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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:05:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita
Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?
It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..
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Keeves
Minmatar
Sexy Pirate Club
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:31:00 -
[32]
Terrible idea. Why? Cause if an inexperienced player wants to get into FW but doesnt wanna be involved in wars then he shouldnt be in FW in the first place. I can say this because the day after our corp joined FW we were also pitched into 5 other corporate wars.
Take it as a learning experience because if you ever wanna head out to 0.0 you need to know how to handle yourself with the threat of hostiles pretty much anywhere anyways. Might as well learn when your new and in relatively cheap ships then few months down the road.
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Centra Spike
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.30 04:26:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita
Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?
It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..
Why would a "gallente greifer corp" join the Caldari Militia? That means they would be shot at in Gallente/Minmatar space and valid targets for those militias. It'd be easier for them not to join a militia at all and "greif" you that way.
Besides the Gallente corp would lose standings and be kicked out of the militia for shooting militia members... |
masternerdguy
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Posted - 2008.06.30 04:27:00 -
[34]
i think if you war dec a member corp of a faction, you war dec the entire faction automatically. |
Arlenna Molatov
Caldari
The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.06.30 05:32:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 30/06/2008 05:35:41
Originally by: Lucai
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 22:24:28
If you are in a "real" corp, you know that at any time, anyone can declare war on you for no reasons at all.
Why should that fundamentally change when you get involved in FW?
Were more or less talking about new players here, who do not want to be targetable by wars and still participate in FW.
For them, my advice was to join/stay in the NPC corps.
Being in a player corp = being targetable by empire wars. Thats EVE, always has been, if you like it or not, and discussing this would be a completely different topic.
Jucai, i would have to agree with you about player corps= can be wardecc'd. This should not change as it is how the rest of the game works.
What I see as the problem and really needs to be changed, is the aspect of being in a "corp" even though it is officially a NPC corp ( The Caldari State protectorate).
The Caldari State protectorate is one entity as a whole. Just as any corp is part of the alliance they are in. If you war-dec any corp in an alliance by default you have to decalre against the whole alliance. As it stands right now, it does not work this way with the FW NPC corps. You declare war against First Caldari Regiment, which is part of the bigger, Caldari State Protectorate( the alliance in the previous example). Therefor you should by default, be at war with the whole entity, JUST as you would be with any other PC alliance.
This is where corps like yours are taking advantage of the system as it currently is. Everyone who has said it is correct. As part of the CSP, if anyone fires on another CSP then they should be a legal target, period. They should ALSO be considered a target in High-sec Empire as, from a PURE RP perspective, you have declared war on an Empire entity. Like hell any Empire will grant you access to their space after pretty much declaring war on them or any arm of their Empire. Basic rules of corps and alliances is in effect. War dec= war dec'ing the whole entity, not just one part of it.
I am not saying this just because I am enlisted in FW, but this is logically how it should be, given the current rules for war as it stands in the game.
Yes, it gets a bit trickier dealing with the Empire Navies themselves but hey...if you declare war on a corp under the Caldari State Protectorate, by default, you have declared war on the CSP at the very least, if not The Caldari Empire itself.
As you have most thoughtfully brought up in your other posts. There are causes and effects to your actions. Star Fraction is no different. Declare war on an Empire entity, you just might find yourselves not being allowed in that Empires space. It was your choice.
This is of course, they way I personally think it should work, as it is the most logical process and fits RP to the core.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.06.30 05:41:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Todes
Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.
Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it
Jenny, is that you?
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.30 06:49:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Centra Spike
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita
Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?
It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..
Why would a "gallente greifer corp" join the Caldari Militia? That means they would be shot at in Gallente/Minmatar space and valid targets for those militias. It'd be easier for them not to join a militia at all and "greif" you that way.
Besides the Gallente corp would lose standings and be kicked out of the militia for shooting militia members...
Its already happening. And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it other than wardec their own milita
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Arlenna Molatov
Caldari
The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.06.30 07:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Originally by: Centra Spike
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita
Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?
It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..
Why would a "gallente greifer corp" join the Caldari Militia? That means they would be shot at in Gallente/Minmatar space and valid targets for those militias. It'd be easier for them not to join a militia at all and "greif" you that way.
