Originally by: Todes

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they have no place that they can consider safe.

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Originally by: Rhanna Khurin

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It is just one of the risks that are corps have if a FW player doesn't want to get attacked by non-militia forces then don't join a militia corp, just fight with the relevant factional militia force.

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Originally by: Xercies Ravere

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Ok you were a bit hard to read but i think I got the general statement. Wardecs agains Player corps in Militia should go ahead, otherwise people could exploit a system where you are in the militia you are immune to war decs. So I think if they had that system every corp would go into militia to stop them selves being war deced. Anyway being war deced means there are more targets

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.

E.G Playercorp is running a 20 man gang of milita. 3 of the 20 are under wardec. FC watches his gang get kileld in highsec and the rest of gang cannot help otherwise be concorded in high sec, or lose sec rating in low sec.

This is the problem. Alliances can freely pick people to wardec so they are 100% immune from rest milita gang thought the eve universe.

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Quote:

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If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Originally by: Xercies Ravere

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Ok you were a bit hard to read but i think I got the general statement. Wardecs agains Player corps in Militia should go ahead, otherwise people could exploit a system where you are in the militia you are immune to war decs. So I think if they had that system every corp would go into militia to stop them selves being war deced. Anyway being war deced means there are more targets

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If you wardec a milita corp, then the whole Milita needs to be able to fight back.

E.G Playercorp is running a 20 man gang of milita. 3 of the 20 are under wardec. FC watches his gang get kileld in highsec and the rest of gang cannot help otherwise be concorded in high sec, or lose sec rating in low sec.

This is the problem. Alliances can freely pick people to wardec so they are 100% immune from rest milita gang thought the eve universe.

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Originally by: Lucai

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In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.

Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Originally by: Lucai

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In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.

Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.

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Can be, as long as wardec on entire militia makes you unwelcome in it's empire as per current rules for militias.

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Originally by: Lucai

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Originally by: Lucai

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In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.

Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.

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Can be, as long as wardec on entire militia makes you unwelcome in it's empire as per current rules for militias.

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While this sounds like the most logical thing at first there are problems.

E.g. an industrial player corp that has nothing to do with FW could join up just to get the protection from the empire. Essentially they would be invulnerable as even if people declared on their militia they could never attack them.

Or pirate corps camping entry points from 0.0 to highsec. If local anti-pirate corps or alliances would declare war on them to drive them off or keep the gate safe, these anti-pirate corps would be forced out of the highsec region by NPC navies and unable to use or defend the chokepoint camped by the pirates at all.

In short, giving everyone who joins a militia protection effective full protection from all war declarations allows for a multitude of exploits (war declarations are to wage highsec war, but you cant do that if they never leave their navies jurisdiction, so essentially they are fully protected from wardecs).

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Originally by: Tobias Sjodin

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Originally by: Todes

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they have no place that they can consider safe.

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Oh no.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita

Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?

It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..

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Originally by: Lucai

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Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 22:24:28

If you are in a "real" corp, you know that at any time, anyone can declare war on you for no reasons at all.
Why should that fundamentally change when you get involved in FW?

Were more or less talking about new players here, who do not want to be targetable by wars and still participate in FW.

For them, my advice was to join/stay in the NPC corps.

Being in a player corp = being targetable by empire wars. Thats EVE, always has been, if you like it or not, and discussing this would be a completely different topic.

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Originally by: Todes

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Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.

Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it

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Originally by: Centra Spike

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita

Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?

It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..

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Why would a "gallente greifer corp" join the Caldari Militia? That means they would be shot at in Gallente/Minmatar space and valid targets for those militias. It'd be easier for them not to join a militia at all and "greif" you that way.

Besides the Gallente corp would lose standings and be kicked out of the militia for shooting militia members...

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Originally by: Centra Spike

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Edited by: Market AltLOLOLOLO on 29/06/2008 23:05:21
Gallente greifer corps join Caldari Milita

Then wardec's caldari members. The Gallente corp can attack their own Milita. i mean, WTF?

It is ok if caldari milita can fight back, but now you got greifer corps attacking their own milita's via wardecs and the milita gang cannot do anything due to concord or sec loss..

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Why would a "gallente greifer corp" join the Caldari Militia? That means they would be shot at in Gallente/Minmatar space and valid targets for those militias. It'd be easier for them not to join a militia at all and "greif" you that way.

Besides the Gallente corp would lose standings and be kicked out of the militia for shooting militia members...

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Its already happening. And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it other than wardec their own milita

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Originally by: Todes

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Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.

Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it

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Originally by: Arlenna Molatov

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Edited by: Arlenna Molatov on 30/06/2008 05:35:41

Jucai, i would have to agree with you about player corps= can be wardecc'd. This should not change as it is how the rest of the game works.

What I see as the problem and really needs to be changed, is the aspect of being in a "corp" even though it is officially a NPC corp ( The Caldari State protectorate).

The Caldari State protectorate is one entity as a whole. Just as any corp is part of the alliance they are in. If you war-dec any corp in an alliance by default you have to decalre against the whole alliance. As it stands right now, it does not work this way with the FW NPC corps. You declare war against First Caldari Regiment, which is part of the bigger, Caldari State Protectorate( the alliance in the previous example). Therefor you should by default, be at war with the whole entity, JUST as you would be with any other PC alliance.

This is where corps like yours are taking advantage of the system as it currently is. Everyone who has said it is correct. As part of the CSP, if anyone fires on another CSP then they should be a legal target, period. They should ALSO be considered a target in High-sec Empire as, from a PURE RP perspective, you have declared war on an Empire entity. Like hell any Empire will grant you access to their space after pretty much declaring war on them or any arm of their Empire. Basic rules of corps and alliances is in effect. War dec= war dec'ing the whole entity, not just one part of it.

