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Erenis Takthor
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:06:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Lucai
Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 22:24:28
If you are in a "real" corp, you know that at any time, anyone can declare war on you for no reasons at all.
Why should that fundamentally change when you get involved in FW?
Were more or less talking about new players here, who do not want to be targetable by wars and still participate in FW.
For them, my advice was to join/stay in the NPC corps.
Being in a player corp = being targetable by empire wars. Thats EVE, always has been, if you like it or not, and discussing this would be a completely different topic.
Yes, there are many reasons to declare war on a (random) corp. However, what you are doing is using (or even exploiting) this gameplay mechanic to take part in FW as an alliance. CCP did not decide to make this new feature unavailable for alliances for no reasons.
And yes, you could say "X is allowed to wardec Y for all possibke reasons, but, as per quote of your corporate EO, you are wardeccing the players to fight the factions, thus taking part in FW. This is like he only reason why one shouldnt be able to war dec a certain corp in the game.
And while you might have 5 years experience in pvp, there are others who don't have that. There are a LOT of new players (or even more experienced ones) trying there hand at pvp through FW. The militia is just not the right place to start. A smaller corporation (dedicated to FW or not) is easier to organize, and thus will result in a better atmosphere to learn PVP in, and gives people a chance to participate in PVP through FW. This is why FW was built into the game, as a semi-secure environment for new and old players to (try) pvp. I am not against war decs, if a militia corp ****es you off, then give them what they diserve. However, ganking (new) players who want to try a (new (for them)) aspect of the game, only because you want to "hurt" a NPC faction is not the way to go. If you consider yourself a bit of an experienced alliance I suggest that you move on to fight some people of your own caliber.
This is not only intended for the star fraction, but for any alliance/corp, RP or not, who wants to participate in FW. If you really want to do so, make a corp, join a militia, and be prepared to face a whole fleet of players, not only some of them. Take the drawbacks of FW.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:34:00 -
[62]
I think the major problem here is one of unequal risk/reward for being involved in FW at a corp level. Let's look at this with a simple ascii chart:
Player Corp <wardec> Player Corp = Kill rights both ways
Player Corp <wardec> Player corp within Player Alliance = P.Corp <wardec> P. Alliance = Kill rights both ways.
P.Alliance <wardec> P. Corp = Kill rights both ways
P. Alliance <wardec> P. Alliance = Kill rights both ways
P. Corp in P. Alliance <wardec> P. Corp within SAME P. Alliance = No action, not possible.
P. Alliance OR P. Corp <wardec> NPC Corp = No action, not possible.
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Ok, this is the basic Pre-Factional Warfare (Pre-FW) situation. We all good so far? this all make sense? Good.
Now, let's add the following to the above list as the FW addition:
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P. Alliance OR P. Corp <wardec> NPC Alliance = no action, not possible.
P. Alliance OR P. Corp <wardec> P. Corp within NPC Alliance = Kill rights both ways, but does NOT extend outside P. Corp within NPC Alliance. So other NPC Alliance players cannot assist, unlike in a P. Alliance.
P. Corp within NPC Alliance <wardec> other P. Corp within SAME NPC Alliance = Kill rights between those two corps. Kill rights do not extend outside those two corps.
P. Corp within NPC Alliance <wardec> P. Corp in opposing NPC Alliance = Kill rights both ways on top of existing kill rights for being in the NPC FW Alliance = silly, but possible.
P. Corp within NPC Alliance <wardec> P. Corp or P. Alliance = ?? I don't know. Is this even possible?
----
As you can see, the confusing situation we have now, since joining a FW Alliance as a corp has a VERY different and more complicated ruleset than simply joining as a player. Not only does this invite griefing (The aforementioned corp vs corp in same alliance mess) But it makes it MUCH more difficult to parse who is at war with whom and who can fight with whom.
My suggestion: Simplify the whole mess with one of two options:
1) If you join FW as a corp you give up the ability to wardec anyone, but are also un-wardeccable by anyone other than other FW Alliances.
