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The Star Fraction and Government Militias

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The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 00:32:00 - [1] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. The Star Fraction and Government Militias The Freecaptains and Fighters of the Star Fraction have noted with concern the new moves by the core empires to press capsuleers into their service, as enabled by the corrupt bureaucracy of CONCORD with its so-called 'Emergency Militia War Powers Act'. Opposed as we are to all forms of government interference and usurpation of the sovereignty of capsuleers there can be only one suitable response. As of this announcement, the government-controlled militia corporations listed below are legitimate targets for Star Fraction pilots and are set -10: 24th Imperial Crusade, Amarr Empire State Protectorate, Caldari State Federal Defense Union, Gallente Federation Tribal Liberation Force, Minmatar Republic Further, any independent capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself to the core empires and their militias may be set -10 on the basis of such affiliation at our option. We also reserve the option of using sanctioned warfare against any notable capsuleer corporations that are affiliated to the core empires and their militias. Capsuleers who directly sign-up with government militias or who make themselves privateers and flag-carriers for the core empires are betraying the promise of the future. To cede any sovereignty at all to the forces of government is a grave error. It can only strengthen the hand of those who believe it is only possible to make progress towards a better future by imposing 'law and order' with steel and flame and seductive lies. We choose to resist this impulse. Better by far to achieve fellowship and rational co-operation by sound argument and honest words. Even so, we will not stand by and trust to words alone. The example must also be set and we shall look to our defence and the defence of the future. It may be that a new phase of bitter conflict is ahead of us. We may have many hard choices to make and thankless tasks to carry out. The lies and traps of the true enemies of the future may ensnare and turn those we once counted as comrades. If so, with heavy hearts we shall fight them, but light of mind and clear of purpose. We fight for our freedom, now and in the future. The Conflict in Black Rise While setting all government-controlled militias to -10, and noting that there are two geographically distinct war zones in the cluster following the recent upheavals, the Star Fraction will initially be focusing its opposition to the militia movements in the Black Rise region. This is to underline not only our opposition to this new form of imperial control over capsuleers but also to fight against the colonisation of yet another region of space by core empires. In this we oppose not only the Caldari State but also the Gallente Federation. While the State has appropriated this volume of space aggressively and is certainly guilty of precipitating the conflict over that region, it is clear the only response the Federation can conceive of is to attempt to conquer the region for itself. The Star Fraction opposes these imperial powers in their grab and counter-grab over this region and we will seek to hinder the forces of both to the furthest possible extent. Announcements on declarations of war against selected capsuleer-controlled corporations involved in this conflict will be made as events unfold. On behalf of the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction
Marie Trudeau Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.13 00:40:00 - [2] *Marie Trudeau sighs as she reads her comfeed. Ah well, it was to be expected in any case. I am disappointed, old friend, but not surprised. If we meet in battle, I wish you well, and moreover wish for a memorable engagement. MT ---------------------------
Julianus Soter The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 00:55:00 - [3] I had a conversation with Vieve about seeing your ships in staging zones near systems that held the FDU facilities. We expected as much, and thank you for confirming our beliefs. --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.
Dante Karaal Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.13 01:09:00 - [4] I read with interest that the the Tribal Liberation Force has been included in your target announcement. I myself will be witholding judgement on this militia until it is clear to me the degree of their affiliation with a government and state reportedly in disarray. I also note that another corporation known to uphold Fractionist ideals, Stimulus, has opted to aid the newly formed TLF. What is your position on this? Will they be aggressed by Star Fraction pilots as a result of their current affiliation?
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 01:40:00 - [5] Standings Enclosurism! It's the worst regressive doggrel I've read in a long time. In fact, Star Fraction has now been stripped of it's positive standings to Stimulus. There is no way in hell a group that would stoop to the level of Iron, Razor, and CVA will have anything from Stimulus beyond hostile fire. Pathetic. Jonny Damordred
Yoshitaka Moromuo Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.06.13 01:55:00 - [6] Friend, You and I have reached agreements in the past where negative standings were mistakenly assigned - the days where I was a self-employed, self-made industrial pilot in Providence. To this day, I still recognize you as one of the most intelligent, well-spoken members of the Star Fraction, and someone I can always walk away from having gained a new understanding of a subject. However, the days of my two-man corporation are long past. While I am still an industrial man, I do so to support a larger whole. And with these new revelations, I come to you politely to seek a better understanding of the Fraction's new position. Forgive me if the following question is rather frank, but will the Fraction's pilots be restricting fire to only those warships flying the banner of the militias, or will they be under standing order to attack any vessel connected to it, regardless of its function? I'd rather not see needless bloodshed, as I am sure you feel as well.
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:00:00 - [7] Can't say I was expecting something that drastic from my comrades in The Star Fraction. I reactivated my pod captain license just a few hours ago, and we are seriously considering signing up our little corporation with TLF. TLF might be a state militia, but one can fight for the interests of his people. Association with TLF is the most practical option available. I am a free captain at heart, but I was born a free Minmatar and spent at least half of my career as a capsuleer in low security Metropolis. Our people do not deserve slavery at the hands of Amarrian religious fanatics. We will win this war under the banner of Minmatar Republic, and worry about government influences when we can afford to.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:04:00 - [8] The Star Fraction will be making its own judgements in its own good time as to which capsuleer corporations that choose to affiliate with the government militias are set to -10 or not. I thank you for your question Dante, as it allows me to make clear a couple of points in general terms. There will be no automatic setting of capsuleer-controlled corporations to -10 for their affiliation with the government militias. Rather, the affiliation of capsuleer corporations with and support for the military and paramilitary apparatus of the empires will be a factor in determing their standings on an ideological basis. As a factor it will be balanced with any existing relationship with the capsuleer corporation in question, the degree and extent to which their support is expressed in word and deed, the relative threat level of the corporation and a number of other factors. We retain control over our standings list and we do not enforce our standings on others. We will continue our policy of weighing standings using diplomacy. This is in stark contrast to any capsuleer corporation that signs itself up for affiliation with the government militias. At a stroke, such a corporation adopts the standings regime of the empire in question and will automatically see any player corporation affiliated to opposing militias as enemies. I am not sure how any capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself with a government militia can have the sheer effrontery to accuse others of being standings enclosurists or on the level of such as IRON or the CVA. The reality is that a capsuleer corporation that affiliates to a government militia is, if anything, worse than such as RAZOR as it unthinkingly and automatically adopts the target list of those it chooses to take orders from. On your specific question, Dante, as Stimulus is currently a blue status corporation and has only stated that we are no longer blue we shall not consider them a threat at present. This is on the assumption that Stimulus remain an NRDS entity and that our loss of blue status means no more than that we are now neutrals. If any new information on this comes to light, we shall factor it into our thinking. I hope this answers your question, Dante. The Cosmopolite
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:16:00 - [9] Capsuleer Moromuo, Thank you for your question, which is partly answered by my reply to Dante but let me make it quite clear that our pilots remain under the long-standing RoE of only attacking pilots who are flagged -10 (or 'red') and are not authorised to attack on the basis of affiliation alone. Capsuleer corporations that are affiliated to government militias may or may not be set -10 depending on a variety of factors affecting that judgement. We will be exploring ways of making such settings publicly available so as to avoid misunderstandings where possible. The Cosmopolite
Chungito Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:19:00 - [10] Reconsider. At this point there is no more Republic, only the united tribes. We do not know what the future will bring for my people and their chosen form of government, but we do know that it is not the yearning for more space and high profits that can call my people to war. Do not forsake those who fight for the freedom of their race because of an affiliation with the ghost of a Republic. The Ushra'Khan does not desire tension with an honored ally.
Viqer Fell The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:23:00 - [11] So it's not just an excuse to provide your pilots with a larger array of targets then. No, of course it isn't. Nothing at all to do with that. What a crazy suggestion.
Marie Trudeau Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:24:00 - [12] So many rules. I always thought that the basic rule was to prevent new empires developing in nullsec. Of course you are skeptical of imperial advancement into new regions of space ... but that is a one-sided game. Not all empires have decided to expand into this space, and to be honest, if you shoot everyone you see there, you are, de facto, picking sides, even though you hide behind a screen that says you are not. You know as well as I do what is happening in the cluster now. If I didn't know you better, Cosmo, I'd say this was a reach for kills, and nothing more. That's very unfortunate.
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.13 02:44:00 - [13] Originally by: The Cosmopolite There will be no automatic setting of capsuleer-controlled corporations to -10 for their affiliation with the government militias. Rather, the affiliation of capsuleer corporations with and support for the military and paramilitary apparatus of the empires will be a factor in determing their standings on an ideological basis. I liked the Jericho Fraction better when -10 standings were reserved only for those who shot at JF pilots. This new policy seems to basically say "we'll set anyone we feel like to -10". Alas... Shin's writings
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 03:06:00 - [14] I would further argue the point, but the three ex-Star Fraction directors above me said it better than I could. Jonny D.
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.13 04:07:00 - [15] It would be most disconcerting if, in an effort to defend our people from slavery, we also had to contend with those who wish to impose their political beliefs upon others in the name of falsely-called "freedom". But we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. --
Tomahawk Bliss The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.13 04:09:00 - [16] what a huge PR debacle.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 04:22:00 - [17] I fear that whatever the former employment status of certain pilots may or may not be, it is rather less important than their employment status at the moment. This, again, is a principle that should be familiar to anyone who knows anything about the ideology of the Star Fraction. Passing over the regrets and rose-tinted remembrances of those who chose to part ways with the Star Fraction some time ago, in no case that I recall parting badly or in reproach, and who now cleave themselves to one or other imperial apparatuses, I must respond to our honoured ally Chungito of the Ushra'Khan. My friend and battle comrade, Chungito, and indeed all Ushra'Khan fighters and independent Minmatar fighters, I say to you that the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction deliberated long and hard over this decision. The formation of the government-controlled militias became official some three days ago. We in the Star Fraction considered our options and what was in the best interest of our cause very carefully. We also gave due attention to the likely diplomatic fallout among certain allies and friendly entities. Lightly-taken this decision was not. Easier by far, for us, would have been the road of partiality and compromise. We cannot take that path, much as it may strain some bonds and, yes, tear asunder others. What we can say, however, is that we have carefully monitored the state of all empires during these tumultuous times. We consider that our attention is best spent in the conflict over the Black Rise region where aggression and counter-aggression is taking place with, despite any protestations that may issue from the mouths of Federation apparatchiki, both empires intent on the conquest of that region and not its liberation. In part, this choice has been informed by the still fluid nature of the situation within the Minmatar Republic. While we cannot in good conscience condemn one government-controlled militia and fail to condemn another, we recognise that the conflict between the Amarr and the Minmatar is not solely a conflict between different governments or bound up in territorial disputes. There is indeed a struggle over basic issues of freedom and we know that many will take up the torch and fight for freedom. We would argue this can be done without submitting to affiliation with a government, even one so wracked with turmoil as the Republic. Naturally, it is for every individual to make this judgement for themselves. We, for the moment, shall take up the torch and fluorish it in the dark corners of Black Rise, where the struggle is a base and obvious war of territory and expansionism between two forms of government that each seek to ensnare the minds of capsuleers into fighting not for freedom but for the machine. The Republic may be collapsing but it yet exists and we cannot peer into the future or stay our hand indefinitely. However, we shall continue to monitor the situation in the Republic, and all other empires, should circumstances significantly change then the Star Fraction would clearly need to consider the implications for our policy. Friends and allies are always welcome to speak to us and advise us. We will entertain any embassy and consider any entreaty. For now, we watch, we wait and we shall certainly listen to those who continue to honour our alliances and friendships. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Marie Trudeau Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.13 04:30:00 - [18] "Employment"? Excuse me? In any case ... too many words. Translation: SF sees more targets in BR, and so that is where they will be. This makes sense in practical terms, because the warmap discloses that Caldari/Gallente are around 65% of the FW. So it's case of Targets-R-Us. As for the rest, that is nonsense. Since when has JF ever given a damn about one faction vs. another? You're now obviously picking sides. You've lost your mission, and you are out of your depth. I am at times sad and at times disgusted. Ugh, is all I can honestly say. Ugh. ---------------------------
Andreus Ixiris Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.06.13 04:47:00 - [19] If you seek enemies everywhere, everywhere shall you find them.
