, just more whining about inconsequential nonsense amirite? Not on this one mate, no. Xaen has this utterly consequential one by throat. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:25:00 - [60] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Havohej Follow the link and apply for the job then, IF you're qualified - hasn't this thread run its course already? Continuation isn't going to yield anything worth while, just more whining about inconsequential nonsense amirite? That noise you hear is my point whizzing past your head. My bad, I thought it was whining. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Alz Shado Originally by: ElCoCo So about that resetting overview,drone and fleet windows thingy... In essence, don't forget the simple stuff! Look at it this way -- guys who are working on the UI are guys aren't working on Faction Warfare or Ambulation. Put them in the position to cause the least amount of damage, right? No I realy don't want faction warfare (and certainly not ambulation)if I have to rearrange my windows whenever I undock or join a fleet. Boink!
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:30:00 - [62] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Alz Shado Originally by: ElCoCo So about that resetting overview,drone and fleet windows thingy... In essence, don't forget the simple stuff! Look at it this way -- guys who are working on the UI are guys aren't working on Faction Warfare or Ambulation. Put them in the position to cause the least amount of damage, right? No I realy don't want faction warfare (and certainly not ambulation)if I have to rearrange my windows whenever I undock or join a fleet. It's fixed in Empyrean. There, now stop whining. -----
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Shionoya Risa It's fixed in Empyrean. There, now stop whining. 1. I'm not whining. 2. Where's the note on that being fixed cause I missed it? Boink!
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:49:00 - [64] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Shionoya Risa It's fixed in Empyrean. There, now stop whining. 1. I'm not whining. 2. Where's the note on that being fixed cause I missed it? Yes, you were whining, but whatever. The note on it being fixed is in the GDF's somewhere. Can't find the link now, sorry. -----
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:55:00 - [65] Originally by: Shionoya Risa Yes, you were whining, but whatever. If you can't grasp how ease of use and functionality affects the long term appeal )of any service) it's not my fault. It doesn't hurt to be reminded of the simple stuff. Boink!
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.05.13 21:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Anubis Xian I'd like a less window oriented UI... Would text-based suffice? If it functions without impairing the function...why not. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
hamster humpster	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Havohej Follow the link and apply for the job then, IF you're qualified - hasn't this thread run its course already? Continuation isn't going to yield anything worth while, just more whining about inconsequential nonsense amirite? That noise you hear is my point whizzing past your head. My bad, I thought it was whining. nonsense, you dont have to be qualified to do something in order to know the people who are doing it is doing a bad job... case point, everyone knows that whoever is in charge of iraq is doing a pretty crappy job, even though most people are not qualified in leading a country... the fact that there is actually a job open for UI designer pretty much says it all... if they have competent UI designer(s) already, why would they need to hire more?
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/05/2008 20:24:51 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Some often repeated tasks require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary. Or do you never repackage everything in your hangar, then stack it? What about repackaging and stacking everything in the hangar? That's very easy and fast to do. You seem to be experiencing a catastrophic quoting failure. Your point was irrevocably lost. Abort, Retry, Fail? - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.13 22:27:00 - [69] Originally by: hamster humpster Originally by: Havohej My bad, I thought it was whining. nonsense, you dont have to be qualified to do something in order to know the people who are doing it is doing a bad job... the fact that there is actually a job open for UI designer pretty much says it all... if they have competent UI designer(s) already, why would they need to hire more? Eh... you seem to have misunderstood me. To rephrase what I said: I agree that there are issues with the UI, but I do not believe they are OMGEVEISDYINGFIXTHEUIOMGOMGOMG important. IF you are qualified, apply for the job and get hired, then you can help fix it. Otherwise, this thread serves no purpose other than to nitpick at CCP by whining about problems that have existed throughout the existence of EVE and haven't prevented new subscribers, nor have these UI problems caused the playerbase to quit and go play something else. It's not that important... if it were, it would reflect on the revenue generated by the game. It apparently hasn't, as there's been no apparent shift of current developer resources off of other projects to work on changing the UI. I think it's impressive that they're actually trying to specifically hire people to work on it at all. It's just NOT THAT DEEP. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
CrestoftheStars Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:08:00 - [70] Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 13/05/2008 23:11:04 Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: CCP Lingorm it is also a matter of resources and well we must admit that part of our graphics framework needs a complete rewrite ... it is slow and cumbersome ... but it is happening ... Translation: "All our resources are currently dedicated elsewhere so we can roll-out yet another expansion, so you will have to live with the same crappy UI until after that. We have been trying to hire a UI developer for some time, it's just nobody qualified wants to move to iceland..." well it all depends on the money ;) give enough and you will get the quelity you want :P hehe but yes you need the people to be able to do the job ^^ ps: they ARE trying to hire some one for it, so i don't really see how much more they can do for it?... need to be patient. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.13 23:11:00 - [71] On the other hand, it's quite apparent that CCP is very busy, and as a result of this, certain bugs and annoyances that are minor are NEVER EVER EVER fixed, simply because there's always something more important to fix or do. They do not have a system whereby a minor issue gets escalated with time, from what I've seen. So, the efforts of those vocal about UI improvements (I am one of them) are to actually avoid this indefinite postponement issue, and NOT wait another 5 years before anything gets done. I also disagree with you that it has no impact on playerbase numbers, but can't produce any proof, just like you. I have seen a post or two in the Newbie Questions forum stating that the game is interesting but they hate having to fight the UI, just like people are saying here. Take that as you will.
Vyktor Abyss EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 00:29:00 - [72] You don't suit being grumpy Xaen. You're much too sensible for that! If I were you (having skills and talent CCP desperately requires) I'd apply for a job there and try to effect change from within. It could stop you getting more and more grumpy until you drop a metaphorical forum A-bomb!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.14 00:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss You don't suit being grumpy Xaen. You're much too sensible for that! If I were you (having skills and talent CCP desperately requires) I'd apply for a job there and try to effect change from within. It could stop you getting more and more grumpy until you drop a metaphorical forum A-bomb! The problem is this, once you see something in a transformative or complex way you can't unsee it. It's as though I told you gun turrets never showed up or ship trails weren't working, you'd notice those things every time you logged in much less thought about EVE. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Havohej Follow the link and apply for the job then, IF you're qualified - hasn't this thread run its course already? Continuation isn't going to yield anything worth while, just more whining about inconsequential nonsense amirite? That noise you hear is my point whizzing past your head. Xaen has been posting for a very long time for UI improvement (1yr8mon) and little has improved. I guess there is a point when you are getting annoyed with it. CCP working on WOD is taking its toll on Eve development and having difficulties putting priorities on current issues. Same when Serenity was being implemented and now turns out to be failing with less than 5k players online during peek hours. Vital part of this would be communication about what's really happening and why its taking forever to fix the UI.
Vyktor Abyss EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:10:00 - [75] I get the growing frustration - I really do, but if I had an ounce of the talent or skill requred to work for CCP to effect change to our beloved game then I'd go for it. Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy?
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:11:00 - [76] Quote: That much is obvious to anyone who has studied HCI. You might have programmers creating code that ends up in the UI, but you do not have UI developers. I studied HCI. It was the biggest crock of **** waste of time I've ever done. I attended about 25% of my classes (read: one hour a week for 13 weeks), spent a total of one day on assignments for it and hardly studied for the exam. I got a high distinction 85%. And this was a final-year bachelor course. Anyone who believes half of what HCI dictates should be done for a UI can't actually use computers properly themselves. Improve Market Competition!
Ghaelsto Kakram Mindgamers	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:21:00 - [77] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job?
