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Ecky Ptang First Caldari Regiment	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:15:00 - [121] As it is at the moment, it seems a corp in a militia gets all the drawbacks without any advantages towards hostile actions from player corps. They are restricted in space and dont have an alliance to back them up, sometimes when just starting out a lot of "noob" playerbase to. Then there is the hostile alliance with experienced players, an alliance with solid income and badass ships, unrestricted in space. My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:21:00 - [122] Originally by: nVChicky But there are other corps that are not in FW that would still be able to be wardec'd, atm the only people who are getting exploited are those in FW. The only problem I see with stopping it is that corp's who dont wish to be wardec'd join FW - but then they still cannot enter opposing FW space and can be attacked by opposing Militias - was this not the idea of the expansion......... Oh, yes and those who dont wish to participate in FW feel left out, aww bless, why not just continue to wardec those who also aren't participating in FW and play your own game....... not really! in corp wise at all! why should they not get war dec because there in a corp in a Militia? I mean I getting sick of this BS calling this exploit when there NOTHING wrong with the system. If they want to join the FW then join the Militia not the corp. I mean how simple this? If a corp is joining FW then you get dec like anyone else all you getting to join the FW more targets. If people cant handle this then leave FW as a corp and join the Militia? Leave the system as it is! moronic whiner cant think for them self and want things easy all the time. So what is the corp war dec you? I mean more targets? DEAL with it FFS or go back to veld. I really really cant see the problem in this. Think about it if they cant war dec a corp in the Militia then everyone will join it to try and avoid wars. Trinity Corporate Services
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:21:00 - [123] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:25:37 Originally by: Ecky Ptang ...Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? ... Yes, you would, but for the last time, you dont have a saying in the matter, CONCORD has your hands bound. With corps inside the same militia wardecing each other your solution is already in place btw, shooting them should inflict a standing loss, see the Guide. Why should a FW corp get more protection from wardecs than e.g. a mining corp of 5 people, all less than 2 weeks old? If at all they should require less, as they apparantly want to participate in PVP.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:23:00 - [124] Quote: If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own. Wait, what, this doesn't happen? It absolutely should. It was my understanding it already worked this way. People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc)
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:26:00 - [125] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own. Wait, what, this doesn't happen? It absolutely should. It was my understanding it already worked this way. People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc) that I do support! and take standing lose Trinity Corporate Services
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:27:00 - [126] my list of possible solutions: 1) make the militia a formal alliance (therefore wardecs once voted would apply to all in that militia) 2) Stop Player Corps being allowed to be formed in FW and create more NPC FW Corps (Would stop the possibility of wardecs and shrink the size of NPC Corps) 3) Not allow WarDecs to Player Corporations in the FW (Would allow players to continue in FW but may create exploits) 4) have no NPC corps in FW and allow alliances (would mean Player Corps in the militia could easily choose if they wished t aid their commrades)
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:30:00 - [127] Quote: My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now. Hmmm, another post seeming to indicate people war deccing militia corps are not getting attacked by those militia's NPC navies nor suffering standings losses. Can anyone confirm this is indeed the case? I disagree whole heartedly with the idea what militia corps should be immune to war decs (No place in EVE is totally safe) but I also agree entirely that people who do war dec militia corps must be considered 'at war' with that militia's faction (actions have consequences) and be attacked by the faction navies and suffer any appropriate standings losses. SF should definitely enthusiastically be behind this idea, as they've always wanted to 'be at war' with the main factions. Now they could war dec a militia corp from each faction and be shoot on sight in all 4 empires, which should warm their anarchist little hearts. Jade, use your position on CSM and get on this one!
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:30:00 - [128] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:35:04 Originally by: Ulstan Quote: If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own. Wait, what, this doesn't happen? It absolutely should. It was my understanding it already worked this way. People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc) Great idea again So if i have a corp owning space in 0.0, i will enlist with one militia, and "war or not" anyone shooting me will lose standings. It would at least require some measure if the corp just joined for "protection" or if they actively fight for the empire. People being kicked out of the militia if they dont pull their weight or something.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:34:00 - [129] Originally by: northwesten I really really cant see the problem in this. Think about it if they cant war dec a corp in the Militia then everyone will join it to try and avoid wars. I really feel that you are happy with the system as it suits you, it does not however make good gameplay for those in FW. Yes if War Dec's were stopped for FW Corps people would join to try and avoid wars but they will have just entered into a bigger war, won't be able to enter opposing faction high sec and will have quite a few more enemies!
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:39:00 - [130] Quote: So if i have a corp owning space in 0.0, i will enlist with one militia, and "war or not" anyone shooting me will lose standings. Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you. I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses.