Tara Armitage Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 05:49:00 - [20] We are not taking sides. As ever, all empires are equal in our view. As ever we consider the situation and make the decisions based on how our resources are best spent in practice to further our agenda. The focus in question is a practical decision. As such it is no different from many other such decisions taken over the years. Also please observe how we are not taking sides even on the Black Rise -conflict itself. The time for others will come, but only when we consider it beneficial to shift our focus in the light of our wider goals. Thank you for your time, capsuleers.
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.13 07:07:00 - [21] Come on, is it that hard to understand the message of the Star Fraction? While I am over-joyed at events of the last week, and while Ushra'Khan fights along-side the TLF even as I write, it's not with some reservation I regard the militia system. I was bitterly disappointed when Concord re-exerted their control, their tyranny appears almost insurmountable. Their rapid implementation of the militia system fills me with suspicion. Has it escaped everyone that to join the militia and go to war against the enemy, alliances like Ushra'Khan have to surrender our command? I can't help but feel Concord have created a system of token warfare designed to do nothing more than appease the masses, and weaken that power base that operates as far as possible outside their jurisdiction. Seems to me very few people can, or are willing to, see that. -----------------------------------------
Rodj Blake PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.13 07:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Chungito At this point there is no more Republic, only the united tribes. Perhaps you should tell CONCORD that. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.13 07:48:00 - [23] It is said that wisdom is the thought that comes before a reaction; the silence of contemplation that precedes criticism. In you I see that wisdom, Karn. The kind your Amarrian counterparts could only dream of and feebly attempt to emulate. Hello there Mr Blake. To you, Doctor, and all of your colleagues. My best wishes. Though there may be many that are, not every task will be thankless. All too often the near-silent whisperings of gratitude from below will remain unheard amongst the stars. I hope you will keep that thought with you during the times to come.
Bacchanalian Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 08:01:00 - [24] I am saddened by the statements made by my friends and colleagues in the Star Fraction. I hope to never have to fire a weapon against them, but I have little tolerance for the sort of standings games that the CVA play.
Viqer Fell The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 08:09:00 - [25] I refer to one point you make: There is indeed a struggle over basic issues of freedom and we know that many will take up the torch and fight for freedom. We would argue this can be done without submitting to affiliation with a government, even one so wracked with turmoil as the Republic. So what you are saying is that it's ok to fight against the Amarrians, It's ok to kill slavers, It's perfectly fine to fight for freedom for the Minmatar tribes and people. Just so long as you don't actually do it under a certain flag or you will attack us. Ergo we can do what we like and indeed we can do everything we would as if we were in the militia as long as we don't actually enter the militia corporation. And if we do you will arbitrarily consider yourselves free to shoot us, at your own mercurial discretion. If it reads like looks like Standings enclosurism and it stinks like it then maybe it just is..........
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 08:58:00 - [26] Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 13/06/2008 09:01:01 I must admit, is heart-warming to see numerous militia supporters talk of the importance of avoiding standings enclosurism. I trust they will all be refraining from firing on members of capsuleer-controlled militia corporations until they have formally set them -10. I trust they will all be making their decisions on which capsuleer-controlled militia corporations to set -10 according to a range of factors rather than automatically due to militia affiliation. I trust that any corporations with positive standings who are found to be affiliated to opposing militias will have these positive standings taken into account and due diplomacy entered into. I trust that they will all consider diplomacy with capsuleer-controlled militia corporations and the possibility of agreements not to fire on capsuleer-controlled corporations affiliated to militias they happen to oppose. Finally, I trust that they will not be insisting that the only way to be returned to neutral status (or to put it another way, cease to be -10 and a legitimate target) is to drop all affiliation with a militia they happen to oppose. I'm looking forward to a confirmation on all these points from those militia supporters who have preached the evils of enclosurism and spoken of not playing standings games. We can confirm these points for our part. Will these others? The Cosmopolite
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:33:00 - [27] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Edited by: The Cosmopolite on 13/06/2008 09:01:01 We can confirm these points for our part. Will these others? The Cosmopolite No pilot fighting as a member of militia corporation or a corporation affiliated with militias can confirm these. However militia affiliates and The Star Fraction face their challenges under the different circumstances. Star Fraction distanced itself from any involvement with the governments of New Eden, and that is a fine choice. As a result Star Fraction is responsible for nobody but themselves. In the case of "militiamen", especially the ones connected to what remains of Minmatar Republic, they are responsible for the faceless and helpless (on galactic scale of things) masses of planetary population, whose interests currently happen to match with the goals of their government,- survival and defeat of Amarrian aggressors. The choice we are making here is between staying true to free space ideals or watching from afar how our people suffer at the hands of Amarr or incompetent command of Republic Fleet. One man's life and reputation versus fate of a race. And I believe you would agree that it is up to every individual pod captain to distance themselves from planetary population or assume responsibility for future of the people they were once a part of. Finally Star Fraction has always reserved the right to declare war for political reasons (not aggression alone), and that is what you are doing now. We are exercising the same practice by declaring war at enemy faction affiliated corporations through the TLF channel, and mind you, no Empire tells a capsuleer corporation who to attack. This is not a blind adoption of some 0.0 tyrant's standings by spineless renter worms. It is quite clear who we will attack by sighing up with TLF, and we made our rightful decision. You may weigh every corporation's involvement with the militias and decide if they deserve -10, but on the grand scale of things it matters not. People on the wrong side of your weapons will not care if you attacked them out of (self)righteous reasons or out of hate, jealousy or anything else. The end result is war. It is brutal, it is dirty, and ultimately it has no right or wrong. We all gamble with our conscience when we involve ourselves in armed conflicts, for our reasons that seem so worthy and just now might not stand the test of time. This is true in Star Fraction's case as well. I guess what I was trying to say is Star Fraction makes their choices, we make ours. Lets not take moral high grounds here because there aren't any. From my point of view the biggest part of free space ideals always was to assume responsibility for one's actions anyway. And believe me we do, nor do we bend our knee before Minmatar Republic by choosing to help its citizens.
Tablaren Kingdom of Kador Kingdom of Redemption	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Jonny Damordred Standings Enclosurism! It's the worst regressive doggrel I've read in a long time. In fact, Star Fraction has now been stripped of it's positive standings to Stimulus. There is no way in hell a group that would stoop to the level of Iron, Razor, and CVA will have anything from Stimulus beyond hostile fire. Pathetic. Jonny Damordred First of all, it's not possible for someone to stoop as low as Iron. Second while I despise their policy, at least the SF is actually sticking to their beliefs unlike many others. While they have a dark vision, at least it's a pure one.
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Tablaren Second while I despise their policy, at least the SF is actually sticking to their beliefs unlike many others. While they have a dark vision, at least it's a pure one. Continuing to follow misguided beliefs rather than see one's errors is not a virtue.
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Kudon Astraisx Originally by: Tablaren Second while I despise their policy, at least the SF is actually sticking to their beliefs unlike many others. While they have a dark vision, at least it's a pure one. Continuing to follow misguided beliefs rather than see one's errors is not a virtue. Right or wrong is subjective. Or do you imply there is other truth besides point of view?
Tatsue Nuko Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:32:00 - [31] Originally by: Tecam Hund Right or wrong is subjective. Right or wrong is objective. It is by necessity founded on nature and our function within it. However, we should realize that our ability to discern this function is not perfect - only in that sense could something like right and wrong be "subjective".
Viqer Fell The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:36:00 - [32] Edited by: Viqer Fell on 13/06/2008 12:37:50 In a very rare lapse Cosmo I think you completely misunderstood my point. I personally couldn't give two hoots about standings enclosurism. Star Fraction though do care about it a lot. Which surprises me because your entire announcement stinks of it. That was what we were pointing out. That effectively as a Minmatar I am fine fighting the Empire but that if I do exactly the same thing under a different coloured flag painted on my ship then all of a sudden I'm at risk of arbitrary attack by the "freecaptains". Then we have the other points you go on to make about respective standings. As an alliance JF sets standings following aggression or declarations of war. So let us suggest that IRON had war dec'd you, you would nto bother individually setting the corps of IRON -10 you would sensibly assume that they would all attack you and thus all become valid targets. If a factions militia is subject to a concord sanctioned war which they are then why would we need to start piffling about with standings? It's a war, they are valid targets, shoot them before they shoot you seems to be a sensible thought here. You seem too caught up with the semantics of enclosurism to realise it is not that we actually find them important, what we find shocking and for some abhorrent is that you are so vehemenently against them and yet your recent policy statement seems to based entirely on telling others who they can and cannot be friends with or you'll attack them. So no, The Republican 1st Strike Force will not be making any such statement as you request as the request grew out of your misapprehension and not from any previous assertion or protestation that we actually cared about it vis a vis our own foreign policies.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 12:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Come on, is it that hard to understand the message of the Star Fraction? While I am over-joyed at events of the last week, and while Ushra'Khan fights along-side the TLF even as I write, it's not with some reservation I regard the militia system. I was bitterly disappointed when Concord re-exerted their control, their tyranny appears almost insurmountable. Their rapid implementation of the militia system fills me with suspicion. Has it escaped everyone that to join the militia and go to war against the enemy, alliances like Ushra'Khan have to surrender our command? I can't help but feel Concord have created a system of token warfare designed to do nothing more than appease the masses, and weaken that power base that operates as far as possible outside their jurisdiction. Seems to me very few people can, or are willing to, see that. As ever Karn you speak with wisdom and insight and its for this quality we of the Star Fraction consider you of the Ushra'Khan amongst our finest allies and most honoured friends. You raise important points that should be taken to heart and close analysis by any once free-captain or aspirant post-human who thinks to place themselves beneath the yoke of Concord Sanctioned militias for whatever reason. I agree with you completely, I feel Concord have created a war of shadows and puppets here that they maintain control and status quo. I cheered and felt my heart rise in triumph scant days ago to see the Elders move against Yulai and I still have hope that the will to resist the true tyranny in the inner worlds is not extinquished amongst the tribes. But these are difficult issues and as thinking independent captains we must look behind the staged arena's of militia conflict and see the reigns of Concord hierarchy written dark against the true tapestry of stars. A salute to the fighters Karn. We live in interesting times. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Mazca Lopez Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss what a huge PR debacle. This can't be the Toma I knew, if anything he'd appreciate a spectacle. Same rock hard brutor body. different mind i guess.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:18:00 - [35] The entire announcement reminds of me of Amarrian religion. It is nothing more than a self imposed coffin. I thought you considered freedom above all things Team Minmatar
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:04:00 - [36] Edited by: Heartstone on 13/06/2008 14:06:39 What a ridiculous amount of rubbish has been spoken here. In fact the only person who has so far made any sense apart from our friends in Ushra'Khan is Rodj Blake of all people. It is hardly a difficult thing to fathom. The core empires are all, without exception empire building, territorial, stand enclosurist entities who are a hundred times worse in their ideology than any capsuleer created community so far. Those who join the militias or turn their corporation over to these entities are actively fighting in the service of them. If a corporation joined a capulseer created alliance that you had negative standings to they would automatically be set to a negative standings themselves. However in light of the extreme circumstances of recent times it has been decided in Star Fraction that we will make these choices for ourselves rather than automatically set anyone. Accusations of Star Fraction now practising standings enclosurism are at best ridiculous and at worst a pathetic attempt at self justification.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:11:00 - [37] Edited by: Mithrantir Ob''lontra on 13/06/2008 14:12:22 Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction and Government Militias The Freecaptains and Fighters of the Star Fraction have noted with concern the new moves by the core empires to press capsuleers into their service, (useless but fancy words) On behalf of the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction It's very funny that the so called Free Captains deny the rest of the pod pilot community the right to freely choose their actions, if these actions go against your plans. I haven't seen any officer of any Faction forcing capsuleers or even enticing them with rewards. All pilots that have enlisted themselves in the Militia did so on their own free will. A free will you deny they can have, since it doesn't suit yours. I was expecting something like this by the not-so-Free captains of Star Fraction. I also feel sad still that you proved me right. More and more you remind me something of the past, instead of the future.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra It's very funny that the so called Free Captains deny the rest of the pod pilot community the right to freely choose their actions, if these actions go against your plans. You have the "right" to support tyranny and submit to the authority of the baseline empires. We have the "right" to shoot you in the face. Your argument has been made before by better men and its not even a very good argument. Ultimately Mithrantir - if you choose to align yourself with base nationalist aspiration you will find ideological conflict with the Star Fraction. This isn't news.
