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[ISSUE] BACON and basic logserver exploitation

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Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:03:00 - [1] I would like it brought to the attention of CCP that BACON and applications like it are detrimental to the game in general. If you want protection from wardecs and low/0.0 space pirates you should use in game means.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:07:00 - [2] So very signed ---
Haakelen United Forces	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:07:00 - [3] Of course.
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:08:00 - [4] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 22/05/2008 19:21:23 I fail to see the point of harmfulness that some people believe in programs like BACON. On the contrary, it enhances the game experience imo. Its not a macro program that allows you to remain AFK for the rest of your life or something. So much whinage for just a small beep is surprising, considering nearly all Online games uses a method of log reading in real time to measure DPS or making statistics. Some of these programs are so advanced you can often actually guess pretty accurately the gear of your opponent or working out his attacks, even figure out if he is getting help from far away or if he has an invisible ally nearby. All of these are done by merely parsing the logs. Here is a program called ACT, its popular for Everquest 2. You can do all the things I said in real time if you know how to use it, you can do even more with it if you raid regularly. Such as predicting NPC AE's, seeing NPC DPS, encounter timers, spell damages, things this program can do is amazing, yet i have never ever saw a thread thats pointing anything bad about it. I respectfully disagree with you. Though i can hear the swarm coming this way to agree with you whole heartily
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:13:00 - [5] I travel with local open, I'm constantly scanning the space around me, every trip through empire is tinged with the fear off death. I think it's me that has the enhanced game experience.
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:14:00 - [6] what does that program do ? . "MY COMMENTS IN NO WAY REFLECT MY CORP OR ALLIANCE"
Roscoe Rhoads Mont Pelerin Society	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Roscoe Rhoads on 22/05/2008 19:17:27 Signed. Originally by: zykerx what does that program do ? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=753528 -- Human action is purposeful behavior.
Delezar Hellfire-Empire	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:19:00 - [8] Agreed.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:22:00 - [9] /not signed. BACON is exactly the kind of program that should be encouraged by CCP - automate the boring crap, leave the player to actually play the game. If they're going to let the UI suck by default, at least let us fix it. Originally by: zykerx what does that program do ? It checks local for hostiles, and plays a sound if any come in. Basically, it's an automated scanner for local. The log server is how it's implemented technically, since the EULA bans programs that check game data directly. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto automate the boring crap The boring crap is coming under attack?
Tiger Fai	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:26:00 - [11] Agreed. It's not in the spirit of the game (much like local, constellation chat is more than enough :P). -- TOO MANY ENERMY
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Papa Ina Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto automate the boring crap The boring crap is coming under attack? If BACON fought the PvP for you, I'd agree. Scanning local is boring, and it's exactly the sort of thing that led humans to invent automation in the first place. It's a simple algorithm that involves scanning large amounts of data and doing a list comparison - this is the sort of thing computers in the 1950s were built for. And it's non-interactive, meaning that there's no macroing concerns. If that can't be automated, I don't know what can. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:31:00 - [13] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 22/05/2008 21:06:48 Honestly, if so many people is whining about a program that beeps when a hostile comes to system, i think people will actually riot if CCP allows custom UI's. I cannot believe how a simple thing that can be easily implemented to an UI if there was an option for completely customizing it, causing so much whinage. Local is a window that everyone has on their screen by default when going into low sec and beyond. A simple beep does not change that, if anything, it makes it a must to be open to check who has entered to the system. If CCP really gives in to this whinefest and does block this program, i think everyone can say goodbye to even slightly customizable UI. This program is nothing, when compaired to what you can do with a customized UI. Edit: I actually thought that massive whine thread was a prank, or an aprils fools joke or something (i took a break before it was released and only recently came back). Stuff like this and even more have already happened on different games (aka UI customization), this is the only time i've ever saw massive outcry againts an improvement that doesnt even provide something more than already available. You'll be amazed with what one person can do with simple combat logs or Custom UI packages. Producing dynamic map POI's (Points of Intrest), scalable map even if it isnt available with the game itself (player made maps), one click curing (removing a negative effect) to any raid member, queueing more than 3 cures, extra pet behaviors that isnt available with the original UI, timing display for your active spells, auto-logins etc etc. More advanced stuff requires indepth game knowledge. These are only basic things that a UI can do. Dont believe me? Check this out. These are some of the basic things you can do with a custom UI. You dont even need an actual support from the game itself to make this stuff. Beeping a sound when someone comes near you is from stone age when compaired to more serious stuff. Everyone says they want custom UI, if they cant even take a basic program (no offense to creators), how can they think they can manage the chaos (!) that comes with custom UI's? People need to get beyond these things, it isnt a programs fault if you die, or cant find a target to gank, its only your own damn fault. That program adds nothing that isnt already there. Edit 2: Just to clarify, both ProfitUI and ACT is widely used within EQ2 community. Infact, ProfitUI itself is the most popular UI, and ACT is being used by every PvPer and Raider.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Siona Windweaver Honestly, if so many people is whining about a program that beeps when a hostile comes to system, i think people will actually riot if CCP allows custom UI's. I cannot believe how a simple thing that can be easily implemented to an UI if there was an option for completely customizing it. Local is a window that everyone has on their screen by default when going into low sec and beyond. If CCP really give in to this whinefest does block the program, i think anyone can say goodbye even slightly customizable UI. This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Too many people are worshiping the status quo, despite its obvious deficiencies, and it might ruin the chances for real change, as well as band-aids like BACON. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.22 19:39:00 - [15] Signed. _________________________________________________________
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:15:00 - [16] I'd much rather see some recognition on how tools like these have been in use for years in spite of people trying to bring them to the light. And a lot more attention on macro exploits which are insanely well distributed everywhere. Bacon is a tool which put **** into the light, kudos for that. The functionality itself will cease when the Logserver gets subjected to change (encryption). The impact of the tool has, quite frankly, been hilarious. Go look at Hydra space. CAOD FTW.
Ishina Fel Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:22:00 - [17] Supporting the outlawing and, if possible, removal of log server tools.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.22 20:31:00 - [18] Umm... I went and checked out the info page on the thing, but... sorry, I don't see the problem. Originally by: Release Note to comply with CCP's request. Especially if they do that. Can someone explain exactly what issue(s) they have with it, more specifically than "it breaks the spirit of the game!" 'Cause you can argue that about lots of stuff endlessly... cause everyone has a different spirit, if you catch my meaning; and only CCP can ultimately decide if something breaks their idea of it. Hence, of course, the CSM and this forum: so, convince me. Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.23 00:58:00 - [19] It needs to be looked at. All a dev needs to do is stroll into Venal, poke the ISK farmers for 5 seconds in local, and see how fast they logoff. A prime example of how the logserver needs to be changed. Goal Line Blitz, an American Football MMO
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Sakura Nihil It needs to be looked at. All a dev needs to do is stroll into Venal, poke the ISK farmers for 5 seconds in local, and see how fast they logoff. A prime example of how the logserver needs to be changed. But how did BACON change this? I remember farmers and macrominers from whence i last was here, pre-pork. Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Zeknichov Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:07:00 - [21] Bacon is fine, local is the problem.
Minud Distr	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:09:00 - [22] ISK farmers are not the main problem, IMHO: yes they should be dealt with, but it's another issue. Still, it shouldn't be possible to use the logserver for intel purposes, it really is way too powerful.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Minud Distr it really is way too powerful. please support this position and quantify what you can..? i honestly want to know what you think, because i see people honked off at the results but not articulating Why It's Bad. Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Fluffy Kitten Mont Pelerin Society	Posted - 2008.05.23 01:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Fluffy Kitten on 23/05/2008 01:14:25 Originally by: Siona Windweaver i think people will actually riot if CCP allows custom UI's An EVE custom UI will only be able to access information that the developers give the UI SDK access to though, while you're acting like it will default to what the EQ2 SDK provides. Personally I believe we should go in one "extreme" way or the other, e.g. either we allow this full out and have the major powerblocks starting automated information sharing over 2000+ members; or that's not at all what we want from this game and we remove this venue now and even possibly look into automatic visibility in Local again (e.g. you shouldn't be, unless you talk). I feel the latter, or even a status quo in this area, is alot more true to the EVE that I signed up for.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Bad Harlequin Originally by: Sakura Nihil It needs to be looked at. All a dev needs to do is stroll into Venal, poke the ISK farmers for 5 seconds in local, and see how fast they logoff. A prime example of how the logserver needs to be changed. But how did BACON change this? I remember farmers and macrominers from whence i last was here, pre-pork. Let me put it this way. BACON works off the logserver, just as it appears the macroer's programs do. They are two sides of the same coin, in this respect, should be changed as they give an edge to people using them. That being said though, this issue is a bit of a moot point, as CCP has stated it intends to change the way the logserver works in previous postings. Goal Line Blitz, an American Football MMO
Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:18:00 - [26] Local as intel is bad enough. Ctrl-Q is forever a plague. If there was any reason why CCP hasn't allowed 3rd party tools like UI tools as WoW has, this must be one of them. So if we aren't going to have full support of these kind of tools, stop the cause of it.
Divad Ginleek Gateway Industries House of Mercury	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:43:00 - [27] Haven't tried this program yet, and it does seem to push things a little far toward the "easy button". But it seems that the same bored griefers that want local removed seem to hate BACON, so that means I should like it =D. Just face it guys. Your argument for free targets is thinly disguised by phrases like: "it goes against the spirit of the game". All you want is to be able to hop from belt to belt killing anything not nanoed better or higher skilled/lower sec rating than you, with no source of intel whatsoever. Scanner? Right, by the time a ship shows up on it they're most likely already warping to you. Just drop the local business. CCP, and the rest of us see straight through it. But, signed, because I do think BACON goes a little too far. Local is more than sufficient if your paying attention. ::insert witty signature here::
Wolf Soldier Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.05.23 03:59:00 - [28] signed
Loyal Servant Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.23 04:02:00 - [29] I think bacon is an exploit plain and simple. I think it should be ruled as such. I am sure all the carebears are loving bacon, but if CCP wanted people knowing that a hostile entered the same system as you by means of an audible prompt they would have designed that into the game. Sorry, bacon needs to go bye bye, as do anything else that supports cheating/macroing.
Weazy Trip	Posted - 2008.05.23 04:05:00 - [30] I think bacon is fine. Its an automation designed to allow people to grind isk with a little less paranoia. Great! I welcome its addition just for the fact that making isk helps a player fund quality pvp-- fleet battles, cap battles, pos sieging, land-holding battles. If a person is farming some isk, how is it affecting you? A nano fit vaga will *****a ratting fit raven, so this type of pvp isnt even honorable. Bacon isnt the problem, its the solution to a form of griefing.