I am not saying this just because I am enlisted in FW, but this is logically how it should be, given the current rules for war as it stands in the game.

Yes, it gets a bit trickier dealing with the Empire Navies themselves but hey...if you declare war on a corp under the Caldari State Protectorate, by default, you have declared war on the CSP at the very least, if not The Caldari Empire itself.

As you have most thoughtfully brought up in your other posts. There are causes and effects to your actions. Star Fraction is no different. Declare war on an Empire entity, you just might find yourselves not being allowed in that Empires space. It was your choice.

This is of course, they way I personally think it should work, as it is the most logical process and fits RP to the core.

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Originally by: Dihania

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Originally by: Todes

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Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.

Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it

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Wow.
Sorry, but how is a FW corp in any way different from a non FW corp ?
^. player run
^. player owned
^. own name / ticker to set it apart
^. taxes
^. organization
Bla bla etc.

How about all corps who want to escape wars join the FW and stay in empire high sec?

FW is not an alliance, nor an alliance like system. And I hope it will never be... becasue once it is like that, alliances will declare war on you, roll over low sec and crap on your "blobs".

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Originally by: Lucai

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In a way i agree with you Todes. It would be nice if the militia would work like normal alliances. Just be aware that this is a double-edged blade.

Be careful with what you wish, for your wishes may become true.

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Originally by: Todes

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Wardecs onilitia corps provide a very unstable element into the Faction Warfare experience.
Most of the payers in FW are inexpeencd players, with thiese wardecs they have no place that they can consider safe. even getiscouraged with Facton Warfare.

Th fct that tiese new players have nowhee t g to recoupe thier losses means that they leave FW There muste some way to del with thisprblem, such as a massive fee for deccing FW cops, or wardecingte whole militia, or even not allowing it

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Originally by: Balen Organa

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I thought there were NPC FW corps.
Join one of them and you wont be wardecced seems simple.

I do however think if your in the militia and are attacked by a non militia member the respective militia should appear and help.

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Originally by: Market AltLOLOLOLO

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Originally by: Balen Organa

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I thought there were NPC FW corps.
Join one of them and you wont be wardecced seems simple.

I do however think if your in the militia and are attacked by a non militia member the respective militia should appear and help.

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Hey smarty pants,

Can you wardec other members of your alliance? Seems stupid eh? Yet you have caldari milita corps wardecing caldari milita corps for greifing. Nobody can do anything vs greifer corps due to sec loss/corcord as well as caldari faction loss.

Yeah, gallente greifers join caldari milita and kill milita corps and caldari state kicks out anyone trying to kill gallente greifers. I mean, wtf logic is that?

Also, you cannot wardec 1 corp of a alliance. You have to wardec the entire alliance. Why is this different with the milita? It makes no sense at all

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Originally by: northwesten

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Simple answer to this GET ride of Corporations in the militia and just have pilots in the militia only! Problem solved!

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Originally by: Kel'dar Drax

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Originally by: northwesten

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Simple answer to this GET ride of Corporations in the militia and just have pilots in the militia only! Problem solved!

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Agreed.

Star Fraction apparently have nothing better to do with their time than hang around Nourv looking for militia corp noobs to gank...

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Originally by: Lucai

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First off youre not the only one unhappy with the situation. Entities like us, CVA, and others are essentially kept out of FW by the current system. Our options are very limited, resulting in the situation we have right now.

Concerning us being in "perfect safety" to pick targets out of your fleets, during the time i was online we are essentially talking about lowsec space. Using "perfect safety" is a bit far fetched there.

If you want to counter terrorism, you cant always play by the rules. Enough ships get killed every day in lowsec by pirates, anti-pirates and lots of people taking down targets of opportunity, all under fire from gate guns. If you dont want gate aggression, and criminal flags, thats your decision, but dont be surprised if, from your point of view, terroristic organisations exploit your stance on this.
If we were in perfect safety, it was cause your of unwillingness to do certain things to save or avenge your comrades. I do not deny that it would have hindered you quite a bit if you had aggressed us. But the choice still is yours. Do things that inconvenience you, or let your comrades die.
Plus there are ways to get involved and possibly save them without being criminally flagged.

It was your decision alone not to stop us, but to sit by idly.

All of the above is of course my personal opinion, for official statements please contact our diplomats.

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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Originally by: Lucai

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First off youre not the only one unhappy with the situation. Entities like us, CVA, and others are essentially kept out of FW by the current system. Our options are very limited, resulting in the situation we have right now.

Concerning us being in "perfect safety" to pick targets out of your fleets, during the time i was online we are essentially talking about lowsec space. Using "perfect safety" is a bit far fetched there.

If you want to counter terrorism, you cant always play by the rules. Enough ships get killed every day in lowsec by pirates, anti-pirates and lots of people taking down targets of opportunity, all under fire from gate guns. If you dont want gate aggression, and criminal flags, thats your decision, but dont be surprised if, from your point of view, terroristic organisations exploit your stance on this.
If we were in perfect safety, it was cause your of unwillingness to do certain things to save or avenge your comrades. I do not deny that it would have hindered you quite a bit if you had aggressed us. But the choice still is yours. Do things that inconvenience you, or let your comrades die.
Plus there are ways to get involved and possibly save them without being criminally flagged.

It was your decision alone not to stop us, but to sit by idly.

All of the above is of course my personal opinion, for official statements please contact our diplomats.