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:30:00 - [39] With the TLF fighting to liberate their brothers held in slavery, and the FDU to resist a megalomaniac, I can only interpret this declaration as a veiled attempt to satisfy SF's bloodlust.
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:43:00 - [40] Originally by: The Cosmopolite [Passing over the regrets and rose-tinted remembrances of those who chose to part ways with the Star Fraction some time ago... I'm afraid you missed my point, I should have been more clear. Star Fraction has been setting people to -10 for ideological reasons for some time, now, without prompting my ire. The primary difference between those acts and the ones announced is in the arbitrariness of the setting. In other words, in the past people who have been set to -10 by SF either knew it because they'd shot at you in the first place, or they knew it because you'd announce "entity x is bad, we're setting them to -10". Especially in the case of entities involved in wars, you would announce that they were fair game to Star Fraction pilots. This made it obvious to all concerned what your standings towards them were. With this new system, it seems that the only way for a corporation associated with a militia to know it has been set to -10 is if they are fired on by Star Fraction pilots. Now, when I was in Jericho Fraction, I set a policy allowing JF pilots to shoot at neutrals if the neutrals were a clear threat. I remember at the time this was considered a pretty peaceful policy, especially considering the standard NBSI policies most corporations operated under. Assuming (unreasonably) that all corporations associated with militias operate with similarly peaceful policies, the obvious response to SFs announcement would be to immediately set you to -10. After all, if we don't know what you will do, but you've said that you may shoot us depending on your own decisions, it sure seems that you pose a clear threat. I suppose it's possible that your intention is to set all corporations associated with militias to -10, which is what this announcement seems to say, after you take all that into account. It just seems like it would have been better, in that case, to simply say "you're all -10, we hate you for your ideological views!", and leave it at that. To say that all of these corps "may or may not be set to -10, depending on how we feel" seems to simply be an attempt to lull some of these corps into not shooting you until you can spring a surprise attack on them.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:45:00 - [41] Originally by: Heartstone Edited by: Heartstone on 13/06/2008 14:06:39 What a ridiculous amount of rubbish has been spoken here. In fact the only person who has so far made any sense apart from our friends in Ushra'Khan is Rodj Blake of all people. It is hardly a difficult thing to fathom. The core empires are all, without exception empire building, territorial, stand enclosurist entities who are a hundred times worse in their ideology than any capsuleer created community so far. Those who join the militias or turn their corporation over to these entities are actively fighting in the service of them. If a corporation joined a capulseer created alliance that you had negative standings to they would automatically be set to a negative standings themselves. However in light of the extreme circumstances of recent times it has been decided in Star Fraction that we will make these choices for ourselves rather than automatically set anyone. Accusations of Star Fraction now practising standings enclosurism are at best ridiculous and at worst a pathetic attempt at self justification. Hand bags at dawn. You still owe Jonny a duel. Also, if you think the minmatar people are empire builders then you obviously missed the part where the Elders came to the rescue of our people in Ammatar, incited revolts, free'd slaves and ASSASSINATED government officials within the Republic itself. You talk about empire building but that is exactly what you have just done by gripping the ideals you so boldy hold to black and white. You don't need to hold space to have an empire, you just need to think you are better than someone else and drive a steak in their heart. This is exactly what has been done here today. You have declared a war with the Caldari and Gallente people while alluding to a cold war with the Minmatar so you won't be seen as unsympathetic to a worthy cause. You aren't going to make people change their mind with idle threats so just get down to brass tacks.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Hand bags at dawn. You still owe Jonny a duel. Already answered that I will fight him happily if he wants though although I am less happy about the needless loss of life aboard the loosing ship. Seems that he didn't respond however. Quote: Also, if you think the minmatar people are empire builders then you obviously missed the part where the Elders came to the rescue of our people in Ammatar, incited revolts, free'd slaves and ASSASSINATED government officials within the Republic itself. You talk about empire building but that is exactly what you have just done by gripping the ideals you so boldy hold to black and white. You don't need to hold space to have an empire, you just need to think you are better than someone else and drive a steak in their heart. This is exactly what has been done here today. You have declared a war with the Caldari and Gallente people while alluding to a cold war with the Minmatar so you won't be seen as unsympathetic to a worthy cause. You aren't going to make people change their mind with idle threats so just get down to brass tacks. I think you mange to miss exactly what empire building is about my dear. Star Fraction hasn't built any empire, hasn't claimed that certain system belong to them or that certain people aren't welcome in the borders they establish. The Republic has. It is easy to call someone a name because you don't like what they have to say but a rock isn't a stick no matter how hard to try and make people believe otherwise. I agree that the Republic is probably the best of a bad lot but this doesn't excuse it or make it a good thing. Too many people don't seem to understand the difference between the Republic and the Elders. We have not stated anything about the Elder/Thukker fleet. The Republic may have been decapitated but it's mechanisms and policies are still in place. We are not in fact saying anything about Matarian people at all as you should well know we are talking about the governing power known as the Minmatar Republic. As for idle threats I think it is quite clear that we will not be idle as we are simply stating our intentions so that people are aware where we stand. Please feel free to continue this interesting game of putting words in our mouths though it is most amusing.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Also, if you think the minmatar people are empire builders then you obviously missed the part where the Elders came to the rescue of our people in Ammatar, incited revolts, free'd slaves and ASSASSINATED government officials within the Republic itself. The Elders are an entirely different case. I'd like to talk to them, I feel their attack on the Concord power structure has shown us all something very special and the implications are still yet to be fully understood by many of the participants here. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra It's very funny that the so called Free Captains deny the rest of the pod pilot community the right to freely choose their actions, if these actions go against your plans. You have the "right" to support tyranny and submit to the authority of the baseline empires. We have the "right" to shoot you in the face. Your argument has been made before by better men and its not even a very good argument. Ultimately Mithrantir - if you choose to align yourself with base nationalist aspiration you will find ideological conflict with the Star Fraction. This isn't news. Then tell Cosmo to edit his statement and change the phrase implying pod pilots are forced into Militia. It's not a "right", it's freedom of choice. As for my ideological (which is not as much ideological as it is for the policies you have adopted) conflict with Star Fraction, it existed even before these dire events. The authority of the Empires is not enforced on me, nor do i submit. I choose when to follow or not. But the people on the planets have a right to life as much as we do. And that is something you don't care about. See you in space. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:23:00 - [45] This entire communication from Cosmo is nothing more than drawing invisible borders. If you can't see that isn't boxing yourself up in standings enclosurism then you are a fool. I don't even know what you fight for anymore when another's right to choose standings comes at the cost of your own. You have put the TLF to -10 because you have to if you want to pretend to be neutral to all militas. You could have made an exception because the fight is true and just. Alas, like an Amarr has to abide by their religion if they do not want to be outcast you too have to abide to the black and white of your doctrine. Team Minmatar
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:26:00 - [46] Look, the fact of the matter is that Governments are trying to exert control over space - more space that they already lay claim to. This insidious act is compounded by the fact that they're recruiting capsuleers to do the dirty work for them. I've been down that road before with Federal Intelligence - no matter how noble your aspirations, once you start taking orders from the nameless government bureaucrats and handlers at the home office you're going to quickly find yourself doing some pretty horrible things in the name of "Freedom". What happens when the Gallente Militia starts issuing orders to capsuleers to attack Minmatar holdings, or vice versa? Or to shoot on sight anyone trespassing in "their" systems? It's a slippery slope and you're already sliding folks. A Freecaptain won't be a thug for a fat bureaucrat back home and anyone that submits to that sort of thing is unfortunately just another cog in the wheel that may need to be smashed to bring the whole machine down.
Xeserox The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:27:00 - [47] Star Fraction has always been the anarchist group of the Eve Universe. What I find futile here is the fact that, while they are antigovernment, they are going to impose their will on those that feel that they are fighting for their country. It saddens me to see that they have their heads stuffed that far up their arse. They can sit here, with their own anarchist ways, telling people that if they fight for a cause they believe in, they will be shot at by Star Fraction, an organization that Fights for a cause they believe in. Not only is it a bit redundant, but that is going against EXACTLY what Star Fraction is. Why is it that YOU have the right to impose your will on people? Isn't that EXACTLY what CONCORDE does? Isn't that EXACTLY what you fight agains? It's a sad day indeed that you all would come out and make this statement. It is just as Hypocritical as those Amarrians that feel that Sarum should be Empress even though she broke the Amarr Divine Law. Xeserox - General Manager Eden Underground Radio -Eve Tribune -Eve Cast
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Kelsin Look, the fact of the matter is that Governments are trying to exert control over space - more space that they already lay claim to. This insidious act is compounded by the fact that they're recruiting capsuleers to do the dirty work for them. I wasn't recruited by anyone and neither was Stimulus. The only Militia formed out of retaliation is the one in Amarr. To the Minmatar people this is all out war and one that I would have thought the Star Fraction would understand. If the Seven Tribes of Matar assume the entity of a Tyrant then I would think we would not be part of it. But that is a different story for a different day and trying to label us as pawns while the threat of Amarr damnation descends on innocent lives is beyond ludicrous. Quote: What happens when the Gallente Militia starts issuing orders to capsuleers to attack Minmatar holdings, or vice versa? Or to shoot on sight anyone trespassing in "their" systems? What if the moons of Jita were all made of cheese. Don't be a fool. Team Minmatar
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:52:00 - [49] Kaylana unless Stimulus has joined an Empire militia nothing in preceding statements have labeled you as pawns of anything. But if you fail to see that capsuleers submitting to the authority of dirtside Empires makes them complicit in the subjugation of free space, then you'll have to take your own advice about the cheese-moons of Jita. The territorial claims to Black Rise and the standings enclosurism of the militias is no different than that of the CVA: "join us, protect our territory, fight our enemies, surrender your autonomy".
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Kelsin The territorial claims to Black Rise and the standings enclosurism of the militias is no different than that of the CVA: "join us, protect our territory, fight our enemies, surrender your autonomy". We wanted to join. We wanted to protect. We wanted to fight. That doesn't sound like surrendering our autonomy. Anyways, enough of the circle jerking. There are better things to do with my time.
DarkNicodimus Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2008.06.13 16:20:00 - [51] Yawn...Yawn... really now brothers of arms, does anyone here think you can change the beliefs of a group of individuals who dont think rationally to begin with. Star fractions set of ideas is a well thought out system that they can tailor, to suit themselves for any conflict. The whole community knows this and has beaten this against them in many threads. People with medical conditions like this, cannot think rationally like all of us. The best thing to due is ignore thier posts and dont respond. They feed off this Minmitar/Gallente, brothers of the sword will prevail
Azure Skyclad Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:06:00 - [52] We have stated our position on the militia issue. I don't see where we have told any of you what you can and can't do or what you should or should not do. Don't get me wrong, the possibility of crossing swords with many of you here doesn't exactly fill me with glee but this is where we are. Don't think for a moment that my conscience was silent during this decision because it bloody well wasn't! However, this life i have chosen was never going to be a one notable for being chock full of easy decisions and this has probably been one of the most difficult. You've chosen and we've chosen. I can only hope if our paths do cross in space we both consider out choices in that moment and choose what is right as our respective consciences dictate. I raise a glass only to the future, for the future is dance of many not of one. Of what may be, not what has passed. http://ultravixen.co.uk/
Viqer Fell The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:24:00 - [53] Azure, wake up and smell the Quaffe. I like JF and have no issue with your actions in the past but the excuse for this policy is a thin veneer of truth covering a wide streak of convenience and opportunistic target practice. Given that we will never know when SF will set us at -10 we have to assume from day one that you are -10. Why? Because we painted a flag on our ships and you cannot see the hypocrisy of your actions. That is it. We are doing nothing different today than we would do yesterday had we had a Concord sanctioned war in Empire space vs our counterparty races but because the Races Empires happen to be involved suddenly we're lackeys and lickspittles doing nothing more than supporting the devilry of Concord. It is not the wider policies nor actions I have an issue with but simply this rather odd manipulation of your ideologies to fit in with the aim of simply being able to shoot more people. That is what it comes across as and it is saddening to see so many ex-JF seeing the same flaws and *****s in the shiny veneer of the Press Blurb. I wish JF every success in all but this venture.
