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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.17 19:44:00 -
[121]
Hey guys, thanks a load for this thread. I have a very curious mind so I have managed to take the notes from this thread and put together a bit of php to calculate skill times.
This is the first attempt so its not pretty as yet. So anyone who wants to take a copy of it your welcome. If its wrong, please let me know. I will be tidying it up over the next few days or so, will post when Ive made an update.
My php skill thingy
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.18 01:42:00 -
[122]
Well, if I knew how to program in php I'd help ya out. When the program's finished, I'd be more than happy to do some calculation checking, though.
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.18 20:50:00 -
[123]
Hey thanks Tripoli, Ive been tinkering with this in my spare time, got the beginnings of opening it up to people done tonight, I hope to eventually use the Character sheet XML.
Anyway I put a new version up, for those who know php the source is availiable so click the relevant link. More stuff yet to be added just dont have much time, maybe I should start a new thread on this?
So Viewable Link and the Source Linkage
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.19 02:29:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Tripoli on 19/10/2005 02:28:58
At long last I have updated this old thread. This post has been updated to include information about the Advanced learning skills and even a reference to the future Elite learning skills that so many of us are hoping for. 
Check out page 1 to see the revised post.
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.19 09:39:00 -
[125]
Right, so you have re-factored the way an attribute is calculated. Cool I'll change that over tonight. With any luck my calculations will match yours :)
Oh incase you wondered I put the adv skill lvl and skill lvl together (hence the 9 bonus).
I have a furtther plan for this thing Im working on but if I told you what that was I may have to shoot you, but Im not doing PVP yet ;)
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davidfire
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Posted - 2005.10.19 19:09:00 -
[126]
hi
and where i put the rank of the skill????
( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) / ( PriAttrib + ( SecAttrib / 2 ) ) where it go???
thanks
David
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.19 23:41:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Tripoli on 19/10/2005 23:42:33
 Originally by: davidfire
hi
and where i put the rank of the skill????
( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) / ( PriAttrib + ( SecAttrib / 2 ) ) where it go???
thanks
David
Good question. Technically, rank has nothing to do with this forula. "( SPNeeded - CurrentSP )" basically includes this already. Rank simply determines exactly how many SP are needed for a certain level of a certain skill.
For a Rank(1) skill the levels are:
1: 250 SP
2: 1,414 SP
3: 8,000 SP
4: 45,255 SP
5: 256,000 SP
For a higher rank skill, each level is simply that many SP*rank, so for a Rank(3) skill it's:
1: 750 SP
2: 4,242 SP
3: 24,000 SP
4: 135,765 SP
5: 768,000 SP
If you were training a Rank(2) skill from level 2 to level 3, that portion of the forumla would be filled out like so:
( SPNeeded - CurrentSP )
( 16000 - 2828 )
...which equals the total number of skill points not already trained that are needed to reach the next level.
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davidfire
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Posted - 2005.10.20 03:23:00 -
[128]
thanks!
you rule
DavidFire
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Eliza Renoir
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Posted - 2005.10.23 20:47:00 -
[129]
Ok, just to mention something that eases the whole process (for the user especially, if you're making some kind of application using these numbers).
Instead of messing with 'implants', 'attribute skills', 'base values' and 'learning skill', all you need is 'eve attribute' and 'learning skill'.
'eve attribute' is the value that EVE shows in the 'attribute'-part of the character sheet (i.e. actual value, just truncated), and 'learning skill' is the level of the learning skill. So, instead of having your user plot in 4 numbers, and also *figure out* those four numbers (checking 1 or 2 attribute skills, implant tab, learning skill and magically remembering base attribute (unless there's some way of seeing this? there might be, but i don't know of it :)), you enter two, simple-to-find values.
How do you get the proper value? Use this simple formula:
learningMultiplier = 1 + (learningSkill * 0.02) // Old news.
actualSkill = ceil(truncatedValue/learningMultiplier) * learningMultiplier.
Tadaa!
ceil is a function that rounds a number up to closest whole integer.
truncatedValue is the value EVE shows.
Example: My character sheet says I have 15 memory, and that I have Learning Lvl 4.
learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08.
actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(13.88889) * 1.08 = 14*1.08 = 15.12.
Now, mathematically it's not that much easier, but it uses numbers that are *way* easier to find. (Atleast for a poor newbie like me)
There might be err in my ways; if so: let me know. But this is what I'm using on my application. :)
Am I making any sense? 
Kindest regards, Eliza Renoir. |
Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:20:00 -
[130]
Interesting, your using the ceiling for your round ups, whereas Im using the floor value on most. I think we have to ask Tripoli what is best?
Or is it the case of > .5 round up < .5 round down?
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.25 05:06:00 -
[131]
Very interesting, Eliza. I played around with it a bit and never found an instance where that didn't work. I just may have to add that in to my original post. Many thanks. 
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.25 23:01:00 -
[132]
Well after working on this for the past two days Im happy with the results :)
You can noew fill in the form and get results :) May I be too hasty to say that I have it working with both the IGB and outside the IGB.
So In game use the In Game Calc
Otherwise use Web Eve Skill Calc
Thanks goto all the people that contributed stuff to Tripoli and of course the man himself, more improvements to come perhaps, feel free to drop me an eve-mail in game
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.26 01:34:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Tripoli on 26/10/2005 01:35:03
Very nice. Looks like it works pretty well.
One thing I noticed whas that the SP Needed came out 1 SP too high on the calculation I did. It was 48,000 SP Rank(6) training to lv 4. Int 28 Mem 28 Learning 5. For some reason it said there was 1 more SP to be trained than there actually was, which in turn threw off the total time calculation by 2 seconds.
