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Eight	Posted - 2004.05.04 11:25:00 - [1] A quick note: The new accuracy formula (mentioned in this Dev Blog) is now in effect on Chaos. The tracking and signature radius stats are NOT in final form. If you personally test things out on Chaos, please post your responses in this thread, otherwise make general comments here. ~Eight
Darkwolf	Posted - 2004.05.04 15:17:00 - [2] Edited by: Darkwolf on 04/05/2004 15:34:56 Terrible. Couldn't hit a webbed frigate at 45km with a 1400mm, didn't even scratch him after about 50 rounds at that range. btw, the point really needs to be made - frigates are ALREADY hard to hit at short range with big guns... It's just the wrecking shots that stuff them up, and hey presto, they're gone! Update: Was BARELY able to kill those same frigates using seven medium-sized neutron blasters and a webifier. Took a LOT of ammo to do so, even when used at optimal range while stationary.
Chode Rizoum	Posted - 2004.05.04 15:20:00 - [3] Chode is Afraid :( Centuria > whoot? Centuria > you stalking me? :) -- Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL -- http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.05.04 15:25:00 - [4] Just ran a quick test against a spawn of Serpentis in PF-346. Using a Maller with a mix of Medium Focused Pulse, Quad Light Beam and Heavy Beam I managed to take down the Serpentis cruisers 85k, and 40k I think in about the same time frame as the last time i tried. This was orbitting at 5km and webbing them. They did some damage to me although my armour kept up with it, they appeared to be trading blows so I would say the ratio of them hitting me to me hittign them was about the same. Against the 30k frigates (four of them that spawned with the cruisers), even when webbed they couldn't hit my Maller and I couldn't hit them. The best hit i got was a scratch for 11 damage and I think i got hit for a 90 wrecking hit at one point however myshields managed to fully recharge in the fight with them. So from that limited fight, cruiser weapons vs cruiser weapons appear to be roughly correct. The hitting frigates and getting hit by frigates is totally wrong at the moment.
Eight	Posted - 2004.05.04 15:52:00 - [5] Edited by: Eight on 04/05/2004 15:53:47 I'm updating with some different values for signature radius. This will INVALIDATE LOCK ON TIMES which can be adjusted later. Changes are... Frigate 30 -> 100 cruiser 150 -> 200 bship 500 -> 400 This should bring things 'closer' together. Also please note, NPCs will be ignored for the first part of testing and will thus have entirely bogus values. So you'll have to pretty much ignore combat with NPCs for feedback purposes. ~Eight
Majin Buu	Posted - 2004.05.04 16:42:00 - [6] i tested the new rats with my apoc fitted with 6 megabeams. The small elite frigs i couldnt hit, no matter how fast they were going or how far away they were, The cruisers were alittle better but not much. Fitting was also 6 megabeams with gamma crystals giving me 31km optimal, The targets range went from 40km to 5km (heading straight for me) and i only hit it once or twice, even when the cruiser was only traveling at 193m/s. I eventually killed everything with wasp II's BoB KillBoard
PirateShampoo	Posted - 2004.05.04 16:50:00 - [7] Ok, I was 35 km out from an abandoned Scorpion. I locked and fired my 5 1400's with phased plasma and couldnt hit the damn thing. Keep in mind that 35 km is just outside of optimal. Also, it wasnt moving. What is going on? If you nerf the tempest im outta here. Why not fix everything else that is wrong with the game? Yeah keep it up devs. theres plenty of other things that dont need fixing to screw with. Do you like movies about Gladiators?
Cirle	Posted - 2004.05.04 17:08:00 - [8] Firing from a Raven, gunnery skills of 3 to 4, stationary, firing at a Gurrista Imputor which was circling (V 199, R -3, T -195), using railguns: 425mm I (Anti); TR 0.00625 OP 33120 FO 27600 0/80 hits 250mm I (Anti); TR 0.017916 OP 14400 FO 13800 0/80 hits 150mm I (Anti); TR 0.05833 OP 7200 FO 6900 1/80 hits 75mm I (Anti); TR 0.1166 OP 3600 FO 3600 12/38 hits (TR - Tracking, OP - Optimal, FO - Falloff) Not tested: 125mm I or blasters. Looks like as it stands even the fastest tracking normal rail (the 75mm gattling) has less than a 50% hit rate on a circling frigate. The rest, no chance so far :) Cirle
Hellek	Posted - 2004.05.04 17:12:00 - [9] well cirle, eight said you should not try it on NPCs as they were ignored for those changes ...