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Heartstone Edited by: Heartstone on 13/06/2008 14:06:39 What a ridiculous amount of rubbish has been spoken here. In fact the only person who has so far made any sense apart from our friends in Ushra'Khan is Rodj Blake of all people. It is hardly a difficult thing to fathom. The core empires are all, without exception empire building, territorial, stand enclosurist entities who are a hundred times worse in their ideology than any capsuleer created community so far. Those who join the militias or turn their corporation over to these entities are actively fighting in the service of them. If a corporation joined a capulseer created alliance that you had negative standings to they would automatically be set to a negative standings themselves. However in light of the extreme circumstances of recent times it has been decided in Star Fraction that we will make these choices for ourselves rather than automatically set anyone. Accusations of Star Fraction now practising standings enclosurism are at best ridiculous and at worst a pathetic attempt at self justification. I have no problem with Star Fraction picking their enemies, but I think I grow tired of this fanatical drivel. I am not even sure who it is aimed for. Half of captains in this thread were once members of SF. We know the inner workings of it. Promotion to director's status seemed to have opened your mouth a bit too far Heartstone. It boggles my mind how anyone from SF can see things in black and white. This might very well explain the promotion of course, or you are just pushing the Star Fraction's political line to the point of it becoming comical. You might also want to work on your diplomatic skills. Calling views of other people a "ridiculous amount of rubbish" will not get you far. I suppose see you in space.
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:32:00 - [55] Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 13/06/2008 19:32:42 I'm wondering if some pilots here actualy read what was said. The Cosmopolite said: "the government-controlled militia corporations listed below are legitimate targets for Star Fraction pilots and are set -10" and "any independent capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself to the core empires and their militias MAY be set -10" The emphasis is mine. Please note the difference between these two statments. It seems many here are skim reading our statment and jumping to some conclusions that are frankly laughable rubbish. A pity some of those who have done this are former members of the free space movement that have sold out and are now trying to point teh finger elsewhere.
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Kelsin The territorial claims to Black Rise and the standings enclosurism of the militias is no different than that of the CVA: "join us, protect our territory, fight our enemies, surrender your autonomy". Except CVA does not require anybody to "join us, protect our territory, or fight our enemies." Pilots and organizations are able to do so of their own free will. Whether they do or not, they still benefit from our protection in our space. Interestingly enough, the militias are equally voluntary. Ms. Constantine's approach made more sense: pilots are free to choose to join the Militias, the Fractionites are equally free to attack them as a result of that choice. That doesn't make the Fractionites 'good people' by any means (or terribly revolutionary, to be honest) but surely this announcement by Mr. Cosmopolite was predictable enough to anyone who understands the Star Fraction to even a small degree.
Tomahawk Bliss The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.13 19:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Mazca Lopez Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss what a huge PR debacle. This can't be the Toma I knew, if anything he'd appreciate a spectacle. Same rock hard brutor body. different mind i guess. nope, its me. join me on voice coms to check anytime old friend. Oh and feel free to check my rock hard body too. :) and hey i don't begrudge anyone looking for ways to increase their target count. doesn't mean it was good timing for the announcement
Dex Nederland Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:11:00 - [58] Originally by: Saul Dhampir Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 13/06/2008 19:32:42 I'm wondering if some pilots here actualy read what was said. The Cosmopolite said: "the government-controlled militia corporations listed below are legitimate targets for Star Fraction pilots and are set -10" and "any independent capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself to the core empires and their militias MAY be set -10" The emphasis is mine. Please note the difference between these two statments. While you may be making a difference in theory, there will be much less of a difference in practice. For example if you come upon a State squadron made up of members from the SP (-10.0), Corp A, Corp B, and Corp C (all neutral) - none of which are aware of your organizations politics or reasons - Corp A, Corp B, and Corp C will be added to your -10.0 list right along with the SP because they are cooperating in the defense of the Black Rise and their squadron mate is under fire from what to them looks to be nothing more than pirates.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:47:00 - [59] Originally by: Garreck Except CVA does not require anybody to "join us, protect our territory, or fight our enemies." Pilots and organizations are able to do so of their own free will. Whether they do or not, they still benefit from our protection in our space. Interestingly enough, the militias are equally voluntary. Indeed, it is the act of volunteering to have one's standings managed by a territorial organization that makes one complicit in their territorial aspirations. The militias are willfully furthering the dirtside Empires' space-holding agendas and so it should come as no surprise that their actions put them in opposition to the postuman destiny Star Fraction pursues. We as a capsuleer community should be moving beyond the primitive concepts of landholding that still pervade our culture, and these militias are a regressive manifestation of those useless ideologies. Abusing the power of a pod pilot to hold sway over the planetbound is simply and obviously grounds to be a political enemy of the Star Fraction.
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:05:00 - [60] Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 13/06/2008 21:06:44 Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Garreck Except CVA does not require anybody to "join us, protect our territory, or fight our enemies." Pilots and organizations are able to do so of their own free will. Whether they do or not, they still benefit from our protection in our space. Interestingly enough, the militias are equally voluntary. Indeed, it is the act of volunteering to have one's standings managed by a territorial organization that makes one complicit in their territorial aspirations. The militias are willfully furthering the dirtside Empires' space-holding agendas and so it should come as no surprise that their actions put them in opposition to the postuman destiny Star Fraction pursues. We as a capsuleer community should be moving beyond the primitive concepts of landholding that still pervade our culture, and these militias are a regressive manifestation of those useless ideologies. Abusing the power of a pod pilot to hold sway over the planetbound is simply and obviously grounds to be a political enemy of the Star Fraction. So what do you suggest we do? Lay down our arms and let the 24th Imperial Crusade overun the Republic's territoy and enslave it's inhabitants? (edited for format issues) ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:24:00 - [61] Originally by: Agustus Caesar So what do you suggest we do? Lay down our arms and let the 24th Imperial Crusade overun the Republic's territoy and enslave it's inhabitants? I'd suggest you learn how to stand on your own two feet, pick up a gun and shoot the tyrant in the head because you choose to do that rather than because some state-appointed puppet of a corrupt government complicit in Concord repression of sentient life and post-human aspiration tells you to do that. Those with the will to resist have been fighting oppressive memetics and hierarchal authority structures five years long Agustus, don't presume to to claim your pretty medals and commendations give you the right to special privileges in the eyes of free captains. The Ushra'khan I respect. You, well lets wait and see.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:27:00 - [62] Originally by: Agustus Caesar So what do you suggest we do? Lay down our arms and let the 24th Imperial Crusade overun the Republic's territoy and enslave it's inhabitants? I suggest putting slugs of metal through the hulls of 24th Imperial Crusade ships until they explode. But I also suggest that doing it under the banner of another territorial power makes you the same as them, just with a different flag.
Marie Trudeau Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:01:00 - [63] Certainly the Star Fraction has the right to set whatever standings it wishes for whatever pilots it wishes. I do find this rhetoric about the militias to be a bit puzzling, however. There are, as we all know, many ways in which the territorial empires are assisted by capsuleers -- the various tasks required by various state bodies (administration, customs, courts and various agencies, and of course the repective navies) have long been carried out by capsuleers, without commentary from Star Fraction. The capsuleers currently acting on behalf of the various CONCORD-sanctioned militias have no more been "pressed into service" by the various governments than the capsuleers who have been volunteering their services to the various state navies for years now ... including some of the pilots who have flown for Star Fraction corporations in the past. There does not seem to be a terribly strong difference between the pilots who are supporting the Federal Navy, on the one hand, and those who are flying in support of the FDU -- both are contributing in substantial ways to the war effort, and both are assisting the same government. Consistency would require any capsuleer who is assisting the governmental bodies of the warring regimes in whatever capacity to be set to -10, given the current official state of war -- at least as between the Ferderation and the State. Of course I don't expect this of Star Fraction, but I do not see how the approach described in this announcement is consistent in any way with the way that capsuleers serving the interests of territorial empires have been treated by the Star Fraction up until now.
Azure Skyclad Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:25:00 - [64] Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 13/06/2008 22:25:48 Originally by: Viqer Fell Azure, wake up and smell the Quaffe. I like JF and have no issue with your actions in the past but the excuse for this policy is a thin veneer of truth covering a wide streak of convenience and opportunistic target practice. Given that we will never know when SF will set us at -10 we have to assume from day one that you are -10. Why? Because we painted a flag on our ships and you cannot see the hypocrisy of your actions. That is it. We are doing nothing different today than we would do yesterday had we had a Concord sanctioned war in Empire space vs our counterparty races but because the Races Empires happen to be involved suddenly we're lackeys and lickspittles doing nothing more than supporting the devilry of Concord. It is not the wider policies nor actions I have an issue with but simply this rather odd manipulation of your ideologies to fit in with the aim of simply being able to shoot more people. That is what it comes across as and it is saddening to see so many ex-JF seeing the same flaws and *****s in the shiny veneer of the Press Blurb. I wish JF every success in all but this venture. To coin an ancient phrase: You've accepted the King's shilling. You saw a recruitment poster and threw your hat into the ring. I fear my sense of smell is just fine and i am reluctantly awake regarding a terrible dawn.
