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Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:15:00 - [271] Quote: One could counter than an actual Caldari Faction Militia member But Jade, you've spent the last 5 pages arguing that the corps you've war decced aren't caldari faction militia members at all, and thus you shouldn't have to face the NPC faction navy in caldari space. I know you want really hard to have it both ways here, but come on :D
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:19:00 - [272] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: masternerdguy militia is an alliance, the agro system should be same, wardec a corp in an alliance and the entire alliance is at war with you, We certainly wish that was the case Well Jade, let me ask you this one question then, IF alliances were allowed into FW, would you and any other alliance out there be willing to give up their rights to NOT enter Caldari space...or any faction space for that matter... again without being shot at by both FW folks AND the Any/all Empires themselves? Is everyone in your corp willing to give that up? Are you?
Arlenna Molatov Caldari The 59th Parallel	Posted - 2008.07.03 04:24:00 - [273] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ulstan An actual corp of anarchists would relish the chance to be at war with all four factions, branded as notorious outlaws and criminals from one end of the galaxy to the other, relentlessly hounded by the foul minions of the law in all but the most desolate trackless wastes of space. One could counter than an actual Caldari Faction Militia member wouldn't be weeping openly on the forums rather than defending his nation in space. Two can play the "your roleplay is wrong" card Ulstan. Ultimately this is a silly thread and its a silly issue. Its only fit for RP posturing at this point. Ahh.....the TRUE colors shine through at last! Now anyone who has an oppinion in this thread, minus anyone in SF, their thoughts and concerns don't mater in the least now. Well played Jade. You have MORE than made my point you deserve NO place on the CSM and have made that quite apparent to everyone here. ...You represent whom again? Not the majority. THAT we can all be assured of here and now.
Ayrianna Nagaya	Posted - 2008.07.03 05:20:00 - [274] Every single replay by Jade in EVERY post I see him in is just an example of his nose up in the air trying to sound elitist, "You are wrong and I am smarter then you and I have been elected CSM! Bow down to me as CLEARLY I am more powerful in the EVE community then you peons!" I can't beleive this crap. SF are a bunch of weak greifers. They wouldn't be able to handle the entire Caldari militia at once and they know it.
Spineker Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 05:26:00 - [275] Since I was censored for my comment against the all important and useless panel of elected offcials I will rephrase. Who Voted for this poorly knowledged person named Jade?
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 05:29:00 - [276] Originally by: Arlenna Molatov Ahh.....the TRUE colors shine through at last! Now anyone who has an oppinion in this thread, minus anyone in SF, their thoughts and concerns don't mater in the least now. Well played Jade. You have MORE than made my point you deserve NO place on the CSM and have made that quite apparent to everyone here. ...You represent whom again? Not the majority. THAT we can all be assured of here and now. Well said. That was nice.
Spineker Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 05:37:00 - [277] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ulstan An actual corp of anarchists would relish the chance to be at war with all four factions, branded as notorious outlaws and criminals from one end of the galaxy to the other, relentlessly hounded by the foul minions of the law in all but the most desolate trackless wastes of space. One could counter than an actual Caldari Faction Militia member wouldn't be weeping openly on the forums rather than defending his nation in space. Two can play the "your roleplay is wrong" card Ulstan. Ultimately this is a silly thread and its a silly issue. Its only fit for RP posturing at this point. the problem is you wait for fleets that have one or two people you are war decced against and then pop them. The entire fleet should be able to turn on you instantly and kill you. What kind of fleet would allow a few greifers to take out its members and not be able to retaliate. Its ******** and needs fixed. we were half a hair from popping you in Filet the other night and I would have been happy to take the hit for podding you. If there wasn't a Gallente fleet on the otherside of the gate you would have been a frozen corpse in one of our hangers. Not to mention your newbish smack talk in local.