2) Alternately, make the cost escalations applied to alliance level wardecs apply to the FW Alliances, and make the wardec spread across the alliance.
Either way, it should NEVER be possible for intra-mural wardecs within FW Alliances. That's just moronic, and I cannot believe that one slipped by CCP. Shame shame.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Jianna Aino
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:36:00 -
[63]
Think of it like this:
Militia is corp 1.
Your corp is corp 2.
war dec corp is corp 3.
Corp 3 wardecs corp 2, not corp 1. So Why should corp 1 get kill rights on corp 3 if corp 3 made an agreement with big scary concord people of doom just to kill corp 2.
You're effectively in 2 seperate corporations.
Where is the problem?
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:39:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jianna Aino
Think of it like this:
Militia is corp 1.
Your corp is corp 2.
war dec corp is corp 3.
Corp 3 wardecs corp 2, not corp 1. So Why should corp 1 get kill rights on corp 3 if corp 3 made an agreement with big scary concord people of doom just to kill corp 2.
You're effectively in 2 seperate corporations.
Where is the problem?
Because a miltia is an ALLIANCE, NOT A CORP. THAT is where the problem lies. a Corp cannot join a Corp. A corp can ONLY join an ALLIANCE. Since it is possible for a Player corp to join a Factional Warfare Militia, that militia is BY DEFINITION an Alliance, and Alliance rules should apply.
The problem is they are NOT applying and it's damn confusing.
not to mention the intra-mural wardecs thing borders on game mechanic abuse.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Jianna Aino
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:44:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Jianna Aino on 01/07/2008 18:45:32
Edited by: Jianna Aino on 01/07/2008 18:44:27
No a militia is a militia not an alliance.
"The term militia is commonly used today to refer to a military force composed of ordinarycitizens to provide defense, emergency law enforcement, or paramilitary service, in times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a fixed term of service." --Good old wikipedia.
It's you signing up to the militia to fight the big scary Caldari state. It's not you signing up to mutual protection in the militia from your enemies, just the Gallente feddys enemies. You volunteered to fight the caldari. There was no "If you join us you're safe" clause in the sign up contract was there?
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Centra Spike
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:45:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
1) If you join FW as a corp you give up the ability to wardec anyone, but are also un-wardeccable by anyone other than other FW Alliances.
So you want a player corp in a militia to be able to dec anyone but be immune from everyone else except their enemy militias? Get real.
You join a player corp and you open yourself up to war decs. You stay in an NPC corp and you are immune to war decs. That's how it works.
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Erenis Takthor
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:50:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jianna Aino
Think of it like this:
Militia is corp 1.
Your corp is corp 2.
war dec corp is corp 3.
Corp 3 wardecs corp 2, not corp 1. So Why should corp 1 get kill rights on corp 3 if corp 3 made an agreement with big scary concord people of doom just to kill corp 2.
You're effectively in 2 seperate corporations.
Where is the problem?
The problem is not the war dec, its the reason why... People should still be able to fight a corp if they did something wrong to you. However, joining a militia should not be a valid reason to do so. This is a form of griefing, as these corps join FW to try pvp in a semi-secure environment and for the purpose of FW itself, this environment should be preserved, within the gameplay aspect of FW. Corps can still be wardecced for several reasons, only FW cant be one of them, since you are attacking the players for the purpose of attacking the alliance (in this case the faction) thus you participate in FW without drawbacks. You are war deccing (several) corp(s) to engage in FW, without having to face the militia as one. You can simply pick some targets, while they are REALLY participating in FW.
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Jianna Aino
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:51:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jianna Aino on 01/07/2008 18:53:43
Edited by: Jianna Aino on 01/07/2008 18:52:39
Edited by: Jianna Aino on 01/07/2008 18:51:55
Originally by: Erenis Takthor
You can simply pick some targets
Sounds safer fighting 5 guys than 50 doesn't it :D.
Besides as most factional warfare takes place in low sec anyway,whats the harm in a little security loss, eh? Most people who do FW have enough of it...
