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Viqtoria Groping Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.06.16 22:24:00 - [31] but the bantam is a strong and sturdy craft.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Doddy You have heard of jetcan mining right? Cargo space doesn't matter. One would assume a t2 frig would mine better than a cruiser so the cost issue is unimportant there. It would obviously be less skill intensive than a covetor, and better than a procurer. Basically it is just the retreiver that would be competing with it. A t2 mining frig would obviously be better for people who were training frig 5 for another reason anyway. Not that I think that there should be a t2 mining frig, i just think your arguments are flawed. Ideally i would like to see a non pvp ship, preferably one related to either salvaging or the proffessions (hacking/archaeology/anything else ccp throws in). I understand your disagreement with my arguments, and while I don't doubt your conviction, I would like to attempt to convince you otherwise. First of all, I will discount jetcan mining for two reasons: 1) ANY ship that can fit a mining laser can jetcan mine. As it is in no way unique to mining barges, exhumers, and mining boosted ships, I will leave it off. It's simply not germain to the subject 2) Do we REALLY want to create a ship which is specifically designed around an activity that encourages BOTH macro-mining AND hisec piracy? Nothing against hi-sec piracy, I've done it myself and find it very enjoyable. I'm just saying that Jetcans (which were only added to the game since miners were exploiting the jettison "fields") aren't something that we really want to encourage. However, beyond those two reasons there are good game mechanic reasons to not create a T2 mining ship. Allow me to set up an example. Since both of our characters are Gallente, I will use Gallente ships for my example. I'm sure someone more versed with other race's ships could do the same for that race. The T1 Frigate in question for the Gallente is the Navitas. Here is a basic run-down of the Navitas's stats that are important to the discussion at hand: NAVITAS Special Ability: 5% bonus to cargo capacity and 20% bonus to mining laser yield per level. -60% mining laser capacitor use Fitting powergrid Output - 20 Low Slots - 2 Med Slots - 2 High Slots - 2 CPU Output - 150 Launcher hardpoints - 0 Turret hardpoints - 2 Structure Max Velocity - 290 Drone Capacity - 5 capacity - 215 m3 Required skills Primary Skill required: Gallente Frigate II Spaceship Command I I took these from the EVE-O website Item Database, feel free to check them yourself. Now, without getting into a micro-analysis, We can see that the important items are the boost to cargo capacity, boost to mining laser yield, reduction in cap needs for mining lasers, the number of turret hardpoints, the overall fit capability, and the skills needed. Now let's look at two Gallente cruisers: EXEQUROR Special Ability: 10% bonus to Cargo Capacity per level. 10% bonus to capacitor need of remote armor repair system per level. 500% bonus to range of remote armor repair systems. Fitting powergrid Output - 500 Low Slots - 3 Med Slots - 4 High Slots - 4 CPU Output - 250 Launcher hardpoints - 0 Turret hardpoints - 4 Structure Max Velocity - 170 Drone Capacity - 40 capacity - 600 m3 Required skills Primary Skill required: Gallente Cruiser I Spaceship Command III Gallente Frigate IV Spaceship Command I Not a bad ship for mining. No mining bonus, but a very nice cargo hold bonus. Combine that with some cheap cargo extenders and you can fit quite the bellyfull of ore without the need for a jetcan. Incidentally, you CAN fit 4 T2 mining lasers onto this ship. You will just need some coprocessors to help with the CPU load. Alternately, you can use the drone capacity to use mining drones, with meta 4 mining lasers. An all-round good mining cruiser. Continued below....
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:58:00 - [33] This space reserved...
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 16:58:00 - [34] This space reserved...
CogInTheWheel	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:01:00 - [35] no lo needo. plenty of logistics cruisers (t1 and t2) to choose from. no need to render another ship class obsolete.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:19:00 - [36] I support this idea. I think logistics frigates would be very useful.