Besides the Gallente corp would lose standings and be kicked out of the militia for shooting militia members...
Its already happening. And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it other than wardec their own milita
Might try reporting it as an exploit and see what happens |
Dihania
Gallente
Mucho Dolor
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Posted - 2008.06.30 08:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Todes
Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.
Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it
Wow.
Sorry, but how is a FW corp in any way different from a non FW corp ?
^. player run
^. player owned
^. own name / ticker to set it apart
^. taxes
^. organization
Bla bla etc.
How about all corps who want to escape wars join the FW and stay in empire high sec?
FW is not an alliance, nor an alliance like system. And I hope it will never be... becasue once it is like that, alliances will declare war on you, roll over low sec and crap on your "blobs".
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.30 08:13:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Lucai on 30/06/2008 08:13:46
Originally by: Arlenna Molatov
Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 30/06/2008 05:35:41
Jucai, i would have to agree with you about player corps= can be wardecc'd. This should not change as it is how the rest of the game works.
What I see as the problem and really needs to be changed, is the aspect of being in a "corp" even though it is officially a NPC corp ( The Caldari State protectorate).
The Caldari State protectorate is one entity as a whole. Just as any corp is part of the alliance they are in. If you war-dec any corp in an alliance by default you have to decalre against the whole alliance. As it stands right now, it does not work this way with the FW NPC corps. You declare war against First Caldari Regiment, which is part of the bigger, Caldari State Protectorate( the alliance in the previous example). Therefor you should by default, be at war with the whole entity, JUST as you would be with any other PC alliance.
This is where corps like yours are taking advantage of the system as it currently is. Everyone who has said it is correct. As part of the CSP, if anyone fires on another CSP then they should be a legal target, period. They should ALSO be considered a target in High-sec Empire as, from a PURE RP perspective, you have declared war on an Empire entity. Like hell any Empire will grant you access to their space after pretty much declaring war on them or any arm of their Empire. Basic rules of corps and alliances is in effect. War dec= war dec'ing the whole entity, not just one part of it.
I am not saying this just because I am enlisted in FW, but this is logically how it should be, given the current rules for war as it stands in the game.
Yes, it gets a bit trickier dealing with the Empire Navies themselves but hey...if you declare war on a corp under the Caldari State Protectorate, by default, you have declared war on the CSP at the very least, if not The Caldari Empire itself.
As you have most thoughtfully brought up in your other posts. There are causes and effects to your actions. Star Fraction is no different. Declare war on an Empire entity, you just might find yourselves not being allowed in that Empires space. It was your choice.
This is of course, they way I personally think it should work, as it is the most logical process and fits RP to the core.
Well put, but again, this is exactly what i would like it to be, and im imho no different from my corpmates there.
The problem is that while at the end of this devblog CCP say they are open for suggestions, i still have the feeling they are extremely reluctant to open FW up for Alliances for the reasons given there (what they would effectively do, if wardecs are on the whole militia)
I wouldnt agree with us taking advantage of the current system. We do the only thing viable for us, and its not the thing we would have wished for, but we, same as our targets, currently have to live with it.
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.06.30 10:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Dihania
Originally by: Todes
Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.
Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it
Wow.
Sorry, but how is a FW corp in any way different from a non FW corp ?
^. player run
^. player owned
^. own name / ticker to set it apart
^. taxes
^. organization
Bla bla etc.
How about all corps who want to escape wars join the FW and stay in empire high sec?
FW is not an alliance, nor an alliance like system. And I hope it will never be... becasue once it is like that, alliances will declare war on you, roll over low sec and crap on your "blobs".
hey smarty pants, how about corps in alliances wardecing each other while being in the same alliances?
The Same loophole exist and greifer corps have joined the state to kill state members under wardec. Its a loophole. You do not need to justify it.
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SSgt Sniper
Gallente
MAIDS
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Posted - 2008.06.30 11:24:00 -
[42]
Edited by: SSgt Sniper on 30/06/2008 11:27:14
Originally by: Lucai
In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.
Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.