Cirle	Posted - 2004.05.04 17:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Hellek well cirle, eight said you should not try it on NPCs as they were ignored for those changes ... Ah well, my apologies for trying to help. I'll go and wait for it to be indicated otherwise at some point ;) Cirle
Lettuce Prey	Posted - 2004.05.04 18:33:00 - [11] so it looks like smart bombs and FOF missles will finaly have some reason to exist. nuff sed
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.05.04 18:58:00 - [12] Darkwolf, You ever thought that 1,400mm artillery shouldn't be able to hit a frigate at any range? Cao
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2004.05.04 19:24:00 - [13] Yeah, artillery type weapons on a battleship (IE. The most powerfull and slowest firing weapons) shouldnt be able to hit frigates period, cruiser weapons should hit, but not often. You need to remember that artillery doesnt hit fast moving targets, it pounds large, slow, and relatively stationary targets. We all have to remember that these changes are trying to make cruisers and frigates have a role in PVP combat in eve, as it stands right now, you are in a battleship or you are in a frigate or Black Bird to quickly Webby/Warp Scramble and are dead pretty quick. Battleships in the navy are the most powerful ships out there (just like in eve) but there is a reason that they have frigate and cruiser escorts, they are powerful, but their guns cant track fast moving targets. We need battleships to fit a specific role, and the same goes for frigates and cruisers, otherwise we will just have everyone in a battleship, and how fun is that, to see everywhere you fly, someone in a battleship? It diminishes what it means to own one, to earn one. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2004.05.04 19:29:00 - [14] Edited by: Dust Puppy on 04/05/2004 19:31:07 I was shooting a bee with my glock about a year ago and kept missing. Then in comes my brother with a fly swatter and smashes fly and then said the weirdest thing to me "make the weapon fit the task". I've always wondered what he was on about __________ Capacitor research
Chode Rizoum	Posted - 2004.05.04 19:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Cao Cao Darkwolf, You ever thought that 1,400mm artillery shouldn't be able to hit a frigate at any range? Cao Centuria > whoot? Centuria > you stalking me? :) -- Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL -- http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
Xelios	Posted - 2004.05.04 20:05:00 - [16] Well with these changes it seems most large turrets will not be able to hit frigates at all without some major webbing and tracking enhancers. This makes them pretty well useless to fit on a battleship (for anti-frigate purposes at least). So now battleships pilots will have to rely on missiles and drones to save them from frigates. However, if the proposed drone changes go through in their present form drones will also be made useless against frigates. Now battleships must rely solely on missiles. Cruise missiles are unable to hit a frigate orbiting with mwd on, so they're out. Torps the same. Heavy missiles might hit, but don't do enough damage to be viable (besides the frigate can simply mwd away if it sustains too much damage). I realize these changes aren't final, but I don't see why frigates need to be given more of an advantage than they already have. I think they're just fine on TQ. They're cheap, dangerous in packs, and relatively easy to take out with the right equipment. 3-5 of them could easily take out a battleship, even with heavy drones, and even a single frigate can scramble and web someone long enough for battleship support to warp in and blast them. To balance this they're relatively easy to destroy with the proper equipment, as they should be considering they cost a tiny fraction of what a battleship does. So that's my 2 cents for now.
Edradge Caine	Posted - 2004.05.04 20:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Dust Puppy Edited by: Dust Puppy on 04/05/2004 19:31:07 I was shooting a bee with my glock about a year ago and kept missing. Then in comes my brother with a fly swatter and smashes fly and then said the weirdest thing to me "make the weapon fit the task". I've always wondered what he was on about Yea, you weren't even TRYING to hit the fly, and in the meantime the bee is still buzzing around. Either way I'd stick with the Glock.