Auron Shadowbane Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:47:00 - [37] wtf is wrong with eve and the forums lately that noone has yet flamed this tread... i mean did goonswarm left already or why are there no more jerks? on the topic: logistics frig is nice... salvaging would be more for an ore ship since there is no t2 non-ore ship that isnt dedicated to fight in some way or another.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:50:00 - [38] Edited by: Tarminic on 17/06/2008 17:50:37 You should make a formal post in the CSM forum about this. EDIT: Actually, I think I may do this. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Resamo	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:51:00 - [39] I thought there was some kind of ninja minning tech 2 frig planned for the distant future... i guess i was mistaken. a frig that got bonuses to minning mercoxite (sp?) i think but maybe i am remembering some old idea thread.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 17:58:00 - [40] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 17/06/2008 17:50:37 You should make a formal post in the CSM forum about this. EDIT: Actually, I think I may do this. If you do, please provide a link-back to this thread. I appreciate people getting the word out, but it would be nice to get the proper credit for the idea. Thanks!
Micheal Dietrich Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:04:00 - [41] I could use a T2 Bantam for the next corp Bantam Battle.
Rook Highwind Unnatural Growth	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:09:00 - [42] I really like this idea, though wouldn't a T2 Bantam just replace the Kitsune as the first frigate every damn pilot on the field aims for? Watching the alliance tournament, those things went down like very expensive chrome plated flies. They'd need a fair defensive boost IMO, fielding one just to get one cycle of support in wouldn't be worth it. ______________________________________
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Rook Highwind I really like this idea, though wouldn't a T2 Bantam just replace the Kitsune as the first frigate every damn pilot on the field aims for? Watching the alliance tournament, those things went down like very expensive chrome plated flies. They'd need a fair defensive boost IMO, fielding one just to get one cycle of support in wouldn't be worth it. Well, the base concept behind the idea of a Logistics frigate is the ship restrictions inherent in Factional Warfare. FW is specifically designed to restrict the gobs and gobs of BSes and larger ships that completely dominate 0.0 Alliance warfare. The reasoning behind this is that FW is aimed (in part) at new players. Players that won't be able to afford all the giant ships. So there are ship size restrictions. In accordance with this, I felt it wise to round-out the frigate capabilities list with a logistics frig. One that could be used to boost the more fragile e-war frigs and the stealth bombers. Imagine a fleet of Assault frigs, Inties, E-war frigs, SB's, Cov-ops and assorted other T1 frigates, all aided and backed-up by Logistics frigs. How incredible would that be?
Captain Organs	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:30:00 - [44] The only thing that I worry about is in the Alliance tournament. Oh dear god the stalemates...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:34:00 - [45] Edited by: Patch86 on 17/06/2008 18:34:37 Originally by: Bish Ounen Edited by: Bish Ounen on 17/06/2008 17:39:32 Oh, as far as the Dedicated Salvager, I would highly recommend the Destroyer be used for that role. With all those spare high-slots there's plenty of space for tractor beams and Salvagers. Yah, but there are already T2 Destroyers, filling the tackler role (of all things). Theres no reason a Frig salvager couldn't work. I mean how many hi-slots do you actually need. I'd say 4 were a minimum, enough for 2 salvagers and 2 tractors. Destroyers may have twice that many, but giving the ship a nifty bonus such as a 10% per level decrease in Salvager cycle time (that is, double quick salvaging at lvl 5) would allow 2 bonused salvagers to salvage as much as 4 normal ones. Making the ship naturally fast (being a frigate makes it well placed for this) would help to make up for the fewer tractors, by allowing it to travel from wreck to wreck faster. The Frigate's natural speed-based defences also make it far better than a slower hypothetical Destroyer when it comes to salvaging during a still-active battle, or getting your salvager in to hostile territory. A Destroyer T2 Salvager would certainly be "better", but its entirely possible to make a highly desirable Salvage ship out of a Frigate. ------ Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with killing Jesus is he always just respawns 3 days later anyways.