So freaking true. Then again, Why not go one further: let the Militias be an alliance, sure, but let the Alliance that wish ALSO join the militia.
After all, Watching Red alliance fight with BoB for the Gallente then retiring home to shoot each other would be hilarious.
Also, this entire idea is bad, mmmkay?
However the little loophole that's been mentioned does need to be fixed. It's getting a wee bit ********.
-------
CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
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Fugly Man
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Posted - 2008.06.30 13:42:00 -
[43]
Wasnt it CCPs intention to keep Alliances out of FW? Surely alliances who war dec FW corps are getting around an intended function of FW.
The Various empires have called upon the Militia to boost thier armies in the Faction Wars, however many of the Militia that have joined cannot even sit behind thier own lines, or approach the front with the protection of thier own fellow Militia or Faction. That is broken
As for corps using FW to evade wars if FW corps cannot be war decced, Corps in FW are not 'safe' inside thier factions territory, as demonstrated by the recent camping of Jita by a Gallente Militia corp. They also cannot travel 'safely' outside thier own factions space.
The current mechanics are clearly set in favor of alliances/corps that war dec FW corps. It needs balancing
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Squably
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.06.30 14:26:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Todes
Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.
Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it
Really write stories using a spellcheck.
Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator |
Auron Shadowbane
Pelennor Swarm
Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.30 14:38:00 -
[45]
LREN OT PSLEL GDODAMN ONOB!!
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Jbobj
Minmatar
Federal Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.06.30 15:24:00 -
[46]
What about this.
If someone initiates an attack on you first, they become aggressed to just the people in your fleet that are ON GRID at the moment. This allows fleet memebers to protect each other if they are together, but still allows War Targets to hunt down stragglers, and you won't recieve any extra protection while being alone. The on grid requirement also prevents Milita corps baiting the people they are at war at while alone and killing them with help with other milita members. So it gives extra protection while they are grouped up, but doesn't give them any more power to hunt them down with.
What other abuses could occur from a system like above? I suppose -10's could use it to let their non -10 buddies keep their sec status up if careful, but I don't see anythign major. |
Balen Organa
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.06.30 15:36:00 -
[47]
I thought there were NPC FW corps.
Join one of them and you wont be wardecced seems simple.
I do however think if your in the militia and are attacked by a non militia member the respective militia should appear and help. |
Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.06.30 16:24:00 -
[48]
Why did CCP allow this? Militia corps should be concidered noob corps for the sake of game play....
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elfen
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Posted - 2008.06.30 16:42:00 -
[49]
Ok i have some first hand experience of this.......
I War decced a corp who were in FW , all was ok then they leave the FW.
The war then is classed as over under the Yulai thingy........
I could not understand this all they did was leave the FW all in the same corp?
So then i re War dec and guess what they then can rejoin the FW and the war is null and void again........
So to be honest any corp can join and leave the FW to avoid Wars...................
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Market AltLOLOLOLO
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Posted - 2008.07.01 09:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Balen Organa
I thought there were NPC FW corps.
Join one of them and you wont be wardecced seems simple.
I do however think if your in the militia and are attacked by a non militia member the respective militia should appear and help.
Hey smarty pants,
Can you wardec other members of your alliance? Seems stupid eh? Yet you have caldari milita corps wardecing caldari milita corps for greifing. Nobody can do anything vs greifer corps due to sec loss/corcord as well as caldari faction loss.
Yeah, gallente greifers join caldari milita and kill milita corps and caldari state kicks out anyone trying to kill gallente greifers. I mean, wtf logic is that?
Also, you cannot wardec 1 corp of a alliance. You have to wardec the entire alliance. Why is this different with the milita? It makes no sense at all
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.07.01 15:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO
Originally by: Balen Organa
I thought there were NPC FW corps.
Join one of them and you wont be wardecced seems simple.
I do however think if your in the militia and are attacked by a non militia member the respective militia should appear and help.
Hey smarty pants,
Can you wardec other members of your alliance? Seems stupid eh? Yet you have caldari milita corps wardecing caldari milita corps for greifing. Nobody can do anything vs greifer corps due to sec loss/corcord as well as caldari faction loss.