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:41:00 - [131] Agreed if your not in FW and you war dec a FW Corp your not with us your against us and should take a standing hit
Market AltLOLOLOLO	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:42:00 - [132] Originally by: nVChicky Originally by: northwesten I really really cant see the problem in this. Think about it if they cant war dec a corp in the Militia then everyone will join it to try and avoid wars. I really feel that you are happy with the system as it suits you, it does not however make good gameplay for those in FW. Yes if War Dec's were stopped for FW Corps people would join to try and avoid wars but they will have just entered into a bigger war, won't be able to enter opposing faction high sec and will have quite a few more enemies! I dont think anyone joins FW to dodge wardecs.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:42:00 - [133] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now. Hmmm, another post seeming to indicate people war deccing militia corps are not getting attacked by those militia's NPC navies nor suffering standings losses. Can anyone confirm this is indeed the case? I disagree whole heartedly with the idea what militia corps should be immune to war decs (No place in EVE is totally safe) but I also agree entirely that people who do war dec militia corps must be considered 'at war' with that militia's faction (actions have consequences) and be attacked by the faction navies and suffer any appropriate standings losses. SF should definitely enthusiastically be behind this idea, as they've always wanted to 'be at war' with the main factions. Now they could war dec a militia corp from each faction and be shoot on sight in all 4 empires, which should warm their anarchist little hearts. Jade, use your position on CSM and get on this one! I'm actually against it as the current mechanics stand. And the reason for is this: I don't believe that corporations in a FW militia should get any more protection from wardecs and player consequence than a starting non-FW corp should. And if you follow the logical consequence of this suggestion -> ie corps fighting FW corps lose faction standing then they will eventually be in the same boat as enemy militias (ie constantly attacked by faction navy) WITHOUT the benefit of free concord wardecs against the whole militia entity and all associated corps. This isn't reasonable, and its also not a good thing for Eve Online to have the militias change in focus from being an entity one joins to engage in PVP to being an entity one joins to avoiding PVP. Star Fraction vs Caldari Command Corps is a bad example in this context. Lets say I'm the CEO of Friendly Fun Corp Inferno We're an industrial trading outfit and we've just been corp thefted and suicided ganked and generally smack-talked in Jita by Twilight Disco Ninjas . We declare war on our nemesis. This is Eve. Maybe we win, maybe we lose, but we're doing our own enforcement. At the moment there is nowhere the Twilight Disco Ninjas can go in empire to escape our vengeance. But if you had this negative standings penalty thing for the militia - then the Twilight Disco Ninjas could just join the Caldari Militia and if we continued attacking them eventually we'd be hounded by faction navy in Caldari space and lose our ability to trade in Jita as well as having the decks stacked against us in every fight. + Also, any mercs we wanted to hire against the Twilight Disco Ninjas would be similarly afflicted, they'd lose standings fighting these guys that would penalize them for future merc work. Joining the other militia? Not an option for alliances at the moment and still has the default problem that it makes caldari space home ground advantage for this bunch of ninja scum who don't care two hoots about faction warfare but just want to hide from the consequences of their actions on the corp vs corp stage. You do need to think these things through properly. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:45:00 - [134] Originally by: nVChicky my list of possible solutions: 1) make the militia a formal alliance (therefore wardecs once voted would apply to all in that militia) Bad idea because whats the point of having Fraction ware then? May as well remove it and go back to the old way. Fraction Warefare for RP not just free for all. Originally by: nVChicky my list of possible solutions: 2) Stop Player Corps being allowed to be formed in FW and create more NPC FW Corps (Would stop the possibility of wardecs and shrink the size of NPC Corps) Why not just not have corporation in the FW altogether? Then it be like NPC corps but with wars and not have to worrie about Non-FW corp decing you. Other wise deal with it. Originally by: nVChicky my list of possible solutions: 3) Not allow WarDecs to Player Corporations in the FW (Would allow players to continue in FW but may create exploits) As in not letting non FW corp dec FW corps? Yer half the eve pop soon join up to avoid war from other corps. So there for be unfair to the rest of non FW corps. Originally by: nVChicky my list of possible solutions: (4) have no NPC corps in FW and allow alliances (would mean Player Corps in the militia could easily choose if they wished t aid their commrades) So then scrap the FW altogether then? I see you put real thought into this May as well join CVA and go back to the old way then of RP? I mean you going to degrade the FW what its ment for. Not all for PVP is it? Bottom line is Non FW corp should be allowed to dec FW corps but If they do then that's the FW corp problem. Tho if a NON FW corp dec a corp then they dec the fraction. Other wise leave it as it is. I mean why turn a militia into a alliance? Trinity Corporate Services