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Drykor
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.01 18:56:00 -
[69]
All the nonsense about FW being pvp training grounds aside, if you want to fight back then wardec the agressor. You really can't have the cake and eat it, if you don't want to get ganked by alliances like Goonswarm then it's also logical you can't fight back with the whole militia when an individual FW corp is wardecced. Trust me I'd love to be able to wardec the entire factions and many of us do, but admittedly it would be kinda harsh if alliances with 1000+ members got involved here. And they would, if this was an option.
There's still the option of wardeccing us back though. Then you can protect your buddies. Or is this too expensive for you? Hell we're paying the price, so can you.
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Ulstan
Caldari
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:04:00 -
[70]
While it may seem kind of harsh to have your corp singled out and wardecced without other militia being able to help you, that situation is far preferable to the one where all the 0.0 alliances would be wardeccing the militias in their entirety for the 10,000 new to pvP nub pilots to shoot at consequence free.
If your militia corp gets wardecced you can fight back, get more people to join your corp, or leave and join the militia NPC corp.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:05:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 01/07/2008 19:06:10
Originally by: Centra Spike
Originally by: Bish Ounen
1) If you join FW as a corp you give up the ability to wardec anyone, but are also un-wardeccable by anyone other than other FW Alliances.
So you want a player corp in a militia to be able to dec anyone but be immune from everyone else except their enemy militias? Get real.
You join a player corp and you open yourself up to war decs. You stay in an NPC corp and you are immune to war decs. That's how it works.
Ok, Reading comprehension dude. That's not even CLOSE to what I said. I mean, the quote is there in your own post! DUH! 
I also suggest you read the SECOND of my two suggestions, and then get real yourself.
P. Corps that join FW Alliances give up alot compared to P. Alliances. The biggest being the protection of their fellow Alliance members.
If all of EVE worked the way FW did, then you could wardec a single corp in a Player Alliance, and the other Alliance members would be unable to help out. Stupid, isn't it? Yet THAT is how it works in a FW Alliance. Why would ANY corp want to be part of that? It's like setting yourself up to be a target!
Don't forget either that wardec costs against a corp in a FW Alliance DO NOT SCALE like they do with a wardec against a Player Alliance. So you can wardec a corp in a FW Alliance "On the cheap" as it were. It puts P. Corps involved in FW at a distinct disadvantage, and allows RP P. Alliances to exploit the system by attacking individual player corps in the enemy FW Alliance.
Nowhere else in the wardec system is this type of thing allowed, and for good reason. If it was allowed there would be little point in HAVING Alliances, as the main benefit of an Alliance is mutual protection. What is the point in allowing Player Corps to join the FW Alliances if they aren't afforded the same benefit? It's unbalanced risk/reward and stupid.
And don't even THINK about suggesting that Intra-mural wardecs are ANYTHING but exploitative. When you can join the enemy and attack them from within with NO CHANCE of reprisal, that is exploitation, pure and simple.
How some people aren't seeing this is beyond me, unless they have a stake in maintaining the imbalance.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Erenis Takthor
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:24:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Drykor
All the nonsense about FW being pvp training grounds aside, if you want to fight back then wardec the agressor. You really can't have the cake and eat it, if you don't want to get ganked by alliances like Goonswarm then it's also logical you can't fight back with the whole militia when an individual FW corp is wardecced. Trust me I'd love to be able to wardec the entire factions and many of us do, but admittedly it would be kinda harsh if alliances with 1000+ members got involved here. And they would, if this was an option.
There's still the option of wardeccing us back though. Then you can protect your buddies. Or is this too expensive for you? Hell we're paying the price, so can you.