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: That much is obvious to anyone who has studied HCI. You might have programmers creating code that ends up in the UI, but you do not have UI developers. I studied HCI. It was the biggest crock of **** waste of time I've ever done. I attended about 25% of my classes (read: one hour a week for 13 weeks), spent a total of one day on assignments for it and hardly studied for the exam. I got a high distinction 85%. And this was a final-year bachelor course. Anyone who believes half of what HCI dictates should be done for a UI can't actually use computers properly themselves. Its you, you're the mediocre talent who works at CCP. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2008.05.14 01:54:00 - [79] Quote: Its you, you're the mediocre talent who works at CCP. Psht. Give me command line or give me death OK, I do understand the need for user interfaces to be useable, but they also need to be functional. And for the amount of functionality in EVE, there's not much choice for them. So yeah, maybe I do have angst about people who ask for software systems to be made for them, but refuse to learn how to use a computer. I swear I could make a fortune running seminars to educate businesses about how to engage software companies should they wish to have some electronic system designed for them. Improve Market Competition!
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:06:00 - [80] Edited by: Hannobaal on 14/05/2008 02:07:57 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/05/2008 20:24:51 Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Some often repeated tasks require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary. Or do you never repackage everything in your hangar, then stack it? What about repackaging and stacking everything in the hangar? That's very easy and fast to do. You seem to be experiencing a catastrophic quoting failure. Your point was irrevocably lost. Abort, Retry, Fail? You could just answer the question. The one and only thing I can think of that one would want added to help that process, is an additional option to repackage and automatically stack everything in one. But that's such a minor, minor issue, and such a miniscule improvement if added, that it's just laughable.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:10:00 - [81] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: Its you, you're the mediocre talent who works at CCP. Psht. Give me command line or give me death OK, I do understand the need for user interfaces to be useable, but they also need to be functional. And for the amount of functionality in EVE, there's not much choice for them. So yeah, maybe I do have angst about people who ask for software systems to be made for them, but refuse to learn how to use a computer. I swear I could make a fortune running seminars to educate businesses about how to engage software companies should they wish to have some electronic system designed for them. I'd really love to have more screen real estate but the ship console at the center of the screen coupled with the enormous amount of space you need for drone window, overview, watchlist and local + scanner give me a headache every time. Why we can't have a "simple view" or "condensed view" or even "intuitive view" that organized these things would be awesome not to mention modern. Why we lost the map in the directional scan is something I'll also never understand--I never use the new seamless map. :[ ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:16:00 - [82] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. I'd do it but how would this affect my snow angel and editing semicolons to period job that mitnal gave me cough i don't come close to the requirements cough gimme a few years
Freya Runestone Minmatar	Posted - 2008.05.14 02:27:00 - [83] Originally by: Havohej Eh... you seem to have misunderstood me. To rephrase what I said: I agree that there are issues with the UI, but I do not believe they are OMGEVEISDYINGFIXTHEUIOMGOMGOMG important. IF you are qualified, apply for the job and get hired, then you can help fix it. Otherwise, this thread serves no purpose other than to nitpick at CCP by whining about problems that have existed throughout the existence of EVE and haven't prevented new subscribers, nor have these UI problems caused the playerbase to quit and go play something else. It's not that important... if it were, it would reflect on the revenue generated by the game. It apparently hasn't, as there's been no apparent shift of current developer resources off of other projects to work on changing the UI. I think it's impressive that they're actually trying to specifically hire people to work on it at all. It's just NOT THAT DEEP. I think the UI has turned many people away from the game. If you hang out in the Help channel ingame, you often see people asking simple UI questions that should be obvious in the UI. But it's one of those things where none of us can prove one thing or another since no proof exists. there are a lot of windows that look almost exactly the same, but perform differently. cargo bay, containers, wrecks, dronebay. All these look the same, with only the window title distinguishing them from one another. The amount of UI things is just insane though. station services, all sub-windows, POS, all sub windows of all sub structures, corp/ally and all the sub windows, everything with trading, there is just tons and tons and tons of menus and windows for everything. EVE wont die if the the UI isn't fixed right away, but it will make it a better game.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.05.14 03:11:00 - [84] The odds of finding a quality, experienced UI designer that is fanatical enough to move to iceland and get paid sub-standard pay (games industry ftl) are microscopic.
Lumen Atra GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.14 04:24:00 - [85] Edited by: Lumen Atra on 14/05/2008 04:25:37 Originally by: Xaen Just because you can get by doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for improvement. Back in the day Yahoo search worked sufficed. Does that mean Larry Page and Sergey Brin should not have started a little project that they thought could do a better job? You see what it is. I see what it could be. There is more to UI design than simply HCI. There is more to any design on any product than simply how it interacts with a user. Not to mention that a natural flow to a user - thus something more comfortable to use - is not always what you would logically find to be the most efficient or useable. Compounded by every person having different tastes. Google hasn't actually done anything well in terms of presentation, in regards to its main "product" to the masses: its search engine. It is simplistic on the surface, but it has many faults that are taken for granted. "I'm feeling lucky" has zero context unless you have randomly tried it or read about it, for instance. The advanced search page is atrocious, like most advanced search pages. The real questionable thing about this thread is the utter lack of anything useful presented by the original post. There is a big difference between criticism and constructive criticism. One points out a flaw; the other gives ideas for change. Guess which one is more useful and could actually be used by a developer. Guess which one leaves a developer to blindly and randomly try different things. edit: ps: But I do agree, ultimately, that a UI redesign with better tweaks at the minor things, and communication with the audience, would be greatly beneficial.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.14 04:33:00 - [86] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. BURN, JUST BURN GJ Lingorm
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.14 05:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. BURN, JUST BURN GJ Lingorm Burn? Please. If that was intended as a burn, it's juvenile and lame. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Melor Rend	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:11:00 - [88] thats probably the exact reason why the UI and many other aspects of EVE are so... well... bad. UI developer = a programmer that pulled the short straw and ended up having to build this thing that CCP later put a sticker on labeled "UI". Thats the same with the QA department... they are recruited from the cleaning personnel that doesn't clean well enough, then get payed double the wages and get a nice sticker for their t-shirt that reads "QA" and bob's your uncle.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:45:00 - [89] This lol topic is lol. Naturally all kinds of development has priorities. And I don't really care about the details that may frustrate a vocal minority. Yeah yeah I don't know HCI and I don't really give a $h17. While I'm sure that your suggestions would improve the GUI, it's just not that important for most people. The vocal majority instead wants a fix to lag, they want a fix to balancing, they want a fix to bugs that affect their ability to play the game. And of course, whether we like it or not, we all want expansions. Any game that stagnates, remains the same is doomed to die, or at least stay still. The GUI is of course a part of it, and they have made a few changes to improve it, but clearly there is no majority looking for what you think is "OMGBROKEN!11". So yes, your passion for fixing the UI is noted, but further whining will only do you a disservice, someone screaming about any one thing for too long in the end tend to get ignored. Black Hand.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.14 06:56:00 - [90] Cause whining about how other folks are whining and then whining about lag is gonna make that better too eh - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:21:00 - [91] So, summa summarum about this rabble is that EVE UI sucks donkeys balls and having a UI that people can fiddle around is bad? Look how much custom UI modifications you can do in that other game. "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.05.14 07:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here by not reading the entire thread before responding to a page 1 post. So hoping not many commented on this. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Unless you limit commands to so few in number, that you limit possible actions. That Eve's context menus are easy to slide off into the wrong alternative, that's where the improvement can be made. A radial menu with subcategories is still a context menu, just shaped differently, and harder to navigate with a scroll wheel. Shortcuts are even better, but there is no reason not to have both. The more shortcuts available to those who want them the better, that's for sure. So more shortcuts, better layout for context menue, that's what's needed. And a different color for active modules. Sure Eve UI could improve, just don't ruin it by imitating macs. Or consoles. Or UI's made for computer challenged people. Bad moves in UI design bring to mind Elder Scrolls III : Morrowind, which had a decent UI. Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion had a %&%ññ# terrible UI, which came close to ruining the game all on it's own.