Dlardrageth Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:09:00 - [31] Supported. (Damn, mandatory posting for voting sux)
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:33:00 - [32] Originally by: Loyal Servant I think bacon is an exploit plain and simple. I think it should be ruled as such. I am sure all the carebears are loving bacon, but if CCP wanted people knowing that a hostile entered the same system as you by means of an audible prompt they would have designed that into the game. Sorry, bacon needs to go bye bye, as do anything else that supports cheating/macroing. And if CCP wanted to let you see what a hypothetical ship fit looked like without having to skill into it, they'd have coded Eve Fitting Tools, right? Oh, wait, they let the players create utilities, because we're better at it. Also, what's with this "BACON supports macroing" crap? I don't know of any macro in existence that uses sound prompts from another program as an input, and while I've hardly dissected the code of BACON, I don't imagine it feeds out any other kind of output. Besides, if a macro wanted that functionality, it'd get it itself, either by analyzing the logserver itself or just via screen scraping. This is not a difficult problem for a macroer to solve, or for that matter anyone with even a little knowledge of coding. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Avalira Pax Minor Expiscor Pario Addo	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:39:00 - [33] I'll come straight out and say I have used it and find it doesn't really add much. Even while I have bacon running I keep local open and visible. Often I'd find myself visually noticing someone entering local at the same time I hear the sound. Bacon is not the problem, it's the underlying problem with how local is handled. It gives an audible warning instead of visual, with the same information. If you truly want to remove bacon and any hidden variant of it then remove the need to use it by improving local. ------------- Selling the following: Probe BPC's ARK JF 4.5b
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.23 05:48:00 - [34] I am not sure about this add on program enhancement dance. We have the PvP'rs all bent out of shape with the carebears because apparently it gives the carebears an advantage? If that is true I do believe there are plenty of PvP'rs out there that could produce a counter. I am guessing mind you but I would not doubt it. I wonder how that would go over? Naw I see this leading into something that is probably already being abused. CCP needs to either say it is OK or not. One of the other.
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:04:00 - [35] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 23/05/2008 07:08:23 Originally by: Fluffy Kitten An EVE custom UI will only be able to access information that the developers give the UI SDK access to though, while you're acting like it will default to what the EQ2 SDK provides. Personally I believe we should go in one "extreme" way or the other, e.g. either we allow this full out and have the major powerblocks starting automated information sharing over 2000+ members; or that's not at all what we want from this game and we remove this venue now and even possibly look into automatic visibility in Local again (e.g. you shouldn't be, unless you talk). I feel the latter, or even a status quo in this area, is alot more true to the EVE that I signed up for. My point is, beeping a sound when someone comes to local is from stone age when compaired to what you can do with even severly limited Custom UI support (aka SDK). As i said earlier, you don't need actual support from the game itself (aka SDK) to accomplish some of the features i mentioned. People blaming this program when they cant a kill, thats laughable at best. Even unique download numbers arent that high, certainly not high enough to make it a default program for even half of the low to null sec population. Yet people are still whining over it. Personally, this shows how the forum population is closed minded and selfish, the only valid argument i saw was the logserver access point. In reality, you dont even need a logserver connection if you want to this stuff. All this "it goes against the spirit of the game" is pathetic. Current issue in my opinion is the Local itself, this shows how powerful local is, most of the people are whining about the local itself instead of Bacen whether they know it or not.
Rawr Cristina Naqam Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:43:00 - [36] bacon only amplifies the local issue, but I believe neither have a place in EVE so... /signed ...
Zeknichov Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:48:00 - [37] All bacon does is give you an audio alert instead of a visual. How is that an exploit or bad at all? CCP should remove bacon and then implement its features into local. Of course the better solution is just removing local, but I'm not sure I even like that solution because then people will just need to have their scanner open 24/7 hitting the refresh key. I'd rather have local then have to hit refresh on my scanner all the time.
Messerschmitt facility Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:49:00 - [38] /signed. Off with Bacon _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Joshua Foiritain Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.05.23 07:59:00 - [39] Yesh. -----
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:28:00 - [40] -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Arshes Nei Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.05.23 08:36:00 - [41] Edited by: Arshes Nei on 23/05/2008 08:36:36 Imho this opens the door to third party programs being required for eve. I dont want a single third party program being required for eve anymore than i want a couple dozens. This is already used by people running two clients for pvp. One client is a scout and gets placed in a cruicial system hostiles have to cross, and then the player can focus his attention completly on the other client as he gets notified if anything happens on the other client. This is bad. Sitting in space and waiting for hostiles to show up might be boring, yet its a players job and not something a program should do. Mining is boring too and yet we dont have tools helping with that.
Max Teranous Teranous Productions	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:13:00 - [42] Yup. Max
Sariyah HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:15:00 - [43] Yup, these things are ebil and dangerous. Moar fight against macroers etc.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.05.23 09:35:00 - [44] OP fails. CCP has already commented that they don't like BACON and will fix the log server. This thread is worthless. I'll agree I guess, but CCP doesn't care about our opinion on this matter, they are fixing it and that will be the end of that. Originally by: CCP Casqade Please refrain from making assumptions on game mechanics and then presenting them as facts before testing them yourself.
MrRx7 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:40:00 - [45] I'm all for 3rd party apps, but programs that ruin the game play or other users should not be allowed.
Colonel Rykef Animus Exuro	Posted - 2008.05.23 10:48:00 - [46] Edited by: Colonel Rykef on 23/05/2008 10:51:17 signed, in short it gives one player an unfair advantage over the other. its practically on the same level as botting or macro mining But i thought the point was moot anyway as CCP said their going to stop programs using their logs
The PitBoss Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 11:46:00 - [47] signed Thanks, PB Siggys and Banners by: Kalen Vox
Kelhannar Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:13:00 - [48] /signed
Slave 775 Ministry of Punishment Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 12:55:00 - [49] I hate to say it, but i agree with the goon.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.05.23 15:41:00 - [50] Originally by: Slave 775 I hate to say it, but i agree with the goon. It's ok , everyone went there... you'll survive
Solostrom	Posted - 2008.05.23 15:56:00 - [51] /signed Bacon is a metagaming tool... metagaming tools should be reserved for use only by cheating BoB devs!
Kyle Frost Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Kyle Frost on 23/05/2008 16:01:41 Edited by: Kyle Frost on 23/05/2008 16:00:53 Supported. BACON has to go. Also the mechanics which allow it to work should be changed in such way so that no similar mods/addons remain operational. Originally by: Siona Windweaver My point is, beeping a sound when someone comes to local is from stone age when compaired to what you can do with even severly limited Custom UI support (aka SDK). As i said earlier, you don't need actual support from the game itself (aka SDK) to accomplish some of the features i mentioned. People blaming this program when they cant a kill, thats laughable at best. Even unique download numbers arent that high, certainly not high enough to make it a default program for even half of the low to null sec population. Yet people are still whining over it. Personally, this shows how the forum population is closed minded and selfish, the only valid argument i saw was the logserver access point. In reality, you dont even need a logserver connection if you want to this stuff. All this "it goes against the spirit of the game" is pathetic. Current issue in my opinion is the Local itself, this shows how powerful local is, most of the people are whining about the local itself instead of Bacen whether they know it or not. From what i read in your posts it appears that you are the closed minded one so i will try to make this simple. In almost every combat, including EVE PvP, there is a thing called the element of surprise. What BACON does is it brings that element down to 0! Consider the following example: My corp is at war with your corp. You mine ore in some populated 0.5 system, let's say - Nonni. In order to be safe, you constantly have to scroll up and down the local chat list. Let's say you grow tired after a while and you stop doing it. Then i have a chance to surprise you - enter the system and find your ship before you notice that there is a hostile in local ( and i have done so on numerous occasions ). That is simply not possible if you have BACON. Even the most careless miner can hear the audio warning and warp to safety. So what happens then - you dock as soon as i enter system , i go around until i find the station which you are on and i camp it. So you are bored inside the station because you can't mine your ore and i am bored outside of it because i can't blow your ship. Let me guess - that's what you will call a win/win situation , right ? The same example can be true for lowsec and 0.0 areas. BACON "boosts" the natural awareness of the person playing and should not be allowed ! ------ Let the gun do the talking...
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:21:00 - [53] Edited by: Havohej on 23/05/2008 16:20:43 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Papa Ina Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto crap Truth (from a Goon ) More crap...If that can't be automated, I don't know what can. That's the point - NOTHING! NOTHING should be automated. NOTHING should be done for you - not moving your ore from cargo to can, not looting your wrecks, not turning in your missions, not shooting the rats, not activated/deactivating your modules, and DEFINITELY not watching Local to see if you're safe or not! First of hopefully very, very few times I check the box to support a Goon's thread - though it's already been stated by CCP that they're working on changing the way the logserver works to make BACON and similar programs ineffective. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:25:00 - [54] Originally by: Papa Ina I would like it brought to the attention of CCP that BACON and applications like it are detrimental to the game in general. If you want protection from wardecs and low/0.0 space pirates you should use in game means. I'm going to support this issue, but as a point of order can you try to ensure that issues have questions in them please. Ultimately we're going to be voting things onto an agenda which is going to be presented and debated with ccp and we're going to want questions so we can bring back answers. Doesn't have to be complicated, even "hey ccp are you going to fix this and when?" Thanks. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 16:55:00 - [55] Originally by: Havohej That's the point - NOTHING! NOTHING should be automated. NOTHING should be done for you - not moving your ore from cargo to can, not looting your wrecks, not turning in your missions, not shooting the rats, not activated/deactivating your modules, and DEFINITELY not watching Local to see if you're safe or not! First of hopefully very, very few times I check the box to support a Goon's thread - though it's already been stated by CCP that they're working on changing the way the logserver works to make BACON and similar programs ineffective. So autopilot, auto-repeat on modules, auto-reload, stack all, and all the other stuff the game does for us, are all against the spirit of the game? Hell, why doesn't CCP just send you 1400mm shells in the mail so you can reload your own guns? Don't want that being automated, now do we? Maybe have a bunch of people in a room with slide rules working out tracking calculations. The whole reason this game is on computer is to automate the useless crap needed to make a complex game function. I don't want to play a game of record-keeping or inventory management, I want to play a game of space combat(/industry/whatever). Some crap along those lines is necessary, but good game design is to minimize it, not to get all gung-ho about being a Luddite and proud of it. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:06:00 - [56] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So autopilot, auto-repeat on modules, auto-reload, stack all, and all the other stuff the game does for us, are all against the spirit of the game? Hell, why doesn't CCP just send you 1400mm shells in the mail so you can reload your own guns? Don't want that being automated, now do we? Maybe have a bunch of people in a room with slide rules working out tracking calculations. The whole reason this game is on computer is to automate the useless crap needed to make a complex game function. I don't want to play a game of record-keeping or inventory management, I want to play a game of space combat(/industry/whatever). Some crap along those lines is necessary, but good game design is to minimize it, not to get all gung-ho about being a Luddite and proud of it. Ever seen anything else in the sci-fi genre? Autopilot is a given. Hell, a Boeing 777 can be set to autopilot and let go until it's time to land. When your ammo is reloaded into your empty launchers/turrets, do they automatically pick a target and turn themselves on again? No. You can act as dumb as you want, but it doesn't change anything - if you really are too dense to be able to recognize what side of the 'in spirit' you're on, that's your problem. If BACON WERE in the spirit of the game, CCP wouldn't be changing the way logserver works to stop BACON from working, now would they? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:20:00 - [57] Originally by: Havohej Ever seen anything else in the sci-fi genre? Autopilot is a given. Hell, a Boeing 777 can be set to autopilot and let go until it's time to land. When your ammo is reloaded into your empty launchers/turrets, do they automatically pick a target and turn themselves on again? No. You can act as dumb as you want, but it doesn't change anything - if you really are too dense to be able to recognize what side of the 'in spirit' you're on, that's your problem. If BACON WERE in the spirit of the game, CCP wouldn't be changing the way logserver works to stop BACON from working, now would they? Autopilot is a given, which is why it didn't exist for the first couple years of Eve, right? Also, I seem to recall a lot of sci-fi that didn't have it - Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters. Oddly, the games that look most like Eve. And if you'll claim "Even a 777 can autopilot", then why don't you accept "Even a F-14 can read IFF codes"? As for reloading, if NOTHING! should be automated, why does it automate reloading when a gun is empty? Clearly, firing and reloading are two separate actions, why don't we mandate users provide two separate inputs for them? This isn't me acting dumb, this is me mocking your inconsistencies. You claim nothing should be automated, but gleefully justify everything that is. You don't have a clue about the "spirit" of this game, you just have an abiding love the status quo. And let me tell you, buddy, that love is blind as all hell. I can at least understand that attitude from CCP, because they're the ones who have to code any changes and make sure they work, and that it all fits together. But for a player to start licking their boots just because the mud on them is old, dry, and comfortingly familiar is nonsensical. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 17:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Autopilot is a given, which is why it didn't exist for the first couple years of Eve, right? Also, I seem to recall a lot of sci-fi that didn't have it - Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters. Oddly, the games that look most like Eve. And if you'll claim "Even a 777 can autopilot", then why don't you accept "Even a F-14 can read IFF codes"? As for reloading, if NOTHING! should be automated, why does it automate reloading when a gun is empty? Clearly, firing and reloading are two separate actions, why don't we mandate users provide two separate inputs for them? This isn't me acting dumb, this is me mocking your inconsistencies. You claim nothing should be automated, but gleefully justify everything that is. You don't have a clue about the "spirit" of this game, you just have an abiding love the status quo. And let me tell you, buddy, that love is blind as all hell. I can at least understand that attitude from CCP, because they're the ones who have to code any changes and make sure they work, and that it all fits together. But for a player to start licking their boots just because the mud on them is old, dry, and comfortingly familiar is nonsensical. Autopilot was added 'cause it should've been there to begin with. I wasn't talking about other people who made sci-fi games and failed - I was talking about real sci-fi. On Star Trek, the captain says "Helm, lay in a course." Helmsman says "kk mon capitain, course layed in." Captain says "engage" and guess what happens? The ship goes where it was told to go, along the path it was told to go along. A ship's on-board navigation computer should be able to handle things like that. F-14's can read IFF codes, sure, but not until they're actually in range of the other plane to get the IFF signal from that plane's transponder. Here we're talking about knowing that somebody has come into the system with a audio signal so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own ass and watch local. Your IFF analogy doesn't work, if for no other reason than for the fact that we don't have a system-wide radar on our ships that tells us who is in system, where they are, what they're flying and what kind of drones they're using. Reloading an empty weapon is similar to pulling the slide on a 9mm, pulling the trigger which empties the chamber, and then as the slide moves forward again it pulls the next round into place - but it does not automatically fire again until you pull the trigger again. It makes sense that technology Are you really this stupid? If you think I'm a status quo guy, look up my post history. If you think love of this game is blind, why are you here a tall? Why aren't you off playing Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters? Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Lana Tsipar Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2008.05.23 18:15:00 - [59] BACON is fine, it's not changing anything that Local didn't already provide.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.05.23 18:57:00 - [60] yup. been going on alot longer than bacon, and thankfully bacon brought what has been going on with farmers for a long time to the surface.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:00:00 - [61] Edited by: Herschel Yamamoto on 23/05/2008 19:01:05 Originally by: Havohej Autopilot was added 'cause it should've been there to begin with. I wasn't talking about other people who made sci-fi games and failed - I was talking about real sci-fi. On Star Trek, the captain says "Helm, lay in a course." Helmsman says "kk mon capitain, course layed in." Captain says "engage" and guess what happens? The ship goes where it was told to go, along the path it was told to go along. A ship's on-board navigation computer should be able to handle things like that. F-14's can read IFF codes, sure, but not until they're actually in range of the other plane to get the IFF signal from that plane's transponder. Here we're talking about knowing that somebody has come into the system with a audio signal so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own ass and watch local. Your IFF analogy doesn't work, if for no other reason than for the fact that we don't have a system-wide radar on our ships that tells us who is in system, where they are, what they're flying and what kind of drones they're using. Reloading an empty weapon is similar to pulling the slide on a 9mm, pulling the trigger which empties the chamber, and then as the slide moves forward again it pulls the next round into place - but it does not automatically fire again until you pull the trigger again. It makes sense that technology Are you really this stupid? If you think I'm a status quo guy, look up my post history. If you think love of this game is blind, why are you here a tall? Why aren't you off playing Wing Commander, Freespace, all the other similar space shooters? So a helmsman is your idea of automation? That's pretty much how navigational orders were given in the age of triremes. IFF codes work when the person is inside detection range. Detection range is within system(i.e., we can tell they're in system, because they're visible on Local). Also, I looked it up, IFF codes actually date back to WW2. If WW2-level automation allows for it, hyper-advanced future computers can probably handle the same responsibility. As for reloading, reloading in Eve is like putting in a new clip, not like chambering a new round. If you can find me a handgun that will wait until it's empty, take a magazine off your belt, insert it into itself, and be ready to fire with no action from you other than holding down the trigger(i.e., leaving the module on), then I'll take your point that reloading doesn't count as "automated". Barring that, the game has just automated yet another thing for you. As for whether you're a status quo guy, I don't know, but you certainly are on this issue, since there's no other reason I can understand for somebody to defend what is the single weakest part of Eve right now - the UI. I play the game despite the UI, not because of it. If you want to embrace failure, I can't stop you, but I can and will call you on it. Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Lana Tsipar BACON is fine, it's not changing anything that Local didn't already provide. Then why have it, if it is what you say is basically redundant? Why can't you use what is already there? Same functionality, better UI. Seems like a winner to me. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Gorion Wassenar Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.23 19:42:00 - [62] Against 3rd party apps that mine the log server. ----- results may vary
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:02:00 - [63] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Against 3rd party apps that mine the log server. Actually, I'll agree here. The use of the logserver is a kludge forced upon them. If this game was set up properly, the information would be openly available in a way that doesn't force use of the logserver. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:03:00 - [64] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for whether you're a status quo guy, I don't know, but you certainly are on this issue, since there's no other reason I can understand for somebody to defend what is the single weakest part of Eve right now - the UI. I play the game despite the UI, not because of it. If you want to embrace failure, I can't stop you, but I can and will call you on it. This thread isn't about the UI, it's about BACON and similar programs. I didn't bother quoting the rest of your post, as it was all rubbish and mostly off-topic. Fact of the matter is, you and all the other BACON supporters already lost on this issue anyway, so arguing the point with some guy who is either too simple to understand basic concepts or is just really, really wrapped up in semantics is pretty pointless, so... I'll stop now. GG Hydra, your cheat app will be broken soon along with everybody else's more under-the-table projects. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:22:00 - [65] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 23/05/2008 20:25:37 Originally by: Kyle Frost BACON "boosts" the natural awareness of the person playing and should not be allowed ! It doesnt do this by accessing some secret information portal or anything like that. Local already has this knowledge and any sane mind will put local in someplace he/she can view it easily. If we didnt had a local i'd understand, but honestly, making an audio alert is hardly exploiting/game breaking/spirit breaking. All it does is to make easier to get information into your brain, thats the thing UI's are designed to do. To make it easier to access relevent information. WTH is wrong with increased awareness? We are not playing FPS's, Bacon is not a wallhack tool or something, we are playing an MMO and an MMO that has crapload of details at that. From what i can see most people just tend to blame BACON when they cant kill someone. Individual downloads arent even high enough to call Bacon a standard. That kind of people is closed minded. If this was made back when EVE was released and if it was an official CCP UI improvement, no one would ever have complained.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:39:00 - [66] Originally by: Siona Windweaver Local already has this knowledge and any sane mind will put local in someplace he/she can view it easily. If you're easily viewing the member list on Local, you don't need an audio prompt to tell you what you're looking at. The only people who need BACON are people who want to not have to watch Local. In other words, people who want to not have to be responsible for their own safety in-game. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Siona Windweaver	Posted - 2008.05.23 20:58:00 - [67] Edited by: Siona Windweaver on 23/05/2008 20:58:05 Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Siona Windweaver Local already has this knowledge and any sane mind will put local in someplace he/she can view it easily. If you're easily viewing the member list on Local, you don't need an audio prompt to tell you what you're looking at. The only people who need BACON are people who want to not have to watch Local. In other words, people who want to not have to be responsible for their own safety in-game. Humans are more dependant on visuals naturally, making a sound doesnt immideatly provides AFK fest. Even if it did, its their account, they can do whatever they want, it doesnt have a auto CTRL-Q option afaik, or any macro mining abilites. You already have audio support for nearly everything, whats the hassle with this one? I can do AFK missions with my Nighthawk and i only need to check if i ran out of missiles once in a while. If it wasnt for audio support i probably wouldnt have that amount of confidence in my ship. Hell, even skill training uses audio feedback. In the end, it doesnt effect gameplay that much, if a person wanted to be AFK they would have docked on a station already, so you wouldnt find them anyway.