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.05.04 20:42:00 - [18] In this world of 1mn 10mn 100mn junk, where mass is supposedly so important, how is it a frigate can web or warpjam a battleship. All this talk about mixed fleets, escorts and stuff, is pure garbage, because that is NOT how it is going to work. It's going to be frigs going after bships that have no defense against them. If frigs were being used vs frigs, and cruisers vs cruisers, you would have an argument. As it stands, people are using packs of disposable frigates as their is no RISK associated with using them. This whole idea is completely unbalanced. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.05.04 20:49:00 - [19] Originally by: ProphetGuru In this world of 1mn 10mn 100mn junk, where mass is supposedly so important, how is it a frigate can web or warpjam a battleship. All this talk about mixed fleets, escorts and stuff, is pure garbage, because that is NOT how it is going to work. It's going to be frigs going after bships that have no defense against them. If frigs were being used vs frigs, and cruisers vs cruisers, you would have an argument. As it stands, people are using packs of disposable frigates as their is no RISK associated with using them. This whole idea is completely unbalanced. You said it - it really bugs me that a frigate-sized webber can stop a battleship when there's so much put into mass calculations for mwd. Frigates, once wreckings and drones are "fixed", don't need any help with signature radius-vs-tracking-vs locking time changes. You're making frigs so good that there's absolutely no point using a cruiser anymore. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Balki Gruniet	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:00:00 - [20] Edited by: Balki Gruniet on 04/05/2004 21:07:22 A 1400mm cannon fired from a stationary BS should be able to hit a frigate that is standing still and to be honest it should completely wreck the frigate. For approaching a ship with a 1400mm: If a frigate is approaching perpendicular to the middle of a BS (stationary) with a 1400mm fitted and is heading directly for it there should also be a high chance of it hitting as well. Why? Basically unless I have my physics and radial math wrong, projectiles fly straight in space and the postion of the frigate in the sky is not going to change for the BS. The frigate is never going to deviate within a large number of degrees in the sky from where the shot was fired (frigate is approaching remember - flying directly for the ship). i.e. the frigate is placed at 30 degrees above and takes up 0.1 degree (arbitory amount) either side that. Its position in that arc isn't going to change i.e. it'll still be at 30 degrees above and as it gets closer it'll take up more degrees of the of sky. i.e. when it gets to 10km it takes up 2 degrees (arbitory amount) either side of the 30th degree. I believe in this scenario, any arty person worth their salt should be able to hit that sort of target no matter what ammo size they are using. Same for Hybrids and Lasers for that matter. Now if the BS was moving thats another story. In that scenario the position might change from 30 to 35 degrees and the frigates path is no longer straight toward you. Also if the frigate wasn't approaching but say manually plotted an approach point that was off to the side of the BS that is going to be even more difficult to hit. For orbiting a ship with a 1400mm: Ok so the frigate has survived its approach. It reaches 5km from the BS and now starts orbiting. The position in the sky of the frigate to the BS is changing from 30 above to 60 below, etc so fast that the 1400mm are never going to be able to hit. This I understand. While this is based on RL physics there is a need for a degree of artistic licence in CCPs forumulas to balance the game. That I understand. However IMHO making a frigate impossible to hit from a BS is just nerfing. I want to see a gang of 8-10 frigates taking on a BS not 2-3. The BS may be able to take out 2-3 on approach but then the other 5-7 are so close that the BS can't hit them and they do their worst. BG http://www.siriuscorp.info Australian/New Zealand Corp - Aussies and NZer's apply now in Sirius Channel
Nightfang	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:06:00 - [21] I don't know if it's intended, but drones still ain't fixed. Infiltrators from a Moa ripped my Rifter apart when it was 60km away from them...