Vyktor Abyss EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 08:11:00 - [93] Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? Yes, when you love something money doesn't matter for me. I admit I've no kids or financial responsibilities though other than needing beer money.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:13:00 - [94] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Xaen .... You are free to fix it. That looks like you're looking for someone to fix your website... Good intention, but someone who'd want to fix the ingame UI probably wouldn't want to fix web stuff. ;-) EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:15:00 - [95] Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? How do you know it's better paying? Icelandic salaries (and living costs unfortunately) are nothing to sneeze at. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:28:00 - [96] UI is terrible and I've lost ships thanks to it. Windows jumping around, context menus suddenly having other options where you are used to click. Forgetting overview settings, targeting reticules going offscreen. Theres just no logic. Ofc there will always be ccp fanbois screaming everything is alright and if you dont like it quit or in this case join ccp hehe. And on the other side rude people calling ccps competence into question. But bottom line is, the UI needs a serious revamp, post haste. ------ We live in an expanding universe. All of it is trying to get away from Chuck Norris.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:46:00 - [97] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Would you give up a better paying job? How do you know it's better paying? Icelandic salaries (and living costs unfortunately) are nothing to sneeze at. As well as moving expenses, and the high costs of getting a work visa... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Menacing Presence	Posted - 2008.05.14 09:59:00 - [98] Originally by: Xaen The fact that you think so only serves to make it clear that you haven't the slightest inkling about HCI. Originally by: Xaen ...require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary Originally by: Xaen ...unnecessary physical user actions to 2,600% more than necessary. Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. Originally by: Xaen But a real UI developer will write code that results in a good UI, not create the Fuster Cluck we attempt to interact with EVE on. Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Let's let you loose with a magic pen and get us an AI wtih all of EVE's required functionality into intuitively designed hot menus shall we. 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game .
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:28:00 - [99] Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . You believe in good enough, some people don't. Thankfully there are some working for CCP. Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Vito Parabellum Fivrelde Corp	Posted - 2008.05.14 10:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Menacing Presence Spineless alt drivel You believe in good enough, some people don't. Thankfully there are some working for CCP. Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. Don't feed the trolls Lubomir! ------ We live in an expanding universe. All of it is trying to get away from Chuck Norris.
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:02:00 - [101] Originally by: Lubomir Penev =Escrow "worked fine for the majority of people". And I'm damn glad it has been replaced by contracts. I liked Escrow... I could sit in Jita refreshing the list waiting for free stuff. -----
Rheddin	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:25:00 - [102] the ui. can we please stop UI updates blocking screen updates? Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? just draw me empty boxes, and fill them in as you get the info, please stop it freezing the game while we wewait for the UI info to arrive :)
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:31:00 - [103] Originally by: Menacing Presence Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. And why is Eve the only game that gives me cramps in my right hand when playing for a longer time? There are tons of other games I've played during those 5 years and Eve stands out pretty much. The repetitive stuff simply takes a lot of mouse movement and resembles a lot of the older games of 10 years ago or even older. Actually it reminds me of Elite II on the Atari and moving a fridge over the desk called a ball mouse.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Naval Protection Corp Carpe Universitas	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:44:00 - [104] Originally by: Qui Shon Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337.
Shionoya Risa The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:48:00 - [105] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337. And to think you could get that with a mouse that doesn't look ******** and isn't stupidly overpriced. I imagine they're rather uncomfortable too. -----
Boombastica Majority 13	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Havohej If it were THAT ******* bad, none of you pussies would've played past the 14-day trial. This made me laugh. Thanks for making my day worthwhile.
Caleese New Eden Research And Design School	Posted - 2008.05.14 13:54:00 - [107] I have to admit I put up with the UI and all it's "quirks" up until I tried to overheat a module. ----------------- Think of someone you consider of average intelligence... now realise this. Half the worlds population is dumber than that person. How does the world survive such stupidity?
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:11:00 - [108] Xaen, please apply for that position and help provide us with a better UI! I beg you. Screw your existing life, friends and family, you have more important things to work on! You can always buy new friends. Seriously though. Don't let your having raised important points on the forum in an enthusiastic and elaborate manner stop you from applying. ____________
Tradinea	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:31:00 - [109] We never should have given up the command line UI.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:38:00 - [110] Originally by: Rheddin Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Because it's all one thread. I think Stackless Python limits them to that. In any case, if any part of a process thread stops, the whole thing will stop, which is what you see. Kinda like, 16-bit DOS. You're asking for the communication sub-component to be executed as a separate thread (perhaps even on a different processor) than the graphics sub-component. A valid thing to ask for.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:44:00 - [111] What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it.
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:51:00 - [112] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" Actually i've only skimmed this thread, so maybe I missed it, but I'm pretty sure he's been saying that anyone with even one single class on interface design should be put in charge. If your interface would get a failing grade in one of these classes, it's probably a sign that maybe it needs a little work. And trust me, this game would fail. Bad. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 14:53:00 - [113] Edited by: Tippia on 14/05/2008 14:56:58 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Unless you limit commands to so few in number, that you limit possible actions. …and that was why Apple had to abandon the idea of single-button mice very early on and instead started to pile functionality into context-sensitive pop-up menus. These days, the standard Mac mice come with four mouse buttons (plus a fifth, emulated button) and x-and-y-scroll capable (not just scroll+tilt) scroll wheels. Or, put another way: if you're going to quote some precedent as proof that some given way of doing things is "the right way to go", first make sure that "right way" hasn't been long since abandoned after being found completely braindead.