Zeknichov Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.05.23 21:41:00 - [68] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Lana Tsipar BACON is fine, it's not changing anything that Local didn't already provide. Then why have it, if it is what you say is basically redundant? Why can't you use what is already there? Same functionality, better UI. Seems like a winner to me. Exactly. If you don't like bacon you shouldn't like local. Bacon is simply local with a better UI and audio features. If you don't like the audio features because you think the audio will prevent your nanogang from killing some alt-tabbed pilot then Jesus you need your priorities straight. If an audio warning is preventing you from getting kills then there's much deeper problems with the PvP of EVE.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:33:00 - [69] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for whether you're a status quo guy, I don't know, but you certainly are on this issue, since there's no other reason I can understand for somebody to defend what is the single weakest part of Eve right now - the UI. I play the game despite the UI, not because of it. If you want to embrace failure, I can't stop you, but I can and will call you on it. This thread isn't about the UI, it's about BACON and similar programs. I didn't bother quoting the rest of your post, as it was all rubbish and mostly off-topic. Fact of the matter is, you and all the other BACON supporters already lost on this issue anyway, so arguing the point with some guy who is either too simple to understand basic concepts or is just really, really wrapped up in semantics is pretty pointless, so... I'll stop now. GG Hydra, your cheat app will be broken soon along with everybody else's more under-the-table projects. It's about nothing but the UI. Right now, the UI gives you information in a painful and slow way. It works well enough in low-sec, but have you ever tried scanning Jita for war targets? I have, and it's horrifying. BACON was a UI mod - it takes information you already have and presents it to you in a way that makes it actually accessible while still being able to do anything other than scan local. The current UI sucks, and BACON improved it in a way that was within the rules, didn't hurt anybody(except the doctors who would have gotten a bunch of extra carpal tunnel cases to treat), and was universally accessible. It was an unvarnished win for the whole Eve community, and people are lining up to take turns spitting on it. I honestly don't understand where all this hate is coming from. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:39:00 - [70] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto As for whether you're a status quo guy, I don't know, but you certainly are on this issue, since there's no other reason I can understand for somebody to defend what is the single weakest part of Eve right now - the UI. I play the game despite the UI, not because of it. If you want to embrace failure, I can't stop you, but I can and will call you on it. This thread isn't about the UI, it's about BACON and similar programs. I didn't bother quoting the rest of your post, as it was all rubbish and mostly off-topic. Fact of the matter is, you and all the other BACON supporters already lost on this issue anyway, so arguing the point with some guy who is either too simple to understand basic concepts or is just really, really wrapped up in semantics is pretty pointless, so... I'll stop now. GG Hydra, your cheat app will be broken soon along with everybody else's more under-the-table projects. It's about nothing but the UI. Right now, the UI gives you information in a painful and slow way. It works well enough in low-sec, but have you ever tried scanning Jita for war targets? I have, and it's horrifying. BACON was a UI mod - it takes information you already have and presents it to you in a way that makes it actually accessible while still being able to do anything other than scan local. The current UI sucks, and BACON improved it in a way that was within the rules, didn't hurt anybody(except the doctors who would have gotten a bunch of extra carpal tunnel cases to treat), and was universally accessible. It was an unvarnished win for the whole Eve community, and people are lining up to take turns spitting on it. I honestly don't understand where all this hate is coming from. A lot of this "hate" as you call it comes from the same response you would get about Ebay, Isk Selling, Macro and so on. It comes from the same view as cheating and going against the spirit of the game.
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:54:00 - [71] Originally by: Farrqua Originally by: Lana Tsipar BACON is fine, it's not changing anything that Local didn't already provide. Then why have it, if it is what you say is basically redundant? Why can't you use what is already there? 'cos keeping a Local window over half your screen is ugly? I don't see it much different than adding hostiles to your addybook to track login/logoff. Is there anyone who has never done this even once? Is there any rational RP or ingame explanation for it? Not really. The RL reason of the annoyance of wasting your time scanning for someone who logged off an hour ago is why people do that, frex. The pure ick of window-covered screen is why i would try BACON. I haven't yet, but i think i should - if it strikes me as overpowered, i'd support this topic. Zleip > very, and this is more or less a post of humor that seriousness =)
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.23 22:54:00 - [72] Originally by: Farrqua A lot of this "hate" as you call it comes from the same response you would get about Ebay, Isk Selling, Macro and so on. It comes from the same view as cheating and going against the spirit of the game. This is a game where buying and selling game currency with real money is legal, with the sole caveat being that you can't sell more than the price of your subscriptions. As such, moral opposition to isk buying/selling(be it on eBay or anywhere else) is treading on pretty precarious ground. I hate the spammers, of course, but that's just because I hate spamming as a rule. Macroing I will disagree with, because it devalues the profits of actual play(and because it puts me at a severe competitive disadvantage, of course), and my whole point here is that the game should promote players playing with it as much as possible instead of interfering. But I really don't see how BACON falls into that category - it doesn't play the game for you, and CCP has specifically said that it's not cheating. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Taedrin Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.05.23 23:15:00 - [73] /signed BACON makes it so a player doesn't actually have to be aware of what's happening around him. Though it is nice, it encourages survival of lazy, inept and/or inattentive players. As a side note, local should also be heavily looked into.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2008.05.23 23:53:00 - [74] CCP already made a commitment to prevent exploitation of the log server at some future date. It's not a bad idea to remind them of this though. Bandures > tommy you like a cowboy harry )
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:16:00 - [75] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto It's about nothing but the UI. Title of the thread: [ISSUE] BACON and basic logserver exploitation I stopped reading right there and no longer have the time to wade through anymore nonsense posts from you. CCP have promised to break BACON and all its siblings. That's pretty much all, tbh. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.24 03:59:00 - [76] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto It's about nothing but the UI. Title of the thread: [ISSUE] BACON and basic logserver exploitation I stopped reading right there and no longer have the time to wade through anymore nonsense posts from you. CCP have promised to break BACON and all its siblings. That's pretty much all, tbh. Yes, and they're wrong to do so - they should be encouraging people like Gunfleet, not destroying their work. That's pretty much all, tbh. ------------------ Fix the forums!
White Ronin	Posted - 2008.05.24 15:52:00 - [77] not supported. It wasnt a problem till everyone got the same tools that ccp knew the large corps had been using for a while. wasnt a problem them so it aint a problem now.
Master Akira Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.24 16:10:00 - [78] /signed, and hating that you have to post to support something -.-
Heinkel facility	Posted - 2008.05.24 23:38:00 - [79] OFF WITH BACON! /signed
Illrae Pyou	Posted - 2008.05.25 00:18:00 - [80] Originally by: Heinkel facility OFF WITH BACON! /signed OFF WITH BACON Implement it to the UI.
Judas Jones Black Company	Posted - 2008.05.25 00:34:00 - [81] It needs dealing with but I also think local (similar but not as bad) should be like constelation in .4 and below, you only appear if you speak so local can only track the number of pod signals in system, not whom they belong to.
Fadu Varon Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.05.25 03:12:00 - [82] Signed. This is the only Bacon I don't like.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 04:31:00 - [83] /not signed. First of all, Gunfleet cannot believe the threadnaught that came out of BACON. I won't go into any of that again, except to say that CCP has appreciated our cooperation, transparency, and has done us the service of not making any defining statement on the issue - except to mention that they know other large groups of people are using similar tools - and that all tools like BACON will be 'broken' in the future. For Gunfleet, evening the playing field by breaking all the tools relying on the log server is a win. Second of all, as the huge threadnaught surrounding BACON testifies, CCP's statements on this issue have been, I believe, deliberately ambiguous. There has been enough ambiguity to fuel 50+ pages of discussion here, across countless threads. That doesn't even count Scrapheap. Ultimately, I believe this will be sorted when CCP patches the log server. Should I mention again that Gunfleet Logistics considers that a win for EVE? It returns everyone to a level playing field. Third, regarding BACON enabling for-profit cheating... Give me a break. Anyone who has subscribed to social media knows about the recent codingthewheel series on making a poker bot. Anyone who is more than a passing programmer knows about tools built into Windows (or any OS) or available for download to enable them to spy on running processes and windows. Almost all of them are officially supported by the OS manufacturer and have substantial, real-world, every-day-development usage. Those sorts of tools are what ISK farmers and macrominers are using. Quotes like the below just reveal the technical ignorance of the poster: Originally by: Sakura Nihil BACON works off the logserver, just as it appears the macroer's programs do. To be completely clear, Gunfleet's goat in developing BACON was not to cheat the system in any way. We told CCP what we were doing, got their approval to release, and released. Everything after that is history. But there is simply too much FUD out there, quite a bit by people that possess similar clandestine tools, for there to be a real debate on the issue. (See my next post...) All that being said, at the end of the day, I think that CCP should have provided this kind of auditory feedback built-in to the game, or provided a better mechanic for local. Either of those solutions are a win for EVE as a whole, and honestly, I am glad that the brief existence of BACON sparked enough controversy to level the playing field for everyone, and get the community interested in some broken mechanics.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 04:34:00 - [84] If there were a real, fair debate on the issue, it'd probably start with answering some of the questions I pose in the thought experiment below... Quoted from another thread, that was locked in hysterics soon after.... Originally by: "Reuser" 1. Given: Instant communication is possible in the EVE universe. Support: You can talk to your mates in Syndicate when you're in Delve, instantly. Evemail, Voice comms, etc. See: http://www.eve-online.com/background/communication/ 2. Given: The EVE interface gives feedback on events via sound. Support: Warp scram sounds, jump gate sounds, uncloaking sounds, enemy guns firing, etc. For the technical, there is no way that you can hear the enemy guns in space. That is a synthesized sound by Aura/your crew/something. 3. Given: EVE technology is FAR, FAR in advance of our current Terran technology. By several orders of magnitude, at least. Support: Self evident. 4. Given: EVE stargates are ancient, pre-Jovian technology reproduced by the four races. Support: http://www.eve-online.com/background/jump/jump_02.asp 5. Given: EVE's computer science is at least as advanced as our own. Support: Working technology based on quantum computing, region wide markets, etc. 6. Given: Local channel exists. There is an event when a new starship joins local. Support: Self evident. 7. Given: Ships have an advanced on board computer, Aura. Source: EVE tutorial. I think we can all agree that these are the facts about the EVE universe we inhabit. Given these facts, one cannot refute that the potential exists, within the EVE universe to duplicate BACON. Given the military competition between the four races, and the consequences of failing to develop a Threat Warning System, it is extremely, extremely improbable that the TWS did NOT evolve in EVE. Discuss.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.25 04:43:00 - [85] Ban Bacon. It's using loopholes to get around EULA, but the fact remains is that it's detrimental to gameplay. The EULA and other agreements states that you cannot use 3rd party applications that change the way the game is normally played. Normally, you'd have to be active and paying attention to local to avoid being ganked. Bacon changes that in the sense that people can be semi-afk and not pay attention. This changes gameplay. And lets not dance around the subject here. Bacon is just one public application that exploits this flow. And how many other applications are there, that use the same methods as Bacon does, but instead of simply playing a warning sound, they automatically warp the player ship off to safespot? Macros exist for EvE. This is not a secret, and anyone trying to deny this is naive. Macroers can be caught, because their behavior is repetive and devoid of human judgment. This only happens because they run the macro non-stop. With Bacon, or programs like Bacon, a macro can be built that would warp you to SS when hostiles enter local. And noone would be able to prove it, macro is run only seldomly. This exploit, not just Bacon, but the method that Bacon uses, needs to be closed ASAP. People's defense of Bacon is that "it uses information already available to the user's computer". Well, take any FPS game for example. Your computer knows perfectly well were all the enemies are, behind walls, etc. But that information is not displayed to the user. And when users write hacks and cheats to reveal that information with wall-hacks, map-hacks, etc, they are cheaters, deemed as so, and banned from servers. Same here. Just because the information is available to your computer, doesn't mean it should be available to the user playing the game. Bacon is a hack in a true meaning of the word == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 04:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Havohej The only people who need BACON are people who want to not have to watch Local. In other words, people who want to not have to be responsible for their own safety in-game. Really? Really. I mean honestly? I run 2, 24" monitors, with 2, 1680x1050 EVE clients up, windowed. I participate in roughly 7 mission critical channels on each of those toons, including local, but not including fleet. If I am logged in, I am in fleet, but that is a separate window. Local is always in it's own window. With that, I have to tell you, it's easy to get killed when you are giving intel in 2 different intel channels, coordinating a fleet, participating in higher level things in a command channel, and trying to kill in combat at the same time. In any SANE game, (see my thought experiment above), you would have an auditory alert for the tactically critical local data. I submit, you aren't doing ENOUGH with your game, so you don't understand the need for a tool like BACON. Perhaps when you step up your game, you'll understand.