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Dust Puppy Edited by: Dust Puppy on 04/05/2004 19:31:07 I was shooting a bee with my glock about a year ago and kept missing. Then in comes my brother with a fly swatter and smashes fly so what happened to the bee? sorry does the to-hit calculation return a simple yes or no? Do the wrecking shots still occur "one in 100 hits?" are combat values as static as it's starting to look like they are? It seems the only reason you don't hit for the same damage every time is due to the artificial random factor with the huge range thrown in to give the illusion of variables... Shouldn't the random factor be at the beginning of the process... not the end? If there needs to be one, since the computer's aim is "perfect," why not add some "jiggle" to the tracking speed number right at the start, AND have the "hit quality" be an actual result instead of "you hit" or "you miss," then the seed will be planted at the start for a spread of damage, - not to mention one that makes sense due to "good aim" rather than "ah, you arbitrarily do X damage this time because the RND gods smile upon you." Or is this still too horrible for the cluster hardware to comprehend? I realize that's a lot of calculating, but... tbh i want to cobble this together myself and test it to see if it does what i think it does, but i'm not sure i can write a simulation for the calcuations. I'll try... You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Katchin	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:21:00 - [23] Edited by: Katchin on 04/05/2004 21:22:18 Ive said it before and Ill say it again: http://www.bartho.fsnet.co.uk/eve.gif Lallante -SNRA- CA
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Balki Gruniet If a frigate is approaching perpendicular to the middle of a BS (stationary) with a 1400mm fitted and is heading directly for it there should also be a high chance of it hitting as well. i lost a few ships at release making this mistake. I foolishly assumed angle of approach made a difference in accuracy and approached ships in zigzag or spiraling patterns. Took me bloody ages and a lot of clicking and i never understood how guns with such horrible tracking were hitting me just as well when i was clearly moving the "wrong way..." well, ofc it turns out that MWD bang-on headfirst at 14km/s makes you harder to hit than travelling perpendicular and adjusting by random 45 degree angles at 500m/s . I got a bit peeved at the math at that time You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Bad Harlequin	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:26:00 - [25] Originally by: Katchin Edited by: Katchin on 04/05/2004 21:22:18 Ive said it before and Ill say it again: http://www.bartho.fsnet.co.uk/eve.gif Lallante -SNRA- CA seek professional help. You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike.
Kargon	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Bad Harlequin Originally by: Balki Gruniet If a frigate is approaching perpendicular to the middle of a BS (stationary) with a 1400mm fitted and is heading directly for it there should also be a high chance of it hitting as well. i lost a few ships at release making this mistake. I foolishly assumed angle of approach made a difference in accuracy and approached ships in zigzag or spiraling patterns. Took me bloody ages and a lot of clicking and i never understood how guns with such horrible tracking were hitting me just as well when i was clearly moving the "wrong way..." well, ofc it turns out that MWD bang-on headfirst at 14km/s makes you harder to hit than travelling perpendicular and adjusting by random 45 degree angles at 500m/s . I got a bit peeved at the math at that time Seems odd that the manual zig-zag approach would make you easier to hit than the no-skills, head-on approach. What would be the logic behind that? As the other poster elaborated, from the RL physics standpoint, it should be easier to hit a target coming straight at you than one zig-zagging towards you. And from the gameplay perspective, zig-zagging should also be rewarded. What's the deal?
qrac	Posted - 2004.05.04 21:56:00 - [27] all they needed to change were the wrecking shots and drones, instead we get a situation where a frigate becomes impossible to kill in a battleship. the current "balance" on chaos atm is totally whack. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
NaZguL	Posted - 2004.05.04 22:36:00 - [28] anyone see anything positive in this "balance" change, or is it only eve devs that thinks this is a good idea ?
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2004.05.04 22:41:00 - [29] EIGHT WHAT HAPPENED!?!?!?!? I asked you specifically in the balance change post about targets coming straight at you according to the new calculations. YOUR response was that as per the new calculations that it DID NOT MATTER what the speed or size was of a ship approaching straight at a target. You stated that all guns would get normal hits on the target until it went off in a angle or orbit. THAT IS NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING for NPC or PC frigate class ships atm. The calculations are SERIOUSLY FUBARed. "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
MatStar	Posted - 2004.05.04 22:48:00 - [30] I believe if they are going to make all these changes Cruise Missiles should weigh more therefore stopping frigates using them. It is possible to hit any target with large types of ammo.... What do u do when firing at a moving target? fire ahead of the target of course. You never shoot right at the target. If they change direction in time it wont hit them... I cant see but is there any info on how fast the ammo that the turrets use in this game go? I would have thought a laser is very quick when u fire one ie u pull the trigger in a matter of milisecs it hits the target. Now of course projectile would be slow.. Also im sick of combat in this game being compared to naval warfare..this game has space combat something which none of us have any first hand experience with....unless some1 here is a alien.... Just my thoughts feel free to flame me

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