Lord Zoran House of Tempers	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:11:00 - [114] wow we seem to have a few kids in this thread. Anyways the UI does need improvement and thanks ccp for looking into it
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.05.14 15:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Rheddin Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Because it's all one thread. I think Stackless Python limits them to that. In any case, if any part of a process thread stops, the whole thing will stop, which is what you see. Kinda like, 16-bit DOS. You're asking for the communication sub-component to be executed as a separate thread (perhaps even on a different processor) than the graphics sub-component. A valid thing to ask for. Python sucks so hard--why Eve doesn't use a WoW style code where everything loads but their visual incarnations kick in after a few seconds I don't know. It seems thats the lesser of two evils than to completely cripple the client for a simple market query or session change. Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it. So it makes more sense to have a forum advocate drop everything and go to iceland than it is to expect CCP to bring the UI up to the standard of all modern games? Look how stupid you are. Look. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:08:00 - [116] Originally by: Lumen Atra Google hasn't actually done anything well in terms of presentation, in regards to its main "product" to the masses: its search engine. It is simplistic on the surface, but it has many faults that are taken for granted. "I'm feeling lucky" has zero context unless you have randomly tried it or read about it, for instance. The advanced search page is atrocious, like most advanced search pages. You missed the point by miles. Yahoo search used to work "well enough". But that didn't stop them from starting one they thought could do better. The EVE UI works......well enough to provide access to do everything you can do, but it's a far cry from being as good as it could be. Their UI is irrelevant to my point. Originally by: Lumen Atra The real questionable thing about this thread is the utter lack of anything useful presented by the original post. Fair enough. But check the creation date on that thread. Or even the last edit date. Should be an eye opener. Originally by: Lumen Atra There is a big difference between criticism and constructive criticism. One points out a flaw; the other gives ideas for change. Guess which one is more useful and could actually be used by a developer. Guess which one leaves a developer to blindly and randomly try different things. Guess you haven't seen the 11 page UI thread linked in my sig? There are tons of concrete ideas from myself and others there. Some with detailed explanations. Some with screenshot prototypes! - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:14:00 - [117] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Xaen Slapping access to functionality into a popup menu is a crutch to get through developer testing of the functionality itself. Having it in the finished product is beyond terrible. This is something the guys at Apple knew back in about, say 1980? Why do you think there were no two button Mac mice? It wasn't purely a hipster cool wannabe decision. It was to force programmers not to overburden the right click menu. I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here by not reading the entire thread before responding to a page 1 post. So hoping not many commented on this. Mac's 1-button design is HORRIBLE. Two buttons is not enough. Three buttons where one is a scroll wheel is not enough, even for browsing, though Operas mouse gestures help a bit there. I wholeheartedly agree, but the reasons behind the one button thing were sound. Context menus are a crutch. At best. Originally by: Qui Shon Nothing wrong with context menus, in fact, it's absolutely neccesary there are context menus. Actually there is a great deal wrong with them. And yes they're sometimes appropriate, but hardly anywhere near as much as EVE uses them. Originally by: Qui Shon A radial menu with subcategories is still a context menu, just shaped differently, and harder to navigate with a scroll wheel. Radial menus are not an improvement. Eve already has one, but the invocation delay is so long as to make it slower than using the selection window. Originally by: Qui Shon Shortcuts are even better, but there is no reason not to have both. The more shortcuts available to those who want them the better, that's for sure. So more shortcuts, better layout for context menue, that's what's needed. And a different color for active modules. This is the heart of my giant UI thread. That and getting rid of the insane decision to default all alphanumeric keystrokes into chat. If I wanted that I'd use IRC. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Menacing Presence Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. People who can tell the difference between a good UI and a poor one. Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Originally by: Menacing Presence 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game . Actions, not exertions. It's a measure of how long and complex the actions required are to get the software to do what the user wants. A UI that requires fewer actions and less time (including time to find the action) is quantifiably better. It looks like it went over your head though. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:22:00 - [119] Originally by: Rheddin the ui. can we please stop UI updates blocking screen updates? Why does my graphics and screen freeze while the UI is receiving text to display? Lack of proper use of threading. Originally by: Rheddin just draw me empty boxes, and fill them in as you get the info, please stop it freezing the game while we wewait for the UI info to arrive :) Delegating the fetchMeSomeData() action to a worker thread will do precisely this. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Szprinkoth Sponsz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:23:00 - [120] CCP: Call me in 2 years when I finish my interaction design degree OK?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:25:00 - [121] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Google didn't win on usability – they won on content and results. Much like EVE.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Shionoya Risa Originally by: Grarr Dexx Razer Deathadder, or any Razer mouse for that matter. Default programming = two sidebuttons programmed for back and forwards, it's so 1337. And to think you could get that with a mouse that doesn't look ****** and isn't stupidly overpriced. I imagine they're rather uncomfortable too. I use a Razer Diamond back both at home and at work. It's incredibly comfortable. Weighs almost nothing. Teflon mousefeet resulting in a coefficient of static friction nearly equal to that of kinetic friction. Really easy to click. The drivers/software are complete garbage though. Cost $20 on woot. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs**
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:28:00 - [123] Originally by: Khandara Seraphim What I find particularly obnoxious about Xaen in this thread is he keeps offering pearls of wisdom like "You all can't imagine the true glory the UI could be.... but I can! I alone can save you!" This Jesus complex gets kind of aggravating when CCP actually calls your bluff and points you to actually fix it... and you turn it down! Either apply for the job, or stop preaching about how visionary you are. Don't get me wrong, I think the UI could use some love... but I'm not going to quit over it and I'm not going to harp on forums about how sweet my UI would be if i designed it. I'd be happier if someone else just up and did it, then if I had to move to Iceland and fix it myself. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:31:00 - [124] Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz CCP: Call me in 2 years when I finish my interaction design degree OK? Man, you interrupted my nine hit combo move on this thread. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:32:00 - [125] Just want to pipe in and voice my support of UI improvement. For a software product that has been out this long, to have such an inefficient and buggy User Interface is something worthy of firing developers over.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Menacing Presence Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Google didn't win on usability û they won on content and results. Much like EVE. Google won on being better at the job. Me? I'll take better over sufficient every time. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:40:00 - [127] i just want my drone window to stay where i put it, is that to much to ask!?! ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:44:00 - [128] Drone UI is still terrible. It looks like they used the same monkeys to write the old drone control code to write the new drone control code, but with added features that can have additional bugs with it. /palm forehead
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:54:00 - [129] Originally by: Xaen Google won on being better at the job. …which has surprisingly little to do with UI and HCI, which was his point. Yes, the UI could be better, but to actually improve EVE in a serious way, there are far better things that CCP could spend their resources on, just like Google didn't become better than Yahoo by making a new search interface (in fact, in many ways they made it worse, but the behind-the-scenes improvements were so much better that the end result blew Yahoo away). In short, UI design is not the be-all, end-all method of improvement – do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end?
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:55:00 - [130] Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 16:57:00 - [131] Originally by: Arthor Dark Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES. Why? Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one?
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:00:00 - [132] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark Quote: ... do you really want CCP to spend time on surface gloss rather than something that will vastly improve the back-end? YES. Why? Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement, which if fixed, would merely invite more people to form bigger blobs. Fixing the UI is a scalable improvement. Everyone benefits.
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:14:00 - [133] Originally by: Xaen I have trouble taking your opinion seriously. Well, you're ice skating uphill here, Sir. Because you are doing your best trying to make people take your opinion seriously. I know how it is to present a case on these forums, and I think you in essence have a good solid ground for your arguments. However, tenacity and arguing against everyone will only make your fervor look like desperation. Take a step back and don't take it personal. Present your arguments and don't bother countering the obvious slander. Don't repeat the same counter arguments and limit your posts and I think you have a stronger position. Good luck Xaen. Black Hand.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Arthor Dark It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement This is where assumptions will hurt you: read what I wrote again, and in which context. I didn't talk about lag, nor about anything specific. I was talking about anything that sits behind the UI, be it gameplay, content, network structure, community, whathaveyou. The UI is a tiny part of the game, and there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. So, again, why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one?
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:19:00 - [135] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Take a step back and don't take it personal. Present your arguments and don't bother countering the obvious slander. Oh I don't, and I'm more amused by trolls than bothered, but I'm such a forum *** I can't help but respond. And holy crap they censored a misspelling of that word. (quote post to see, if misspelled profanity doesn't bother you) Originally by:** Tobias Sjodin Don't repeat the same counter arguments and limit your posts and I think you have a stronger position. Good luck Xaen. Sound advice, and thanks. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
tiptop1980	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:21:00 - [136] Originally by: Menacing Presence Originally by: Xaen The fact that you think so only serves to make it clear that you haven't the slightest inkling about HCI. Originally by: Xaen ...require 1,800% more physical user actions than truly necessary Originally by: Xaen ...unnecessary physical user actions to 2,600% more than necessary. Jesus christ it's a game! WTF is wrong with you people? Who gives a flying crap if it takes you 2 seconds to do an action that should take 1 second. Originally by: Xaen But a real UI developer will write code that results in a good UI, not create the Fuster Cluck we attempt to interact with EVE on. Funny how it's worked fine for the majority of people for the last 5 years in its various incarnations . Let's let you loose with a magic pen and get us an AI wtih all of EVE's required functionality into intuitively designed hot menus shall we. 1,800% more physical excertion? I lol'd; you're sitting on your arse at a computer desk playing an internet game . QFT.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:27:00 - [137] Originally by: Tippia The UI is a tiny part of the game The UI is the game. Without it, you're just watching a movie. Originally by: Tippia And there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. Tons of systems and areas have no percievable lag, So please provide an example of something that can be improved that would benefit every single player like enhancements to the UI would. Originally by: Tippia Why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? The UI is huge. It affects every single player. Every single minute they're playing. Without exception. So again, tell me what else has such broad impact? Server uptime is the only thing I can think of. A skill queue comes close too, but neither is quite in the same league. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:30:00 - [138] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark It's a matter of perception and position. To me, improving the UI is a huge improvement. Improving the back-end to reduce lag, which has never been really a problem for me, is a tiny improvement This is where assumptions will hurt you: read what I wrote again, and in which context. I didn't talk about lag, nor about anything specific. I was talking about anything that sits behind the UI, be it gameplay, content, network structure, community, whathaveyou. The UI is a tiny part of the game, and there are quite likely things CCP can improve on that would make an immense difference for everyone for the same amount of work. So, again, why would you prefer a tiny improvement to a huge one? "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. New content doesn't amount to much if you have to play it thought a crap-stained UI.