Then why do you have to meddle in our affairs, you are ruining FW for several groups of players, with your argument being that the factions keep space for their own, not for individual players, while they offer all players an equal oppurtunity to use it. You would be better off fighting worthy big 0.0 alliances who keep their space for themselves. I can understand the perspective of CVA and other RP alliances, but instead of meddling as an alliance, they create alt corps an JOIN the militias or do low sec raids prepared to take the penalty. Some people just dont understand that FW doesnt have to be like 0.0 .... And as for the newer player aspect, I know that this opportunity to joining PVP in a militia equals to joining a 0.0 or lowsec or even hisec corp to start PVPing, however FW was intended to make pvp more accessible, and yes I have seen a lot of newer players participating in it.
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Centra Spike
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:26:00 -
[73]
My mistake, I did misread your post. But the heart of the matter is that if you join a player corp, you are open to war decs.
If you just want to do FW you can stay in the NPC militia and be immune from war decs outside of FW. If you want to be in a player corp then you take the mechanics that go with being in a player corp, good and bad.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Centra Spike
My mistake, I did misread your post. But the heart of the matter is that if you join a player corp, you are open to war decs.
If you just want to do FW you can stay in the NPC militia and be immune from war decs outside of FW. If you want to be in a player corp then you take the mechanics that go with being in a player corp, good and bad.
So what you are saying is that if Star Fraction can't join FW as an Alliance, then NOBODY can as a corp? Because that is what Star Fraction is doing. Denial of Service against Corps that have decided to join a FW Alliance via wardecs.
You display either willful ignorance of the horrific imbalance imposed upon Player corps that join FW, or intentional deceptiveness about you and your Alliance's intentions.
You know you can wardec a FW P. Corp "on the cheap" due to the fact that you are only paying to dec the corp, not the Alliance they are in.
You know that the corp cannot fight back effectively since they cannot depend on Alliance mates.
You know that the corp cannot "evade" your wardec unless they want to give up FW and join a P. Alliance.
So you are trying to affect Factional Warfare without actually doing WHAT THE DEVS HAVE SAID YOU NEED TO DO, and disband your Alliance and join as individuals or corps. You are using a loophole in the rules to negatively affect the outcome of a game mechanic in order to DENY the enjoyment of said mechanic to other players who ARE following the rules.
In other words, you are EXPLOITING AND SHOULD BE BANNED along with the rest of Star Fraction.
It's really that simple.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Van Cleef
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:47:00 -
[75]
If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.
------------------------------------------------
CEO and Admiral of the Fleet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Serve the State
Join Channel CAINCOM |
Ayrianna Nagaya
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:26:00 -
[76]
Bish is 100% correct. SF are exploiting the system to fit their stupid RP. Or maybe because they have hurt feelings that FW wasnt made for them. Jade must have seen this as a senior member of SF right? If so and he willingly still went on with it he should be booted from CSM. He obviously does not have the community at interest.
Val Cleef has a good idea. Make it so that if you start killing 10 or 20 FW corp members, you become KOS to the faction navy and cant hang out in high sec griefing them anymore without having the Navy on your ass. |
Nitalya
Amarr
Das Reich.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:46:00 -
[77]
sounds to me like star faction needs to practive what they preach (disband your alliance and join a faction militia) and stop exploiting the militia war dec system to get some easy kills. if you as me its a cowardly lame greifing tactic from a fairly unsucsesfull alliance. but if war decing single corps in the militia and picking off lone members of defencless gans with there own gang makes them feel better about themself who are we to say they cant untill ccp come up with a decent solution to the problem....
i suggest a fairly simple fix... corps are not allowed to join faction militia with active wars, once in militia they are imune from wardec. but here is the thing you must mantian a MIN victory points or kills as a corp to be able to keep your status as a militia. this should get rid of corps trying to hide in militas and keep people like star faction from exploiting the sytem.
just my 2 cents flame all you want
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:49:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Van Cleef
If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.
Indeed, I would go even further than that.
If CCP isn't going to remove P.Corps from the wardec system entirely when they join a FW Alliance, then the penalty for wardeccing a FW Alliance P. Corp needs to be IMMENSE. Something along the lines of 10X the cost to wardec a P. Alliance, and you wardec NOT JUST the P. Corp, but the entire FW Alliance AND the EMPIRE the FW Alliance fights for. Thusly your Alliance standings to that Empire during the wardec period are -10.