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I am sick an tired of a-holes like Star Fraction and CVA talking like "WAAAHHH we were left out of FW!!"

YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN AN ALLIANCE THEN! Alliances are for 0.0 territory wars. Star Fraction because of their crappy RP stance of "FREE CAPTAINS!" *high five* they dont do that. Fine I understand, BUT you should be in a single corp so you can dec corps cheaper and conduct empire wars cheaper. You guys got yourself into this situation.

I also think its cowardly of SF to dec one? maybe two? Caldari FW corps and pick them off as they try to organize with the rest of the NPC militia. Then the rest of the corp cannot help thier FW mates.

Thats like deccing one corp in an alliance and the rest of the alliance cannot shoot back at the aggressors while thier alliance mates getted picked off.

STAY OUT OF FACTIONAL WARFARE ALLIANCES!

If you want to roam low sec and take sec hits shootinig us then we will fight back effectivly and not have to take a sec hit defending our mates. All the allinaces in Tama doing that is fine. We can shoot at them if they shoot at us.

No wonder all the GOOD PvPers went to STIMULUS because all SF has is a bunch of exploiting wusses that take advantage of a system to grief.

You guys fight FCR and similer corps in HIGH SEC SPACE because you guys are COWARDS! Fight them in low sec so at least the other militia corps can shoot back.

Star Fraction wusses.

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Originally by: northwesten

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you fail at smack and fail on intelligence! Please delete your account thanks

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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Originally by: northwesten

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you fail at smack and fail on intelligence! Please delete your account thanks

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And you fail and actually arguing anything I said with logic and you pyramid quote to boot.

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Originally by: Lucai

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Edited by: Lucai on 29/06/2008 22:24:28

If you are in a "real" corp, you know that at any time, anyone can declare war on you for no reasons at all.
Why should that fundamentally change when you get involved in FW?

Were more or less talking about new players here, who do not want to be targetable by wars and still participate in FW.

For them, my advice was to join/stay in the NPC corps.

Being in a player corp = being targetable by empire wars. Thats EVE, always has been, if you like it or not, and discussing this would be a completely different topic.

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Originally by: Jianna Aino

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Think of it like this:

Militia is corp 1.
Your corp is corp 2.
war dec corp is corp 3.

Corp 3 wardecs corp 2, not corp 1. So Why should corp 1 get kill rights on corp 3 if corp 3 made an agreement with big scary concord people of doom just to kill corp 2.
You're effectively in 2 seperate corporations.

Where is the problem?

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Originally by: Bish Ounen

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1) If you join FW as a corp you give up the ability to wardec anyone, but are also un-wardeccable by anyone other than other FW Alliances.

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Originally by: Jianna Aino

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Think of it like this:

Militia is corp 1.
Your corp is corp 2.
war dec corp is corp 3.

Corp 3 wardecs corp 2, not corp 1. So Why should corp 1 get kill rights on corp 3 if corp 3 made an agreement with big scary concord people of doom just to kill corp 2.
You're effectively in 2 seperate corporations.

Where is the problem?

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Originally by: Erenis Takthor

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You can simply pick some targets

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Originally by: Centra Spike

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Originally by: Bish Ounen

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1) If you join FW as a corp you give up the ability to wardec anyone, but are also un-wardeccable by anyone other than other FW Alliances.

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So you want a player corp in a militia to be able to dec anyone but be immune from everyone else except their enemy militias? Get real.

You join a player corp and you open yourself up to war decs. You stay in an NPC corp and you are immune to war decs. That's how it works.

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Originally by: Drykor

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All the nonsense about FW being pvp training grounds aside, if you want to fight back then wardec the agressor. You really can't have the cake and eat it, if you don't want to get ganked by alliances like Goonswarm then it's also logical you can't fight back with the whole militia when an individual FW corp is wardecced. Trust me I'd love to be able to wardec the entire factions and many of us do, but admittedly it would be kinda harsh if alliances with 1000+ members got involved here. And they would, if this was an option.

There's still the option of wardeccing us back though. Then you can protect your buddies. Or is this too expensive for you? Hell we're paying the price, so can you.

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Originally by: Centra Spike

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My mistake, I did misread your post. But the heart of the matter is that if you join a player corp, you are open to war decs.

If you just want to do FW you can stay in the NPC militia and be immune from war decs outside of FW. If you want to be in a player corp then you take the mechanics that go with being in a player corp, good and bad.

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Originally by: Van Cleef

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If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.

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Originally by: Bish Ounen

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So you are trying to affect Factional Warfare without actually doing WHAT THE DEVS HAVE SAID YOU NEED TO DO, and disband your Alliance and join as individuals or corps. You are using a loophole in the rules to negatively affect the outcome of a game mechanic in order to DENY the enjoyment of said mechanic to other players who ARE following the rules.

In other words, you are EXPLOITING AND SHOULD BE BANNED along with the rest of Star Fraction.

It's really that simple.

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Originally by: Nitalya

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you hit the nail on the head.... im truly suprized it took this long for some hack alliance to pull a stunt like this.

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Originally by: Bish Ounen

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In other words, you are EXPLOITING AND SHOULD BE BANNED

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Originally by: Kelsin

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It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.

To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?

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Originally by: Kelsin

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It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.

To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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Originally by: Kelsin

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It seems to me that although CCP prohibited Alliances from joining Faction Militias, they did not think to provide a suitable outlet for Alliances (especially RP alliances who have an interest in Faction Warfare) to affect FW, and so the result is what you are experiencing: Alliances using what tools they have to participate in FW on their terms.