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.13 22:40:00 - [65] Edited by: Jonny Damordred on 13/06/2008 22:43:17 Originally by: Kelsin I suggest putting slugs of metal through the hulls of 24th Imperial Crusade ships until they explode. But I also suggest that doing it under the banner of another territorial power makes you the same as them, just with a different flag. So, instead, the cluster is to follow your shining example and wait behind you, in line at the CONCORD office to be given the privilege of destroying our enemies? Tell me, young one, what's the difference? We are helping an oppressed people regain their freedom, what is you paying for the chains that bind all of us doing? Dumb and blinded by dogma is no way to live your life. Jonny D. ------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:05:00 - [66] We have stated that the government-controlled militia corporations have been set -10. The basis for this is that these corporations are directly in the employ and under the control of the core empires. These are empires that we have long opposed. These are empires we have fought by many means, direct and indirect, over many years. These particular corporations are not under the control of capsuleers. They are the tools of imperial and government power. Their agendas and aims are not set by capsuleers, they are dictated by the empires. They are the weapons of our enemies. We choose to oppose them and we choose to declare, openly and with fair warning, that they are -10. Pilots who fly in these corporations will be attacked, for we have set these government-controlled corporations to -10. So much for the government militia corporations formed under the aegis of CONCORD and its 'Emergency Militia War Powers Act'. As for capsuleer-controlled corporations, we have said, repeatedly, that no capsuleer corporation that affiliates to one of the government militias will automatically be set to -10. As of this post, no capsuleer corporation has been set -10 for any reason related to the militias or the conflicts in which the militias are involved. People are making a number of assumptions and in one or two cases choosing to make accusations based on our announcement without reading what we have said. The Star Fraction will continue to set its standings as it sees fit and with due notice. We are, as I have already said, exploring ways in which these decisions will be made publicly available. Certainly, the officers of capsuleer corporations we set -10 for any reason related to the ideological struggle in the core empires will be notified. There is no question of arbitrary attacks on capsuleer corporations by our pilots. Finally, the question of what the difference is between an empire supporter and a militia supporter. Well, the fact is, there is very little difference except that of degree. Before CONCORD made these militias possible, the Star Fraction reserved to itself the right to set empire-supporting capsuleer corporations -10 on an ideological basis. These decisions were not made on the basis of the standings of these corporations or with a view to influence their standings. These decisions were made because they were supporters of the empires and, more to the point, active supporters of their respective empires. When the Star Fraction made these decisions in the past it was not standings enclosurism and no-one protested that it was any such thing. They may have protested it, often vehemently. They may have condemned us as meddlers, pirates, anarchists and any number of bitter epithets. They did not accuse us of standings enclosurism and many on this thread would have laughed loud and long if they had. Now though, amazing day, it is possible for capsuleer corporations to directly affiliate with the militias of the empires and suddenly to set an active empire supporter -10 on an ideological basis is standings enclosurism. As has been said, there is no magical difference here. The point eluding some is that affiliation with a government militia serves as a clear indicator of the degree of activity and threat of empire-supporting capsuleer corporations. It therefore must be factored into our thinking on setting standings. To ignore it would be the arbitrary act. It would be a nonsensical act. Yet it does not bind us. We will not play 'standings games'. We, indeed, have changed no existing standings with capsuleer corporations and have set no new ones as yet. Finally, I wish to thank those who have spoken privately with us, allies, friends and others, seeking to express their concerns, their advice and ask questions of us. Our door remains open to any who wish to speak with us on these matters or any other. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Viqer Fell The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:34:00 - [67] Edited by: Viqer Fell on 13/06/2008 23:39:29 Originally by: Azure Skyclad Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 13/06/2008 22:25:48 Originally by: Viqer Fell Azure, wake up and smell the Quaffe. I like JF and have no issue with your actions in the past but the excuse for this policy is a thin veneer of truth covering a wide streak of convenience and opportunistic target practice. Given that we will never know when SF will set us at -10 we have to assume from day one that you are -10. Why? Because we painted a flag on our ships and you cannot see the hypocrisy of your actions. That is it. We are doing nothing different today than we would do yesterday had we had a Concord sanctioned war in Empire space vs our counterparty races but because the Races Empires happen to be involved suddenly we're lackeys and lickspittles doing nothing more than supporting the devilry of Concord. It is not the wider policies nor actions I have an issue with but simply this rather odd manipulation of your ideologies to fit in with the aim of simply being able to shoot more people. That is what it comes across as and it is saddening to see so many ex-JF seeing the same flaws and *****s in the shiny veneer of the Press Blurb. I wish JF every success in all but this venture. To coin an ancient phrase: You've accepted the King's shilling. You saw a recruitment poster and threw your hat into the ring. I fear my sense of smell is just fine and i am reluctantly awake regarding a terrible dawn. Way to avoid the point old chum. How is me fighting the fight I am fighting as a person any different than fighting the fight i do under the militia? My actions are no different, the militia pays me no shilling, the people i kill are just the same. You claim that if i choose to fight for my people its fine yet if I choose to paint a certain flag on my ships hull despite the fact it makes no difference to any of my actions then I be a dead man. As I said, I don't disagree with JF's approach to most things but this is a blatant attempt to justify giving your pilots the rights to just shoot who-so-ever you want in empire space under the paper thin pretense you fabricated. Thank you to everyone who contacted us to chat about erm stuff. We always appreciate the banter and things. (Sorry Cosmo couldnt resist the poke)
Selim The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.13 23:48:00 - [68] At first I had no idea what Star Fraction was thinking about, but the logic has come to me. From what I understand, SF are not opposed at all to the fight that certain militia-affiliated corporations are prosecuting. What they are opposed to is the militias themselves, purely because they were created entirely with the consent of the Imperial powers and their instrument of capsular control, CONCORD. SF attacking any arm of these powers isn't out of the ordinary at all. I, personally disagree with the decision to set the TLF -10, though. The militia itself may be a tool of the Empires, designed to further their power, rather than reduce it, but such tools can be used against them. The capsuleers signing up for the TLF do so not to fight for their state, or other outdated memes, but for the ideas of liberty and individualism, for the idea that a nation has the right to liberate and unify its peoples. Nations might be a backwards, regressive idea but for the Minmatar, the nation IS their freedom. This isn't the Republic we're talking about. The Republic is withering away and all that is left is the heart and soul of the people. This is a nation whose only values are self-reliance, fortitude, freedom and independence, all quite compatible with the views of the Star Fraction. I understand the difficult position SF is in here, though. The militias were designed to create a simulated war so the Empires could exert influence over the Capsuleers in the event a real war broke out (if an unrestricted war were allowed to occur they'd beat each other senseless and the capsuleers would sweep up the ashes and start a new era). The militia presence on the Republic side gives some impetus to a revival of Republic authority, a bad thing. In addition, the capsuleers who have joined are forced to at least nominally declare hostilities against whoever the militia tells them to... but the TLF is not made up of Republicans, it is made up of people whose views align closely with the Star Fraction's views. So... I don't really know what to say, except... why attack the supporters of the one nation which is by far the furthest along to achieving true freedom? Why alienate your allies? I say help the Minmatar. Fight alongside them instead. Help them achieve true freedom by assisting them. They aren't all the way there, but not all problems are best solved by violence, as much as it pains me to say that. If even one nation achieves posthumanism, the rest will follow. The Minmatar are the only ones going in the right direction in this regard. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!
Yoshitaka Moromuo Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:00:00 - [69] Originally by: The Cosmopolite ... As for capsuleer-controlled corporations, we have said, repeatedly, that no capsuleer corporation that affiliates to one of the government militias will automatically be set to -10. As of this post, no capsuleer corporation has been set -10 for any reason related to the militias or the conflicts in which the militias are involved. People are making a number of assumptions and in one or two cases choosing to make accusations based on our announcement without reading what we have said. The Star Fraction will continue to set its standings as it sees fit and with due notice. We are, as I have already said, exploring ways in which these decisions will be made publicly available. Certainly, the officers of capsuleer corporations we set -10 for any reason related to the ideological struggle in the core empires will be notified. There is no question of arbitrary attacks on capsuleer corporations by our pilots. I would like to thank you for the level of clarification you have provided. Your commitment to ensuring a complete understanding of Fraction policy is commendable. Statements in the above post, unless otherwise specified, are not the official stance of Lai Dai Infinity Systems.
Thorradin State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.06.14 00:25:00 - [70] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Agustus Caesar So what do you suggest we do? Lay down our arms and let the 24th Imperial Crusade overun the Republic's territoy and enslave it's inhabitants? I'd suggest you learn how to stand on your own two feet, pick up a gun and shoot the tyrant in the head because you choose to do that rather than because some state-appointed puppet of a corrupt government complicit in Concord repression of sentient life and post-human aspiration tells you to do that. Those with the will to resist have been fighting oppressive memetics and hierarchal authority structures five years long Agustus, don't presume to to claim your pretty medals and commendations give you the right to special privileges in the eyes of free captains. The Ushra'khan I respect. You, well lets wait and see. I think you're just envious of empires that fared better than yours. Star Fraction's proposals are nothing more than glorified tribal and anarchist systems. I wonder what your group would do without the empires, their technology, or their assistance in any way. Tell me, how good ARE you at pinning down the location of a random capsuleer through your contacts, or designing blueprints? You need the empires so much that it likely eats away at you from the inside, knowing that what you hate is what gave you your limited immortality. You treat the empires as some horrible archaic evil to destroy, yet the Jovians, beings superior to any one of us, seem to find organization that you hate, to work. Do you suggest that you know things they do not?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.14 01:02:00 - [71] Originally by: Selim If even one nation achieves posthumanism, the rest will follow. The Minmatar are the only ones going in the right direction in this regard. As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it! You make strong arguments Selim, with insight and wisdom and you show your heritage as a free captain and a past friend and ally of the Star Fraction. I cannot and will not dismiss what you say out of hand and I will promise to think on your words and take counsel from those we trust and honor still. There is room for debate and persuasion here Selim. If the Matari cause is truly evolving in the directions you perceive that we may be on the verge of something wonderful. In any case there will be time for negotiation and counsel since our first efforts will be directed against the Caldari and Gallente militias hungrily attempting to seize control of Black Rise for their nationalist masters. Thank you Free Captain. You bring a much-needed note of insight into this discussion. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Illuvian Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.14 04:15:00 - [72] I must echo the sentiment offered by Selim. A revolution has just occurred in the Republic, a revolution representing the very ideals of the Star Fraction. Those serving in the Tribal Militia take their orders from no entity. They do not serve the interests of the government, for there is none. Now all our people have is the mission to free all those Matari still in slavery and to protect those still living in the Republic. The political allies of the Ushra'Khan and the Elders will soon control the Republican government. If not for the cowardly stalling tactics of Midular they already would. We do not seek empire, we seek freedom. Saying that you will set the Tribal Militia as a threat is not only foolish it is in direct contradiction to your own stated objectives. The Tribal Militia does not fight for the Republic, they fight for their people; an attack on the Tribal Militia is an attack on the Tribes and the consequences would be dire. Not only would you endanger the continued existence of yourselves, but also the continuing political revolution occurring in the Republic. I fight for self-determination, of myself, and for the people who still live in slavery. If I must I will fight those who stand in the way of that goal ... as I am sure will others. I strongly encourage you to rethink this corruption of your goals and your philosophy. Krusual through the blood of my father. Metus improbos compescit, non clementia. It is fear, not kindness that restrains the wicked.
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:35:00 - [73] If we had come to here are declared that the militias of the State, the Federation and the Empire where being set -10 but that the militia of the republic was remaining neutral there would have been page after page of people shouting 'hypocrisy'. I understand how these recent events have caused difficult conflicts of interest amongst many who we have fought along side, but would you also have been thinking hypocrisy? Furthermore, I want to ask some of our allies with whom we now find ourselves in ideological conflict, where you really fighting for free space? I have a growing suspicion that whilst you may have thought you where and perhaps kept telling yourselves you where, you may have in fact just been fighting the Amarr Empire and the Caldari State respectively. And perhaps are now struggling to accept that to fight for free space may also very well mean fighting the Republic. Ushra-Khan are a different matter. There cause always has been, and still is, very clear. They fight for the rights and freedoms of the Minmatar people. But as I stated before, as far as we know the TLF is a body working for the Republic. The same republic whose leader you issued wanted posters for. At this time it is understood that the TLF is an extension of the Republic. Until that is irrefutably shown to be otherwise I cannot see how we cannot set them -10.
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:49:00 - [74] Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 10:52:50 Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 10:50:17 Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 10:49:37 Originally by: Thorradin Tell me, how good ARE you at pinning down the location of a random capsuleer through your contacts, or designing blueprints? ((Thats called game mechanics, IE give us the tools to be able to do these and many other things independantly and we will))
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.14 10:52:00 - [75] Originally by: Saul Dhampir Furthermore, I want to ask some of our allies with whom we now find ourselves in ideological conflict, where you really fighting for free space? I have a growing suspicion that whilst you may have thought you where and perhaps kept telling yourselves you where, you may have in fact just been fighting the Amarr Empire and the Caldari State respectively. And perhaps are now struggling to accept that to fight for free space may also very well mean fighting the Republic. grins I've been fighting for free space in one way or another since my first weeks as a pod pilot even before I joined The Star Fraction. Many of the current free captains didn't even have their license back then or didn't know what free space is. I still continue to do so, and forever will. There is no denying, I was inspired by Jade, but understanding of the concept was always in my subconscious. There are more ways to promote free space than perhaps you realize.
Illuvian Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.14 11:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Saul Dhampir If we had come to here are declared that the militias of the State, the Federation and the Empire where being set -10 but that the militia of the republic was remaining neutral there would have been page after page of people shouting 'hypocrisy'. I understand how these recent events have caused difficult conflicts of interest amongst many who we have fought along side, but would you also have been thinking hypocrisy? Furthermore, I want to ask some of our allies with whom we now find ourselves in ideological conflict, where you really fighting for free space? I have a growing suspicion that whilst you may have thought you where and perhaps kept telling yourselves you where, you may have in fact just been fighting the Amarr Empire and the Caldari State respectively. And perhaps are now struggling to accept that to fight for free space may also very well mean fighting the Republic. Ushra-Khan are a different matter. There cause always has been, and still is, very clear. They fight for the rights and freedoms of the Minmatar people. But as I stated before, as far as we know the TLF is a body working for the Republic. The same republic whose leader you issued wanted posters for. At this time it is understood that the TLF is an extension of the Republic. Until that is irrefutably shown to be otherwise I cannot see how we cannot set them -10. Saul, the Republic has been disbanded! The only arms left of our state are the Republic Military and the Tribal Leaders. I truly hope you do not speak on behalf of your alliance, but... if you do then we may meet on the battlefield and I will mourn that day. If you do not, then I would ask to speak to Ms. Constantine or Mr. Cosmopolite. I have no authority to speak on behalf of the militia, but our goals are so similar it would be a tragedy for us to come to combat when there are dreadful evils for us to face. Metus improbos compescit, non clementia. It is fear, not kindness that restrains the wicked.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.14 11:17:00 - [77] Originally by: Saul Dhampir "any independent capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself to the core empires and their militias MAY be set -10" One of the things that always stood out at me during my time in the Fraction was Cosmo's emphasis on 1:1 diplomatic standings. Whoever a person or group was, we didn't care if they were allied with our enemy or allied with our friends, we did our best to treat them as an individual organization with their own choice of destiny. While I can see why you painted government-controlled militias with red, what strikes me as disturbing is the fact that by cooperating with a certain group, the Fraction reserves the right to set a corporation -10. This is the abandonment of the 1:1 diplomacy principle in my eyes, or at least walking on thin ice and hoping it doesn't break. If times have changed and this philosophy no longer stands, then fair enough. The group has evolved over the last year or so, and the Fraction today is certainly not the SF we worked with - however, if this is still the case, think about your own destiny. Just because one group has agreed to general cooperation with several others, the reasons may be vastly different - Ushra'Khan come to liberate their people and kill the slavers, others come to defend the Republic. Us? We come simply to kill Amarrian pigdogs and not have to pay that regressive organization CONCORD a fraction of an ISK. PS: I'm not painting any ship of mine with the Matari colors. They're ugly. Goal Line Blitz, an American Football browser game.