Basically if CCP isn't going to STOP Alliances like Star Fraction from DOSing FW from the outside, they need to make it as blindingly painful as possible to do it.
Basically disrupt all their Empire operations in the Empire Faction they wardecced. Make it expensive in manpower, in ships, and in ISK. Expensive beyond all sanity. So stupidly expensive that even BOB wouldn't attempt it. In other words, not practically possible within the bounds of the game.
Or they could just remove P. Corps that join a FW Alliance from the wardec system entirely. No wardecs going out, none coming in. Only Factional Warfare.
Seems to me that would be the simpler method.
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Nitalya
Amarr
Das Reich.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:58:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
So you are trying to affect Factional Warfare without actually doing WHAT THE DEVS HAVE SAID YOU NEED TO DO, and disband your Alliance and join as individuals or corps. You are using a loophole in the rules to negatively affect the outcome of a game mechanic in order to DENY the enjoyment of said mechanic to other players who ARE following the rules.
In other words, you are EXPLOITING AND SHOULD BE BANNED along with the rest of Star Fraction.
It's really that simple.
you hit the nail on the head.... im truly suprized it took this long for some hack alliance to pull a stunt like this.
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Bish Ounen
Gallente
Omni-Core Freedom Fighters
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.01 21:07:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Bish Ounen on 01/07/2008 21:07:27
Originally by: Nitalya
you hit the nail on the head.... im truly suprized it took this long for some hack alliance to pull a stunt like this.
Thanks.
Honestly, I'm not sure that this point if Star Fraction is simply pulling a stunt like I-Mune in order to point out a problem, or if they are genuinely trying to break Factional Warfare because they can't be part of it AS Star Fraction. (Like the kid smashing the toy his parents are trying to force him to share. "If I can't have it, nobody can have it!")
Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
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Cassius Longinus
Osmoden Planetside Health and Spa
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Posted - 2008.07.01 21:19:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Bish Ounen
In other words, you are EXPLOITING AND SHOULD BE BANNED
omg hax ban!
Aside from that silliness, I think you have good points... I really like the idea of moving faction standings based on your aggression towards faction militia's, but we need more robust mechanics for operating with reduced faction standings (perhaps sliding scale docking fee's, or mixing up stations (perhaps Lai Dai would be less sensitive to low faction standings than Caldari Navy)).
Fundamentally, the design of FW seems to really favor an "all or nothing" approach to participation, and while SF are looking at ways of working around that (as I'm sure other RP alliance entities are), I don't think they will be happy with the results unless the dev's come up with some better way to normalize factions and alliances.
The "cheap kills" comment from whoever is downright laughable though. SF and other RP entities are very excited about FW, and its just hard to figure out how to figure out the "anarchists engagement strategy".
pax. |
Kelsin
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.01 21:41:00 -
[82]
It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.
To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?
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Nitalya
Amarr
Das Reich.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 22:14:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kelsin
It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.
To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?
and you can always disband your alliance and join the militia like ccp originaly intended.
i do agree that it sucks for RP alliance and ccp realy gave them the shaft on the issue. but lets face it ccp created this form of faction warfare for the people that want to get into pvp and not have to deal with player plitics or 0.0 alliances.
have you thought about forming a mega corp with all your alliance mates joining into one corp or disbanding your formal alliance and joining your chosen milita still keeping your alliance in tact in all but its name.
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Ayrianna Nagaya
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Posted - 2008.07.01 22:21:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kelsin
It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.
To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?
disband your alliance and join FW.
CCP won't cater to your "we shoot everybody! We are anarchists" playstyle.
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.01 22:53:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a
Originally by: Kelsin
It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.
To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?
disband your alliance and join FW.
CCP won't cater to your "we shoot everybody! We are anarchists" playstyle.
This is coming from someone in a NPC corp who suffers the CCP protection of war decs. And despite the protection you tell others to disband their alliance.