To respond directly to the concerns of the OP - the Player Corp under wardec can always disband and join the NPC Militia corp, can't they?

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disband your alliance and join FW.

CCP won't cater to your "we shoot everybody! We are anarchists" playstyle.

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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Except you are only shooting one Caldari corp. Dec them ALL then if you have any balls! OMG is it too expensive? Then disband your alliance and dec them as one large corp. SF isn't that big anyway.

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Quote:

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Jade I don't care about the one corp you decced. They CAN just leave and go into the NPC Militia corp. I am angry that SF thinks they should be respected for greifing a corp that is trying to

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Quote:

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a) organize with the NPC Militia in Nourv to engage in a game mechanic that was intended to work as such. Shooting in low sec. Then they get picked off one by one because of SF greifing them.

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Quote:

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b) cannot get any help (logistics? yeah then they get killed as they get WT aggro for repping them) from thier Militia mates.

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Quote:

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You are exploiting an oversight in the game mechanics. It is like deccing one corp in an alliance. Grow a pair and take them all full force.

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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Except you are only shooting one Caldari corp. Dec them ALL then if you have any balls! OMG is it too expensive? Then disband your alliance and dec them as one large corp. SF isn't that big anyway.

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Originally by: "Ayrianna Na***a"

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a) organize with the NPC Militia in Nourv to engage in a game mechanic that was intended to work as such.

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Originally by: Nitalya

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im very disapointed to see a member of the CSM leading this group of exploiters. you can justify your actions to yourself with this anarchoblah blah. but lets face it you guys couldnt find an alliance to beat so you decided to pick on a corp with prolly 98% noobs in it. i personaly would like to see a movement to get you removed from the CSM for promoting this type of activity that goes against what the game mechanics where inteded for. why dont you guys man up and wardec another alliance that where all there corps can defend themselfs.. or does haveing any form of honor goe against your RP theme...

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Originally by: Arlenna Molatov

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No, what I find disparaging is that a CSM member would let their corp "work around" the rules and reasons that CCP laided down for FW in the first place.

Even IF this wasn't a big problem, you have the major issues of being able to war-dec one corp in a larger entity which CANNOT happen anywhere else in the game. A corp that is part of a Militia is just as a corp is part of an Alliance. As a CSM MEMBER, this sticks out as much as a supernova would in terms of game imbalance...and as a CSM member, lets it happen.

I'm sorry Jade, you have just proven to the whole community that you DO NOT BELONG in the CSM as you do not have the greater good of the Eve player base in your best interest, only your corps. This alone I would think would be a case for expulsion.

I would VERY much like to hear imput from the Dev team themselves about this Issue as it is getting VERY ugly in the whole game with several matters.

***CCP- your paying customer base would like a response from you.

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Originally by: Dex Nederland

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My first suggestion, leave Nourv - there are a large number of systems that go into Black Rise and allow you to attack the Federation.

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Originally by: Dex Nederland

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Now I am disappointed to see 4 Caldari corps on the list and not an equal number of Gallente, Minmatar, and Amarr corporations, esp with the success the Minmatar are seeing. Not very unbiased but that is another thread.

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Originally by: Arlenna Molatov

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No, what I find disparaging is that a CSM member would let their corp "work around" the rules and reasons that CCP laided down for FW in the first place.

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Quote:

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Even IF this wasn't a big problem, you have the major issues of being able to war-dec one corp in a larger entity which CANNOT happen anywhere else in the game.

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Quote:

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A corp that is part of a Militia is just as a corp is part of an Alliance.

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Quote:

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As a CSM MEMBER, this sticks out as much as a supernova would in terms of game imbalance...and as a CSM member, lets it happen.

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Quote:

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I'm sorry Jade, you have just proven to the whole community that you DO NOT BELONG in the CSM as you do not have the greater good of the Eve player base in your best interest, only your corps. This alone I would think would be a case for expulsion.

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Quote:

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I would VERY much like to hear imput from the Dev team themselves about this Issue as it is getting VERY ugly in the whole game with several matters.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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Edited by: CCP Dionysus on 19/05/2008 18:55:13

Originally by: Elaron

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Dionysus, with all due respect, why are you being so evasive on the war dec issue? To force us to try it on SiSi (which is closed for the next few days)?

If you could give us a clear and concise answer to the following questions, we won't have to speculate (including assuming the worst due to incomplete responses) and can start to actually plan:

1) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on the Militia corporations themselves?
2) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on player corporations that are members of the Militias?
3) Will it be possible for player corporations who are signed up for the factional Militias to issue war declarations on other player entities, signed up or not?

Also, please bear in mind before posting an obfuscated response that if we know how this is supposed to work, we'll be able to create proper bug reports if our tests on SiSi contradict the given answer.

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Hokeydokey.

Simple clear responses.
1) No. They are NPC corps, and like any NPC corps you cannot declare war.
2) Yes. They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. You will have to pay normal wardec costs etc though.
3) Similarly to above - yes.

I was being "evasive" as I was giving opinions.

/me puts on flame suit to prepare for the response from vocal players.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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The problem with this issue is that gangs can no longer team up with corps at war. That is the flaw here. CCP needs to implement a voluntary option to either gang up for the war or stay out of war when in gangs. Or make an option where any FC or WC at war can have the war filter down to his fleet.

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Originally by: northwesten

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EVE is harsh! Just deal with it or leave that simple!

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Originally by: Steel Tigeress

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I see someone not getting re-elected if they hold new elections.

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Originally by: Napro

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Originally by: northwesten

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EVE is harsh! Just deal with it or leave that simple!

