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[ISSUE] BACON and basic logserver exploitation

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:09:00 - [31] Supported. (Damn, mandatory posting for voting sux)
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Loyal Servant I think bacon is an exploit plain and simple. I think it should be ruled as such. I am sure all the carebears are loving bacon, but if CCP wanted people knowing that a hostile entered the same system as you by means of an audible prompt they would have designed that into the game. Sorry, bacon needs to go bye bye, as do anything else that supports cheating/macroing. And if CCP wanted to let you see what a hypothetical ship fit looked like without having to skill into it, they'd have coded Eve Fitting Tools, right? Oh, wait, they let the players create utilities, because we're better at it. Also, what's with this "BACON supports macroing" crap? I don't know of any macro in existence that uses sound prompts from another program as an input, and while I've hardly dissected the code of BACON, I don't imagine it feeds out any other kind of output. Besides, if a macro wanted that functionality, it'd get it itself, either by analyzing the logserver itself or just via screen scraping. This is not a difficult problem for a macroer to solve, or for that matter anyone with even a little knowledge of coding. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Avalira Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:39:00 - [33] I'll come straight out and say I have used it and find it doesn't really add much. Even while I have bacon running I keep local open and visible. Often I'd find myself visually noticing someone entering local at the same time I hear the sound. Bacon is not the problem, it's the underlying problem with how local is handled. It gives an audible warning instead of visual, with the same information. If you truly want to remove bacon and any hidden variant of it then remove the need to use it by improving local. ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:48:00 - [34] I am not sure about this add on program enhancement dance. We have the PvP'rs all bent out of shape with the carebears because apparently it gives the carebears an advantage? If that is true I do believe there are plenty of PvP'rs out there that could produce a counter. I am guessing mind you but I would not doubt it. I wonder how that would go over? Naw I see this leading into something that is probably already being abused. CCP needs to either say it is OK or not. One of the other.
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:04:00 - [35] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 23/05/2008 07:08:23 Originally by: Fluffy Kitten An EVE custom UI will only be able to access information that the developers give the UI SDK access to though, while you're acting like it will default to what the EQ2 SDK provides. Personally I believe we should go in one "extreme" way or the other, e.g. either we allow this full out and have the major powerblocks starting automated information sharing over 2000+ members; or that's not at all what we want from this game and we remove this venue now and even possibly look into automatic visibility in Local again (e.g. you shouldn't be, unless you talk). I feel the latter, or even a status quo in this area, is alot more true to the EVE that I signed up for. My point is, beeping a sound when someone comes to local is from stone age when compaired to what you can do with even severly limited Custom UI support (aka SDK). As i said earlier, you don't need actual support from the game itself (aka SDK) to accomplish some of the features i mentioned. People blaming this program when they cant a kill, thats laughable at best. Even unique download numbers arent that high, certainly not high enough to make it a default program for even half of the low to null sec population. Yet people are still whining over it. Personally, this shows how the forum population is closed minded and selfish, the only valid argument i saw was the logserver access point. In reality, you dont even need a logserver connection if you want to this stuff. All this "it goes against the spirit of the game" is pathetic. Current issue in my opinion is the Local itself, this shows how powerful local is, most of the people are whining about the local itself instead of Bacen whether they know it or not.
Rawr Cristina Naqam Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:43:00 - [36] bacon only amplifies the local issue, but I believe neither have a place in EVE so... /signed ...
Zeknichov Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:48:00 - [37] All bacon does is give you an audio alert instead of a visual. How is that an exploit or bad at all? CCP should remove bacon and then implement its features into local. Of course the better solution is just removing local, but I'm not sure I even like that solution because then people will just need to have their scanner open 24/7 hitting the refresh key. I'd rather have local then have to hit refresh on my scanner all the time.
Messerschmitt facility Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:49:00 - [38] /signed. Off with Bacon _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Joshua Foiritain Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:59:00 - [39] Yesh. -----
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:28:00 - [40] -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Arshes Nei Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:36:00 - [41] Edited by: Arshes Nei on 23/05/2008 08:36:36 Imho this opens the door to third party programs being required for eve. I dont want a single third party program being required for eve anymore than i want a couple dozens. This is already used by people running two clients for pvp. One client is a scout and gets placed in a cruicial system hostiles have to cross, and then the player can focus his attention completly on the other client as he gets notified if anything happens on the other client. This is bad. Sitting in space and waiting for hostiles to show up might be boring, yet its a players job and not something a program should do. Mining is boring too and yet we dont have tools helping with that.
Max Teranous Teranous Productions	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:13:00 - [42] Yup. Max
Sariyah HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:15:00 - [43] Yup, these things are ebil and dangerous. Moar fight against macroers etc.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:35:00 - [44] OP fails. CCP has already commented that they don't like BACON and will fix the log server. This thread is worthless. I'll agree I guess, but CCP doesn't care about our opinion on this matter, they are fixing it and that will be the end of that. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
MrRx7 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:40:00 - [45] I'm all for 3rd party apps, but programs that ruin the game play or other users should not be allowed.