Bertie Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 07:29:00 - [278] Originally by: Jade Constantine . We don't hire beaten dogs too afraid to fight. Ah ok. I take you back to my earlier point my valiant friend. Once SF see fit to take on a fairer fight I will salute you. Until then I question your right to lay your disdain upon others. [/IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/Denrace/bertieorange.gif[/IMG]
Tuberider Caldari Pothouse Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.03 09:53:00 - [279] Invicta have now joined in, using an alt corp to deck my FW corp. btw this aint a complaint its a bring it on guess we podded to many players with snakes so now we have FW corps using alt corps to deck apposing FW corps, so they can get to them in hostile space. anyone else see this as broken ? enjoy Your mother is a hampster and your father smells of elderberries
Lucai Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.03 10:14:00 - [280] Originally by: Bertie Originally by: Jade Constantine . We don't hire beaten dogs too afraid to fight. Ah ok. I take you back to my earlier point my valiant friend. Once SF see fit to take on a fairer fight I will salute you. Until then I question your right to lay your disdain upon others. Been there done, that. We took on entities more tham 10 times our size often enough to have no need to prove anything. If the rules get changed and the militias can be wardecced as a whole, the ratio will probably be 1:50 or even 1:100. Sounds like fun. Assymetric warfare is the thing that floats my boat. You do not consider yourself and comrades a fair fight? A pity, as I had hoped for some good fights, but you already start whining before the wardec even goes live.
Slave 775 Privateers	Posted - 2008.07.03 11:19:00 - [281] Edited by: Slave 775 on 03/07/2008 11:20:39 Seriously after seeing some of the post here the State Protectorate need to be renamed Stupid Protectorate. We are really lucky none of your wingers are games developers. you want the faction navy attack corps which wardecced you? Lets make a corp join the caldari milita and be 100% safe from wardec as long as you stick to caldari space. Don't need to go to lowsec to join the winger wars. you want the corp who wardecced you to be at war with the whole militia. Yes i want this one, i really want it. Because i will make a little corp, wardec a corp within the caldari militia and one in the gallente one. Thats the thing i always wanted, be pirate in lowsec and dont need to worry about security. Need to go to jita to buy things ? Lets switch off pirate mode. I hope this gets implemented lousy, because i see a way Major alliances can actually join FW. I look forward to see you guys whining here again about it. EVE ONLINE Adapt or die ? more like: go and whine on the ForumsÖ
Cead Lothian State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 13:09:00 - [282] Originally by: Lucai Edited by: Lucai on 03/07/2008 00:18:18 The bottom line being the current system is ok'ish Originally by: Jade Constantine The bottom line is you want controlled arena pvp where you get to fight in lowsec and get protected in highsec but sorry Eve is not the game you are looking for.... seems not everyone agrees with you! mocking jades foot in mouth moments aside.... Originally by: Lucai but very unsatisfying for all parties involved. Im very open to other solutions I think after how ever many pages this is one thing that both sides can agree on. Its in your best interest to play down the imbalance, and its in the militias interest to play it up, but the fact remains that neither side are going to enjoy themselves in the current state as it is. The argument that 'its not right as it is but the possible alternatives are much worse' isnt really reassuring to the players who are at a disadvantage because of the imbalance as it stands tho.
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 13:37:00 - [283] Originally by: Lucai You do not consider yourself and comrades a fair fight? A pity, as I had hoped for some good fights, but you already start whining before the wardec even goes live. I consider you and your comrades hiding in Gallente space part of the UNFAIR fight. Faction war has it's consequences for both sides of the war parties. You, my friends, seem to just want to abuse the power and not have to deal with the consequences we all do. As for numbers vs numbers, that's an irrelevant statement. We know from the past smaller groups will declare on larger groups for the sole purpose of griefing them with gank tactics. And if you think CCP will allow you dec our entire militia and STILL have the safety of Gallente space without the consequences of Caldari space, you are GREATLY mistaken.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 13:48:00 - [284] Originally by: Skyy As for numbers vs numbers, that's an irrelevant statement. We know from the past smaller groups will declare on larger groups for the sole purpose of griefing them with gank tactics. Grief? You might be playing the wrong game. Quote: And if you think CCP will allow you dec our entire militia and STILL have the safety of Gallente space without the consequences of Caldari space, you are GREATLY mistaken. They are unlikely to allow full wardecs towards the militia, but its also unlikely that they will change the wardecmechanics towards corps within the militia.