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 04:55:00 - [87] Originally by: hydraSlav Bacon is a hack in a true meaning of the word First off, good fights. Second off, you really don't understand the meaning of the word hack, in my opinion. In the pejorative (bad) use of the word hack, a "hacker" would not seek the permission of the game company he is "hacking". Nor would said game company allow the "hacker" to release. Nor would said "hacker" remove features on request of said game company.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 05:24:00 - [88] Originally by: hydraSlav (snip)People's defense of Bacon is that "it uses information already available to the user's computer". Well, take any FPS game for example. Your computer knows perfectly well were all the enemies are, behind walls, etc. But that information is not displayed to the user. And when users write hacks and cheats to reveal that information with wall-hacks, map-hacks, etc, they are cheaters, deemed as so, and banned from servers. Same here. Just because the information is available to your computer, doesn't mean it should be available to the user playing the game. Bacon is a hack in a true meaning of the word I can't speak for mistakes potentially made in the arguments of others(since you're right, that'd be a terrible justification), but my defence has always been that it's information available to the user, not to the user's computer. If it gave you bookmarks to all of them, for example, I'd be yelling for its ban right beside you. But the presence of hostiles in local is not secret - it's right in the player's face. It's hardly a hack to move it from a visual cue to an auditory one. ------------------ Fix the forums!
borodimer Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 05:46:00 - [89] Remember, blame Reuser!
Wristblade Sensus Numinis Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:28:00 - [90] not signed. Though I don't use BACON very often it's quite a helpful tool. I don't see in which points it violates the EULA neither does CCP. So stop whining. Don't forget: Reuser is the one to blame...
Gorion Wassenar Stimulus	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:29:00 - [91] Originally by: Reuser Really? Really. I mean honestly? I run 2, 24" monitors, with 2, 1680x1050 EVE clients up, windowed. I participate in roughly 7 mission critical channels on each of those toons, including local, but not including fleet. If I am logged in, I am in fleet, but that is a separate window. Local is always in it's own window. With that, I have to tell you, it's easy to get killed when you are giving intel in 2 different intel channels, coordinating a fleet, participating in higher level things in a command channel, and trying to kill in combat at the same time. In any SANE game, (see my thought experiment above), you would have an auditory alert for the tactically critical local data. I submit, you aren't doing ENOUGH with your game, so you don't understand the need for a tool like BACON. Perhaps when you step up your game, you'll understand. Running multiple clients is at your own risk. There are consequences to dividing your attention and benefits to being able to run multiple tasks and skills. Risk vs. reward. ----- results may vary
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar Running multiple clients is at your own risk. I'm sorry, I think you missed my point. I chose hyperbole as a method, and that does not always translate well to text.
Slickdrac JET FORCE Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.05.25 06:58:00 - [93] I don't use BACON, and I probably never will, but if others want to use it, it's fine with me. I use EVEmon, it gives me an advantage when I'm doing my skills, I use EFT, it somewhat gives me an advantage when figuring out ship setups. Some people use BACON, it gives them an advantage when they are being a bit absent minded. I suck at forums
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:00:00 - [94] Many great arguements and counter-arguemnets in this thread. Interesting debate, but.... /not signed I keep local open in high sec, low sec, and 0.0. I scan it in all those places during peacetime and wartime. I visually get my notification of enemies and war targets. If others get a sound notification, bully for them. That doesn't affect me or my gameplay in the slightest. I'm just considering BACON here. If someone has another actual program mining the log server for game destroying data, I might vote differently in that thread.
Guns nButter The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:28:00 - [95] not supported. improve local before you remove bacon. i'll let you read the rest of the thread to figure out where my arguement comes from.
Rhum Kach Pleasure and Pain	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:46:00 - [96] /Disagree Change Local, don't change Bacon !
Ren Tales Crimson Flag	Posted - 2008.05.25 09:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Papa Ina Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto automate the boring crap The boring crap is coming under attack? If BACON fought the PvP for you, I'd agree. Scanning local is boring, and it's exactly the sort of thing that led humans to invent automation in the first place. It's a simple algorithm that involves scanning large amounts of data and doing a list comparison - this is the sort of thing computers in the 1950s were built for. And it's non-interactive, meaning that there's no macroing concerns. If that can't be automated, I don't know what can. What he said =) ---- Want to learn how to yar? Want to teach young pirates? Crimson Flag is Recruiting
Mael Duakal Minds Of Space Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:19:00 - [98] /not signed
Loth'nwenar shadow and flame Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:23:00 - [99] Far from signed.
Brachis Eve Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.05.25 11:35:00 - [100] Hrm. This is an interesting debate, and happens to be one which has been an issue of contention in gaming communities for ages. The problem with third party applications that change the way a player interacts with the game (In this case, making it easier and less tedious) is that the changes to the interface or to the intel being provided is not necessarily being given equally to all players. Yes, the program is available to everyone, just like less 'aggressive' programs such as EVE Fitting Tool and the ever-popular EVEMon, but the problem is that it is not automatically provided to the player. The player must be made aware that the program exists in order to download it, implement it, learn it, and make use of it. What this does is create a one-sided metagame in which EVERYONE who wants to operate in a competitive venue must have and utilize every third party application affecting the terms of engagement that any of his enemies could be using, or else he is at a disadvantage (This could be a huge disadvantage). The other argument is that the use of these third party applications is clearly not an intended design aspect of the game by CCP. If they were, CCP would include them in the game, or something similar. EVE Voice is an excellent example of this. Any player within EVE can make use of voice chat without having to use a third party program. It makes that kind of advantage available to EVERY player, which means that fleets, alliances, and corporations that use Teamspeak or Ventrillo aren't literally on a metagame level unattainable by an "out-of-the-box" EVE player. In my opinion, ANY Third-party program which directly interacts with EVE to give a player a real-time combat or intel advantage should be, without a doubt, against the rules. If the tool is truly of benefit, and improves the actual quality of EVE's metagame overall (Which in my opinion, this does not, as it discourages active intelligence gathering), then CCP should implement a variation of the tool directly into EVE's interface... possibly by working together with the designers of the third party app and implementing it as a first-party app that everyone can enjoy. It is for these reasons that I support this topic. Sorry for the essay "I do this with but one small ship and I am called a terrorist... you do it with an entire fleet and are called an Emperor."
Mystic Chaos Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 13:59:00 - [101] not signed blame reuser Mystic Chaos Tides of Silence
Spoony Brook Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:56:00 - [102] signed ---------------
Temitten	Posted - 2008.05.25 15:58:00 - [103] yes
SomeHardLovin Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 16:02:00 - [104] There is nothing wrong with BACON.. it just adds a feature to the game that really should be there anyhow. Seriously.. watching LOCAL for intel? That seems pretty lame. All BACON does for me is that is says "Alert! Red. X Alliance" when someone enters the system I am in. It doesn't give me any kind of tactical advantage I didn't already have. I mostly just use it to identify what alliance has entered the space with me and it saves me having to open their character profile. --- * The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.25 18:33:00 - [105] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: hydraSlav (snip)People's defense of Bacon is that "it uses information already available to the user's computer". Well, take any FPS game for example. Your computer knows perfectly well were all the enemies are, behind walls, etc. But that information is not displayed to the user. And when users write hacks and cheats to reveal that information with wall-hacks, map-hacks, etc, they are cheaters, deemed as so, and banned from servers. Same here. Just because the information is available to your computer, doesn't mean it should be available to the user playing the game. Bacon is a hack in a true meaning of the word I can't speak for mistakes potentially made in the arguments of others(since you're right, that'd be a terrible justification), but my defence has always been that it's information available to the user, not to the user's computer. If it gave you bookmarks to all of them, for example, I'd be yelling for its ban right beside you. But the presence of hostiles in local is not secret - it's right in the player's face. It's hardly a hack to move it from a visual cue to an auditory one. Bacon is a harmless tip of the iceberg. Like i said, the same method that's used by Bacon is used by other automatic applications that would automatically warp you off the SS the moment an enemy enters local. Anyone claiming otherwise (and i am not saying you do) is naive. We should in fact thank Bacon for bringing this up into such public spotlight. This exploit with the log server needs to be shut down. It was never meant to be used that way (as said so by the devs), and they are looking for ways to rectify the problem. The bottom line is: Bacon, or any other similar application, changes the way you would normally play, and that is against the EULA == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood DEFI4NT	Posted - 2008.05.25 19:15:00 - [106] Originally by: Reuser Originally by: Havohej The only people who need BACON are people who want to not have to watch Local. In other words, people who want to not have to be responsible for their own safety in-game. Really? Really. I mean honestly? I run 2, 24" monitors, with 2, 1680x1050 EVE clients up, windowed. I participate in roughly 7 mission critical channels on each of those toons, including local, but not including fleet. If I am logged in, I am in fleet, but that is a separate window. Local is always in it's own window. With that, I have to tell you, it's easy to get killed when you are giving intel in 2 different intel channels, coordinating a fleet, participating in higher level things in a command channel, and trying to kill in combat at the same time. In any SANE game, (see my thought experiment above), you would have an auditory alert for the tactically critical local data. I submit, you aren't doing ENOUGH with your game, so you don't understand the need for a tool like BACON. Perhaps when you step up your game, you'll understand. That's your problem. I've got 3 intel channels, corp, alliance, my corp's officer channel, the overall alliance CEO/Director channel, a regional "General" chat for communication of the various separate alliances co-existing in the region we operate in without polluting the respective Intel channels shared between us, I dual box EVE on a SINGLE monitor, one of my accts active in the Omist region, the other being anywhere from Omist to Molden Heath to Lonetrek, sometimes on one toon hauling valuable goods (and needing to watch out for suicide ganks - note, a 3rd client must be opened to scout lowsec jumps if no corpmates are around at the time to do it for me), and sometimes on another toon that might be trying to scam people, or yet another that might be mining, all while my main acct (the one I'm posting with now) is either ratting in Omist or fleeting up for defense in Omist or scouting for a defense gang in Omist, or just dodging a 12-man nano+command ship gang and assessing whether people should just dock and let 'em pass or if we have the right people online and in the area to come out and have a good fight, etc., etc., etc... and I still watch Local, often being the first to report new hostiles on two of the three intel channels... and none of my people use BACON. Mind you, we don't have KIA or Daisho dropping titans on us (maybe we just haven't 'stepped our game up' enough for people to Doomsday us), but that's your problem, too. Originally by: techzer0 I'm invincible until proven wrong
Kyle Frost Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.25 21:42:00 - [107] Siona Windweaver - OK , now I suspect that you are doing that on purpose , just to irritate me. ItÆs either that orà allright , allright û I will try to keep it civil. ôIt doesnt effect you or any pirate looking for easy targetsö . ThatÆs what I am trying to tell you - with BACON in play, there are no EASY targets ( and maybe even NO TARGETS at ALL ) . Everybody knows if a hostile enters system and I bet it can give you the exact number of hostiles jumping in. It doesnÆt matter if the user has local open , if he is busy, if he is careless or overconfident û once he hears the sound ( which can be customized , so you can make it sound like a **in air attack alarm ! ) he has 100% chance to avoid the fight. A big amount of the pirateÆs targets are people who try to avoid a fight û merchants, couriers , mission runners, explorers and others. So this little, innocent BACON can effectively put a stop to roaming piracy. The only options for pirates will be camping stations and gates. Same is true for 0.0 roaming gangs or empire wars. There is no way you could catch a ratter in a belt or bust an enemy mining op. So if BACON is allowed, CCP might as well change the combat system in EVE and make it entirely flag based. If you want to fight û you flag yourself for PvP. Otherwise nobody can touch you. And you are saying that it doesnÆt effect me? Now there are people saying that they travel with local open all the time, check info channels etc. , so there is nothing wrong with BACON. Well, just because you do it , it doesnÆt mean that everybody does the same! All kinds of people play EVE , itÆs one of the charms of massive online games. Some players are more aware than others , some are faster others are slower. ItÆs pretty hard to constantly check local when there are over 100 people in system. And no , I donÆt think thatÆs a flaw in the interface - those are the ôrisksö of high sec space, thatÆs the way it should be. You canÆt see every single person who passes through a busy train station. ôBut that information is already there , bla , bla, blaàö û well damn it , the ship types and their fittings are there as well . You want info on that too ?! I am gonna say this one more time, especially for you, as you obviously have trouble understanding it. It is not only about people being AFK in space ( although a loud audio warning can save you if you are in the next room having lunch, while your ship is mining in a belt ). You donÆt know what those players are doing û they might be checking prices on the market, or reading EVE news, or watching a movie with EVE minimized û it doesnÆt matter ! You still have a chance , big or small , to catch them. BACON eliminates that chance ( as I already wrote in my previous post ). As soon as they hear the sound ( or get the warning msg, whatever it is that BACON ** does ) they ditch whatever they are doing and check the situation in local. So the best thing you can hope for is see them warp out as soon as you are in the belt. Now if you canÆt get that, I am giving up on youà ------ Let the gun do the talking...