Florio Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:30:00 - [139] Edited by: Florio on 14/05/2008 17:31:00 UI leaves so much to be desired, usability does not seem to have even been a factor in its design. And that's coming from an ardant CCP fan. They should add a little box to those flowcharts of theirs. "Is it ergonomic?"
Hegbard	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:35:00 - [140] Originally by: Xaen Yahoo search "worked fine" until Google came along. Which do you use? Erm. You keep repeating that, but it's somewhat misinformed, or simply just completely wrong. Yahoo search that crawled the web didn't come until 2004, between 2000-2004 Yahoo was using Inktomi for more advanced searches and before that they were just stuck with their horribly outdated and manually collected directory. Google came 1998 and kicked out Inktomi, Hotbot and Altavista (at that time, I'm pretty sure Altavista was the biggest) because they offered superior content and a UI that wasn't cluttered by web portal junk that no one wanted to use anyway. Don't compare apples and oranges. For the record, I agree that the UI in EVE needs love.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:40:00 - [141] Originally by: Xaen Tons of systems and areas have no percievable lag, So please provide an example of something that can be improved that would benefit every single player like enhancements to the UI would. There are two this question. One is to make the Google argument: I'm Yahoo, and content with what I've got (perhaps with the odd UI tweak here and there), but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of enterprising guys could vastly change the game by ignoring the UI to the benefit of something I haven't considered. The second is to (hypocritically) steal Arthor Dark's argument: from my perspective, the UI isn't particularly awful, so just about anything would do – new content; engine upgrades; multithreading… My point is that I don't know what would improve the game, but that includes not knowing that UI chances would make that much of a difference as opposed to some other ace the devs may have up their collective sleeve. Your arguments for why the UI is the most important way forwards don't quite convince me, unfortunately.
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:43:00 - [142] Quote: For the record, I agree that the UI in EVE needs love. Alot of love. Whereas new content may be beneficial to everyone, most of the time it's only used by a small fraction of people who can attain it. What percentage of people are actually using the new tech2 ships introduced in trinity? How many people are flying Jump Freighters? Marauders? Black Ops? a very small fraction of people. How many people use a 'warp to' function? everyone, so why not make it a shortcut?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:44:00 - [143] Originally by: Arthor Dark "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. I made a distinction between "surface" (UI) and "back-end" (everything else that feeds the UI) – you chose to narrowly interpret that as "back end = network". Again, read what I wrote and the context in which it was written.
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:50:00 - [144] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Arthor Dark "Network structure" is not lag? and "community" is the back-end? And by back end you mean content and gameplay? LOL. I made a distinction between "surface" (UI) and "back-end" (everything else that feeds the UI) û you chose to narrowly interpret that as "back end = network". Again, read what I wrote and the context in which it was written. Regardless, we're just talking semantics now. My point is that improving (don't even need to re-haul) the UI would affect everyone in the game, and not just a select few, in a very beneficial way. It would be like putting on a fresh new pair of prescription glasses, it may hurt a little while your eyes adjust, but everything is just crisp and clear. If I ever quit this game, it would be because I get fed up with constant fighting against the buggy click-click-click-click ad nauseum user interface. We have a keyboard, it can and should be used for more than just chatting.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.14 17:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Arthor Dark Regardless, we're just talking semantics now. My point is that improving (don't even need to re-haul) the UI would affect everyone in the game, and not just a select few, in a very beneficial way. [...] We have a keyboard, it can and should be used for more than just chatting. Granted, but I'll refer back to my answer #146 above: I'm still unconvinced that it would be a better investment than other, more fundamental changes.
Sinnae Takeda	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:28:00 - [146] The UI needs improvement. I could make you a 1680 x 1050 screenshot of my screen during an op and about a 2/3 of it is covered by windows I need. And I shouldn't be finding out about ctrl+click by chance. Sound needs improvement. The graphics engine should be able to handle AA. Loading my avatar into the forum shouldn't take several days. Why? Not because the players can't live with it if they're hooked. Because it's not just a game, it's also a paid service. I can understand that Jita is lagging. But the above, N years after the launch of the game, is just... sloppy. Not to mention really bad business.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:39:00 - [147] The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game.
Shnitz	Posted - 2008.05.14 18:50:00 - [148] Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 14/05/2008 16:48:23 Drone UI is still terrible. It looks like they used the same monkeys to write the old drone control code to write the new drone control code, but with added features that can have additional bugs with it. /palm forehead You know that the UI is bad, when you have to write your own macros to do some very simple functions such as release drone, engage drone and return drones to bay. I have them all neatly bound to 3 function keys, and it's a thing of beauty. Ratting with 2 drone boats and a salvager without macros is like stabbing your eyes with an ice pick, repeatedly... The client allows you to assign keys to engage drones and for return drones to bay as well for switching between passive/aggressive modes. Sorry you wasted your time on those macros. Most people have never even noticed that oh so helpful tab in the configurations menu(Pressing Esc) that allows you to map useful functions to hot keys. While the available list is not very complete, the things it does let you map to keys, usually save you a lot of grief. But I do agree that there should be an easier way to to launch drones, something as simple as dragging a folder and releasing it in space, or onto a targeted enemy would save tons of time.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:09:00 - [149] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. 1. They don't want us to make macros. 2. In order to "make the game moddable" they'd have to re-write the client, probably. The client was not build with "moddable" in mind from the core, and I don't know if Stackless Python allows it. In any case, as far as macros, imagine if the following were available in-game EVE: - the equivalent of Auctioneer - not only display the recycle value of anything you hold your mouse over (based on current mineral prices), but also worthy deals where things are underpriced / overpriced. In addition, an auto-manager for your orders, to auto-0.01 ISK your competition without you getting carpal syndrome from over-clicking. - auto-scanner, an improved version of that BACON program, one that not only checks local and keeps track of hostiles for you, but also communicates peer-to-peer over ingame channels with other users, so you can watch that hostile approach you from 5 systems away, system by system, in real time. - in-game EFT, character manager, skill queuer. Yes, the whole fitting screen re-written by us to show what EFT shows, DPS etc. Ability to save a ship setup and, with one click, have the system buy it and all the components for you, set up contracts to deliver, and fit it for you. The ability to queue skills (while your client is on) and plan long-term. - My-Alt-Controller. A little utility that lets you control one or more of your alts with remote commands from your main's ship, making them function much like drones, but without the need to run from one computer to another frantically typing in commands. - Auto-Ganker. Small utility that takes the output from that cargo scanner, quickly runs up the totals of what the victim is carrying using real-time pricing, and flashes across your screen in big green letters "OMG PROFIT 5 BILLION KILL HIM!!!" - Tom-Tom pilot. Pilot a convoluted route through high-sec and low sec, but avoiding hot-spots, your enemy's hangouts, systems with over 87 players in them, and no more than 36 jumps. On the way, get little pop-ups with info about the locals and/or what the local dangers may be. - Auto-killmail. Small addon that automatically posts your kills and losses without the need to click anything. In addition, you can keep track of what enemies fly and profile their tendencies. - Missioneer. Re-color all the red NPC crosses for each mission, with an in-game database available with NPC behaviors. Get pop-ups for when the next wave is about to hit, when they'll next jam you, etc etc, as well as color the NPC's by different colors and icons depending on whether they're DPSers or EWar's. Auto-target your NPC's for you depending on criteria such as "Kill the EW first." Auto-recall your drones if the NPC's aggro them. Etc. - Salvager. Jump into your little destroyer, and click an add-on button, then sit back and watch as your destroyer pilots itself to all the cans, tractors them in, loots only the good ****, salvages everything, and then presents you with an itemized list of what you got and a total profit number. - Ambience. Flag your collection of mp3 music, and this little add-on will switch songs based on whether you're in combat, being stalked, have found good loot, game's laggy, or other such events. - Corp-Calendar. Post events, ops, and meetings in-game. Have people sign up for events, ops, and meetings, in-game. Have everything appear as a little calendar, with little pop-up reminders, game mails being sent out to remind people, etc etc. Have people be able to specify ships they'll attend in, and the FC be able to decide whom to include or not based on ship type. Let the FC click an "invite" button in the calendar and send fleet invitations to all the people who signed up. I can go on... God, does this UI suck!