CCP has talked about FW for as long as anyone can remember. And while CCP says everyone roleplays and gives people another avenue with FW to continue a developing storyline while seeding lowsec with pvp. Being that this is the first iteration of their plan which was stated we don't know what is coming up. Your best bet is to get a dev response on what their plan is with interactions to alliances. They actually responded. People worried that militias would be a safe haven for corps to avoid war decs.
Factional warfare has been very interesting getting people in fleets of racial ships in numbers unlike other roleplay groups have not been able to achieve. On top of that they have taken parts of lowsec and filled them at the expense of pirates. To say factional warfare is only for noobs is terribly innacurate. Corporations are filled with experienced and new players alike. And some of the seemingly new players are new accounts (yet another boon to CCP), or alts trying it out with experienced players behind them.
Some groups have roleplay identities well known that have difficulties adapting to the framework laid forth at the moment. Groups like CVA, Ushra'Kahn, and The Star Fraction amongst them. All of them have contributed great amounts to the enjoyment to the game and furthered the roleplay aspect of well before factional warfare came out. It seems silly to tell these establashed groups you don't fit our plan and so you can't play. But they still left corps being able to be war decced. And this is the crux of the OP.
You have heard SF pilots say go ahead let us war dec militias, among other things. We are open to change. We are also going to continue advancing our goals. Disbanding our alliance doesn't exactly serve a purpose to be a threat to empires if you have to join them does it? To say practice what you preach is also inane when you don't seem to care for knowing what SF stands for or think abou it with much thought. We did not support a faction for the past two tournaments. Nothing has changed. Could their be change in the future. Who knows. But don't be presumptious to tell others what to do and mislabel people.
We don't shoot everyone. We are NRDS. We shoot people who shoot us and ideological enemies like the empires.
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Nitalya
Amarr
Das Reich.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 23:10:00 -
[86]
im not going waist a page quoteing kovid. ccp had dedicated many regions more than HALF of eve to Alliance warefare. you claim you want to be a "threat to empires" then why not go out into 0.0 and pick a fair fight? that is allowed by current game mechanics. your members can say let us wardec milita behind the safty of knowing that current game mechanics wont allow it. face it your cowards that would rather war dec a single corp than fight a real allaince that can back up its members in all of there corps.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.01 23:24:00 -
[87]
I think allowing FW as whole to shoot back would be bad. Also it would be bad for alliance to shoot the FW as a whole because they are at war w/ one corp enlisted in FW
I think the best solution would be:
A) leave things as they are, tough tittties
B) Corp joins FW. All active wars are canceled after 24hours (shoot only that corp ok for 24hours).
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of all the things I've lost,
I miss my mind the most |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.02 00:20:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 02/07/2008 00:23:51
Interesting thread, couple of observations:
Faction Warfare was always going to be a problem for Eve in some ways. The notion of allowing player characters to join an organization that protected them from unwanted wars (while giving them access to a controlled FW war) is a challenge to EveÆs essential sandbox nature. Since the beginning of the game itÆs been accepted wisdom that when you leave the NPC corp and join your first corporation you become a potential target to anyone who might wish to wardec and engage you. This is something that did get flagged up as an issue when the initial plans and designs were unveiled for faction warfare.
Still current FW participants do have several options û they can join the Militia npc entity where they are protected from wardecs. If they are finding their player corporation outmatched by an incoming wardec they can recruit, seek allies, hire mercenaries, fly cheap ships, even surrender and leave the militia entirely if the fight is too hard for them.
What IÆm reading in this thread is basically that some people have brought a corporation into a Militia to serve as a command and control role (presumably because they see advantage in being a corporation rather than simply a collection of common militia members) but that advantage comes with the risk that people might chose to wardec it as a way of fighting against the overall Militia interests in that region of space.