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Captain Organs The only thing that I worry about is in the Alliance tournament. Oh dear god the stalemates... I dunno, even using Logistics cruisers plenty of Alliances went down. My own alliance did OK with Logistics cruisers and SB's, but lost to spider tanked BSes. If anything, this would make Alliance tournaments more interesting. More reason to use lots of little ships rather than just a couple big ones.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.06.17 18:39:00 - [47] Originally by: Bish Ounen Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 17/06/2008 17:50:37 You should make a formal post in the CSM forum about this. EDIT: Actually, I think I may do this. If you do, please provide a link-back to this thread. I appreciate people getting the word out, but it would be nice to get the proper credit for the idea. Thanks! Here ya go: I liked this thread in the OP. Linkage ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Madam Kaktar	Posted - 2008.06.17 19:18:00 - [48] Originally by: Patch86 Edited by: Patch86 on 17/06/2008 18:34:37 Originally by: Bish Ounen Edited by: Bish Ounen on 17/06/2008 17:39:32 Oh, as far as the Dedicated Salvager, I would highly recommend the Destroyer be used for that role. With all those spare high-slots there's plenty of space for tractor beams and Salvagers. Yah, but there are already T2 Destroyers, filling the tackler role (of all things). Theres no reason a Frig salvager couldn't work. I mean how many hi-slots do you actually need. I'd say 4 were a minimum, enough for 2 salvagers and 2 tractors. Destroyers may have twice that many, but giving the ship a nifty bonus such as a 10% per level decrease in Salvager cycle time (that is, double quick salvaging at lvl 5) would allow 2 bonused salvagers to salvage as much as 4 normal ones. Making the ship naturally fast (being a frigate makes it well placed for this) would help to make up for the fewer tractors, by allowing it to travel from wreck to wreck faster. The Frigate's natural speed-based defences also make it far better than a slower hypothetical Destroyer when it comes to salvaging during a still-active battle, or getting your salvager in to hostile territory. A Destroyer T2 Salvager would certainly be "better", but its entirely possible to make a highly desirable Salvage ship out of a Frigate. A salvager could easily be done with a t2 frigate. Give them 5 high slots and a new area of effect tractor module. I could support logistics frigates. But I would like to see something set them apart from standard logistics ships other than size.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.17 21:05:00 - [49] For those that have other fine ideas about what to do with the last T1 frigate, I would recommend that you go to either the Features and Ideas discussion, or the CSM Assembly discussion and start your own thread about them. They are fine ideas and deserve better than to be buried in this thread. Also, I'd rather not have my thread hijacked. This is a thread dedicated to the idea of turning the last T1 frigate into a T2 Mini-Logistics Frigate. Feel free to visit Tarminic's thread about this in the Assembly discussion as well and support the idea if you like it! Vote for Mini-Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Destovel	Posted - 2008.06.18 09:01:00 - [50] I'd love to see an anti-drone frig. That would make drone users have something to be afraid of cause smartbombs aren't used that much anymore. 20% tracking speed per t1 lvl 10% ROF 5% turret damage per t2 lvl something like that oooh oooh and make it vewwy vewwy fast!
Vincenzo Delloro Lux et Veritas	Posted - 2008.06.18 09:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Bish Ounen Edited by: Bish Ounen on 17/06/2008 17:39:32 Oh, as far as the Dedicated Salvager, I would highly recommend the Destroyer be used for that role. With all those spare high-slots there's plenty of space for tractor beams and Salvagers. It may be freakish and wrong of me, but my Salvageddon is probably the ship I have the most flight hours in out of any that I've owned. 2000+ m3 capacity (with extenders), virtually unlimited cap, space/CPU/power for 4 tractors+4 salvagers+MWD+extra slots for EW/Nanos/etc AND 125m3 drone bay. I could never go back to flying a salvage-dedicated destroyer after that.