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.25 22:13:00 - [108] Originally by: hydraSlav Bacon is a harmless tip of the iceberg. Like i said, the same method that's used by Bacon is used by other automatic applications that would automatically warp you off the SS the moment an enemy enters local. Anyone claiming otherwise (and i am not saying you do) is naive. We should in fact thank Bacon for bringing this up into such public spotlight. This exploit with the log server needs to be shut down. It was never meant to be used that way (as said so by the devs), and they are looking for ways to rectify the problem. The bottom line is: Bacon, or any other similar application, changes the way you would normally play, and that is against the EULA I'm not saying that the log server loophole is a good one - I've said several times that I don't like the means of implementation, and that I'd much prefer Eve had information for modders built into the client, rather than forcing them to work their way around it with a poor UI, no mod support, and a restrictive EULA. The log server can and will get exploited and used for macro-only play as it's set up now. But just because the log server can be a problem doesn't mean that the BACON program is a "cheat" or a "hack" in any way. I defend this particular program, and others similar to it, not the entire set of possible game utilities. Some are ban-worthy, this one isn't. ------------------ Fix the forums!
xOm3gAx Stain of Mind	Posted - 2008.05.25 22:23:00 - [109] Signed Originally by: CCP Abraxas Her boyfriend's way hot, too; tall and tanned. And I say this as a very hetero male who doesn't ever dream of the man on cold, dark nights.
Darriele	Posted - 2008.05.26 09:46:00 - [110] Edited by: Darriele on 26/05/2008 10:00:06 Let me give you a serious question. Does CCP consider that all of us are deafs ? Why there isnt an early warning audio feedback mechanism implemented into the game? A quick analogy -> submarine echo-location system BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, BEEP ,BEEP, BEEP and an nicee spot on the sonar. (it may be a forced analogy but at least it serves its purpose) Now i hope that you got the idea. Modern warfare without knowing the whereabouts of your enemy when they enter in the same system where you are, give me a break. At least a visual feedback (and an early warning system) is provided by "local window", is it hard to add the audio feedback component to it? And it seems that the races from EVE (minmatars ,ammars, jovians, gallente, caldari) are in CCP design quite idiots compared to our modern time ppl, what the hell jump bridges, ftl travel and no passive system wide scanner that beeps?. And not to forget they are DEAF.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:23:00 - [111] Yes Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ameliorate	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:31:00 - [112] A program should not be allowed to alert the player to what is happening in the game, unless it has worked it out from its own calculations and/or the API data (such as EVEMon). ---- Train skills, check mail and pay bills from your mobile: Support my CSM issue
d'hofren	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:41:00 - [113] Edited by: d''hofren on 26/05/2008 10:44:37 Edited by: d''hofren on 26/05/2008 10:42:01 I was absolutely disgusted on resubbing and seeing this bacon app mentioned on the forums. 1) The client should provide a uniform playing field for all players. Allowing client customization in a group vs group game encourages apps which are tied to specific groups of players and degenerates the entire game to a battle of coders. 2) Local that requires monitoring and encourages player client interaction, We coped for 5 odd years with this. Bacon reduces this interaction and upsets the risk / reward balance that should be present in 0.0 mining. With potentially disasterous effects for the economy.... 3) Bacon, Unlike EFT and evemon, is an automation of an ingame process. As such it should violate the eula. (automation of the local checking process).
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:52:00 - [114] Originally by: Reuser Really? Really. I mean honestly? I run 2, 24" monitors, with 2, 1680x1050 EVE clients up, windowed. I participate in roughly 7 mission critical channels on each of those toons, including local, but not including fleet. If I am logged in, I am in fleet, but that is a separate window. Local is always in it's own window. With that, I have to tell you, it's easy to get killed when you are giving intel in 2 different intel channels, coordinating a fleet, participating in higher level things in a command channel, and trying to kill in combat at the same time. In any SANE game, (see my thought experiment above), you would have an auditory alert for the tactically critical local data. I submit, you aren't doing ENOUGH with your game, so you don't understand the need for a tool like BACON. Perhaps when you step up your game, you'll understand. Thats your problem. Its already too hard to surprise anyone in the game, its just wrong to support tools that let you pay even less attention to whats going on around you. A tool that supports afk gameplay, botting and automation of intel. Hopefully ccp will come with a fix that kills the logserver as a source of intel.
Zoon Muidac eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.05.26 10:59:00 - [115] Edited by: Zoon Muidac on 26/05/2008 11:00:16 /signed
Lt Angus Wicked Crew	Posted - 2008.05.26 11:20:00 - [116] 1st bacon next decal, lets stop it before that please Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.26 12:40:00 - [117] LogServer files should be encrypted.
Shanur Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.05.26 13:46:00 - [118] Definetely a dodgy tactic bordering on using intended game mechanics in an unintended way the same way logoffski does. /signed. Let's see what CCP has to say about this.
Richardson AlliedTerr shadow and flame Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.26 20:50:00 - [119] Not signed
Theramin Dogon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.26 22:35:00 - [120] Edited by: Theramin Dogon on 26/05/2008 22:36:13 /signed and while were at it how about geting rid of programs liek evemon that was created by GOONS (its TRUE chek da credits) to HACK eve server and give GOONS to m uch control over the game and there is even a version of evemon that lets u change siklls WITHOUT loging in FIX THIS CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :synpa:
Lanhaa Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.27 00:43:00 - [121] Edited by: Lanhaa on 27/05/2008 00:45:50 /Not signed Pretty sure 3/4 of ppl criticizing Bacon just don't even know what they are talking about (ie, try it before whining). Bacon just don't remove the need to monitor local.
Kerrigan Brood Sparta Holdings Inc	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:15:00 - [122] Ban Bacon. Simple. /signed
tropic89	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:15:00 - [123] here here
Greenreaper	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:15:00 - [124] Signed.
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:15:00 - [125] Bacon is detrimental to the game, and it uses log server information in ways that it was never intended. I support this topic. Now Recruiting. Join "Neogen" channel for details
Jolinar Malkshur Divine Retribution Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.05.27 03:17:00 - [126] <<signed>> null "Some one ever tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back" - Malcolm Reynolds
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.27 04:29:00 - [127] here, here = hear, hear ?
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 10:22:00 - [128] Look at all dem Hydra with the "not signed". Whether or not ccp officially sanctioned the app or not is not of any importance, the CSM is here to represent the players not CCP. Some players don't like it, and want the issue clarified at least. As you should be more than aware (apparently you are not) action against this does not mean they will simply turn it off (no matter how much I might want that), they may well decide that (like local standings) they want to include it in the client. Either way this motion is simply to get the opinions of those that want it looked at to those that should here them. There is a simple reason that CCP did not include a "thumbs down" option. They don't want other people silencing other peoples opinions. In conclusion you are all stupid.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.05.27 10:42:00 - [129] Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm going to support this issue, but as a point of order can you try to ensure that issues have questions in them please. Ultimately we're going to be voting things onto an agenda which is going to be presented and debated with ccp and we're going to want questions so we can bring back answers. Doesn't have to be complicated, even "hey ccp are you going to fix this and when?" Thanks. Sorry for my late response, while I agree that it would be easier to manage if the issue was question based I feel that there are a multitude of questions involved here and I was hoping that the reasoned debate in this thread would highlight the most pertinent of them. From my side I am mostly worried about escalation, as some have said in the thread there are worries that in order to remain competitive you'll have to use specific 3rd party out of game tools, much like how World of Warcraft turned out. I'm a big supporter of a level playing field and I really just want to make sure that CCP understands how important this issue is to some people. Also, LOOK HYDRA CSM SUPPORT WHERE'D ALL YOUR "NOT SIGNED" GET YOU NOW. BOOYA
Jean Reneaux	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:54:00 - [130] /not signed As long as one can't reorder local by threat level there is no reason or justification to outlaw BACON. - J
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:06:00 - [131] Originally by: Jean Reneaux /not signed As long as one can't reorder local by threat level there is no reason or justification to outlaw BACON. - J Uh I think you have to determine the threat level your self, by actually paying attention to who is coming or going. Why log in if you are not going to do anything but AFK mine or rat. Hey look if you want to stay safe pay attention. If you don't want to put the effort in, then you accept the risk.
Spork Thalamus	Posted - 2008.05.28 15:36:00 - [132] Easy call. Get rid of it.
Eiire The Nietzian Way Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.28 16:06:00 - [133] /not signed I don't see anything about it being against the spirit of the game. I thought this was already solved??
Reuser Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:02:00 - [134] ITT Goons asking to ban a tool category they themselves defined: THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST!!!!! In before "Beetracker was fake!"
Eronysis Gunfleet Logistics Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.28 18:09:00 - [135] Hahaha you hypocrites. Goons use more secondary application tools than anyone. So what you are saying is you want a monopoly and don't want your potential victims to use similar tools, hasn't this all been said before?