IÆm not going go too much into the motivations of SF here. But anyone who has followed our roleplay and history in Eve canÆt be that surprised that weÆre out there shooting nationalist militia members in the head every night surely. Star Fraction is a in-game anarcho-capitalist revolutionary movement opposing the 4 empires and believing that capsule pilots should be independent agents not mere puppets of the states. This current program of selective wardecs against FW command and control corporations fits our modus operandi and past intentions like a glove. WeÆre 140 pilots engaging an entity of 7000+ pilots by performing terror strikes against the leadership that paralyze the big blobs in Black Rise and make our message plain.
ôNationalism is regressiveö
As to what the targeted corps can do about, itÆs the conundrum that all eve corps have faced since 2003.
1. Get friends, organize, fight back. And its easier now since you have 7000 potential friends in that FW militia entity.
2. Enlarge your corp, recruit fighters.
3. Encourage other corps in your militia to counter wardec the aggressors.
4. Have a whip-round and hire mercenaries to wardec your enemies.
5. Hell, get the other Militia entities to follow your fleets around with logistics ships and keep your vessels immortal.
Or.
Surrender. Leave the Militia, run away and regrow your corp somewhere else and come back when you feel improved and capable.
These are all valid options.
All of them involve playing the game weÆve been given. At the moment Star Fraction is operating under the restriction that we cannot formally wardec the FW militias. We respond to that restriction by wardeccing individual high profile command and control corps and allowing our in-game ideology to manifest in bright acts of revolutionary violence and high profile battlefield assassination.
WeÆre playing Eve. Best suggestion is you guys do the same.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Ayrianna Nagaya
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Posted - 2008.07.02 01:15:00 -
[89]
Except you are only shooting one Caldari corp. Dec them ALL then if you have any balls! OMG is it too expensive? Then disband your alliance and dec them as one large corp. SF isn't that big anyway.
and for the person that said I'm in an NPC corp... no
I'm an alt you noob. You can't tell?
Jade I don't care about the one corp you decced. They CAN just leave and go into the NPC Militia corp. I am angry that SF thinks they should be respected for greifing a corp that is trying to
a) organize with the NPC Militia in Nourv to engage in a game mechanic that was intended to work as such. Shooting in low sec. Then they get picked off one by one because of SF greifing them.
and
b) cannot get any help (logistics? yeah then they get killed as they get WT aggro for repping them) from thier Militia mates.
You are exploiting an oversight in the game mechanics. It is like deccing one corp in an alliance. Grow a pair and take them all full force. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.07.02 01:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a
Except you are only shooting one Caldari corp. Dec them ALL then if you have any balls! OMG is it too expensive? Then disband your alliance and dec them as one large corp. SF isn't that big anyway.
We are happy working with the existing mechanics. And we're generally running 3 simultaneous wardecs. Nothing is stopping those targets working together. And of course any other FW miltitia corps could wardec us.
Quote:
Jade I don't care about the one corp you decced. They CAN just leave and go into the NPC Militia corp. I am angry that SF thinks they should be respected for greifing a corp that is trying to
Pvp isn't Griefing and we didn't ask for your respect.
Quote:
a) organize with the NPC Militia in Nourv to engage in a game mechanic that was intended to work as such. Shooting in low sec. Then they get picked off one by one because of SF greifing them.
As I said above nothing is stopping you helping these guys if you feel strongly about it. Get into a ship and go help them.
Quote:
b) cannot get any help (logistics? yeah then they get killed as they get WT aggro for repping them) from thier Militia mates.
Give them ships. Join up perhaps. RR gangs. We're a small alliance, you have 7000 potential allies. Use them. Raise some money and hire mercenaries. Do something, anything, rather than complain on the forums that an RP anarchist corp is assassinating the command and control functions of a Nationalist Militia.
Quote:
You are exploiting an oversight in the game mechanics. It is like deccing one corp in an alliance. Grow a pair and take them all full force.
It is no oversight in the mechanics. People perceive there is an advantage to being in a corp as opposed to being rank and file militia. Well that advantage comes with a price-tag - in this case vulnerability to wardec. If you don't like this situation do something about it. In space.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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