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 13:55:00 - [285] Edited by: Skyy on 03/07/2008 14:06:49 Edited by: Skyy on 03/07/2008 13:59:07 Edited by: Skyy on 03/07/2008 13:55:33 Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Skyy As for numbers vs numbers, that's an irrelevant statement. We know from the past smaller groups will declare on larger groups for the sole purpose of griefing them with gank tactics. Grief? You might be playing the wrong game. Let's not get into a debate about grief. But facts are small groups dec larger groups to have more targets, simple as that. They cloak, camp, and pick off solo pilots. If SF or anyone had the ability to do this to a militia, without the militia rules against them, it would be a sorry sight for this game. It defeats the purpose of having a faction war. You may as well drop all the rules and npc navies from faction warfare. EDIT: lets go back to what CCP originally stated... FW is not for alliances, they do not want it for alliances. They have 0.0 and way too much power to be a part of militias. As it is now, alliance can pick out the largest militia corps, declare war on them, and have a huge effect on FW... while not having to deal with FW rules. That's a broken game if you ask me, and CCP will likely find a fix.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:05:00 - [286] Originally by: Skyy Let's not get into a debate about grief. But facts are small groups dec larger groups to have more targets, simple as that. They cloak, camp, and pick off solo pilots. If SF or anyone had the ability to do this to a militia, without the militia rules against them, it would be a sorry sight for this game. It defeats the purpose of having a faction war. You may as well drop all the rules and npc navies from faction warfare. Nobody is asking for that. A reasonable quid-pro-quo to the ability to declare (for free/nominal fee) against the Faction Militia as a whole would be to be placed under the same restrictions as enemy militias currently work under. If Star Fraction could wardec the whole Caldari Militia we'd be happy to do it. And be chased by Caldari NPC assets in Caldari Hisec while the dec was active. That would be entirely fair enough and place us in the same boat as enemy factions currently occupy. Where this debate has gone south is the FW militia blowhards from this thread would like to radically tilt the defense balance in their favour by having Caldari Hisec denied to any single corp that declares on any single corp in the militia and that is simply ridiculous. Militia is not an alliance and doesn't work like an alliance - if it did you'd have a point since one single wardec would catch everyone. But it doesn't work that way and is unlikely ever to work that way. And you need to raise your eyes from the short-sighted issue to look at the consequences of what you are proposing. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:08:00 - [287] Originally by: Skyy EDIT: lets go back to what CCP originally stated... FW is not for alliances, they do not want it for alliances. They have 0.0 and way too much power to be a part of alliances. As it is now, alliance can pick out the largest militia corps, declare war on them, and have a huge effect on FW... while not having to deal with FW rules. That's a broken game if you ask me, and CCP will likely find a fix. Then leave your corp and join the militia as a soloplayer. The likely fix that ccp would come with is to not allow corps to join the militia.
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:14:00 - [288] Edited by: Skyy on 03/07/2008 14:19:18 Edited by: Skyy on 03/07/2008 14:14:25 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Skyy Let's not get into a debate about grief. But facts are small groups dec larger groups to have more targets, simple as that. They cloak, camp, and pick off solo pilots. If SF or anyone had the ability to do this to a militia, without the militia rules against them, it would be a sorry sight for this game. It defeats the purpose of having a faction war. You may as well drop all the rules and npc navies from faction warfare. Nobody is asking for that. A reasonable quid-pro-quo to the ability to declare (for free/nominal fee) against the Faction Militia as a whole would be to be placed under the same restrictions as enemy militias currently work under. If Star Fraction could wardec the whole Caldari Militia we'd be happy to do it. And be chased by Caldari NPC assets in Caldari Hisec while the dec was active. That would be entirely fair enough and place us in the same boat as enemy factions currently occupy. What I'm proposing is to have the current situation the same, adding in the fact that you would have to deal with all the faction war rules. simple as that. You just agreed that you would be willing to do so IF you could declare on an ENTIRE militia. As much as I would sorta agree with that as an acceptable outcome, it let's alliances get involved. FW is not the place for alliances. Period. The mechanics of it now are broken, and to have alliances dec militias would break the game even more. Alliaces are too vast, and standings would be an issue. Does SF have a 0.5 with Gallente? Or do you just want to avoid that rule, declare war, and abuse the entire concept of FW? EDIT: my last word, as I need to get to work... Why don't you conform to the rules, disband your alliance, form a corp, get your standings to 0.5 to your desired militia and join one. Easy as that. We all did it.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:27:00 - [289] Quote: Lets make a corp join the caldari milita and be nearly 100% safe from wardec as long as you stick to caldari space. ??? Where did you get the idea that you are 100% safe from the enemy militia in hi sec space? Haven't you been paying attention to the repeated caldari incursions through Villore, and the Gallente militia camping Jita?