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ya srsly nubs! Its not like the game can be changed or anything

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Originally by: nVChicky

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But there are other corps that are not in FW that would still be able to be wardec'd, atm the only people who are getting exploited are those in FW.
The only problem I see with stopping it is that corp's who dont wish to be wardec'd join FW - but then they still cannot enter opposing FW space and can be attacked by opposing Militias - was this not the idea of the expansion.........
Oh, yes and those who dont wish to participate in FW feel left out, aww bless, why not just continue to wardec those who also aren't participating in FW and play your own game.......

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Originally by: northwesten

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Originally by: Napro

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Originally by: northwesten

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EVE is harsh! Just deal with it or leave that simple!

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ya srsly nubs! Its not like the game can be changed or anything

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nub? and whats your great idea then? Other wise STFU and deal with it! there fine as there are just noobs and lazy F4ú like you just want things easy and a win button!
like i said deal with it or just leave it's THAT SIMPLE!

Soon you get that idea in your head you stop whining. complete moron at its best as I can see.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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But there are other corps that are not in FW that would still be able to be wardec'd, atm the only people who are getting exploited are those in FW.
The only problem I see with stopping it is that corp's who dont wish to be wardec'd join FW - but then they still cannot enter opposing FW space and can be attacked by opposing Militias - was this not the idea of the expansion.........
Oh, yes and those who dont wish to participate in FW feel left out, aww bless, why not just continue to wardec those who also aren't participating in FW and play your own game.......

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Originally by: Ecky Ptang

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...Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? ...

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Quote:

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If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.

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Wait, what, this doesn't happen?

It absolutely should.

It was my understanding it already worked this way.

People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc)

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Quote:

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My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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If a group attacks a milita flagged corporation, they should loose standing in whatever race that milita belongs to - war or not. If they kill enough of them, their standing should lower to the point that the racial navies engage them which would help out with hi-security stuff. Low security, as you should, your on your own.

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Wait, what, this doesn't happen?

It absolutely should.

It was my understanding it already worked this way.

People asking for their militia corps to be immune to war decs are off base, but any corp that does war dec them should defacto be 'at war' with that factions NPC navies. (and lose standing appropriately for each pod kill, etc)

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Originally by: northwesten

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I really really cant see the problem in this. Think about it if they cant war dec a corp in the Militia then everyone will join it to try and avoid wars.

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So if i have a corp owning space in 0.0, i will enlist with one militia, and "war or not" anyone shooting me will lose standings.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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Originally by: northwesten

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I really really cant see the problem in this. Think about it if they cant war dec a corp in the Militia then everyone will join it to try and avoid wars.

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I really feel that you are happy with the system as it suits you, it does not however make good gameplay for those in FW. Yes if War Dec's were stopped for FW Corps people would join to try and avoid wars but they will have just entered into a bigger war, won't be able to enter opposing faction high sec and will have quite a few more enemies!

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now.

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Hmmm, another post seeming to indicate people war deccing militia corps are not getting attacked by those militia's NPC navies nor suffering standings losses.

Can anyone confirm this is indeed the case?

I disagree whole heartedly with the idea what militia corps should be immune to war decs (No place in EVE is totally safe) but I also agree entirely that people who do war dec militia corps must be considered 'at war' with that militia's faction (actions have consequences) and be attacked by the faction navies and suffer any appropriate standings losses.

SF should definitely enthusiastically be behind this idea, as they've always wanted to 'be at war' with the main factions. Now they could war dec a militia corp from each faction and be shoot on sight in all 4 empires, which should warm their anarchist little hearts.

Jade, use your position on CSM and get on this one!

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Originally by: nVChicky

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my list of possible solutions:

1) make the militia a formal alliance
(therefore wardecs once voted would apply to all in that militia)

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Originally by: nVChicky

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my list of possible solutions:

2) Stop Player Corps being allowed to be formed in FW and create more NPC FW Corps
(Would stop the possibility of wardecs and shrink the size of NPC Corps)

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Originally by: nVChicky

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my list of possible solutions:

3) Not allow WarDecs to Player Corporations in the FW
(Would allow players to continue in FW but may create exploits)

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Originally by: nVChicky

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my list of possible solutions:

(4) have no NPC corps in FW and allow alliances
(would mean Player Corps in the militia could easily choose if they wished t aid their commrades)

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Joining the other militia? Not an option for alliances at the moment and still has the default problem that it makes caldari space home ground advantage for this bunch of ninja scum who don't care two hoots about faction warfare but just want to hide from the consequences of their actions on the corp vs corp stage.

You do need to think these things through properly.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you.

I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses.

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Originally by: Ecky Ptang

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As it is at the moment, it seems a corp in a militia gets all the drawbacks without any advantages towards hostile actions from player corps. They are restricted in space and dont have an alliance to back them up, sometimes when just starting out a lot of "noob" playerbase to. Then there is the hostile alliance with experienced players, an alliance with solid income and badass ships, unrestricted in space.

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Quote:

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My answer to that is to add a faction penalty to the faction the killed player belongs to for the killer. This results in several things: players that keep attacking militia's will find them unwanted in the corresponding faction space and corps inside the same militia wardecking each other will sooner or later find themselves outside the militia. Wouldn't you respond as a faction if your militia keeps getting harassed by the same people? Hell i would kick them out of my space on every opportunity. Just to serve the eve golden rule: every action has its consequences, even for those griefers, unlike as it is now.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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I would support a system where by the militia kept a list of all incoming active wardecs against its corps and allowed ANY milita corp to join one of these wars completely FREE just by clicking a "help militia ally" button and waiting out the 24 hour timer. (with another 24 hour timer to withdraw the help of course). This would allow players in the Militia to aid player corps against attacks from player corps and would hopefully address the issue in a way that encourages pvp and consequence in Eve online.