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 13:07:00 - [78] Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 13:09:08 Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 13:08:23 Originally by: Illuvian Saul, the Republic has been disbanded!" Walk into any TLF Office in Minmatar space and the 1st thing you see on vid screens is "Fight for the Minmatar Republic". also "Sebiestor Tribal Chief Karin Midular today called upon the Minmatar Republic to hold an emergency session of parliament as soon as possible" This was 2 days ago. I am not aware of any dispanding of the republic, only it's senate. Originally by: Sakura Nihil "One of the things that always stood out at me during my time in the Fraction was Cosmo's emphasis on 1:1 diplomatic standings." And I very much hope that will continue, and it is my understanding that it will. Understand, no-one will be set -10 without us being crystal clear that it is for the right reasons. Remeber Sak, that poeple giving out intel about us in the the CVA's intelegence channel would easily get them set -10 regardless of any shots being fired. We have always had to justify (admitidly to ourselves) setting people as -10. Our criteria for doing so had not changed. Everyone knows the likes of CVA and PIE are enemies of the Star Fraction. All we are doing here is publicly advising people that we consider the Militias enemies as well. On a personal note I want to make this clear. My understanding is that The Elders and there fleet are independant (at this time) from the Republic. They have been seem fighting alongside the Defiants, also independant (and indeed outlawed) from the Republic. Like Ushra-Khan they are fighting for Minmatar freedom and to liberate slaves. I will happily fight to me dying breath along side the likes of the Defiants and Ushra-Khan. The Republic is an empire fighting to control space. EDIT: messed up quotes
Selim The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Saul Dhampir If we had come to here are declared that the militias of the State, the Federation and the Empire where being set -10 but that the militia of the republic was remaining neutral there would have been page after page of people shouting 'hypocrisy'. So your decision was purely a public relations move, to not look like "hypocrites" in the eyes of those who are hostile to you anyway? This is a load of crap. You shouldn't worry so much about public relations. Focus more on your revolution. Revolutions don't usually succeed without bias and hypocrisy, by the way. I see no shame in being "biased" towards the only free-thinking culture in New Eden, or being a "hypocrite" when I know the truth and others don't. What you just said means only one thing to me: you're diluting your message in order to make it more palatable to the enemy. A ridiculous thing to do. You have the right to be biased. Use it.
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:23:00 - [80] Like many others The Star Fraction have been placed in a difficult position by the actions of Concord. This whole 'limited war' concept seems designed to both damage existing power blocks and prevent any new ones emerging. Concord has long been the foe of both freedom and of capsular alliances. Quote: Yulai û * This is a breaking news story * Scope News has confirmed that CONCORD Bureau Station in Yulai has been destroyed, and that all rapid-reaction defense capabilities of the police agency have been disabled. A general warning has been broadcast throughout Empire space that CONCORD will be unable to assist in the defense of any unprovoked attacks. This is a breaking news story that we will continue to update as more information becomes available. Does anyone find it odd that the attack on the æstationÆ at Yulai knocked out Concords rapid response ships? What other space faring group would be crippled by the destruction of a single station? Or hiveà My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:59:00 - [81] Originally by: Selim So your decision was purely a public relations move, to not look like "hypocrites" in the eyes of those who are hostile to you anyway?" Simply stating a fact. Twist it any way you like.
Nemesor Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Saul Dhampir Originally by: Selim So your decision was purely a public relations move, to not look like "hypocrites" in the eyes of those who are hostile to you anyway?" Simply stating a fact. Twist it any way you like. I did not see any twisting there. It looked like an observation based on a statement.
Saul Dhampir Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:13:00 - [83] Edited by: Saul Dhampir on 14/06/2008 15:15:49 Well then you must be either blind, stupid or both. I have clearly outlined in my various comments why the TLF are -10. If you choose to ignore that and simple pick up on one comment and base your entire objection upon that, well thats your choice. In any case I have little else to say on this matter. Some have chosen to side with the empires. We have not.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Saul Dhampir I have clearly outlined in my various comments why the TLF are -10. Opinions regarding the clarity of statements hold more weight if stated by the audience, rather than just the writer. San Matari Official forums
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 16:28:00 - [85] Originally by: Jonny Damordred So, instead, the cluster is to follow your shining example and wait behind you, in line at the CONCORD office to be given the privilege of destroying our enemies? Tell me, young one, what's the difference? We are helping an oppressed people regain their freedom, what is you paying for the chains that bind all of us doing? Dumb and blinded by dogma is no way to live your life. I call 'em like I see 'em Jonny - you sign up for a Government-run militia and you're surrendering your control over your standings to them. It's that simple. Now, it may be that your goals happen to align with the TLF for now and that's fortunate. And yeah you can choose to leave if those goals should cease to be aligned. But the Star Fraction has an ideological opposition to the surrender of capsuleer autonomy to the dirtside Empires and if you want to slag off on us for staying true to that ideal instead of compromising it, that's your business. It's your business if you value the cause of one side of this Empire war over our ideals of freedom from the Empires altogether. It takes all kinds, and someone has to stand up for and represent capsuleer autonomy from the territorialist memes when no one else will.
Centra Spike Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 17:30:00 - [86] Freeing people from slavery is indeed a noble cause, but contesting, conquering and occupying space in the name of an empire goes against the very ideals of freespace. While taking control of Amarrian space may be one means to free those they have enslaved, it is one I cannot reconcile with my own beliefs. I was unable to attend the Freespace Summit, but reading the transcripts I was especially moved by the following statement: "Here, friends, is the inconvenient truth. The necessity which we must never shy away from. If we allow them to continue, if we suffer them and theirs to live and act as they please, if we stay our hand in the name of pity, then shame befall us, for we are gambling with the future of humanity." -Tatsue Nuko Whatever feelings of solidarity I have with the Minmatar and their quest to free their brethren from enslavement under the Amarr, I cannot forget my purpose: to fight against those who wish restrict free movement of capsuleers. I respect all those who have chosen their path, it shows some individualism. That, we can work with. ------
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:24:00 - [87] Originally by: Kelsin you sign up for a Government-run militia and you're surrendering your control over your standings to them. It's that simple. Quote: But the Star Fraction has an ideological opposition to the surrender of capsuleer autonomy to the dirtside Empires and if you want to slag off on us for staying true to that ideal instead of compromising it, that's your business. How many war dec's have you put on various entities over the course of your existance? Who gave you that power? Concord? I close the books on this one. Hypocrisy doesn't become you SF. Team Minmatar
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2008.06.14 18:30:00 - [88] I don't understand what surrendering of autonomy we are talking about. Nobody joins TLF so they can be told to shoot Amarr loyalists. People join TLF because they wanted to shoot them in the first place. But in your eyes it all boils down to "you associate yourself with militia - you are a mindless slave without individuality marked for slaughter", and I do realize that only TLF itself was set to -10, not capsuleer corporations. This is called an alliance of convenience. Star Fraction always had alliances of convenience. Furthermore, it is a contract because we will not be fighting for free. Since when did Star Fraction oppose contracts? Yes there will be occupation of territory in the name of Minmatar Republic. At the same time Amarr will be losing military control over their systems. Do you think that Star Fraction fighting all the militias will not be helping one side of another at any point of time? People will remember you by your actions, not by the reasons behind those actions. We are given efficient tools to ensure survival and freedom of Matari people, and we should use them. After the war is over hopefully those of us who left a noticeable mark will be able to use their influence to liberate Minmatar from remains of their government and take them to the stars. This will hardly be a possibility if half the race is destroyed and another is enslaved, don't you think? Quit shouting slogans that are not even yours to begin with, and get some individuality yourself (that is directed to several overzealous free captains). Jade is brutally honest, and I can admire that. We have the right to support anyone we want, and Star Fraction has the right to shoot us in the face. Just spare us the sermons about loss of individuality and horrible evils of Empires. They are no much different from those of Archbishop.
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:42:00 - [89] Edited by: Jonny Damordred on 14/06/2008 19:45:56 Originally by: Kelsin I call 'em like I see 'em Jonny - you sign up for a Government-run militia and you're surrendering your control over your standings to them. It's that simple. If you think I surrendered anything, you just don't know me or Stimulus. Originally by: Kelsin Now, it may be that your goals happen to align with the TLF for now and that's fortunate. And yeah you can choose to leave if those goals should cease to be aligned. But the Star Fraction has an ideological opposition to the surrender of capsuleer autonomy to the dirtside Empires and if you want to slag off on us for staying true to that ideal instead of compromising it, that's your business. You might want to watch yourself here, you're confusing the point: "Star Fraction has an ideological opposition to the surrender of capsuleer autonomy to the dirtside Empires..." Really? I thought that the 'Freecaptian Movement' (SF really needs to rethink this phrase by the way, it sounds like something that necessitates a toilet) is all about expanding and sa*uarding the rights and Liberties of Freecaptians throughout the cluster. And how, pray tell, is this all any different than the contract ones signs when he becomes a Fractionista? The standard answer to the question of independence of Freecaptians vs. the good order and discipline necessary to run a military organization is simply: It is in their contract, and if they don't consider the contract in their best interests, they can vote with their feet and leave. We, Stimulus, have that same choice with the TLF, and yet you say that the Freecaptians of the Star Fraction are free whereas the Freecaptians of Stimulus are surrendering their autonomy? It is either lunacy or hipocracy. Oh, and try not to weasel out of that one, or I will bury you in Jade and Cosmo quotes. Originally by:** Kelsin It's your business if you value the cause of one side of this Empire war over our ideals of freedom from the Empires altogether. It takes all kinds, and someone has to stand up for and represent capsuleer autonomy from the territorialist memes when no one else will. See, here is one of the major differences between our organizations: You value your freedom above all; Stimulus values the greater Liberty of humanity above all. So go ahead and gnash your teeth at us all you want, it will not change the cold hard numbers: 3 million or so Freecaptains don't matter much next to somewhere between 10 to 100 billion enslaved Matari. If Stimlus has to destroy you, everything you care about, and 100,000 Amarrians to help just one of those people, we will gladly. It would be in Star Fractions best interest to give us a wide margin, for we are the proverbial bulls in the chinashop, Kelsin, and we are ****ed. Love and Ganking, Jonny D. ------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy
Remy Valios Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.06.14 19:54:00 - [90] Originally by: Kelsin I call 'em like I see 'em Jonny - you sign up for a Government-run militia and you're surrendering your control over your standings to them. It's that simple. But the Star Fraction has an ideological opposition to the surrender of capsuleer autonomy to the dirtside Empires and if you want to slag off on us for staying true to that ideal instead of compromising it, that's your business. It's your business if you value the cause of one side of this Empire war over our ideals of freedom from the Empires altogether. It takes all kinds, and someone has to stand up for and represent capsuleer autonomy from the territorialist memes when no one else will. Firstly, emphasis is mine. What seems to be missed, in all of this, is the necessity of the course of "apparent territorialism". The point of this war, from the Gallentean side, is to protect our citizenry, our people. It's why I serve, it's why I fight. It is the choice, I, with my freedom, made. It is well to say that you want to protect us from the loss of autonomy, but consider that you are essentially offering us: Serve in the Federal Defense Union, or another militia, with our guns vaguely pointed at your head, don't serve and be made ineffective in your cause to protect the people who have no recourse, by the red-tape of war declarations and bureaucracy of CONCORD, or don't serve to protect innocent lives at all. Militarily, the conquest of territory isn't to increase one's wealth and prestige, it's to put a buffer between one's home and the reach of the foe. Holding territory once the aggression has ceased, is territorial expansion. Until then, it is protection, a protection so necessary, especially in light of the deaths of hundreds and thousands of citizens with no means of protecting themselves, as has already been shown. If you're going to, as was so eloquently said, "shoot me in the face" for standing infront of those who have no means by which to protect themselves, no means by which to determine their own course, their own life, to empower themselves against a bombardment from orbit, then so be it. I'll be sure to forward them the news of each kill to those helpless people who'se lives you have forgotten in the equation so they know who to blame for their sufferings. _______________________________________________ What a terrible, necessary, dissapointing pursuit, peace is.