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:12:00 - [150] Again people fuzzing over tiny details. Xaen has been trying to put the UI update on the agenda for 1.8yr now. That's a way too long time. During those 5 years it was changed a couple of times and even in beta it was different. This is the best the came up with in those 5 years. In the mean time there were tons of new stuff introduced into the game and the latest that was added was the updated drone UI.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:20:00 - [151] Originally by: fuze Again people fuzzing over tiny details. Xaen has been trying to put the UI update on the agenda for 1.8yr now. That's a way too long time. During those 5 years it was changed a couple of times and even in beta it was different. This is the best the came up with in those 5 years. In the mean time there were tons of new stuff introduced into the game and the latest that was added was the updated drone UI. And let's not forget that we still can't even use those crappy sound effects for any serious gameplay (other than mission running if you consider that playing EVE ...). EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.14 19:51:00 - [152] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. 1. They don't want us to make macros. 2. In order to "make the game moddable" they'd have to re-write the client, probably. The client was not build with "moddable" in mind from the core, and I don't know if Stackless Python allows it. In any case, as far as macros, imagine if the following were available in-game EVE: - the equivalent of Auctioneer - not only display the recycle value of anything you hold your mouse over (based on current mineral prices), but also worthy deals where things are underpriced / overpriced. In addition, an auto-manager for your orders, to auto-0.01 ISK your competition without you getting carpal syndrome from over-clicking. - auto-scanner, an improved version of that BACON program, one that not only checks local and keeps track of hostiles for you, but also communicates peer-to-peer over ingame channels with other users, so you can watch that hostile approach you from 5 systems away, system by system, in real time. - in-game EFT, character manager, skill queuer. Yes, the whole fitting screen re-written by us to show what EFT shows, DPS etc. Ability to save a ship setup and, with one click, have the system buy it and all the components for you, set up contracts to deliver, and fit it for you. The ability to queue skills (while your client is on) and plan long-term. - My-Alt-Controller. A little utility that lets you control one or more of your alts with remote commands from your main's ship, making them function much like drones, but without the need to run from one computer to another frantically typing in commands. - Auto-Ganker. Small utility that takes the output from that cargo scanner, quickly runs up the totals of what the victim is carrying using real-time pricing, and flashes across your screen in big green letters "OMG PROFIT 5 BILLION KILL HIM!!!" - Tom-Tom pilot. Pilot a convoluted route through high-sec and low sec, but avoiding hot-spots, your enemy's hangouts, systems with over 87 players in them, and no more than 36 jumps. On the way, get little pop-ups with info about the locals and/or what the local dangers may be. - Auto-killmail. Small addon that automatically posts your kills and losses without the need to click anything. In addition, you can keep track of what enemies fly and profile their tendencies. - Missioneer. Re-color all the red NPC crosses for each mission, with an in-game database available with NPC behaviors. Get pop-ups for when the next wave is about to hit, when they'll next jam you, etc etc, as well as color the NPC's by different colors and icons depending on whether they're DPSers or EWar's. Auto-target your NPC's for you depending on criteria such as "Kill the EW first." Auto-recall your drones if the NPC's aggro them. Etc. - Salvager. Jump into your little destroyer, and click an add-on button, then sit back and watch as your destroyer pilots itself to all the cans, tractors them in, loots only the good ****, salvages everything, and then presents you with an itemized list of what you got and a total profit number. - Ambience. Flag your collection of mp3 music, and this little add-on will switch songs based on whether you're in combat, being stalked, have found good loot, game's laggy, or other such events. - Corp-Calendar. Post events, ops, and meetings in-game. Have people sign up for events, ops, and meetings, in-game. Have everything appear as a little calendar, with little pop-up reminders, game mails being sent out to remind people, etc etc. Have people be able to specify ships they'll attend in, and the FC be able to decide whom to include or not based on ship type. Let the FC click an "invite" button in the calendar and send fleet invitations to all the people who signed up. I can go on... God, does this UI suck! Excuse me, I need to change my pants.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.14 20:35:00 - [153] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game. They need to do both. It needs to stop sucking in it's vanilla form, and be user extensible. Players have done truly amazing things with the WoW API that makes WoW a better game than it would be without this extensibility. I want EVE to have that same benefit. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:22:00 - [154] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game. They need to do both. It needs to stop sucking in it's vanilla form, and be user extensible. Players have done truly amazing things with the WoW API that makes WoW a better game than it would be without this extensibility. I want EVE to have that same benefit. True, the vanilla version could use some work too. But given a choice, I'll take the user moddability - it'd be a far better improvement for the same amount of CCP time/money than any actual changes they'd come up with.
Taedrin Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:25:00 - [155] People have to realise that "moddable" doesn't mean "macros". I highly doubt CCP would do anything to allow us to automatically harvest and manipulate data from the game, be it local chat, combat logs, kill mails, or anything similar. I do, however, envision that sometime in the future you might be able to alter the appearance of the UI and reorganize the data to make it easier to digest. Although I should mention that CCP can't hire a decent UI developer if there aren't any who are interested in working for CCP. While we're on the subject of jobs, CCP, could you save that Associate Programmer job for me until I finish my degree this year? ;)
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:28:00 - [156] Originally by: Xaen It needs to stop sucking in it's vanilla form, and be user extensible. Players have done truly amazing things with the WoW API that makes WoW a better game than it would be without this extensibility. I want EVE to have that same benefit. CCP != Blizzard Besides, do you really want them to spend on developing an API that will take roughly 2 years to implement/test/document and be broken for another year?
