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Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:38:00 - [61] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 17/05/2008 13:38:12 Originally by: Ayari Use a scout! I love people who use a scout. Let the scout pass freely and then uncoak and bubble the main -- Billion Isk Mission
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:43:00 - [62] Edited by: Tippia on 17/05/2008 13:45:46 Originally by: Havohej No. It wasn't. 30km Infinipoint != bubbles. Onoz! I called one thing something else (both of which were unrelated to the issue at hand). The issue of the quoted chain was the use of MWDs, and that Cranes can't use them to get out of a hictor's range. Anecdotal evidence of a buddy using a Crane does not have anything to do with that. Now, admittedly, this quote chain is a side-track to the thread itself, but if you want to comment on the main issue (infinipoints), then you shouldn't quote a discussion about the limitations of Crane/MWD combos. Quoting in context is good for you.
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 13:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Havohej No. It wasn't. 30km Infinipoint != bubbles. Onoz! I called one thing something else (both of which were unrelated). The issue of the quoted chain was the use of MWDs, and that Cranes can't use them to get out of a hictor's range. Anecdotal evidence of a buddy using a Crane does not have anything to do with that. When one of the neighborhood pirate corps (Beyond Divinity) camps with a Phobos every single day, yeah... it's got something to do with it. If he's not using an MWD, then guess what? He's getting past that Phobos ANOTHER way. I'll leave it to you guys to figure out how - why bother helping you move your goods, hm? As to 'both of which' being 'unrelated to the issue at hand', the topic of the thread is the 30km infinipoint. Not bubbles. In the 'quoted chain' that you point out, Malcanis didn't mention bubbles. Neither did you, for that matter. You only mentioned bubbles (which, you're right, ARE unrelated to the issue at hand, which is 30km infinipoint) after I pointed out that the Crane is more than capable of passing HICs in lowsec (where, by the way, they can't use bubbles at all). Quoting in context?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:00:00 - [64] Originally by: Avoheja If he's not using an MWD, then guess what? He's getting past that Phobos ANOTHER way. …which further proves my entire point: that the knee-jerk "fit MWD" answer won't work for all ships. Quote: As to 'both of which' being 'unrelated to the issue at hand', the topic of the thread is the 30km infinipoint. Not bubbles. …and the topic of the quote chain is about Cranes not being able to fit MWDs. The comment about the low-sec buddy in question didn't really add anything to that debate, and had no real point in that context.
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Avoheja If he's not using an MWD, then guess what? He's getting past that Phobos ANOTHER way. àwhich further proves my entire point: that the knee-jerk "fit MWD" answer won't work for all ships. Quote: As to 'both of which' being 'unrelated to the issue at hand', the topic of the thread is the 30km infinipoint. Not bubbles. àand the topic of the quote chain is about Cranes not being able to fit MWDs. The comment about the low-sec buddy in question didn't really add anything to that debate, and had no real point in that context. On the contrary. My 'real point in that context' is that it's irrelevant whether it can fit the MWD or not - it can get past the HIC.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:10:00 - [66] Originally by: Avoheja On the contrary. My 'real point in that context' is that it's irrelevant whether it can fit the MWD or not - it can get past the HIC. Good, then you've answered the question I posed on the last page. Glad we sorted that out. Just to be contrary though (), I would argue that going 2.5km/s (or nearly 600m/s cloaked) is far better than 850m/s in the open…
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:12:00 - [67] Edited by: Havohej on 17/05/2008 14:13:11 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Avoheja On the contrary. My 'real point in that context' is that it's irrelevant whether it can fit the MWD or not - it can get past the HIC. Good, then you've answered the question I posed on the last page. Glad we sorted that out. Just to be contrary though (), I would argue that going 2.5km/s (or nearly 600m/s cloaked) is far better than 850m/s in the openà Depends if you're skilled enough to align and get into warp before a sensor boosted HIC can lock you imo. EDIT for clarity: I mean skilled on the character sheet - I don't imagine it takes too much skill to click warp. Then again, it IS a player skill to zoom in on your cloaked ship and find something you're already mostly aligned to before you drop your gatecloak effect... hm. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:28:00 - [68] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: James Lyrus The other blockade runners don't have this issue. Therefore the problem is the Crane, not Blockade runners. Well, the Prowler can be a pretty tight fit as well, but I supposed that depends on whether you want to tank it or not (admittedly, one of the main points of the BRs is that you're supposed to run instead). Prowler can fit MWD and modules. Crane cannot. If you're taking your blockade runner beyond fitting some hardeners, then you've done something wrong. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:31:00 - [69] Correct me if I'm wrong, but: HICs take much less training than recons HICs can do, with one slot, the job of many, many modules (100?) The penalty for using the focused script, that is supposed to prevent remote assistance, does not apply when the module is inactive allowing remote sensor boosting, further reducing the need for the HIC pilot to "fit for the job" I fully understand the need there was for a cap ship counter, especially in low-sec where bubbles were impossible. I simply cannot appreciate the ease of use of such a powerful ship in general, however. They do not need to lock fast to lock cap ships, and shouldn't be able to receive remote assistance with the script loaded. IMO they do too much for not needing to compromise their own fittings whatsoever. That's about all that's wrong with them. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.17 14:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Wet Ferret IMO they do too much for not needing to compromise their own fittings whatsoever. That's about all that's wrong with them. They do too much? They do one thing, and one thing only: Keep the target warp scrambled. They don't have much dps. They don't have any drones. They aren't fast at all. They are also really expensive. Doing poor comparisons, like those with recons, you might say that a ship that's worth 100+ mil should damn well be able to lock down a ship carrying any amount of WCS. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:06:00 - [71] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 17/05/2008 18:15:53 Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 17/05/2008 18:15:39 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I just want to point out that not everyone has the luxury of a scout. 99% of the time you'd really need a 2nd account for a scout - I can't be arsed with that. Buy a shuttle at a station, fly it through, come back and fly your real ship through. Shuttles are cheap as hell, and they align real fast. Doesn't work in 0.0 - not enough stations - but in most of low-sec it's functional. Originally by: Wet Ferret Correct me if I'm wrong, but: HICs take much less training than recons HICs can do, with one slot, the job of many, many modules (100?) The penalty for using the focused script, that is supposed to prevent remote assistance, does not apply when the module is inactive allowing remote sensor boosting, further reducing the need for the HIC pilot to "fit for the job" I fully understand the need there was for a cap ship counter, especially in low-sec where bubbles were impossible. I simply cannot appreciate the ease of use of such a powerful ship in general, however. They do not need to lock fast to lock cap ships, and shouldn't be able to receive remote assistance with the script loaded. IMO they do too much for not needing to compromise their own fittings whatsoever. That's about all that's wrong with them. 1) You're wrong, HICs actually take a bit more training than recons(recons are 4 ranks to 5 plus 4 ranks to 4, as compared to 6 ranks to 5 for HICs). 2) Against most ships, you're just using a cap-intense version of a normal warp disruptor, with a bit of extra range. Warp stabbers(inbuilt or modules) are pretty rare. And besides, given that no ship can have more than 8 stabs on, it is at most the work of 9 modules, even if you want to make that argument. 3) Granted - although that's a function of the module, not the script - but gangs helping each other out is a feature, not a bug.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:51:00 - [72] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 17/05/2008 11:01:50 Originally by: Malcanis What do you mean? You can fit a blockade runner with a MWD, and very fast they are too. I'm not sure what you mean by "slower then with an AB". Are you fitting a 1Mn MWD to a blockade runner or something? I said "some". Go take a look at the Crane, for instance. With all skills maxed out, it has a PG of 150 û and with one exception, 150 PG is also what all 10MN warpdrives require to run (the one exception "only" sets you back 135, which leaves very little to fit everything else you need û it's also nigh-impossible to find on the market). So yes, in this case, you have to choose between either a 10MN AB, or a 1MN MWD. Naturally, the AB is faster û giving you a less-than-stellar top speed of 850m/s. I agree that the Crane specifically deserves a tad more powergrid, but a 3% PG implant will fix the problem in the meanwhile. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
The0 Minmatar 99 Problems.	Posted - 2008.05.17 18:59:00 - [73] Originally by: Winterblink c) bring friends Bad blobby bad!