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:28:00 - [290] Originally by: Skyy What I'm proposing is to have the current situation the same, adding in the fact that you would have to deal with all the faction war rules. simple as that. You just agreed that you would be willing to do so IF you could declare on an ENTIRE militia. As much as I would sorta agree with that as an acceptable outcome, it let's alliances get involved. FW is not the place for alliances. Period. Then its not quid pro quo. It would be utterly unbalanced to have a single corp forced to wardec single corps in the Militia (pay the dec) AND be hunted by faction npcs in that militia's hisec. Thats ridiculous and is simply a proposal for war-dec avoidance on the part of Militia members and it will lead to ANY corporation that gets wardecced opting to join a militia just to make it more difficult for declaring corps. Your proposal is a simple nerf on empire wardecs and it is not acceptable to me (but by all means try it as an ISSUE on the assembly hall and lets see what others think). Quote: The mechanics of it now are broken, The mechanics right now are not broken. They are working exactly how ccp intended and we have quotes from the developer on the subject directly in this thread and I am telling you right now I sat across from those guys in Iceland and discussed this issue in the CSM meetings. This is how they wanted it to work. There is one significant change on the table at the moment thats whether corporations in alliances will get to join Militias without having to leave their alliances. Quote: and to have alliances dec militias would break the game even more. Maybe so. But that is what you have to offer on the table if you want incoming wardecs to be part of hisec faction npc response. If somebody wardeccing a Militia (or corp in militia) is going to get excluded by that area of hisec and treated like an enemy militia they MUST be given the same target choice and opportunity as an enemy Militia. Its very simple. Quote: Alliances are too vast, and standings would be an issue. Does SF have a 0.5 with Gallente? Or do you just want to avoid that rule, declare war, and abuse the entire concept of FW? Yes we have .5 with gallente, we have .5 with Caldari, we have point .5 with Minmatar etc etc. But thats not the point. We'd want to declare AGAINST a militia and would be happy to deal with faction npc response in the appropriate hisec. We'd get the same target list as an enemy militia would and suffer the time penalties in enemy hisec. Thats a fair proposal - but I can see why its not likely to happen because while SF is a small alliance that won't impact things too much in the long run any rules that let us get involved on those terms could be used by much larger alliances. And lets lose the rhetoric and "griefing and abusing" the FW concept please. Its the stuff has turned this thread south from the first page. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:38:00 - [291] Originally by: Jade It would be utterly unbalanced to have a single corp forced to wardec single corps No ones forcing you to wardec single corps in the militia. You freely chose to do that. You can also freely choose to join the militia of your choice and get free permanent war decs against everyone in that militia.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:44:00 - [292] Originally by: Ulstan Originally by: Jade It would be utterly unbalanced to have a single corp forced to wardec single corps No ones forcing you to wardec single corps in the militia. You freely chose to do that. You can also freely choose to join the militia of your choice and get free permanent war decs against everyone in that militia. Similarly noone is forcing you to join a corp that leaves you open to wardecs.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.03 14:51:00 - [293] You must have confused me with someone who is complaining about militia corps getting war decced, when I'm actually someone who enjoys tweaking Jade on the inconsistency and self serving nature of his positions.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 15:16:00 - [294] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 03/07/2008 15:16:25 Originally by: Ulstan Originally by: Jade It would be utterly unbalanced to have a single corp forced to wardec single corps No ones forcing you to wardec single corps in the militia. You freely chose to do that. You can also freely choose to join the militia of your choice and get free permanent war decs against everyone in that militia. Originally by: Jade Constantine It would be utterly unbalanced to have a single corp forced to wardec single corps in the Militia (pay the dec) AND be hunted by faction npcs in that militia's hisec. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kel'dar Drax	Posted - 2008.07.03 15:19:00 - [295] I have a solution... Goons should announce a 'Jihadswarm' against Star Fraction and wardec them. This would: 1. Permit Goons to shoot expensive stuff in Empire with no security hit. 2. Put a spanner in SF's nefarious works. 3. Humiliate Jade - probably the most insufferably arrogant pilot currently playing eve, (which is saying something). What do you say Goonies...you up for it?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 15:26:00 - [296] Originally by: Kel'dar Drax I have a solution... Goons should announce a 'Jihadswarm' against Star Fraction and wardec them. This would: 1. Permit Goons to shoot expensive stuff in Empire with no security hit. 2. Put a spanner in SF's nefarious works. 3. Humiliate Jade - probably the most insufferably arrogant pilot currently playing eve, (which is saying something). What do you say Goonies...you up for it? We wish. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
isdisco3 Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.07.03 16:12:00 - [297] If you allow people to wardec entire FW alliances, you allow larger entities with more knowledge to come in and basically destroy the pvp experience of the younger players who are enjoying it, depriving the game of its future backbone of pvp'ers. Make no mistake about it, FW as implemented right now is intended to be (and is successful in being) palatable for younger players. It is a simple game mechanic (get in a gang, warp to the square beacon) that requires little knowledge to get into the action. Allowing FW-alliance-wide wardecs will have someone who knows what they're doing to steamroll the FW alliance, ruin the fun of the newer players experiencing and learning eve PVP, and deprive us of future pvp'ers and future subscriptions. Unfortunately, this means that silly situations like SF being able to gank 1/4 of a fleet in highsec with concord protection will happen. If you don't like being ganked, then join the NPC corp. There are many other ways of handling leadership than forming a private corp. And to end with a story, for 8 months I lived as -10 in lowsec. Many a time one of our gang would get engaged at a gate by an enemy gang, and the rest of us (due to small shipsize) would be unable to assist him in his fight because we would get sentry fire for it. What you're talking about (probably unintentionally) is a change in the game mechanics of aggression, not a FW-specific change.