Yeah, gallente greifers join caldari milita and kill milita corps and caldari state kicks out anyone trying to kill gallente greifers. I mean, wtf logic is that?
Also, you cannot wardec 1 corp of a alliance. You have to wardec the entire alliance. Why is this different with the milita? It makes no sense at all
If you war dec anyone in any militia you should declare war on the entire militia, the faction and their allies.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.07.01 15:56:00 -
[52]
Simple answer to this GET ride of Corporations in the militia and just have pilots in the militia only! Problem solved! 
Trinity Corporate Services
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Kel'dar Drax
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: northwesten
Simple answer to this GET ride of Corporations in the militia and just have pilots in the militia only! Problem solved!
Agreed.
Star Fraction apparently have nothing better to do with their time than hang around Nourv looking for militia corp noobs to gank...
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northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:06:00 -
[54]
Edited by: northwesten on 01/07/2008 16:07:12
Originally by: Kel'dar Drax
Originally by: northwesten
Simple answer to this GET ride of Corporations in the militia and just have pilots in the militia only! Problem solved!
Agreed.
Star Fraction apparently have nothing better to do with their time than hang around Nourv looking for militia corp noobs to gank...
well i should of add but I dont see the point of allowing corporations to join! and Alliance wont. I really do think militia is enough to go in and fight!
Everyone under the same flag and form gangs/fleets and just hit out! There No advantage of having different corporations in the militia. If we need to split the militia up and have different regiments then CCP should make NPC regiment of 3-5 regiments and the Real RP can take lead and RP with out empire war decs from corporations or alliances.
Then you dont have to worry about the legal side of rules of Engagment. Just NPC wars as it just tend for!
Trinity Corporate Services
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Mirana Niranne
Federal Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.07.01 17:05:00 -
[55]
Simple solution:
If you are in a gang and a wartaget engages you, your wartarget goes flashy to everyone else in the gang. Gangmates can assist for the full 15 minute aggression timer.
If you are first to shoot that WT, they don't go flashy to the gang... basically works similar to how jet can aggression currently works.
No one gets wardec immunity. WT only goes flashy if they're the first to engage, gang no longer has to watch helplessly while members are shot up.
Phear the PHAIL |
Arlenna Molatov
Caldari
The 59th Parallel
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Posted - 2008.07.01 17:34:00 -
[56]
I made a topic in the game dev forums about solutions to tis. Game dev forum post
Please post here for official thoughts and solutions so the Dev team can have a concentraded list of the ideas. And lets hope they respond to it.
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Ayrianna Nagaya
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Posted - 2008.07.01 17:54:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lucai
First off youre not the only one unhappy with the situation. Entities like us, CVA, and others are essentially kept out of FW by the current system. Our options are very limited, resulting in the situation we have right now.
Concerning us being in "perfect safety" to pick targets out of your fleets, during the time i was online we are essentially talking about lowsec space. Using "perfect safety" is a bit far fetched there.
If you want to counter terrorism, you cant always play by the rules. Enough ships get killed every day in lowsec by pirates, anti-pirates and lots of people taking down targets of opportunity, all under fire from gate guns. If you dont want gate aggression, and criminal flags, thats your decision, but dont be surprised if, from your point of view, terroristic organisations exploit your stance on this.
If we were in perfect safety, it was cause your of unwillingness to do certain things to save or avenge your comrades. I do not deny that it would have hindered you quite a bit if you had aggressed us. But the choice still is yours. Do things that inconvenience you, or let your comrades die.
Plus there are ways to get involved and possibly save them without being criminally flagged.
It was your decision alone not to stop us, but to sit by idly.
All of the above is of course my personal opinion, for official statements please contact our diplomats.
I am sick an tired of a-holes like Star Fraction and CVA talking like "WAAAHHH we were left out of FW!!"
YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN AN ALLIANCE THEN! Alliances are for 0.0 territory wars. Star Fraction because of their crappy RP stance of "FREE CAPTAINS!" *high five* they dont do that. Fine I understand, BUT you should be in a single corp so you can dec corps cheaper and conduct empire wars cheaper. You guys got yourself into this situation.