Mithfindel Argent Group	Posted - 2008.06.18 10:41:00 - [52] Edited by: Mithfindel on 18/06/2008 10:42:04 A note on Salvage Ships: Personally, I could imagine seeing the T2 mining frigates as salvagers. When thinking about the ships, think about the role, not about the fittings. Destroyers have lots of high slots, so what? It's still supposed to fill them with guns, even when it has its job (antifrigate warfare) done better by other ships at the moment. A new ship (even when using the same hull model) doesn't need to have the same slot layout. By the logic of T2 = T1, but slightly better, the Amarr command ships for one should be just damage sponges (a la Prophecy). Just like the outcry on "what, we get tier 1 faction ships" for people who didn't even bother to read the dev blog (or know about the previously existing Navy Auguror). Mining Frigates -> Salvagers (say, tractor beam + salvager range/salvage chance bonuses?) Destroyers -> Assault/Mobile Command Ship (Agility, assault style resistances, perhaps Marauder-style guns plus an utility slot for Gang Assist mods, and limited on doing anything else). ...and life is good. Edit: And yeah, I've flown the Salvageddon, too. Eight low slot tank + drones against frigates + salvagers, supported by a gun BS killing larger targets.
Ordon Gundar Kingfisher Industries	Posted - 2008.06.18 10:50:00 - [53] There is already a "mini blockade runner"...its called a Sigil with a cloak in it, and its lows rammed with WCS, Intabs and Nanofibers! I think the logistics idea is great! Call it "tactical logistics" as opposed to fleet logistics, designed to assist the smaller gangs associated with FW. Fly fast..Rats Die..Buy Low..Sell High- Ordon Gundar, CEO of Gundars Independent Traders - Space (G.I.T.S)
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:34:00 - [54] Originally by: Ordon Gundar There is already a "mini blockade runner"...its called a Sigil with a cloak in it, and its lows rammed with WCS, Intabs and Nanofibers! I think the logistics idea is great! Call it "tactical logistics" as opposed to fleet logistics, designed to assist the smaller gangs associated with FW. Oooo! "Tactical Logistics". I LIKE that. Mind if I use that name in my idea? It's very sexeh. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Transmaniacon Strike-Force-Alpha	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:28:00 - [55] This is a great concept. With Factional Warfare going on, the need for certain roles can not be filled by the typical choices. A primary part of fleet warfare is logistics, and these new frigates would be a vital ingredient in a small scale fleet fight. I agree though, they would be primaried almost always, and so making them somewhat durable is needed. Though a few of these new frigs could likely spider rep each other and survive fine while their fleet kills the enemies targeting them. As it stands now, hardly anyone uses the small shield and armor transferring modules, and this would put them to great use. I dont think the tracking link and remote sensor boosting would be helpful however, as most cruiser-sized ships and below already target fine, and their weapons can track quite well. Remote energy transfer would be very helpful as many small ships can run their capacitors dry quite quickly. A mining frigate is a bit redundant and would not see much use at all. Cruisers outmine them, and the time it takes to get to a T2 frigate could place you in a mining barge. Overall great idea and addition to the game. The small scale combat in Eve has for a while not been utilized to much extent in fleet warfare, and with the introduction of Factional Warfare, these Tactical Logistics Frigates are quite necessary.
Quaxtl	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:53:00 - [56] Edited by: Quaxtl on 18/06/2008 18:53:21 To be honest I just dont see the point... If you ask me, I think the frigate should be turned into some sort of guerilla ship. Very cloak and dagger - that kind of thing. Think built in warp core stabs + better bombs + jump drive... Ok perhaps not, but something that would provide alternatives and counters to blob / POS warfare would be a welcome relief to EVE.
Bish Ounen Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.20 17:31:00 - [57] Originally by: Quaxtl Edited by: Quaxtl on 18/06/2008 18:53:21 To be honest I just dont see the point... If you ask me, I think the frigate should be turned into some sort of guerilla ship. Very cloak and dagger - that kind of thing. Think built in warp core stabs + better bombs + jump drive... Ok perhaps not, but something that would provide alternatives and counters to blob / POS warfare would be a welcome relief to EVE. We have that. Three of them, actually: Stealth Bombers Covert Ops Black Ops If you can't get the cloak and dagger crap done with those 3 ships, you aren't doing it right. No, FW needs Tactical Logistics frigs. We already have enough cloaking ships in the game. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Greenbolt Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.20 17:57:00 - [58] While I think this is a great idea....would we have to use the Bursts model for the Minmatar one? :( --------------------------------------------------- Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?

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