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Originally by: Khyle

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Read again. Only people actually at war with you would take the standings hit. If you're in 0.0, you're fair game no matter what, so no people would bother to declare war on you.

I can't believe you're making such flimsy excuses.

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The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem.

Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?*

Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits.

* direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions

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Originally by: Rachael Malace

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Wouldn't a simple solution be:

Gang members share all kill rights of all members in the gang including Wardec kill rights and all gang members accept all kill rights placed on all members in the gang. So that this isn't exploited the dynamic exchange of kill rights could be managed with warnings when joining a gang or inviting someone to a gang.

In this way if a mixed roaming gang (FW or not) is engaged by war-targets pertaining only to a subset of the fleet, the whole gang could engage.


A more conservative solution:
Aggressing to a member of a fleet (WarDec or not) makes you red to the fleet.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Khyle

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...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ...

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At the moment I do not believe they do.

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Quote:

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I don't believe that corporations in a FW militia should get ANY more protection from wardecs and player consequence than a starting non-FW corp should.

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Originally by: Khyle

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Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42

Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Khyle

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...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ...

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At the moment I do not believe they do.

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Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho.

Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...?

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Jade, that's complete nonsense. A corp in the caldari militia cannot come after you in gallente hi sec space if you war dec them. Therefore, to keep things remotely equal, you should not be able to come after them in caldari hi sec space.

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Quote:

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FW corps have signed up for a specific faction, with all the disadvantages and advantages that provides. People shouldn't be able to wardec them from outside the militias and simply bypass the whole FW bit.

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I am completely fine with people wardeccing corps in the militia - but when they do so, they simply ought to be considered at war with that factions navies. (and associated standings hits, etc)

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Originally by: "Jade"

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Lets say I'm the CEO of Friendly Fun Corp Inferno We're an industrial trading outfit and we've just been corp thefted and suicided ganked and generally smack-talked in Jita by Twilight Disco Ninjas . We declare war on our nemesis. This is Eve. Maybe we win, maybe we lose, but we're doing our own enforcement. At the moment there is nowhere the Twilight Disco Ninjas can go in empire to escape our vengeance, our retrofitted trading ships will burn them with holy fire of vendetta!

But if you had this negative standings penalty thing for the militia - then the Twilight Disco Ninjas could just join the Caldari Militia and if we continued attacking them eventually we'd be hounded by faction navy in Caldari space and lose our ability to trade in Jita as well as having the decks stacked against us in every fight.

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Originally by: Khyle

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The exact wording was "-war or not." So read again. Plus read Jades post, she came up with a more empire-centric example of the problem.

Most importantly, do militia members get standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias?*

Can¦t find any mention of this in the devblogs or guide. If no, then why should anyone else attacking militia members get standing hits.

* direct standing hits for aggression, not derived from your faction standing increasing by doing FW missions

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Originally by: nVChicky

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Originally by: Khyle

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Edited by: Khyle on 02/07/2008 15:01:42

Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Originally by: Khyle

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...Most importantly, do militia members get direct standings hits for shooting players of hostile militias? ...

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At the moment I do not believe they do.

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Which should instantly silence all people asking for non-militia corps fighting militia corps getting standing hits imho.

Can we get a definite answer on this? nVChicky, Ulstan, ...?

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As far as I can tell reading from my logs you DO get a hit for fighting NPC militia when capping but you don't when when engaging players from opposing militia Corps

example: Kill mail >2008.06.23 22:21:00

Victim: Kingeal
Corp: Invicta.
Alliance: NONE
Faction: Gallente Federation
but no corresponding Faction Standing hit

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Quote:

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You are arguing for specific standings losses that have a lasting effect on players ability to move in empire space. But the reality is that your hypothetical corp in the Caldari Militia is NOT taking standings hits for shooting other players period. And COULD if it wished to leave the Caldari Miltia, wardec whom it chooses, even join the Gallente, Minmatar or Amarr miltias the next day to play the field from the other side. You cannot argue for equivalence on this basis.

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Quote:

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Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant.
The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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I am arguing for the navies to attack those at war with a militia corp in their hi sec, just as navies will attack those militia in other hi sec places. This is completely fair.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant.
The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant.
The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. Its a hellova lot of free wardecs and no lasting consequence should they wish to leave at any time they choose. I completely oppose any principle that would allow corporations to make themselves un-wardecable is the bottom line. I think there is a huge problem with the Militia npc corp itself being un-wardecable but thats another story. Faction Warfare is designed to be meaningful pvp in empire and a way of allowing nationalists to contest low-sec systems. Its not designed to be a war-dec avoidance mechanic to protect entities from the consequences of their non FW actions.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Originally by: nVChicky

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The simple 'fix' is as Jade said, allow FW Corps to assist other FW Corps that are at war and allow alliances to join FW. Standing hits is irrelevant.
The point is when in a FW Corp, War dec'd, theres no ability of assistance.

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That wouldn't really fix the issue we're discussing, unless you removed the ability of non militia corps to war dec militia corps, which is not at all something I'm convinced should happen.