I also think its cowardly of SF to dec one? maybe two? Caldari FW corps and pick them off as they try to organize with the rest of the NPC militia. Then the rest of the corp cannot help thier FW mates.
Thats like deccing one corp in an alliance and the rest of the alliance cannot shoot back at the aggressors while thier alliance mates getted picked off.
STAY OUT OF FACTIONAL WARFARE ALLIANCES!
If you want to roam low sec and take sec hits shootinig us then we will fight back effectivly and not have to take a sec hit defending our mates. All the allinaces in Tama doing that is fine. We can shoot at them if they shoot at us.
No wonder all the GOOD PvPers went to STIMULUS because all SF has is a bunch of exploiting wusses that take advantage of a system to grief.
You guys fight FCR and similer corps in HIGH SEC SPACE because you guys are COWARDS! Fight them in low sec so at least the other militia corps can shoot back.
Star Fraction wusses. |
northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.07.01 17:59:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a
Originally by: Lucai
First off youre not the only one unhappy with the situation. Entities like us, CVA, and others are essentially kept out of FW by the current system. Our options are very limited, resulting in the situation we have right now.
Concerning us being in "perfect safety" to pick targets out of your fleets, during the time i was online we are essentially talking about lowsec space. Using "perfect safety" is a bit far fetched there.
If you want to counter terrorism, you cant always play by the rules. Enough ships get killed every day in lowsec by pirates, anti-pirates and lots of people taking down targets of opportunity, all under fire from gate guns. If you dont want gate aggression, and criminal flags, thats your decision, but dont be surprised if, from your point of view, terroristic organisations exploit your stance on this.
If we were in perfect safety, it was cause your of unwillingness to do certain things to save or avenge your comrades. I do not deny that it would have hindered you quite a bit if you had aggressed us. But the choice still is yours. Do things that inconvenience you, or let your comrades die.
Plus there are ways to get involved and possibly save them without being criminally flagged.
It was your decision alone not to stop us, but to sit by idly.
All of the above is of course my personal opinion, for official statements please contact our diplomats.
I am sick an tired of a-holes like Star Fraction and CVA talking like "WAAAHHH we were left out of FW!!"
YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN AN ALLIANCE THEN! Alliances are for 0.0 territory wars. Star Fraction because of their crappy RP stance of "FREE CAPTAINS!" *high five* they dont do that. Fine I understand, BUT you should be in a single corp so you can dec corps cheaper and conduct empire wars cheaper. You guys got yourself into this situation.
I also think its cowardly of SF to dec one? maybe two? Caldari FW corps and pick them off as they try to organize with the rest of the NPC militia. Then the rest of the corp cannot help thier FW mates.
Thats like deccing one corp in an alliance and the rest of the alliance cannot shoot back at the aggressors while thier alliance mates getted picked off.
STAY OUT OF FACTIONAL WARFARE ALLIANCES!
If you want to roam low sec and take sec hits shootinig us then we will fight back effectivly and not have to take a sec hit defending our mates. All the allinaces in Tama doing that is fine. We can shoot at them if they shoot at us.
No wonder all the GOOD PvPers went to STIMULUS because all SF has is a bunch of exploiting wusses that take advantage of a system to grief.
You guys fight FCR and similer corps in HIGH SEC SPACE because you guys are COWARDS! Fight them in low sec so at least the other militia corps can shoot back.
Star Fraction wusses.
you fail at smack and fail on intelligence! please delete your account thanks
Trinity Corporate Services
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Ayrianna Nagaya
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:03:00 -
[59]
Originally by: northwesten
you fail at smack and fail on intelligence! Please delete your account thanks
And you fail and actually arguing anything I said with logic and you pyramid quote to boot. |
northwesten
Amarr
Trinity Corporate Services
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:05:00 -
[60]
Edited by: northwesten on 01/07/2008 18:06:11
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a
Originally by: northwesten
you fail at smack and fail on intelligence! Please delete your account thanks
And you fail and actually arguing anything I said with logic and you pyramid quote to boot.
Now your garbage of smack is not needed on this topic! you cant talk with out calling people names maybe you should walk away instead of acting like a angry little boy? By the way I just quoting you. So yer!
Trinity Corporate Services
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