Vyktor Abyss EnTech Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:32:00 - [157] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I get the growing frustration - I really do, but if I had an ounce of the talent or skill requred to work for CCP to effect change to our beloved game then I'd go for it. Xaen has the skill/talent it seems. CCP (appear to) recognise this, so why not just commit himself to the Icelandic abyss and stop being so grumpy? Have you seen the chicks in the Charleston, SC area (where I live)? The weather? I present the girls of iceland
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:46:00 - [158] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game. It's much harder to make a proper moddable UI than to just fix the one in EVE ... EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:49:00 - [159] Originally by: Taedrin People have to realise that "moddable" doesn't mean "macros". Also you don't need a moddable UI to use macros as countless macroers in EVE prove every day. WoW is probably more resistant to macroing than EVE, but it's not only due to the well-designed moddable UI, they also have code that actively looks for anything that behaves like a bot. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.14 22:53:00 - [160] Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto The question I have is why CCP is fixing the UI at all. Make the game moddable, let the players do it. It's the best solution for any game with a big enough player base - we'll do a better job of it collectively, players will get to play with a customized UI instead of a cookie-cutter one, and CCP doesn't have to spend a penny after the initial opening of the game. They need to do both. It needs to stop sucking in it's vanilla form, and be user extensible. Players have done truly amazing things with the WoW API that makes WoW a better game than it would be without this extensibility. I want EVE to have that same benefit. See, the fact that you think the current Eve UI not just could use improvement (there's never anything that can't be improved in some way or other) but that you think it "sucks", scares me. It makes me think that should you and people like you get what you want, we may end up with UI that I would hate. To me, the Eve UI is in the right direction (so to speak), and if there's any improvements that I would like to be done, it would be small details here and there (like making it easier to change ammo in several guns at the same time, for example) to make it better, not completely changing it.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.05.15 09:08:00 - [161] Originally by: Hannobaal To me, the Eve UI is in the right direction (so to speak), and if there's any improvements that I would like to be done, it would be small details here and there (like making it easier to change ammo in several guns at the same time, for example) to make it better, not completely changing it. In some systems depending on the color of the background constellation you cannot even know for sure if a module is active or not. The problem has been reported many times and still nothing toward fixing it. I can understand some intricate corp management functionality having a clumsy UI but they can't even get the most basic activity (activating a module) right. This specific UI was changed with the introduction of heat (which is an ergonomic nightmare by itself) and yet the problem was not addressed. You may call that the right direction. I don't. (and no it's not just me, watch any eve video, lots of 6 guns syndrome on megathrons and the like, because the feedback on module activation is incredibly bad). -- Heat, easy to burn your mods by mistake, hard to get it to work when you need it the most. Well designed interface CCP!
Nguyen VanPhuoc Minmatar The Halibuts	Posted - 2008.05.15 09:56:00 - [162] i'd like to see CCP say, "we've got a dedicated ui improvement team who are going to do a ground up rewrite of the UI, it wont be mod-able but it will be highly customiseable. we plan to finish the design phase in july and release it to testing in october for eventual inclusion in the next free expansion. feel free to post your ideas in the following thread" ___________________ What was that word young man!?!
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.05.15 11:41:00 - [163] Well, all other UI issues aside, I would really appreciate if they could at least be consistent in their application of context menus. For instance, if I see an item listed somewhere, I want to access Show Market Details no matter where or how the item is being displayed. This isn't the case. There are several places where this isn't available and it's kind of crappy to have to bring up the market panel, type in the item, hit search, and select it from the list too see it's market value "quickly". Another example I remember that used to drive me crazy (I don't bother with it anymore), was right clicking on an agent and using Set Destination. This only seemed to work when docked and the agent was displayed on the Agents of Interest thing. I think they may have improved it since then, but Set Destination is a handy to have option and it can be frustrating when you have to go hunting or use the map search just to get AP setup. Hell, I often leave some crap item in a place just to have a handy Set Destination shortcut via my resources list. That's kind of sad when I have to leave crap lying around in game just to have a handy navigation tool. In the spirit of not *****ing without some praise as well; Two recent improvements: - CCP finally put a Show Market Details on the context menu of the My Orders listing a patch or two ago. Very nice! - Now on the Skills listing if you have all skills or all possible skills option on, you can right click on a skill you don't have trained and get a Show Market Details on the context menu. This isn't a huge improvement because you don't mess with skills enough (after awhile) to really gain alot from this, but it is very handy. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.05.15 11:46:00 - [164] Originally by: Taedrin People have to realise that "moddable" doesn't mean "macros". I highly doubt CCP would do anything to allow us to automatically harvest and manipulate data from the game, be it local chat, combat logs, kill mails, or anything similar. I realize that, and I think that if they won't let us do it, then they should do it. There's no reason for us to do so much math and so many calculations while playing the game. Why do we have to manually add up the value of things in our hangars, cargo holds, containers, or what's on the cargo scanner window? Why can't we right-click on the tab of a corp hangar to see a list of who has access? Why must we manually look up the recycle value of anything, instead of just having the info presented if we hover the mouse over items? Why must we calculate the DPS of weapons, and of ships, manually? CCP can do a lot of things to reduce the tedium of the UI. Much more than just re-skinning it.
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.15 13:56:00 - [165] Originally by: Roy Batty68 For instance, if I see an item listed somewhere, I want to access Show Market Details no matter where or how the item is being displayed. This isn't the case. There are several places where this isn't available and it's kind of crappy to have to bring up the market panel, type in the item, hit search, and select it from the list too see it's market value "quickly". Let's not forget the new search history thing that pops up that no hotkey I've discovered will put in the text box the item you selected, so you have to take your hand BACK off the keyboard, reposition the mouse in case you bumped the mouse off, then click it. Any interface widget that requires you to switch between the keyboard and mouse more than once is an utter failure. Big, stinking F Originally by: Roy Batty68 Another example I remember that used to drive me crazy (I don't bother with it anymore), was right clicking on an agent and using Set Destination. This only seemed to work when docked and the agent was displayed on the Agents of Interest thing. I think they may have improved it since then, but Set Destination is a handy to have option and it can be frustrating when you have to go hunting or use the map search just to get AP setup. This still frustrates me endlessly! Originally by: Roy Batty68 Hell, I often leave some crap item in a place just to have a handy Set Destination shortcut via my resources list. That's kind of sad when I have to leave crap lying around in game just to have a handy navigation tool. The assets window is, sadly, my favorite navigation tool. All agents, through any interface should allow you to set destination to their system or give you a dock option if you're in space in their system, or, if you really want to go the extra mile it will give you the option to undock if you're in the wrong station in system or a station in the wrong system. And lastly, the option should turn into "open conversation with agent in station" option. Note the "with agent in station" option, since you can convo them from anywhere (and do precisely nothing useful). - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.15 14:06:00 - [166] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Taedrin People have to realise that "moddable" doesn't mean "macros". I highly doubt CCP would do anything to allow us to automatically harvest and manipulate data from the game, be it local chat, combat logs, kill mails, or anything similar. I realize that, and I think that if they won't let us do it, then they should do it. There's no reason for us to do so much math and so many calculations while playing the game. Why do we have to manually add up the value of things in our hangars, cargo holds, containers, or what's on the cargo scanner window? Why can't we right-click on the tab of a corp hangar to see a list of who has access? Why must we manually look up the recycle value of anything, instead of just having the info presented if we hover the mouse over items? Why must we calculate the DPS of weapons, and of ships, manually? CCP can do a lot of things to reduce the tedium of the UI. Much more than just re-skinning it. Minimal tedium is the hallmark of a good UI! Repackage all failing due to some random anonymous module that's damaged is completely ridiculous. *What the game should* do in this case: Repackage all but the damaged item(s). Into a status window, or a window near the items window in the hangar, display a message: "Some items could not be repaired due to damage, would you like to repair them now for 40,242 ISK, then Repackage?" In the case where the station does not have repair services, the game searches for nanite repair paste in the player's hangar and asks if they'd like to use N units to repair. In the case where they do not have any, the game searches the in station market (in a background thread!) for nanite repair paste, and asks the user if they'd like to buy N units of nanite repair paste at X per unit for a total of Y ISK to repair, then repackage. Then the user clicks yes on a non-modal window or icon, and the item is repaired, the ISK is deducted from their wallet, and the item(s) are repackaged. What EVE actually does:** Throws up a modal (fail!) dialog in the users face that must be dismissed before they can resume play. Not repackage anything, or maybe some things. Require the user to go on a damaged item scavenger hunt, or manually bring up the repair window. In effect, it puts the entire burden of a menial, annoying, unfun task (inventory management) solely on the player's shoulders. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Val Vesta	Posted - 2008.05.15 14:39:00 - [167] Edited by: Val Vesta on 15/05/2008 14:40:33 I'm relatively new to EVE and the most glaring thing I've noticed, too, is the interface. I'm a game design major and I know that the interface hovers somewhere in the top 3 most important elements of any game. It's something that is always in view and something players interact with once every few seceonds (unless you're mining). The best interface is the one that players notice the least. That's the golden rule. EA knows it (no, I don't like EA), Blizzard knows it, Nintendo knows it (the best, imo), and it works pretty well. In EVE....... I think I spend at least twice as much time looking at the UI than at the game. I don't think the interface is bad, it's just buggy as hell. Windows randomly move, open, or close during session changes, pin/unpin doesn't work or needs to be renamed transparent/not transparent, overview settings reseting, etc. Otherwise perfectly usable UI. I haven't used the corporation UI, and from the sounds of it, I don't think I ever will. I do believe CCP is working on it, they're just doing it very slow. Feels like how my high school decided to add archery to gym class in my senior year, as I don't know if I'll still be playing EVE by the time they fix the UI (no, I don't plan on quitting, I still think it's a fun game).
doesnotcompute	Posted - 2008.05.15 14:56:00 - [168] Originally by: Val Vesta I'm a game design major A what? You have university courses for that? What did you do the other 3+ years? I suppose it's more useful than "Media Studies" but?