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:45:00 - [135] Originally by: Jade Constantine Joining the other militia? Not an option for alliances at the moment and still has the default problem that it makes caldari space home ground advantage for this bunch of ninja scum who don't care two hoots about faction warfare but just want to hide from the consequences of their actions on the corp vs corp stage. You do need to think these things through properly. I Agree, an alliance should be able to join FW, and FW Player Corps should be able to create Alliances - I think here lies the main problem.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:46:00 - [136] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:53:57 Originally by: Ulstan Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you. I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses. The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem. Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?* Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits. * direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:52:00 - [137] Originally by: Ecky Ptang As it is at the moment, it seems a corp in a militia gets all the drawbacks without any advantages towards hostile actions from player corps. They are restricted in space and dont have an alliance to back them up, sometimes when just starting out a lot of "noob" playerbase to. Then there is the hostile alliance with experienced players, an alliance with solid income and badass ships, unrestricted in space. Well your "advantage" in having a corp is: A: corp channel B: corp hangers C: corp roles and admin D: corp reputation and name E: corp tax rate F: corp mail G: corp ability to wardec etc etc etc. If you don't care about all that stuff you should simply stay in the militia as a default foot soldier. The disadvantage is that you can be wardecced. Ultimately its up to your leaders to decide if this disadvantage is outweighed by the advantages of the corp entity. They need to make a decision on whether to keep the corp or not. But this is gameplay - not arguing for changes that protect you from wardecs and player consequence. Quote: My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now. Its a bad suggestion as I explain in the post above. It will make the miltias into an "anti-wardec" shell of use to anyone wishing to make it more difficult for other players to take matters into their own hands and conclude feuds and vendettas and all the good stuff that makes Eve - Eve. A much better idea: which was something we touched upon in the Iceland CSM meeting was to make "buy-in" on 3rd party wars much easier. I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:52:00 - [138] gets a cuppa tea Just taken a step back from this. I getting heated about it tho a good debate I do love tho :) Anyone for a good cuppa? Trinity Corporate Services
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:56:00 - [139] Originally by: Jade Constantine I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online. Jade I LOVE YOU!!! Come sit in my head for a while you'll have lots of fun! Again I agree the main problem with war dec's and FW is the inability for support from other FW Corps.
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:57:00 - [140] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 14:57:44 Originally by: Jade Constantine I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online. Now that sounds like a useful and relatively easy to implement solution. You would still have members of the militia NPC corp being left out from helping, but there the problem of the absence of a governing body to make decisions is hard to fix. So i still like the idea a lot
Rachael Malace	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:57:00 - [141] Wouldn't a simple solution be: Gang members share all kill rights of all members in the gang including Wardec kill rights and all gang members accept all kill rights placed on all members in the gang. So that this isn't exploited the dynamic exchange of kill rights could be managed with warnings when joining a gang or inviting someone to a gang. In this way if a mixed roaming gang (FW or not) is engaged by war-targets pertaining only to a subset of the fleet, the whole gang could engage. A more conservative solution: Aggressing to a member of a fleet (WarDec or not) makes you red to the fleet.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:57:00 - [142] Originally by: Khyle Originally by: Ulstan Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you. I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses. The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem. Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?* Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits. * direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions At the moment I do not believe they do. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:58:00 - [143] Edited by: nVChicky on 02/07/2008 14:59:35 Originally by: Rachael Malace Wouldn't a simple solution be: Gang members share all kill rights of all members in the gang including Wardec kill rights and all gang members accept all kill rights placed on all members in the gang. So that this isn't exploited the dynamic exchange of kill rights could be managed with warnings when joining a gang or inviting someone to a gang. In this way if a mixed roaming gang (FW or not) is engaged by war-targets pertaining only to a subset of the fleet, the whole gang could engage. A more conservative solution: Aggressing to a member of a fleet (WarDec or not) makes you red to the fleet. That used to be how it worked before the patch came in..........well you were an eligble wt for those your fleet members were at war with
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 14:59:00 - [144] Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Khyle ...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ... At the moment I do not believe they do. Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho. Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...?