Thorradin State War Academy	Posted - 2008.05.29 03:07:00 - [136] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto /not signed. BACON is exactly the kind of program that should be encouraged by CCP - automate the boring crap, leave the player to actually play the game. If they're going to let the UI suck by default, at least let us fix it. Originally by: zykerx what does that program do ? It checks local for hostiles, and plays a sound if any come in. Basically, it's an automated scanner for local. The log server is how it's implemented technically, since the EULA bans programs that check game data directly. If you find it boring to keep an eye out for hostiles then you need to lose a few ships, or go to secure space. This thread is kinda moot though, CCP has already stated that the logserver is getting changed, and that they don't like these kinda of programs, nor do they approve of them.
Khan Rodak Manu Dei Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.05.31 13:33:00 - [137] signed New Seminarium open
Beaverid Tesu	Posted - 2008.05.31 14:23:00 - [138] Edited by: Beaverid Tesu on 31/05/2008 14:24:29 Changing the UI is against the EULA. Creating an alternate UI is just the same as changing the old one. BACON is bad, m'kay? /me is all for getting rid of any and all third party programs. If CCP doesn't make it it shouldn't be allowed.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.05.31 15:50:00 - [139] Originally by: Beaverid Tesu Edited by: Beaverid Tesu on 31/05/2008 14:24:29 Changing the UI is against the EULA. Creating an alternate UI is just the same as changing the old one. BACON is bad, m'kay? /me is all for getting rid of any and all third party programs. If CCP doesn't make it it shouldn't be allowed. Changing the UI is not against the EULA, it's certain technical means to do so that are. BACON used none of those means. That said, Eve has an astoundingly stupid EULA on this point - it's like they're trying to make sure we have a crappy UI. Proper moddability would solve about 40% of the requests on this forum in one fell swoop. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Elassi Korr	Posted - 2008.06.01 05:42:00 - [140] Edited by: Elassi Korr on 01/06/2008 05:42:39 Originally by: Havohej Autopilot was added 'cause it should've been there to begin with. I wasn't talking about other people who made sci-fi games and failed - I was talking about real sci-fi. On Star Trek, the captain says "Helm, lay in a course." Helmsman says "kk mon capitain, course layed in." Captain says "engage" and guess what happens? The ship goes where it was told to go, along the path it was told to go along. A ship's on-board navigation computer should be able to handle things like that. F-14's can read IFF codes, sure, but not until they're actually in range of the other plane to get the IFF signal from that plane's transponder. Here we're talking about knowing that somebody has come into the system with a audio signal so that we don't have to take responsibility for our own ass and watch local. Your IFF analogy doesn't work, if for no other reason than for the fact that we don't have a system-wide radar on our ships that tells us who is in system, where they are, what they're flying and what kind of drones they're using. Reloading an empty weapon is similar to pulling the slide on a 9mm, pulling the trigger which empties the chamber, and then as the slide moves forward again it pulls the next round into place - but it does not automatically fire again until you pull the trigger again. It makes sense that technology Are you really this stupid? Actually, reloading a weapon is more like ejecting the empty clip, put in a new one, then arm the weapon. What you are saying is shooting round after round from the same clip. And we're talking big clips here... About the IFF codes / radar... BSG has Draydus, and afaik it's system-wide... or close to it; unlike local / bacon, it gives intel about the size and type of the ship, it's exact location, heading and speed. So if CCP removes local they should put something like draydus instead. EDIT: NOT signed. I like bacon. yumm..
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.01 06:39:00 - [141] Originally by: Elassi Korr Actually, reloading a weapon is more like ejecting the empty clip, put in a new one, then arm the weapon. What you are saying is shooting round after round from the same clip. And we're talking big clips here... About the IFF codes / radar... BSG has Draydus, and afaik it's system-wide... or close to it; unlike local / bacon, it gives intel about the size and type of the ship, it's exact location, heading and speed. So if CCP removes local they should put something like draydus instead. EDIT: NOT signed. I like bacon. yumm.. Ok, from what I have read this program is for a player that are AFK or some one who happens to be reading the forums or whatever. So from what it understand, Players are fighting for BACCON and other programs like it, so players that are to bored to pay attention to whats happening in game can protect there ships? Side note: Oh and about the reloading the weapon/clip thing. Yea if you are target practicing you could fire until your slide or bolt is locked back in a position to expose the chamber, drop the clip, insert new clip, release the slide (which cambers the round) and then fire. If you are in a combat, you do not wait until the slide locks back. You should know if trained well, when to drop the clip, pop in a fresh clip in while you have a round still in the chamber. And then back to work.
CaldariCitizen2023	Posted - 2008.06.01 09:22:00 - [142] This isn't cheating, it's a UI 'enhancement'
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2008.06.01 15:33:00 - [143] Save the pigs! No more Bacon!
Shnergin	Posted - 2008.06.01 22:57:00 - [144] Never used BACON, never want to. I think CCP is already working on this, but it's nice to let them know that we want them to.
RoCkEt X The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.06.02 11:38:00 - [145] Edited by: RoCkEt X on 02/06/2008 11:41:10 i see a crapton of pvpers in this thread, all flaming BACON. i'm a pvper and out of curiosity i tried it. i run dual accounts, my main in one system, my alt scouting in the next. when BACON yells at me that theres a new local, i go looky... and hit scanner to see if i can be bothered to kill it. its also cool for afk gatecamping, if you are a light sleeper like myself, set up BACON, turn ur comp speakers up to very loud. then when a new local pops in - you can jump out of bed, run over to comp, gank his ass. wait for aggro timer to finish. warp back to gate. then go back to sleep. BACON helps in fleet ops too ^^ as an FC, i run my scout infront of the fleet, and my main with the fleet. if BACON bleeps, i know we have incoming, and i can quickly make my decision. it saves me the hastle of either buying a second screen for my comp, or tabbing between the characters. i wouldnt be gutted if they declared bacon an exploit, nor if they encrypted the log files so it didnt work. i like BACON personally, because it has advantages to both pvpers and carebears. making it easier for both, and harder for both at the same time. BACON has already got me a couple of kills, here is one of them: LINK we were on quick deploy back home (not moving as fleet but warping to 0 individually) then BACON bleeps, so i tell the guys to hold on the gate. which they do, he jumps out, BACON notifies me he has left the system, and bleeps again when he entered the system containing my main and the rest of the fleet. it works both ways, but i dont mind it really. its actually rather clever - and at least gunfleet made it public, so everyone is on a fair playing field.
Efa Morgan	Posted - 2008.06.03 08:44:00 - [146]
Acidictadpole ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.06.03 09:42:00 - [147]
Irista Ari'star	Posted - 2008.06.04 06:46:00 - [148]
Murodeeznuts GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.04 07:46:00 - [149]
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.04 08:15:00 - [150] Originally by: Reuser Second off, you really don't understand the meaning of the word hack, in my opinion. In the pejorative (bad) use of the word hack, a "hacker" would not seek the permission of the game company he is "hacking". Nor would said game company allow the "hacker" to release. Nor would said "hacker" remove features on request of said game company. thats the one part (the bold part) I don't like. I haven't a clue as to what the removed features are, but knowing that there is a potentially stronger bacon out there. while ratting (my only 0.0 experience ), I could have my client open, and my internet browser on another monitor. easy enough to watch local there. only thing I don't like is that some players could take fof ravens sit in the belt and alt tab and pay no attention.
Gone'Postal Scoopex The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.04 09:19:00 - [151] Supported, Bacon interacts (via the log server) with the game and automates a process the player should be doing but is to lazy to do. Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Ranamar	Posted - 2008.06.04 11:52:00 - [152] Originally by: Beaverid Tesu Edited by: Beaverid Tesu on 31/05/2008 14:24:29 Changing the UI is against the EULA. Creating an alternate UI is just the same as changing the old one. BACON is bad, m'kay? /me is all for getting rid of any and all third party programs. If CCP doesn't make it it shouldn't be allowed. I think a bunch of people have said this here, and it's still a real gem, to me... Do you really want to play without anything like EVEMON? How about without something like EFT? I know that some people still add up power grid and stuff by hand, but I know that if you had to do that, there'd be a programmer who would write something like each of those, and on top of that, CCP appears to truly endorse both of them. BACON is a gray area because it opens a whole new can of worms, partly because we know it could do much more, but still... people complaining about all third-party programs probably use at least one or two of them themselves. Besides, what about spreadsheets? Should we ban spreadsheets too for being third-party applications, too? Either all the people who complain about bacon are stupid and don't plan ahead, or they're all hypocrites, because we already have "must use" third-party programs that effectively change the UI, or at least provide functionality that the UI doesn't, and if I were CCP never will because it's actually better that way, IMO.
FellRaven GREY COUNCIL Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 10:18:00 - [153] I'm not in favour and have not used Bacon or any other similar applications. In defence of those who introduced Bacon, they were copying what others (Goons) have been doing for some time and did make CCP aware. So what ever changes CCP make I hope the will also target other applications and Macro-mining bots equally.
Conar shadow and flame	Posted - 2008.06.05 14:50:00 - [154] /NOT SIGNED.
Zorok LEGI0N F.E.A.R Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 16:03:00 - [155] I would like to throw my 2 cents in about BACON. As far as I'm concerned, this program is only an enhancement to the existing interface. To those that claim this program detracts from Eve, think about this- don't you think that in the future that on-board ships computers would at least be able to make audible sounds? IMO this is only a natural progression and this sort of program should be encouraged rather than stomped on just because a few people take issues with it. The program isn't foolproof but it's somewhat effective. Since this tool is now available to everyone, everyone has an equal chance to take advantage of it so to those who say it's not fair I say quit your whining and use the program too then. This program clearly does not violate the EULA and is one of the more innovative programs I've seen for Eve. Since it doesn't use macros, I believe this program should be allowed to operate with Eve.
Usha Lamia Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 18:45:00 - [156] Local doesn't work correctly anyways. If a cloaker enters a system and immediately cloaks, it should follow that he is cloaked and therefore should not be visible in system or local until such a time that he decloaks or decides to break tactical silence in that channel. I don't use bacon, I haven't tried it yet, but my understanding is all that it does is basically read the logfile for you in realtime. So it's a helpful 3rd party app. It's not macromining, macroratting or cheating in anyway that I can see. I say fix local first and then fix the rest of the buggy ass UI before we go picking on small apps. It would go to reason that if BACON gets the axe for being a 3rd party app, then maybe EFT, Evemon and the plethora of other tools should too. Maybe the API should not be availiable to players. Maybe the game shouldn't have the ability to be alt-tabbed down like many other MMO's have been in the past. Make it an exclusive client to the foreground of the computer it's running on and disable alt-tab. /NOT SIGNED
Dinique The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:18:00 - [157] Death to BACON, the**gots that developed it and thegots that use it. _____** The species has amused itself to death
NereSky Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.05 19:24:00 - [158] Edited by: NereSky on 05/06/2008 19:24:20
SomeHardLovin Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 00:16:00 - [159] Firstly..if you haven't actually installed and tried BACON.. you shouldn't be posting an opinion. Sort of like you shouldn't say a certain food is disgusting without trying it first.. otherwise your argument carries no weight.. its simply an unfounded opinion. Secondly.. BACON simply adds an audio queue to something that already exists as a colour queue. If you watch local you identify hostiles by their colour.. (ie: reds or neutral).. BACON simply adds a Beep to that colour. It hardly revolutionizes the system nor does it give some crazy advantage. If you are the kind of person that doesn't watch local you probably arn't astute enough to install BACON either. I use BACON.. I use it because I like the sexy audio queue and I like hearing what alliance the reds are from without having to open their profile. It doesn't make me a PVP god.. it doesn't make me unkillable (which is obvious from the various deaths i've enjoyed in the past few weeks). It simply adds something EvE should have already anyhow. There is so much drama around such a mundane tool. Props to the GUNFLEET guys for thinking out of the box.. but its not like the add-on has changed the way the game plays. The majority of these posts are full of sound and fury, but ultimately signifying nothing. Respect to those who have added constructive criticism. --- * The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance.