The issue is one of simply equality: a militia corp cannot enter their enemies hi sec space while in the militia without navy interference. Therefore, to keep things even, if you war dec a corporation belonging to a faction militia, you shouldn't be able to enter their hi sec space without navy interference.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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[
The issue is one of simply equality: a militia corp cannot enter their enemies hi sec space while in the militia without navy interference. Therefore, to keep things even, if you war dec a corporation belonging to a faction militia, you shouldn't be able to enter their hi sec space without navy interference.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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It CAN only be fair (read balanced) if the external power had the same target choice as an enemy militia has.

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Quote:

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Your character is a loyalist sworn directly to Heth's cause Ulsan and you are protected by Concord from 3rd party interference and your faction navy from enemy militia interference.

But members of corps that have simply affilitated with militias are a different case - consider them privateers or freelancers or contracted help.

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 02/07/2008 15:29:33

Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Problem is there aren't really any disadvantages for a corp joining a miltia. Its a hellova lot of free wardecs and no lasting consequence should they wish to leave at any time they choose. I completely oppose any principle that would allow corporations to make themselves un-wardecable is the bottom line. I think there is a huge problem with the Militia npc corp itself being un-wardecable but thats another story. Faction Warfare is designed to be meaningful pvp in empire and a way of allowing nationalists to contest low-sec systems. Its not designed to be a war-dec avoidance mechanic to protect entities from the consequences of their non FW actions.

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NO DISADVANTAGES!!! that's a funny one. Are you saying that not being able to fly in ALL of the opposing faction regions is NOT a disadvantage? If that's your idea, then by all means... YOU leave your alliance and join the militia and find out for yourself. Or, how about YOU take on all the rules of faction warfare within your declared wars? hmmmmmm? No, you wouldn't be so naive to take on that responsibility. How could you manage your Caldari attacks if you were not allowed in Caldari hi-sec.

Oh, and another disadvantage... some milita members fly ships designed for certain complexes. So yes, you can gain an advange there if militia roaming ships are t1 frigs.

Your war decs are about kills and griefs... not even a roleplay issue. That's just a fake coating you put on it all to try and justify your lameness.

When corps join militia, they lose space, and gain a war... when YOU declare war on a milita corp, you gain the safety of space, and grief a war.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Again, nope. Privateers or free lancers or contracted help would be just that: mercs, people like CVA, etc. Militia corps are official members of the militia - that's why they are barred from entering the opposing factions hi sec space, why every member of the opposing militia gets to shoot at them, and why they have to maintain appropriately high standings with the caldari faction and why they'll be kicked out of the militia if their standings fall too low.

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Quote:

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The issue is a very simple one: militia corps cannot enter enemy hi spec space without being attacked by faction navies. Therefore, to keep things fair, people who war dec militia corps should be unable to enter their hi sec space without being attacked by their faction navies.

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Any other arrangement breaks the parity and balance and leaves one side with a safe haven the other doesn't have an equivalent too.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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You are still confusing the status of personal membership in the Militia entity with Corporation association with the FW cause. Its not the same thing. The solution proposed (above) answers the problem of allowing FW corps to help other FW corps that are wardecced and its a player empowerment option that allows players to provide consequence to actions of other players.

You are really off-target with the standings issue because at the moment nobody is taking standings losses for firing on FW-aligned player corps.

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Originally by: Ayrianna Na***a

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I am really upset that the Chair for the CSM is so biased for his own perogatives.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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I agree in heart Pithe BUT a few points
1) if people do not wish to be in a war dec the can leave the player Corp
2) newbie players WILL learn by War Dec;s if they stay in the Player Corp
3) The problem is support and lack of it

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Originally by: Miz Cenuij

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Jade, you should be listening to the views of the majority, not simply and blindly defending your own selfish corner. You gave up the right to be so when you took the csm position. Remember you are in an ELECTED position, put there by the people to represent thier views and interests. TBH nothing good has been said about u since you were given that position, dont rate your chances for re-election much...

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Originally by: Miz Cenuij

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Jade, you should be listening to the views of the majority, not simply and blindly defending your own selfish corner. You gave up the right to be so when you took the csm position. Remember you are in an ELECTED position, put there by the people to represent thier views and interests. TBH nothing good has been said about u since you were given that position, dont rate your chances for re-election much...

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Course the problem is everybody thinks THEY are the majority.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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Jade please check your mail
Thanks

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Originally by: Pithecanthropus

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[ You have to listen to reasonable arguments from both sides, and as it loks now you already made your decision. That's a shame. Seeing no one in Eve has a chance to even argue the point when you can't even be open to other beliefs.

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Originally by: Nitalya

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...

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Quote:

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However both of these complaints are the result of actions the FW corp chose - chosing to remain in the Militia under the FW corp, and choosing not to enlist your fellow militia corps in a counter-wardec.

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The individual members of the FW associated corps do not need Caldari standings.

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Originally by: Nitalya

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if ccp wanted alliance to take part in FW dont you think they would have bult them into the system. face facts SF your on a fishing expedition in hopes that ccp will see the flaw in there ways(from your POV) and make FW so you guys can do what you want.

and i still didnt see any answers to my questions about hwy your awsome anarcho RP alliance isnt at war with all factions like you claim you want to be but only 4 corps in one faction?

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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Edited by: CCP Dionysus on 19/05/2008 18:55:13

Originally by: Elaron

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1) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on the Militia corporations themselves?
2) Will it be possible for entities (that is, corporations and alliances) who are not part of the formal Factional Warfare mechanic to declare war on player corporations that are members of the Militias?
3) Will it be possible for player corporations who are signed up for the factional Militias to issue war declarations on other player entities, signed up or not?