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:44:00 - [74] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 17/05/2008 11:01:50 Originally by: Malcanis What do you mean? You can fit a blockade runner with a MWD, and very fast they are too. I'm not sure what you mean by "slower then with an AB". Are you fitting a 1Mn MWD to a blockade runner or something? I said "some". Go take a look at the Crane, for instance. With all skills maxed out, it has a PG of 150 û and with one exception, 150 PG is also what all 10MN warpdrives require to run (the one exception "only" sets you back 135, which leaves very little to fit everything else you need û it's also nigh-impossible to find on the market). So yes, in this case, you have to choose between either a 10MN AB, or a 1MN MWD. Naturally, the AB is faster û giving you a less-than-stellar top speed of 850m/s. There are mods and skills that increase powergrid on a ship, and lower powergrid some mods use.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:50:00 - [75] I got an idea. Nerf the point strength by 99% in focused mode. Done!
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:52:00 - [76] Originally by: HarderThisTime I got an idea. Nerf the point strength by 99% in focused mode. Done! In other words, turn it into a Warp Disruptor II with slightly extended range... ... ... No.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.17 19:56:00 - [77] Originally by: Avoheja Originally by: HarderThisTime I got an idea. Nerf the point strength by 99% in focused mode. Done! In other words, make it balanced... ... ... No. Yes! I like it. Thanks for asking!
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:00:00 - [78] Edited by: Avoheja on 17/05/2008 20:01:04 Paying a total of 120M ISK for a ship to be able to use a T2 warp disruptor isn't 'balanced'. EDIT: In fact, I don't know why I'm even looking at this thread anymore... you've already been proven to be an idiot. I'll leave this to the next wave of forum warriors - I've other word wars to fight.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Avoheja Edited by: Avoheja on 17/05/2008 20:01:04 Paying a total of 120M ISK for a ship to be able to use a T2 warp disruptor isn't 'balanced'. EDIT: In fact, I don't know why I'm even looking at this thread anymore... you've already been proven to be an idiot. I'll leave this to the next wave of forum warriors - I've other word wars to fight. A HAC that can take the place of an interdictor or a recon needs an infinite point 30km scrambler to be worth 120m and/or fill a useful role? No bias there.
Gwendion Gallente No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:09:00 - [80] How about people learn how to counter them? Everyone is bringing up the Crane. (Rare mind you, ive seen maybe 5 in the last year, so.. yeah) Thats a moot point. If you cant work with a crane, dont fly it? Hmmm. Here are some ways to counter ANY scraming. Doesnt matter if its 1 point or 100. * MWD. Jet back to the gate. Unless there are multiple webbers with 0 lag, you'll have a good chance to get back there. * Scout. Multiple account or single, or yourself. * Cloak. As soon as you jump, and see the gate camp, Cloak up. Its more difficult than you think to uncloak someone. ALign while cloaked, Drop cloak, warp. This always works if your not uncloaked before you can align. Also, align to the nearest celestial, not another gate, warp in at 100, then instantly warp somewhere else as soon as your out of warp, close in-line, and do this once or twice, then get out. * Energy Neuts. I'll give you a little secret here, most Hictors arent setup for perma bubbling/scramming. Even small ones will do the job. * Don't go into low-sec? * Fit a tank, and get out of range. Hictors cant use AB/MWD/anything when using it. Theyre pretty much stuck there. Stop complaining, most of you dont even fly with a WCS anyhow, 6 extra km range is nothing. I can still tackle your WCS ass with an arazu at omg, 48km range with 6 points!?? NERF THE ARAZU! Or 12 Points at 18km. Did I mention I can use an MWD and keep up with your slow asses? Hictor cant... Please, just because it makes it easier, doesn't mean its overpowered. The ability was there LONG BEFORE HICTORS EVER CAME INTO PLAY. Hictors are a lazy man's tackler. Its weak, its pathetic, and to properly do its job, Hictors need to be using a bubble, or tackling a Carrier. Otherwise, there are better ships for the job Period. Dont act like this is some new improved omgiwinbutton, its nothing new, the abilities have always been there. Just because YOU didnt notice before, doesnt make it not so.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:12:00 - [81] Originally by: HarderThisTime Edited by: HarderThisTime on 17/05/2008 20:08:33 Originally by: Avoheja Edited by: Avoheja on 17/05/2008 20:01:04 Paying a total of 120M ISK for a ship to be able to use a T2 warp disruptor isn't 'balanced'. A HAC that can take the place of an interdictor or a recon needs an infinite point 30km scrambler to be worth 120m and/or fill a useful role? No bias there. Originally by: Avoheja EDIT: In fact, I don't know why I'm even looking at this thread anymore... you've already been proven to be an idiot. Troll. A HAC does a hell of a lot more DPS than a HIC and has a LOT less tank. Enough tank for lowsec gate guns, if it's not nano-fitted, sure, but still - apples and oranges. I agree with Avoheja - you're in idiot. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:26:00 - [82] Originally by: Havohej A HAC does a hell of a lot more DPS than a HIC and has a LOT less tank. Enough tank for lowsec gate guns, if it's not nano-fitted, sure, but still - apples and oranges. Its a heavy cruiser. A cruiser with uuuber resists, an extra damage mod. Its a different flavor of HAC. Originally by: Havohej I agree with Avoheja - you're in idiot. Troll.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:34:00 - [83] And we wonder why lowsec is so empty...? This thread tells much. ("We want more people in lowsec, but we don't want to nerf the big reason people don't go there!")