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:02:00 - [145] Quote: I don't believe that corporations in a FW militia should get ANY more protection from wardecs and player consequence than a starting non-FW corp should. Jade, that's complete nonsense. A corp in the caldari militia cannot come after you in gallente hi sec space if you war dec them. Therefore, to keep things remotely equal, you should not be able to come after them in caldari hi sec space. FW corps have signed up for a specific faction, with all the disadvantages and advantages that provides. People shouldn't be able to wardec them from outside the militias and simply bypass the whole FW bit. I am completely fine with people wardeccing corps in the militia - but when they do so, they simply ought to be considered at war with that factions navies. (and associated standings hits, etc) Anything else is not only highly immersion breaking and ridiculous from an RP point of view (which you as a member of SF should care about) but imbalanced (which we should all care about).
nVChicky	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:08:00 - [146] Originally by: Khyle Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Khyle ...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ... At the moment I do not believe they do. Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho. Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...? As far as I can tell reading from my logs you DO get a hit for fighting NPC militia when capping but you don't when when engaging players from opposing militia Corps example: Kill mail >2008.06.23 22:21:00 Victim: Kingeal Corp: Invicta. Alliance: NONE Faction: Gallente Federation but no corresponding Faction Standing hit
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:11:00 - [147] I agree. If you declare war on a faction corp, you should be bound by the same rules as the opposing faction at war. As in, the navy attacking you in high sec. Simple and reasonable. In no way should a corp or alliance declare war on a another corp that has to follow rules of faction war, and yet you have no rules. You declare on a Caldari faction you, you get safe space in Gallente regions? Ummm, no, that is flawed and broken. Jade, you are wrong... and quite naive. --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:15:00 - [148] Originally by: Ulstan Jade, that's complete nonsense. A corp in the caldari militia cannot come after you in gallente hi sec space if you war dec them. Therefore, to keep things remotely equal, you should not be able to come after them in caldari hi sec space. You are arguing for specific standings losses that have a lasting effect on players ability to move in empire space. But the reality is that your hypothetical corp in the Caldari Militia is NOT taking standings hits for shooting other players period. And COULD if it wished to leave the Caldari Miltia, wardec whom it chooses, even join the Gallente, Minmatar or Amarr miltias the next day to play the field from the other side. You cannot argue for equivalence on this basis. Quote: FW corps have signed up for a specific faction, with all the disadvantages and advantages that provides. People shouldn't be able to wardec them from outside the militias and simply bypass the whole FW bit. Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. Its a hellova lot of free wardecs and no lasting consequence should they wish to leave at any time they choose. I completely oppose any principle that would allow corporations to make themselves un-wardecable is the bottom line. I think there is a huge problem with the Militia npc corp itself being un-wardecable but thats another story. Faction Warfare is designed to be meaningful pvp in empire and a way of allowing nationalists to contest low-sec systems. Its not designed to be a war-dec avoidance mechanic to protect entities from the consequences of their non FW actions. Quote: I am completely fine with people wardeccing corps in the militia - but when they do so, they simply ought to be considered at war with that factions navies. (and associated standings hits, etc) Consider my example above with a corporation using the Milita as a wardec avoidance exploit. Also consider that at the present time you don't suffer standings losses for firing on player ships in enemy factions. It sounds like your want your cake and eat it Ulstan and the argument doesn't hold water. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Khyle Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:16:00 - [149] Many thanks at nVChicky! Makes sense, sort of. If a newbie fights in a militia for a few weeks, he shouldnt have huge negative standings, probably for the rest of his time in eve. And if the empires "forgive you" fighting against "them" inside hostile militias, why should it be different for people fighting their militia without belonging to a hostile one. Admittedly the whole thing doesnt make so much sense RP wise, but from a game design perspective it does i guess.
Ulstan Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.07.02 15:18:00 - [150] Originally by: "Jade" Lets say I'm the CEO of Friendly Fun Corp Inferno We're an industrial trading outfit and we've just been corp thefted and suicided ganked and generally smack-talked in Jita by Twilight Disco Ninjas . We declare war on our nemesis. This is Eve. Maybe we win, maybe we lose, but we're doing our own enforcement. At the moment there is nowhere the Twilight Disco Ninjas can go in empire to escape our vengeance, our retrofitted trading ships will burn them with holy fire of vendetta! But if you had this negative standings penalty thing for the militia - then the Twilight Disco Ninjas could just join the Caldari Militia and if we continued attacking them eventually we'd be hounded by faction navy in Caldari space and lose our ability to trade in Jita as well as having the decks stacked against us in every fight. First of all, easy semi-fix: just say corps at war can't join the militia. Secondly, Twilight Disco corp would have to have positive standings to caldari militia. Thirdly, the situation you described would be one of complete parity: you can't attack twilight disco ninjas in caldari space, they can't attack you in gallente space. The current situation is not one of parity. Imagine that your friendly fun loving corp had joined the gallente militia. Now imagine that the twilight disco ninjas are attacking you, but whenever you in gallente hi sec space and attacking your assets, miners, etc. However, when you try to launch a counter attack, they flee back to caldari space, which you cannot enter without getting a faction navy on you. Moreover, all their assets and logistics and miners are there as well. You are at a severe disadvantage and they are not. Treating them as though they were at war with the gallente federation would put you both on a level playing field. This is simply a much more fair method of doing things than the one you describe.

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