Val Vesta	Posted - 2008.05.15 15:49:00 - [169] A lot of schools are starting those programs now. I jumped on relatively early, when very few schools were specializing in game design.
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.05.15 16:40:00 - [170] Originally by: Xaen In effect, it puts the entire burden of a menial, annoying, unfun task...solely on the player's shoulders. Sums up just about every MMO in existence. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.05.15 17:18:00 - [171] Originally by: Alz Shado Originally by: Xaen In effect, it puts the entire burden of a menial, annoying, unfun task...solely on the player's shoulders. Sums up just about every MMO in existence. Except WoW thanks entirely to user addons. Last time I played the tedium (aside from travel) was nonexistent. From a general design standpoint, user addons make perfect sense. If a user is happy with the vanilla interface, they're not required to use any addons. If a user is not, they're free to customize it to almost limitless possibilities. Intentional or not, EVE's current implementation is an attempt to use one-size-fits-all. And well, it doesn't fit all, or even most. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.15 18:15:00 - [172] Crazy UI peeves (not even talking about bugs like jumping windows): * I cannot search for my ships in my assets (only in the current station, where it's absolutely pointless since I have the ships window) * every time I travel and jump through a stargate, I have to click on the next gate on overview 2-3 times till it's actually clickable (it looks clickable but isn't) * I have to play in widescreen mode to actually see whether a module is active (and my eyes are good) * goddamn modal windows for everything including DT warning * can't contract damaged items for free... can't even deliver them to an alt or something * having buttons/controls on my screen for the unimportant, never used stuff like font size in chat windows, but context menus for the most frequently used things (like warping) and with ridiculous grouping ("make active" + "trash it") ... EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
Hannobaal Gallente Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:24:00 - [173] Edited by: Hannobaal on 17/05/2008 18:25:43 Originally by: Val Vesta overview settings reseting, They don't. That's just you not knowing how to set up your overview. You need to create and save an overview setting, create a new tab, and then assign the saved overview setting to that tab. But to be fair, overview settings have gotten a LOT more complex now since tabs were introduced.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:34:00 - [174] Originally by: Pan Crastus Crazy UI peeves (not even talking about bugs like jumping windows): * I cannot search for my ships in my assets (only in the current station, where it's absolutely pointless since I have the ships window) * every time I travel and jump through a stargate, I have to click on the next gate on overview 2-3 times till it's actually clickable (it looks clickable but isn't) * I have to play in widescreen mode to actually see whether a module is active (and my eyes are good) * goddamn modal windows for everything including DT warning * can't contract damaged items for free... can't even deliver them to an alt or something * having buttons/controls on my screen for the unimportant, never used stuff like font size in chat windows, but context menus for the most frequently used things (like warping) and with ridiculous grouping ("make active" + "trash it") ... How about the one where you containerize your hangars, to reduce lag and item mixing, and then you are completely unable to see what's in the containers unless you are in station and open them? I keep two mission hubs 30 jumps apart, to keep my standings high with all four factions, and being wholly unable to see what named gear I have lying around without spending 45 minutes in a shuttle is insanely annoying when I have to fit up a new ship. I'm doing them a favour, by reducing system queries in busy systems, and they punish me for it.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:39:00 - [175] Originally by: Nguyen VanPhuoc i'd like to see CCP say, "we've got a dedicated ui improvement team who are going to do a ground up rewrite of the UI, it wont be mod-able but it will be highly customiseable. we plan to finish the design phase in july and release it to testing in october for eventual inclusion in the next free expansion. feel free to post your ideas in the following thread" What, like the dedicated people who were going to keep the website and item database up to date? ;-P EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
The0 Minmatar 99 Problems.	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:44:00 - [176] Almost all of the reasons people are posting as to why the UI needs to be changed to allow user modifications is the reason I don't want the UI changed at all. The only thing I want is a general settings scroll bar that allows me to change the actual size of the UI without cutting off text. Just changing overall size of everything related to the UI. This would make the screen hundreds of times less cluttered imo. Especially for an FC or a CEO.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:56:00 - [177] Originally by: The0 Almost all of the reasons people are posting as to why the UI needs to be changed to allow user modifications is the reason I don't want the UI changed at all. The only thing I want is a general settings scroll bar that allows me to change the actual size of the UI without cutting off text. Just changing overall size of everything related to the UI. This would make the screen hundreds of times less cluttered imo. Especially for an FC or a CEO. I admit, some of those suggestions of Letouk's on the last page went a bit far. But why should we be forced to blunder about for market prices singly, or have to switch windows three times to figure out whether reprocessing an item is worth more than selling it, or have four different third-party websites* up to give me information on stuff in game? These are serious failings, and there's just no need for them. * - Websites in Firefox, of course, because the in-game browser is utter crap. For the love of god, CCP, just change the IGB to Firefox, and stick in a couple addons that allow for all the proof-of-identity stuff we use the IGB for now. As it is now, the "ingameboard" part of the forum URL is a sick joke.
jongalt	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:17:00 - [178] to the OP: i agree with your post. a decent design student could come up with a better UI. as it is now, it really does look like a programmer/engineer designed it. unless programmers/engineers are hugely influenced by Bauhaus aesthetics (and i dont mean they "agree" with the priniciples, but actually try to marry form, function, and aesthetics in a pleasing, easy-to-use way), i wouldnt let them touch the design part of anything. to the "UI" developers: i recommend reading any of Edward Tufte's books on information design and presentation. and to revisit your art history: start with Bauhaus and then move on to the Russian designers, then look at the Danes. -jg.
Trebor Daehdoow Gallente LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.03 02:56:00 - [179] Speaking as an old-school developer, the problem with the EVE UI isn't the UI -- it's the client's lack of customizability. The smartest thing the-company-that-must-not-be-named ever did was making their client user-extensible using the addon system. Anyone who has played the-game-that-must-not-be-named knows that the standard UI isn't really all that good. It takes about a week before the newbies learn about addons, and after that, nobody uses the standard interface -- in fact, you typically have a different addon sets for different characters. I would venture to take the position that the extensibility of the UI is one of the major reasons for TGTMNBN's success. It harnessed the free labor of thousands of talented developers (and tens of thousands of untalented ones, but nobody uses their addons) to the evil goal of making TGTMNBN more usable and attractive. If CCP truly wishes to contend with TCTMNBN for World Domination, they need to steal this idea. I would go so far as to make the evil suggestion that they base it on Lua, so as to not only steal the idea, but some of the UI developers as well. Heck, TCTMNBN has already done years of research on how to do this in a manner that does not make bottery easy (basically, it's that no matter how much computation goes on, one click = one action). CCP, you're Icelanders, descendants of Vikings! Plunder a little, by Odin! As an added bonus, Xaen would end up doing a lot of work for free. If that's not sweet revenge, what is? World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.03 02:59:00 - [180] Necros aren't cool Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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