Marie Trudeau Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:44:00 - [91] Originally by: Remy Valios What seems to be missed, in all of this, is the necessity of the course of "apparent territorialism". The point of this war, from the Gallentean side, is to protect our citizenry, our people. It's why I serve, it's why I fight. It is the choice, I, with my freedom, made. ... Militarily, the conquest of territory isn't to increase one's wealth and prestige, it's to put a buffer between one's home and the reach of the foe. Holding territory once the aggression has ceased, is territorial expansion. Until then, it is protection, a protection so necessary, especially in light of the deaths of hundreds and thousands of citizens with no means of protecting themselves, as has already been shown. This is very close to my own sentiments actually. The men and women of Star Fraction know that I do have an abiding respect for their overarching philosophy. It has many admirable points, and I have fought for it myself in the past. But -- perhaps I have been home too long now, or perhaps I just see things differently now -- this situation, for me, is quite different. I can believe that I am an autonomous and free individual, and very much do believe that ... but I also do not forget -- cannot forget -- who I am. Gallente blood runs through my veins. This is my home. This is where my family has lived for generations. This is the culture which I love, and have always loved stubbornly. I can no more abandon all that is Gallente, and look the other way in this hour of national need, than I can cease to be Marie Anne Trudeau. And while I may share some of the healthy and well-founded skepticism of Star Fraction regarding the federal government, nevertheless the Gallente people (quite apart from the regime) stand under severe threat from a vile dictatorship that has recently shown its taste not only for wanton and unbridled aggression in Luminaire, but also its thirst for territorial expansion into the Black Rise region -- a region which the Caldari have already colonized in secret. If the Star Fraction really cared about territorial expansion, they would do something to reverse the Caldari expansion which has already taken place in Black Rise. Instead, Star Fraction is about to enter a war between an aggressive, acquisitive dictatorship, on the one hand, and what is currently the cluster's only working democracy, on the other, which is waging a defensive action against an aggressive neighbor bent on secret territorial annexation and wanton aggression against its neighbors. You see, even if Star Fraction were to kill all Gallente and Caldari militiamen in Black Rise, this would simply mean that the Caldari Navy (and the State) will have consolidated its control over territory which it currently claims as sovereign Caldari space. Black Rise is not Providence. This is space that is claimed by the State. Entering a war against both sides will only serve the status quo, which is Caldari sovereignty in the region. This is not even-handed in result, and it's quite short-sighted and regrettably self-serving to refuse to recognize the practical results of what you are planning to do. But then again, for some, ideology is all, ideology is king and god rolled into one, regardless of the result, the result be damned -- sadly. Yes, I know you will say what should I care, I do not have to rely on the Federation for my safety, I have the power to be free. But the point is that there are billions of Gallente who cannot, billions who share my blood and my culture, regardless of politics. I cannot leave them aside, or ignore the threat to them -- to me -- at this critically dangerous time. I cannot and will not. And it saddens me that former colleagues whom I respect in many ways are going, at the end of the day, to be serving the interests of those who would destroy the Gallente way of life forever. ---------------------------
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 22:18:00 - [92] If nothing else the discussion on this thread, and elsewhere, demonstrates that individuality is alive and well within the Star Fraction and throughout the capsuleer diaspora. Pilots of every stripe, hue and cry are making decisions in reaction to the cluster-shaking events of the last few weeks. They make these decisions according to their understanding of the situation before them and by the lights of their native intelligence and judgement. It is true that we consider that many of these decisions are the wrong choice. But we are not in the business of forcing others to change their minds. We are not in the business of imposing our will on others. Quite how we are supposed to achieve such acts of near-omnipotence eludes us. It might be flattering to be so accused were it not such a comical charge. In many ways, the matter is being overcomplicated by people who seem to think that our decision is about them or others like them. The sad, bitter-sweet truth is that we have to accept, and indeed have accepted, that when capsuleers make such momentous decisions as to join government-controlled militias, affiliate to them as capsuleer corporations, or otherwise support the core empires, then they are not going to be swayed except by realisation of their own errors. It must, always, be for capsuleers to come to their own understanding of these matters. We might try to aid the process by discussion and debate but we are under no illusion that we can force anyone to do anything against their free will. The decision that has been made by the Star Fraction has been made by us, in our interests and after due consideration of its effects with regard to our friends and allies. We do indeed act, in all things, in our interest and in the furtherance of our own freedom. It so happens that we in the Star Fraction hold that the best guarantee of our freedom is to see all others free. But we shall not be dishonest, we are not altruists and we do not pretend otherwise. The Star Fraction has ever opposed those who would maintain or build empires. Whether it be the old powers of the core empires, or the robber barons and collectivist dictators of the outer worlds. We do not, however, take diplomatic decisions on the basis of the relationship between one capsuleer organisation and another. We have many times taken decisions based on the level of support capsuleer organisations show for the old empires. These empires, along with CONCORD, are a tremendous threat to the freedom of all. No capsuleer corporation or alliance has or will be set -10 for its relationship with other capsuleer corporations. We do not consider the relationship between one militia-supporting corporation or another to be of any relevance to this issue. What is to the point is that capsuleer corporations that affiliate to government militias support, and support clearly and actively, the empires that control those militias. Nor do we care what the views of our avowed enemies may or may not be as to this decision. Their opinions weigh as heavily in our councils as last month's crusted fedo-droppings. On the other hand, we pay attention to the words of those we have fought alongside in the past. Some of these words we must simply note, perhaps with a sad shaking of the head, but in respect of previous honourable conduct pass over with no comment. Only true enemies can take pleasure in the unnecessary and eristic disputations of former comrades. Other words, from those who wish to sway us by reasoned argument, while trying to understand our decision and accepting our reasons for making it, must be treated seriously. We know that our interpretation of the nature of at least one militia is disputed by our friends. We take seriously the possibility that it is not as we see it. However, the apparatus of the Minmatar Republic is still in place and its leaders are preparing to meet. What comes of this may prove critical. We shall remain watchful of events. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Able Citizen Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.14 23:08:00 - [93] I see this communications channel is like an SF reunion of sorts . . . on Frentix. I greet all Fractionistas past and present!
Jonny Damordred Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.15 04:00:00 - [94] Originally by: Able Citizen I see this communications channel is like an SF reunion of sorts . . . on Frentix. I greet all Fractionistas past and present! It's Able, get'em boys! Cheers, Jonny D. ------------------------- CEO and Professor of Gunboat Diplomacy
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2008.06.15 05:01:00 - [95] Edited by: Cyriel Longinus on 15/06/2008 05:15:13 I would say this is a bad move. If you don't pull it off, recruitment for your member corporations will drop dead for a while. Because you're talking about enaging in a very public war with thousands of Pilots, from each Empire that are being followed by the press. You dont have the active numbers to sustain a military presence should you target the Gallante Federation or Caldari State within the Black Rise. If legaly feasible...the Militias have a method of dealing with your incursions by asking the independent capsuleer corporations that are now members of the Empires to deal with your visits should you enter the warzones. For the Caldari State, you're not going to get carebears .. you will get Pirates, Mercernaries, dedicated PVP Corporations stocked with veteran alliances warriors that have found something better in Factional Warfare than shooting a POS ... all of which have signed up to fight for the State. In fact. Consider this a caution. Don't enter the Black Rise to agrivate members of the Caldari State Militia. XERCORE: Recruitment
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:36:00 - [96] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Chungito At this point there is no more Republic, only the united tribes. Perhaps you should tell CONCORD that. i am quiet sure concord is still busy recovering from the last time the tribes went there to talk to them. recruiting -forum
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 09:57:00 - [97] Originally by: Cyriel Longinus In fact. Consider this a caution. Don't enter the Black Rise to agrivate members of the Caldari State Militia. Your yelps do little save to signal your presence in the undergrowth of Black Rise. This is duly noted. There are two things in the near future that you can count on happening: our forces shall enter Black Rise and we shall make every effort to harass and hinder the activities of statist militias. You may expect this to include the destruction of vessels flown by those pro-State capsuleers who merit our attentions. I dare say your next step is to move from chest-beating to making a decision as to what precisely you are going to do about it. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:04:00 - [98] Originally by: zoolkhan Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Chungito At this point there is no more Republic, only the united tribes. Perhaps you should tell CONCORD that. i am quiet sure concord is still busy recovering from the last time the tribes went there to talk to them. For which we are eternally in the Elder's debt. Shin's writings
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:12:00 - [99] Supplemental Announcement The Star Fraction has determined that the initial war targets among the ranks of Caldari State and Gallente Federation supporters fighting in around the Black Rise region shall be as follows: The Fourth District alliance, Caldari State supporters Strix Armaments and Defence corporation, Gallente Federation militia affiliates This announcement, together with the official declarations, constitutes fair notice. Due consideration of their activity within the conflict zone comprising Black Rise, Lonetrek, Placid and Verge Vendor, together with the histories of these organisations as active supporters of their chosen empires and past hostilities with the Star Fraction, lead us to conclude that operations against these paramilitary organisations are appropriate at this time. We fight for the dream of a free future. On behalf of the Freecaptains of the Star Fraction Supplemental Ends The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Tomahawk Bliss The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:59:00 - [100] Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 15/06/2008 22:00:57 Originally by: The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction[/b] has determined that the initial war targets among the ranks of the Gallente Federation supporters Strix Armaments and Defence corporation, Gallente Federation militia affiliates This announcement, together with the official declarations, constitutes fair notice. but, but, but that isn't fair you can't dec a corp involved in the militias like STRIX! oh dear, you know you just opened up a powder keg of crying and whining right? anywho, I've seen SF attack and crush the squirming noodle spines of the federation loyalists before, even made a video about it...this should be fun to watch. I hope STRIX folds like every other Federation force that ever gets in a tight spot
Wolfgang Jager Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:50:00 - [101] My how absolutely unexpected...I mean original even....sheesh don't you clowns ever do anything that isn't glaringly obvious?
Sabina Morningstar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:45:00 - [102] Originally by: Wolfgang Jager My how absolutely unexpected...I mean original even....sheesh don't you clowns ever do anything that isn't glaringly obvious? Do you plan to dismiss the drearily predictable project of deploying against the Federation in Black Rise in favour of starting a saucy burlesque tour through the looser areas of the Caldari State after having developed an affinity for the new and unexpected?
Ayari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.06.16 01:11:00 - [103] I'd like to thank Star Fraction for saving us the trouble of paying CONCORD. Please don't spend all your time in Placid, it can get terribly dull in Black Rise. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:56:00 - [104] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Further, any independent capsuleer corporation that affiliates itself to the core empires and their militias may be set -10 on the basis of such affiliation at our option. We also reserve the option of using sanctioned warfare against any notable capsuleer corporations that are affiliated to the core empires and their militias. So you oppose us submitting to governments but expect us to submit to you instead?