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 16:46:00 - [298] Originally by: Jade Constantine We'd want to declare AGAINST a militia and would be happy to deal with faction npc response in the appropriate hisec. We'd get the same target list as an enemy militia would and suffer the time penalties in enemy hisec. Thats a fair proposal Okay, so you want your little alliance to declare against a militia? You claim the system is not broken, but you want a change to enable alliances to fight FW. Yes, it is broken then. This whole thread is about what is wrong with FW, not what is right. You can't have the best of both worlds. I suggest if you want to fight a militia so bad, that you do so in a corp or join one of the many npc militias. You're in your own world where your think you deserve something more. Why are you so in love with SF that you can't revamp it into a corp? Alliances are far too large, far to mixed, and having them join or declare war brings more problems than solving them. Not just problems to FW, but problems to every member of an alliance that doesn't have a say in which faction they want. If you're looking for a compromise. I think CCP already found it. It's where we are at right now. Do what you have to do to partake in FW, but don't whine anymore when you have the same mechanics to join a militia as the rest of us. You need to realize the game mechanics are there for YOU too.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:25:00 - [299] Originally by: Skyy Originally by: Jade Constantine We'd want to declare AGAINST a militia and would be happy to deal with faction npc response in the appropriate hisec. We'd get the same target list as an enemy militia would and suffer the time penalties in enemy hisec. Thats a fair proposal Okay, so you want your little alliance to declare against a militia? You claim the system is not broken, but you want a change to enable alliances to fight FW. Yes, it is broken then. This whole thread is about what is wrong with FW, not what is right. You can't have the best of both worlds. I suggest if you want to fight a militia so bad, that you do so in a corp or join one of the many npc militias. You're in your own world where your think you deserve something more. Why are you so in love with SF that you can't revamp it into a corp? Alliances are far too large, far to mixed, and having them join or declare war brings more problems than solving them. Not just problems to FW, but problems to every member of an alliance that doesn't have a say in which faction they want. If you're looking for a compromise. I think CCP already found it. It's where we are at right now. Do what you have to do to partake in FW, but don't whine anymore when you have the same mechanics to join a militia as the rest of us. You need to realize the game mechanics are there for YOU too. Nothing you just said makes any sense at all. Fortunately we do have some decent changes on the horizon which should allow alliance corps to associate with Militias without leaving their alliances (allowing Ushra'khan, CVA and others to involve themselves) and then the situation will be fine. And as I've said elsewhere I'd also support allowing Miltia corps to get free buyin to wars declared against their militia allies. Ultimately Skyy the only whining on this thread has come from Caldari Militia blowhards who don't like the fact they aren't immune to wardecs. I suggest you leave the rhetoric to others and get into your spaceship and fight. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Skyy Caldari Sigillum Militum Xpisti	Posted - 2008.07.03 17:49:00 - [300] Originally by: Jade Constantine Ultimately Skyy the only whining on this thread has come from Caldari Militia blowhards who don't like the fact they aren't immune to wardecs. Bottom line is FW is broken... you want change... others want change. But then you contradict yourself saying its not broken. I don't care about the outcome, but at least I can sit here and admit there's a current problem. The fact you can't do that is quite amusing, maybe it has to do with the fact YOU are abusing the current problem. It's not about militia whiners afraid to pvp... please, go try your egotrip spins elsewhere. How about we all just let you debate this issue alone? Get real... the opinions of everyone here matter. You can try and place Caldari on the front page, but until other militia corps deal with this, you have no right. Finally, grow up... name calling and faction bashing is no place for the chair of CSM.

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