Colonel Rykef Animus Exuro	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:48:00 - [46] Edited by: Colonel Rykef on 23/05/2008 10:51:17 signed, in short it gives one player an unfair advantage over the other. its practically on the same level as botting or macro mining But i thought the point was moot anyway as CCP said their going to stop programs using their logs
The PitBoss Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 11:46:00 - [47] signed Thanks, PB Siggys and Banners by: Kalen Vox
Kelhannar Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:13:00 - [48] /signed
Slave 775 Ministry of Punishment Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:55:00 - [49] I hate to say it, but i agree with the goon.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.05.23 15:41:00 - [50] Originally by: Slave 775 I hate to say it, but i agree with the goon. It's ok , everyone went there... you'll survive
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.05.23 15:56:00 - [51] /signed Bacon is a metagaming tool... metagaming tools should be reserved for use only by cheating BoB devs!
Kyle Frost Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Kyle Frost on 23/05/2008 16:01:41 Edited by: Kyle Frost on 23/05/2008 16:00:53 Supported. BACON has to go. Also the mechanics which allow it to work should be changed in such way so that no similar mods/addons remain operational. Originally by: Siona Windweaver My point is, beeping a sound when someone comes to local is from stone age when compaired to what you can do with even severly limited Custom UI support (aka SDK). As i said earlier, you don't need actual support from the game itself (aka SDK) to accomplish some of the features i mentioned. People blaming this program when they cant a kill, thats laughable at best. Even unique download numbers arent that high, certainly not high enough to make it a default program for even half of the low to null sec population. Yet people are still whining over it. Personally, this shows how the forum population is closed minded and selfish, the only valid argument i saw was the logserver access point. In reality, you dont even need a logserver connection if you want to this stuff. All this "it goes against the spirit of the game" is pathetic. Current issue in my opinion is the Local itself, this shows how powerful local is, most of the people are whining about the local itself instead of Bacen whether they know it or not. From what i read in your posts it appears that you are the closed minded one so i will try to make this simple. In almost every combat, including EVE PvP, there is a thing called the element of surprise. What BACON does is it brings that element down to 0! Consider the following example: My corp is at war with your corp. You mine ore in some populated 0.5 system, let's say - Nonni. In order to be safe, you constantly have to scroll up and down the local chat list. Let's say you grow tired after a while and you stop doing it. Then i have a chance to surprise you - enter the system and find your ship before you notice that there is a hostile in local ( and i have done so on numerous occasions ). That is simply not possible if you have BACON. Even the most careless miner can hear the audio warning and warp to safety. So what happens then - you dock as soon as i enter system , i go around until i find the station which you are on and i camp it. So you are bored inside the station because you can't mine your ore and i am bored outside of it because i can't blow your ship. Let me guess - that's what you will call a win/win situation , right ? The same example can be true for lowsec and 0.0 areas. BACON "boosts" the natural awareness of the person playing and should not be allowed ! ------ Let the gun do the talking...
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:21:00 - [53] Edited by: Havohej on 23/05/2008 16:20:43 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Papa Ina Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto crap Truth (from a Goon ) More crap...If that can't be automated, I don't know what can. That's the point - NOTHING! NOTHING should be automated. NOTHING should be done for you - not moving your ore from cargo to can, not looting your wrecks, not turning in your missions, not shooting the rats, not activated/deactivating your modules, and DEFINITELY not watching Local to see if you're safe or not! First of hopefully very, very few times I check the box to support a Goon's thread - though it's already been stated by CCP that they're working on changing the way the logserver works to make BACON and similar programs ineffective. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:25:00 - [54] Originally by: Papa Ina I would like it brought to the attention of CCP that BACON and applications like it are detrimental to the game in general. If you want protection from wardecs and low/0.0 space pirates you should use in game means. I'm going to support this issue, but as a point of order can you try to ensure that issues have questions in them please. Ultimately we're going to be voting things onto an agenda which is going to be presented and debated with ccp and we're going to want questions so we can bring back answers. Doesn't have to be complicated, even "hey ccp are you going to fix this and when?" Thanks. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:55:00 - [55] Originally by: Havohej That's the point - NOTHING! NOTHING should be automated. NOTHING should be done for you - not moving your ore from cargo to can, not looting your wrecks, not turning in your missions, not shooting the rats, not activated/deactivating your modules, and DEFINITELY not watching Local to see if you're safe or not! First of hopefully very, very few times I check the box to support a Goon's thread - though it's already been stated by CCP that they're working on changing the way the logserver works to make BACON and similar programs ineffective. So autopilot, auto-repeat on modules, auto-reload, stack all, and all the other stuff the game does for us, are all against the spirit of the game? Hell, why doesn't CCP just send you 1400mm shells in the mail so you can reload your own guns? Don't want that being automated, now do we? Maybe have a bunch of people in a room with slide rules working out tracking calculations. The whole reason this game is on computer is to automate the useless crap needed to make a complex game function. I don't want to play a game of record-keeping or inventory management, I want to play a game of space combat(/industry/whatever). Some crap along those lines is necessary, but good game design is to minimize it, not to get all gung-ho about being a Luddite and proud of it. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So autopilot, auto-repeat on modules, auto-reload, stack all, and all the other stuff the game does for us, are all against the spirit of the game? Hell, why doesn't CCP just send you 1400mm shells in the mail so you can reload your own guns? Don't want that being automated, now do we? Maybe have a bunch of people in a room with slide rules working out tracking calculations. The whole reason this game is on computer is to automate the useless crap needed to make a complex game function. I don't want to play a game of record-keeping or inventory management, I want to play a game of space combat(/industry/whatever). Some crap along those lines is necessary, but good game design is to minimize it, not to get all gung-ho about being a Luddite and proud of it. Ever seen anything else in the sci-fi genre? Autopilot is a given. Hell, a Boeing 777 can be set to autopilot and let go until it's time to land. When your ammo is reloaded into your empty launchers/turrets, do they automatically pick a target and turn themselves on again? No. You can act as dumb as you want, but it doesn't change anything - if you really are too dense to be able to recognize what side of the 'in spirit' you're on, that's your problem. If BACON WERE in the spirit of the game, CCP wouldn't be changing the way logserver works to stop BACON from working, now would they? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Havohej Ever seen anything else in the sci-fi genre? Autopilot is a given. Hell, a Boeing 777 can be set to autopilot and let go until it's time to land. When your ammo is reloaded into your empty launchers/turrets, do they automatically pick a target and turn themselves on again? No. You can act as dumb as you want, but it doesn't change anything - if you really are too dense to be able to recognize what side of the 'in spirit' you're on, that's your problem. If BACON WERE in the spirit of the game, CCP wouldn't be changing the way logserver works to stop BACON from working, now would they? Autopilot is a given, which is why it didn't exist for the first couple years of Eve, right? Also, I seem to recall a lot of sci-fi that didn't have it - Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters. Oddly, the games that look most like Eve. And if you'll claim "Even a 777 can autopilot", then why don't you accept "Even a F-14 can read IFF codes"? As for reloading, if NOTHING! should be automated, why does it automate reloading when a gun is empty? Clearly, firing and reloading are two separate actions, why don't we mandate users provide two separate inputs for them? This isn't me acting dumb, this is me mocking your inconsistencies. You claim nothing should be automated, but gleefully justify everything that is. You don't have a clue about the "spirit" of this game, you just have an abiding love the status quo. And let me tell you, buddy, that love is blind as all hell. I can at least understand that attitude from CCP, because they're the ones who have to code any changes and make sure they work, and that it all fits together. But for a player to start licking their boots just because the mud on them is old, dry, and comfortingly familiar is nonsensical. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Autopilot is a given, which is why it didn't exist for the first couple years of Eve, right? Also, I seem to recall a lot of sci-fi that didn't have it - Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters. Oddly, the games that look most like Eve. And if you'll claim "Even a 777 can autopilot", then why don't you accept "Even a F-14 can read IFF codes"? As for reloading, if NOTHING! should be automated, why does it automate reloading when a gun is empty? Clearly, firing and reloading are two separate actions, why don't we mandate users provide two separate inputs for them? This isn't me acting dumb, this is me mocking your inconsistencies. You claim nothing should be automated, but gleefully justify everything that is. You don't have a clue about the "spirit" of this game, you just have an abiding love the status quo. And let me tell you, buddy, that love is blind as all hell. I can at least understand that attitude from CCP, because they're the ones who have to code any changes and make sure they work, and that it all fits together. But for a player to start licking their boots just because the mud on them is old, dry, and comfortingly familiar is nonsensical. Autopilot was added 'cause it should've been there to begin with. I wasn't talking about other people who made sci-fi games and failed - I was talking about real sci-fi. On Star Trek, the captain says "Helm, lay in a course." Helmsman says "kk mon capitain, course layed in." Captain says "engage" and guess what happens? The ship goes where it was told to go, along the path it was told to go along. A ship's on-board navigation computer should be able to handle things like that. F-14's can read IFF codes, sure, but not until they're actually in range of the other plane to get the IFF signal from that plane's transponder. Here we're talking about knowing that somebody has come into the system with a audio signal so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own ass and watch local. Your IFF analogy doesn't work, if for no other reason than for the fact that we don't have a system-wide radar on our ships that tells us who is in system, where they are, what they're flying and what kind of drones they're using. Reloading an empty weapon is similar to pulling the slide on a 9mm, pulling the trigger which empties the chamber, and then as the slide moves forward again it pulls the next round into place - but it does not automatically fire again until you pull the trigger again. It makes sense that technology Are you really this stupid? If you think I'm a status quo guy, look up my post history. If you think love of this game is blind, why are you here a tall? Why aren't you off playing Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Lana Tsipar Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.05.23 18:15:00 - [59] BACON is fine, it's not changing anything that Local didn't already provide.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.23 18:57:00 - [60] yup. been going on alot longer than bacon, and thankfully bacon brought what has been going on with farmers for a long time to the surface.

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