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 10:16:00 - [105] Originally by: AltBier So you oppose us submitting to governments but expect us to submit to you instead? No Mr. Altbier we expect you to realise that their are consequences to your choices. You choose to fight for the Republic. I assume that you believe that you are fighting for your freedom and to protect your people? We believe that we are also doing the same. The militia's represent a threat to our way of life and seek to influence the universe in ways we believe will reduce our liberty. The case of the Republic in our discussion within Star Fraction was never cut and dry as we enjoy many similar view points with our brethren in the Ushra'Khan and the Matari people in general but the major factor was the militia's supporting of the Republic which we believe is inherently corrupt and divisive to the future of the Matari people and those who associate with them. As has been stated above we shall be watching the events in the Republic unfold with great interest as it saddens many of us that many of the noblest people in the Universe are falling under the sway of these Territorialist powers. Fly in Freedom Mr. Altbier. Heartstone ---
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.16 12:33:00 - [106] Mr. Heartstone, I thank you for your fast response. Please also note that I DO NOT speak for any corp in any way. I am merely expressing my own views here. There are very few corps which have not supported the various empires in some way. Many fly missions for their respective agents, as Ms Marie Trudeau also points out. Originally by: Azure Skyclad I don't see where we have told any of you what you can and can't do or what you should or should not do. But you have or at least you have stated that you will try. Originally by: Centra Spike Freeing people from slavery is indeed a noble cause, but contesting, conquering and occupying space in the name of an empire goes against the very ideals of freespace. This I can understand and to a degree I even agree. We should not, in the long run, occupy planets or systems. Originally by: Centra Spike Whatever feelings of solidarity I have with the Minmatar and their quest to free their brethren from enslavement under the Amarr, I cannot forget my purpose: to fight against those who wish restrict free movement of capsuleers. Are you not intending to prevent militia members from entering the newly discovered regions between gallente and caldari space?
Krystian Luminaire Atrocity	Posted - 2008.06.16 13:52:00 - [107] Well looks like we found a target all sides of the conflict can hate. Hope you enjoy being assaulted by all sides and hounded by pirates. I will happily kill you as well. If this is some half hearted attempt to get faction loyal capsoleer's to join your Alliance, your only making it worse for your PR directors. You choose to butt in so die.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 14:19:00 - [108] Originally by: Krystian Well looks like we found a target all sides of the conflict can hate. Hope you enjoy being assaulted by all sides and hounded by pirates. Whilst I would not say we enjoy people attempting to kill our crew and inflict some annoyance on ourselves we are used to it. Our voice is not one that is welcomed by the majority in the cluster and that is something we both regret and live with. Quote: If this is some half hearted attempt to get faction loyal capsoleer's to join your Alliance, your only making it worse for your PR directors. Despite this being nothing to do with recruitment it does seem to have sparked some interest I will have to admit. Over the course of the last few months our application rate has been the highest in a long time with no sign of it slowing down. So thank you for your concern for our Directors but it seems it is an unnecessary worry. Heartstone ---
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Krystian Well looks like we found a target all sides of the conflict can hate. Hope you enjoy being assaulted by all sides and hounded by pirates. I will happily kill you as well. If this is some half hearted attempt to get faction loyal capsoleer's to join your Alliance, your only making it worse for your PR directors. You choose to butt in so die. No surprise here. We're found during our five years of opposing tyrannical memetics in the Star Cluster that the main thing the nationalist psyche CAN agree on is they hate freedom and independent capsuleer aspiration. Easy for territorial mindset on both sides of an arbitrary nationalist divide to loathe anti-nationalism, since it opposes the founding principle of their servitude not just the color of the flag they are waving today. Makes you think eh? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:36:00 - [110] No point in going on about how we feel about this. Add 6rasshopper inc to your -10 list.... you have been set to -10 and we will shoot on sight (so will any Fleet we are in charge of)... Thank You... Anywhere, Anytime.
Centra Spike Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 15:38:00 - [111] Originally by: AltBier Originally by: Centra Spike Whatever feelings of solidarity I have with the Minmatar and their quest to free their brethren from enslavement under the Amarr, I cannot forget my purpose: to fight against those who wish restrict free movement of capsuleers. Are you not intending to prevent militia members from entering the newly discovered regions between gallente and caldari space? They are free to go where they please, but since they are trying to occupy this new region, they can expect to get shot at. ------
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:41:00 - [112] Edited by: AltBier on 16/06/2008 16:41:54 Originally by: Centra Spike They are free to go where they please, but since they are trying to occupy this new region, they can expect to get shot at. I'm sure all alliances say the same about the space they control!
Azure Skyclad Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:48:00 - [113] Originally by: AltBier Edited by: AltBier on 16/06/2008 12:40:39 Originally by: Azure Skyclad I don't see where we have told any of you what you can and can't do or what you should or should not do. But you have! We have not dictated to anyone how they should conduct themselves. We have only explained our position on the militia matter. Whatever choices you make are your business. If you're asking me what you should do i could certainly make a suggestion. Your choices are still ultimately your choices though. http://ultravixen.co.uk/
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:56:00 - [114] As I said to your collegue, how is that different from any other alliance in space?
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:19:00 - [115] Originally by: AltBier As I said to your collegue, how is that different from any other alliance in space? As the announcement states, we won't shoot someone for entering a certain space. We'll shoot them because they are a nationalist dog seeking to claim space for a regressive government entity.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:56:00 - [116] Originally by: Swift Wind No point in going on about how we feel about this. Add 6rasshopper inc to your -10 list.... you have been set to -10 and we will shoot on sight (so will any Fleet we are in charge of)... Thank You... Thank you for making your position clear to us. We will hold off setting you to our red list until we are actually shot at by one of your pilots however. ---
Swift Wind 6rasshopper Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:57:00 - [117] Edited by: Swift Wind on 16/06/2008 19:58:53 Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Swift Wind No point in going on about how we feel about this. Add 6rasshopper inc to your -10 list.... you have been set to -10 and we will shoot on sight (so will any Fleet we are in charge of)... Thank You... Thank you for making your position clear to us. We will hold off setting you to our red list until we are actually shot at by one of your pilots however. Fair enough. added: wait, so Corps in the Militias are exempt? Can you clarify this please. Anywhere, Anytime.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:45:00 - [118] Edited by: Heartstone on 16/06/2008 20:46:13 Originally by: Swift Wind added: wait, so Corps in the Militias are exempt? Can you clarify this please. It's all in the original announcement let me clarify. We have set the state sponsored militias themselves to -10. This is the State Protectorate, the Federal Defence Union, the 24th Imperial Crusade and the Tribal Liberation Force. These are the only standing alterations we have made. At the same time we have announced that any capulseer corp joining the overall Militia structure will be determined to be fighting directly on behalf of the appropriate territorial power. This doesn't automatically adjust our standings to them but is considered to be a black mark in the ledger so to speak. Pilots who run missions for the various corporations within the Empires will not have any such connected issues as they are freelancing and a certain degree of separation exists between the Freelancer and the Empire. So far no new standings have been set on any capsuleer organisation as a result of their being part of a capsuleer militia corporation. (To the best of my knowledge although I have been logged out of the Star Fraction information network for a few hours at this point) As always anyone firing on a Star Fraction vessel will be considered hostile and their corporation/alliance will be set to negative standings although in the case of a mistaken incident we always welcome a diplomatic conversation. I hope this helps clear things up. Please feel free to contact myself or one of the other directors for more information. Heartstone ---
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.17 07:51:00 - [119] Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: AltBier As I said to your collegue, how is that different from any other alliance in space? As the announcement states, we won't shoot someone for entering a certain space. We'll shoot them because they are a nationalist dog seeking to claim space for a regressive government entity. What I find mildly confusing is that you are, defacto, seeking to keep people out of the newly descovered regions who, AFAIK, operate under the NRDS which I believe you are trying to foster.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.17 09:41:00 - [120] Originally by: AltBier What I find mildly confusing is that you are, defacto, seeking to keep people out of the newly descovered regions who, AFAIK, operate under the NRDS which I believe you are trying to foster. With respect this is inncorrect. We aren't attempting to force people out of a region, in fact we rejoice that thier newly opened up space is already quite heavily populated. What we are trying to do, in part, is attempt to reduce the capulseer support of the core government entites thereby weakening thier ability to quickly "grab" more territory for themsleves. In regards to the NRDS issue well as stated the only entities who have had thier status changed so far are the corprorations of pilots who have activly engaged us and those government controlled militias. We are, as always, open to diplomatic discussions. It is with sadness we note that one of the militias has already given orders to it's affiliated capsuleer corporations to unilaterally set Star Fraction to negative standings. I personally hope some of those corporations will see this enclosurist piece of mind control for what it is and withdraw thier support or at least ignore the instruction as it will only lead to more death and destruction. Heartstone ---
AltBier Freelance Unincorporated	Posted - 2008.06.17 10:17:00 - [121] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: AltBier What I find mildly confusing is that you are, defacto, seeking to keep people out of the newly descovered regions who, AFAIK, operate under the NRDS which I believe you are trying to foster. With respect this is inncorrect. We aren't attempting to force people out of a region, in fact we rejoice that thier newly opened up space is already quite heavily populated. What we are trying to do, in part, is attempt to reduce the capulseer support of the core government entites thereby weakening thier ability to quickly "grab" more territory for themsleves. I think you are treading a very fine line there and I'm still not convinced that you haven't already overstepped it. Originally by: Heartstone In regards to the NRDS issue well as stated the only entities who have had thier status changed so far are the corprorations of pilots who have activly engaged us and those government controlled militias. We are, as always, open to diplomatic discussions. How does that address the issue? Do the government controlled militias operate NBSI ? Originally by: Heartstone It is with sadness we note that one of the militias has already given orders to it's affiliated capsuleer corporations to unilaterally set Star Fraction to negative standings. I personally hope some of those corporations will see this enclosurist piece of mind control for what it is and withdraw thier support or at least ignore the instruction as it will only lead to more death and destruction. This does not surprise me. Are there any other alliances where you have set some corps to red and others to neutral or even blue? I fear there will be much confusion in the heat of battle. Let me close by saying that it is my sincere wish to avoid combat with your alliance, who's general aims I broadly support. It will be interesting to see how this develops.
Kade Jeekin Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.17 10:46:00 - [122] Edited by: Kade Jeekin on 17/06/2008 10:48:05 Star Fraction. Your position is perfectly understandable. Given the overwhelming power of the core states, backed up by CONCORD, and given your relatively underwhelming puniness, hitting out at the state supporting militias does seem the only course of action open to you. Many anti-slavery paramilitaries have had exactly this problem. Unable to affect the Amarr state directly. So, I can sympathise. Luckily for us, the anti-slavery paramilitaries, we now have one more tactic to add to our strategy. We do not act for our state but for the freedom of our people. Edit: I will add that not all nations are imperial. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity ---------------------------------------
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:42:00 - [123] In the light of the recent Minmatar address by former CONCORD Ambassador Keitan Yun and Sebiestor Tribal Chief Karin Midular to reshape I urge Star Fraction to reconsider their standings to the Minmatar Republic at this time. I do not see the need to beat the drums before our people have time to decide for itself how our futures plays out within the borders of our Space. Team Minmatar
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:30:00 - [124] You can be rest assured Ms. Syi that we are watching the developments in the Republic with great interest. Personally speaking I feel the Matari people hold the greatest hope for the core systems to evolve into something more accepting of the implications the new capsuleer technologies create for humankind. At this time, with no actual movement seen in their policies, I feel it may be premature to make a full review of our stance in regard to the Republic itself. On a personal note I was very pleased to hear of the release of so many captive slaves from the Kourmonen system earlier today as was my wife who still has many relations amongst the slaves kept by the Amarrian Empire. However the declaration of Republic Laws being in effect in worries me a great deal as it is a shallow step from this to outright expansionism. If this declaration is officially recognised by the Republic I fear it will be a sign of things to come. Heartstone ---
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.17 15:57:00 - [125] Originally by: Kaylana Syi In the light of the recent Minmatar address by former CONCORD Ambassador Keitan Yun and Sebiestor Tribal Chief Karin Midular to reshape I urge Star Fraction to reconsider their standings to the Minmatar Republic at this time. As Heartstone has already said. We are opened-minded to this issue and rest assured that the Free Captains of the Star Fraction are watching developments in the Minmatar Republic very carefully. We would whole-heartedly welcome the progressive evolution of the Matari political system at this point and should this come to pass then literally anything is possible. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

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