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:36:00 - [84] Originally by: Morcam And we wonder why lowsec is so empty...? This thread tells much. ("We want more people in lowsec, but we don't want to nerf the big reason people don't go there!") People stayed out of lowsec before HICs. Nothing has actually changed. The people who went into lowsec before had their reasons for doing so and those reasons are all still in place.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:42:00 - [85] Originally by: Avoheja Originally by: Morcam And we wonder why lowsec is so empty...? This thread tells much. ("We want more people in lowsec, but we don't want to nerf the big reason people don't go there!") People stayed out of lowsec before HICs. Nothing has actually changed. The people who went into lowsec before had their reasons for doing so and those reasons are all still in place. I suppose you don't count the 30km instalocking infinipoint, which happens to be the whole point of this thread... Also, in case you haven't noticed, the new players we get every day are not going into lowsec, partly because of the glorious HIC. I have nothing against the idea of the HIC, I just don't think it should be infinipoint in lowsec on every ship (as in, just on caps). It renders warp stabs and warp disruptors/warp scrams useless.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:53:00 - [86] Edited by: Ki An on 17/05/2008 20:53:10 Originally by: Morcam I suppose you don't count the 30km instalocking infinipoint, which happens to be the whole point of this thread... Learn to reading comprehension! He said, nothing has changed, as people wheren't going into low sec before HICs either. There is no difference between now and then. Then you have the fact that a gallente recon can do the same job as a HIC. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Gwendion Gallente No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.05.17 20:56:00 - [87] Originally by: Ki An Learn to reading comprehension! He said, nothing has changed, as people wheren't going into low sec before HICs either. There is no difference between now and then. Then you have the fact that a gallente recon can do the same job as a HIC. Not just the same job, but better. Damage + Speed. Hictors CANT keep up with you, an arazu can, and at better ranges.
Avoheja Caldari The Venture Co.	Posted - 2008.05.17 21:10:00 - [88] Thanks... 'cause if I had to actually reply to that one myself, my head would've exploded.
Morcam	Posted - 2008.05.17 21:11:00 - [89] Edited by: Morcam on 17/05/2008 21:13:16 Originally by: Ki An Edited by: Ki An on 17/05/2008 20:53:10 Originally by: Morcam I suppose you don't count the 30km instalocking infinipoint, which happens to be the whole point of this thread... Learn to reading comprehension! He said, nothing has changed, as people wheren't going into low sec before HICs either. There is no difference between now and then. Then you have the fact that a gallente recon can do the same job as a HIC. Read the entire post. And since you obviously have perfect reading COMPREHENSION (just don't do it) I'm not entirely sure why you think the gallente recon can do the same job. Recons can be countered by warp stabs, HIC's can't. EDIT: and while I'm at it, why do the ebil piwate gatecamps need speed? Web + 30km scram means you aren't going anywhere fast anyways.
Spaztick	Posted - 2008.05.17 21:31:00 - [90] HICs are fine, learn to play. But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.

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