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.06 00:48:00 - [160] Edited by: Farrqua on 06/06/2008 00:48:15 Originally by: SomeHardLovin If you are the kind of person that doesn't watch local you probably arn't astute enough to install BACON either. However if you read the posts of some of the ones that are fighting so hard for it, you will quickly realize that players you quoted above that are not estute enough to install it are using it. Another words because they do not want to put the effort in paying attetion to the game they are using an "aid" to make sure they don't loose there ships.
SomeHardLovin Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 03:26:00 - [161] Originally by: Farrqua However if you read the posts of some of the ones that are fighting so hard for it, you will quickly realize that players you quoted above that are not estute enough to install it are using it. Another words because they do not want to put the effort in paying attetion to the game they are using an "aid" to make sure they don't loose there ships. Ok..so first of all i'm going to almost ignore the fact that not one sentence above was completely coherant.. i'll assume its a language barrier which is fair enough. Regardless.. they are already using an Aid.. its called Local.. and another.. called tags. Red tags for enemies.. no tag for neutrals.. etc. Bacon simply adds one more audible layer of tags. Bacon really just adds a sound effect to local. If you really feel that makes people invincible well then fair enough. I personally haven't found targets harder to find or catch than normal. Bacon doesn't tell people what ship i'm in or what gate i'm at.. it simply says i'm there which is information readily available through the local channel. Will it possibly someday prevent you from catching someone who would otherwise have been busy eating cheatos and not watching the screen for a second? Yeah maybe.. but that encounter is so rare you won't miss it.. but you will probably appreciate the features Bacon gives you (ie: announcing the alliance and whether the target is war or just unfriendly). To each his own of course.. but its certainly not worth the massive amount of posting drama its getting. --- * The opinions expressed are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my corporation or alliance.
Lucias Trask Shadows of the Dead R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:47:00 - [162] Originally by: Papa Ina I would like it brought to the attention of CCP that BACON and applications like it are detrimental to the game in general. If you want protection from wardecs and low/0.0 space pirates you should use in game means. First damn good Goon idea I have seen here. NO BACON!! LESS CAREBEARS!! MORE PEWPEW!!! [PANIC]
Tozmeister Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:39:00 - [163] According to the patch notes this is going to be fixed in EA. quote:- Several improvements have been made to logging, both server and client side in order to provide a safer playing experience and a better development environment. 3rd party tools that utilize the client logs will no longer provide useful out-of-game intel. This change will not affect 3rd party programs who use the EVE API (EVEMon, EFT etc) +++????+++Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start+++
Dani Leone A Dark Cloud Unaffiliated	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:53:00 - [164] -----------------------------
Luigi Thirty 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:00:00 - [165] BACON failure. ---- DOMINIX IS ~~INVINCIBLE~~BLUE:((((
Mortok Tristan	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:10:00 - [166] can we lock this topic, now that its official bacon is out... see EA patch notes. Quote: Several improvements have been made to logging, both server and client side in order to provide a safer playing experience and a better development environment. 3rd party tools that utilize the client logs will no longer provide useful out-of-game intel. This change will not affect 3rd party programs who use the EVE API (EVEMon, EFT etc)
ceyriot Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:24:00 - [167] derr... Faction Store - Killboard
Sazuka Kirr Angelic Industries Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.07 02:28:00 - [168] /signed
Niraia GREY COUNCIL Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:26:00 - [169] I consider this, and indeed anything out of game that provides the same functionality, to be an exploit. I hope CCP agree. - Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Kalinda Veldrin	Posted - 2008.06.12 13:06:00 - [170] I support the discussion of this issue with CCP.
redCube	Posted - 2008.06.21 18:51:00 - [171] keep ingame stuff ingame
Stalkman	Posted - 2008.06.22 14:18:00 - [172] I agree and/or support this idea.
Ranita Drell	Posted - 2008.06.22 17:34:00 - [173] Thumbs down. This program simply takes a piece of information that is already being outputted to the client and presents in a more noticeable manner. I fail to see anything wrong with that. As far as abusive exploits go, it's about as "bad" as customizing your overview to make enemies easier to notice and target. A good user interface works for the player, and that means the player should have a lot of control over how info is displayed. If the player is allowed access to a particular bit of info (such as the fact that a hostile has entered local, or that a particular ship is using a warp scrambler on him, or anything else) should be presented in virtually any manner that player desires -- via sound effect, text popping up in the middle of the screen, a line of text in a log, whatever. I feel it's pretty stupid that keeping your eyes on a chat channel is an available (and necessary) tactical precaution anyway. It's bad for immersion, and borders on what we call "meta-game thinking" in pen and paper RPGs. Having the option of finding or recording an Aurora sound-alike voicing "enemy detected in system" or, failing that, a simple warning tone, is far better for maintaining a sense of immersion than watching the chat channel. If the "local" channel were eliminated and and replaced with with some other mechanism of detecting other ships in system (perhaps tied in some manner to your ship's sensor capabilities), that might be fine by me.
White Ronin Screenout	Posted - 2008.06.22 18:04:00 - [174] CCP knew the large corps were using this type of program for a while by their own admission. They only decided to take action when it became public domain. So they stepped in and removed its use in the public domain. And as before, someone within a large subscription block will figure a way to do this again and ccp will find out but it wont be a problem till the other players of eve get ahold of it. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. "
Sin Fae Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:15:00 - [175] I would recommend an in-game solution: A skill set/equipment fittings that allows entering a system that keeps your presence hidden in local. (within game and on the log server)
Arthor Dark Gallente N.A.S.A. Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.07.03 19:31:00 - [176] Edited by: Arthor Dark on 03/07/2008 19:34:40 Can we get an [ISSUE] thread going to bring back BACON, but integrated into Eve? Having to watch some chat channel to determine if a hostile has entered the system is rather dumb. What's a chat channel got to do with flying a ship? Like an above poster said, Aurora should do a "Hostile detected" or "Friendly detected." Eve client is seriously lacking a decent UI, and an optimal one, should be one that doesn't have to be babyset and fought just to make your intentions realized, and having to stare at some small portion of a screen for an almost tacit update - it's ridiculous. You guys must all be real proud of the chat channel vulturing skills that you have. Is that even a worthy skill? "I can vulture over the chat channel for people joining and leaving the channel like it's nobody's business." Wow - mad skills. Lol.
CuddleMonkey Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.08.02 21:49:00 - [177] Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 03/07/2008 19:34:40 Can we get an [ISSUE] thread going to bring back BACON, but integrated into Eve? Having to watch some chat channel to determine if a hostile has entered the system is rather dumb. What's a chat channel got to do with flying a ship? Like an above poster said, Aurora should do a "Hostile detected" or "Friendly detected." Eve client is seriously lacking a decent UI, and an optimal one, should be one that doesn't have to be babyset and fought just to make your intentions realized, and having to stare at some small portion of a screen for an almost tacit update - it's ridiculous. You guys must all be real proud of the chat channel vulturing skills that you have. Is that even a worthy skill? "I can vulture over the chat channel for people joining and leaving the channel like it's nobody's business." Wow - mad skills. Lol. I completely agree and support everything said here. --- CuddleMonkey!
Reuser Caldari Gunfleet Logistics	Posted - 2008.08.02 23:09:00 - [178] Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 03/07/2008 19:34:40 Can we get an [ISSUE] thread going to bring back BACON, but integrated into Eve? Having to watch some chat channel to determine if a hostile has entered the system is rather dumb. What's a chat channel got to do with flying a ship? Like an above poster said, Aurora should do a "Hostile detected" or "Friendly detected." Eve client is seriously lacking a decent UI, and an optimal one, should be one that doesn't have to be babyset and fought just to make your intentions realized, and having to stare at some small portion of a screen for an almost tacit update - it's ridiculous. You guys must all be real proud of the chat channel vulturing skills that you have. Is that even a worthy skill? "I can vulture over the chat channel for people joining and leaving the channel like it's nobody's business." Wow - mad skills. Lol. Agreed. Make the Eve client have a reason to have sound turned on... As I have said 100 times before, there are thousands of reasons for Aurora to have a simple threat warning system, and virtually no reason for it not to. That said, I am glad that CCP is pulling the log server entirely. It will push the game back to a level playing field for a while. We stopped developing BACON after CCP changed the log server, but based on posts on our support forums, it appears that people were able to at least theoretically get around those changes.
Sweet Rosella 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.09.18 15:50:00 - [179] get rid of bacon and others like it
memphistopheles interimo	Posted - 2008.09.18 17:44:00 - [180] Edited by: memphistopheles on 18/09/2008 17:45:12 /Signed
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.09.18 18:20:00 - [181] They need to just get rid of local, and yeah, anything that looks like local or works like local. Don't stop with this third party add-on though. Get rid of it completely. You have whole classes of ships in the game that are supposed to be "stealthy", but they aren't, because of they all powerful eye of local.
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:09:00 - [182] Originally by: Kyle Frost In almost every combat, including EVE PvP, there is a thing called the element of surprise. What BACON does is it brings that element down to 0! Consider the following example: My corp is at war with your corp. You mine ore in some populated 0.5 system, let's say - Nonni. In order to be safe, you constantly have to scroll up and down the local chat list. Let's say you grow tired after a while and you stop doing it. Then i have a chance to surprise you - enter the system and find your ship before you notice that there is a hostile in local ( and i have done so on numerous occasions ). That is simply not possible if you have BACON. Even the most careless miner can hear the audio warning and warp to safety. If CCP wanted it to be that easy, they'd have made it that easy.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:26:00 - [183] Before anybody else replies to this thread, know that BACON is dead already, it has been for months, and you don't need to kill it further. ------------------ Fix the forums!
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:31:00 - [184] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Before anybody else replies to this thread, know that BACON is dead already, it has been for months, and you don't need to kill it further. BITTER NC ALT SPOTTED
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:49:00 - [185] Originally by: Seeing EyeDog Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Before anybody else replies to this thread, know that BACON is dead already, it has been for months, and you don't need to kill it further. BITTER NC ALT SPOTTED No, it is called common sence. Why continue posting about something that it already fixed and has been for months? ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Drake Draconis	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:25:00 - [186] Originally by: Seeing EyeDog Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Before anybody else replies to this thread, know that BACON is dead already, it has been for months, and you don't need to kill it further. BITTER NC ALT SPOTTED Dude.... go fly into a star or something. Yamamoto is being nice enough to tell you folks to not bother beating a dead horse. Your just jealous of his pwn4ge.

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