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1) No. They are NPC corps, and like any NPC corps you cannot declare war.
2) Yes. They are still normal player corps. They are not technically joining an alliance, and dont gain the "protection" that being in an alliance gives you. You will have to pay normal wardec costs etc though.
3) Similarly to above - yes.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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However both of these complaints are the result of actions the FW corp chose - chosing to remain in the Militia under the FW corp, and choosing not to enlist your fellow militia corps in a counter-wardec.

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Kelsin, be reasonable here. I could just as well push for miltia corps being 100% immune to war decs by saying that you being unable to war dec them is a result of your choosing not to enlist in the militia.

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However, unlike other player corps, these player corps are part of the officially sanctioned military arm of their state - as such, they are at war with the NPC navies of enemy states. It is only fair that they be granted the NPC navy protection of their own state.

...

I am not pushing for my side to have a significant advantage - I want both sides to be on an equal playing field.

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Originally by: nVChicky

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Edited by: nVChicky on 02/07/2008 17:40:13
We can't have everything and I would personally settle for this
Just because a Corp is in FW means they are not immune to aspects of War Dec's therefore they should have the ability to aid from other FW Corps as the non-FW Corp can aid its attack with other non-FW Corp.

This isn't the end of the problem BUT will make 'fairer' gameplay.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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I am very happy to listen to reasonable arguments.

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I don't think I'm being unreasonable. If it were the case that FW corps were immune to wardec, what you said would be a perfectly reasonable argument. My point is that FW corps DO have a recourse under the current system. They can participate in FW and be immune to wardecs by being in the NPC Militia Corp. What the OP is asking for is that they have those advantages AND be able to be a player corp.

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The behavior of the NPC Navies is a sticky point, but again you're looking at it from a skewed perspective. You, the Caldari Militia have the Caldari NPC Navy on your side to balance the Gallente NPC Navy on the side of the Gallente Militia. In a conflict between a Caldari Militia Player Corp and (for example) the Star Fraction - where is our NPC Navy?

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The Caldari Navy is an anti-Gallente tool, not a pro-Caldari tool.

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On a side note, you won't find much traction with the "A CSM member should behave in such and such a way" argument. I'd drop it if I were you because it's just unbecoming and has no bearing on a discussion of game mechanics, and makes your arguments seem like they can't stand up on their own.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Quote:

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The behavior of the NPC Navies is a sticky point, but again you're looking at it from a skewed perspective. You, the Caldari Militia have the Caldari NPC Navy on your side to balance the Gallente NPC Navy on the side of the Gallente Militia. In a conflict between a Caldari Militia Player Corp and (for example) the Star Fraction - where is our NPC Navy?

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Eugh, what? Your NPC navy is back in gallente hi sec space, just like the caldari militia NPC navy is in Caldari hi sec space. The difference is your NPC navy will shoot at the caldari militia but the caldari militia navy will not shoot at you. Ergo, gross imbalance :p

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The Caldari Navy is an anti-Gallente tool, not a pro-Caldari tool.

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No, that's the Gallente Militia's Navy, not Star Fraction's

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You'd have player corps signing up just for the free NPC protection, and not in order to fight their Faction enemies.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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Either
(a) Make the gallente navy not attack caldari militia corps when they've been war decced by non FW militia

or

(b) Make the caldari navy attack non FW corps that have wardecced their militias.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't particularly care which method you're more in favor of, but those are the only two methods to remedy the imbalance.

Quote:

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Ummm... method (A) would just lead to abuse. You don't want 1 man corp deccing all of caldari militia to run into Gallente space freely.

Method (B) is the ONLY viable option
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.

Originally by: Nitalya

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the more i read the compleet garbage that comes from jade and the rest of SF mouths i understand what this stunt is all about... SF is all bent out of shape cause FW wasnt created for alliances with them in mind, it was created for the individual player and small corps to give them an idea of what alliances are like and give players access to fleet battles and the like. rather than go to war with other RP communitys that are still in tact SF decided to point out a flaw in the FW system allowing allinces to influence faction warfare with minimal risk to themself. and whats truly sad about his is the sandbox nature of eve will allow a few jacka$$es to ruin the game experience of many.

simple fact SF is trying to bully ccp into changing FW to suit there agenda at the expence of other players game experience. and as a member of the CSM jade should be ashamed of himself for not takeing the proper actions to get this issue resolved, instead they take the same aproach a small child would. they claim to hate all empires but only agress a few small corps in one.

SF can stand behind RP all they want but its simple they are cowards and there leadership has proven to me that they dont deserve my respect or the respect from anyone in the eve community.

would like a good explination as to why caldari was chose over the other 3 factions and why they wont wardec a real alliance?

and i really want to point out one more time CCP has give OVER HALF the regions in eve to alliance to do as they wish why is it so hard to understand that CCP would five something for the indidual player and small corps to do. you know for poeple that dont want to deal with egomaniacs like jade constintine or sir mole.

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Originally by: Ulstan

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On a side note, you won't find much traction with the "A CSM member should behave in such and such a way" argument. I'd drop it if I were you because it's just unbecoming and has no bearing on a discussion of game mechanics, and makes your arguments seem like they can't stand up on their own.

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I completely disagree. If a member of the CSM stoops to arguing for blatant imbalances that favor him, I think that is highly relevant to the playerbase. Jade's double standards are what is unbecoming here, not members of the community he was elected to serve calling him out on it. I understand that you are loyal to Jade and want to defend him no matter what, but think of how this will look to those members of the community not in SF.

And it would only make my arguments seem they couldn't stand up on their own if one had a reading disorder. The fact that my arguments (and those of many others in this thread) do stand up on their own is why I can level such a charge against Jade in the first place.

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