Same thing on the in-game version.
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.10.26 10:22:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 26/10/2005 10:24:14
Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 26/10/2005 10:23:48
Most odd... Everything looks correct, I'll update it tonight anyway with a small improvement, just to check things heres what it tells me
Current SP : 48,000
Total SP Required : 271,530
SP Required : 223,530
Time : 3 Days 14 Hours 50 Minutes 29 Seconds
Can you see which bit may be wrong?
By the way its the same code that runs both the IGB version and the Web version, so if its wrong in one its wrong in the other :) Oh the power of templates :)
By the way its the same code that runs both the IGB version and the Web version, so if its wrong in one its wrong in the other :) Oh the power of templates :)
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.27 05:32:00 -
[135]
Well, according to EVE, a Rank(6) skill has 271,529 SP for level 4, not 271,529. Maybe this is one of those wierd instances where EVE's rounding causes this, and when the skill completes it actually stops at 271,530.
I checked the program against a few other skills and it came out perfect. That's EVE for ya. 
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Viv Savage
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:49:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Viv Savage on 27/10/2005 11:52:29
Originally by: Tripoli
Perception is (4+5+3+3)*(1+(5*0.02) = 16.2
Willpower is (7+5+2+3)*(1+(5*0.02) = 19.44
Great post Tripoli but the math looks like it needs to be clarified a smidge with these. (this is the equation for missile launcher operation)
I have perception equalling 16.5 with that equation and willpower equalling 18.7... maybe a wrong cut/paste adjustment? I could be wrong.
thanks
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.10.28 01:26:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Viv Savage
Originally by: Tripoli
Perception is (4+5+3+3)*(1+(5*0.02) = 16.2
Willpower is (7+5+2+3)*(1+(5*0.02) = 19.44
Great post Tripoli but the math looks like it needs to be clarified a smidge with these. (this is the equation for missile launcher operation)
I have perception equalling 16.5 with that equation and willpower equalling 18.7... maybe a wrong cut/paste adjustment? I could be wrong.
thanks
Good catch. That's what I get for writing these things at 2 in the morning. You are correct. I've updated the post.
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Jordan Newton
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Posted - 2005.11.04 10:16:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Jordan Newton on 04/11/2005 10:18:03
Eithercase the learning skill gives 2% increase in all and each atributes and no need to worry too much about when u aply it
If Learning Skill each level is 0.02 increase of each attribute then
Learning Level 1 = Factor 0.02
Learning Level 2 = Factor 0.04
etc
But u can be certain that this skill affects attributes not points needed, and the order of the calculations is
1) Base attribute
2) Skill for this attribute
3) Implant for this attribute
4) Learning factor
(Base + SkillEnhancer + Impant) * Learning factor
Learning Skill affects only the effective attributes and the skill points needed remain the same
The best recomandation i can do is that u plan wich skills u will study next ej:
I want to start studing first Engeenering class skills
As the Engeenering class skills will all require Intelligence (primary) and memory (secundary) u can consider to boost your intelligence first (the Dominant) cuz u know that memory will be halved and will be not the dominant factor in the learning of engeenering; upgrading Analitical Mind to 5 is top priority, then if you plan to specialize on this class u can consider to upgrade your Memory Skill to level 5 also, but if you do not plan to be an Engeener Profesional then u can move on over other learning skills.
The learning skill
This skill is optimal to any who wishes to add a maximum of 10% extra on their learning capabilities, making this skill much more useful for "know it all" users, but a litle less useful for specialists.
For "know it all" characters, maxing the base attributes of memory and intelligence at the very first character creation is a good start for the learning class skills and makin the "long term" investment of time, shorter and productive.
Before maxing any learning class skills u must consider the involved time over the leveling of the skill, if your character is low on memory and intelligence (learning class primary and secondary attributes) then the learning skills will be a huge invest in learning time and u can be stuck on the leveling of this skills for long time, wich its not the funiest thing to do.
For a specialist on social (ej) may not be the best investment as your memory and intel may not be high:
Empathy Skill and Prescence Skill are twice effective than any other learning skill
Social + (1/2)*(Memory) * BASE
Using some algebra:
Social = 1 * Social
and 1/2 Memory = 0.5 Memory
and 10% extra (learning 5) = 1.1
:: [1*(Social) + (0.5*Memory)] * 1.1
= [1.1*(1*Social)] + [1.1*(0.5*Memory)]
= (2.1*Social) + (1.6*Memory)
For the Primary with learning 5
2.1 effective
Secondary with learning 5
1.6 effective
The relation of those is: 2.1/1.6 = 1.3125 with learning
without learning would be: 2/1.5 = 1.33333^
this means that there is a drop on the difference between the secondary and the primary relation by 0.02083333^ (~2%)
The drop on the relation means that your secondary attribute has increased its relative importance against you primary attribute by 2%.
You may gain 10% extra overall, but your secondary attribute is 2% more importan!
Be careful and plan your character 
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.11.07 00:11:00 -
[139]
What he said.
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Wukwuk
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:25:00 -
[140]
Doesn't seem to work for me ... please help out
Base stats: 8 - 5 - 14 - 7 - 6 (I took Sebiestor / Manager, don't laugh...)
Learning Sk: 4 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 4
Implants: +1 each
Shoud be: 14,04 - 10,8 - 19,44 - 11,88 - 11,88
Shown as: 14 - 10 - 18 - 11 - 11
Problems:
1) CHA should be shown as 19, not 18
2) Skill times are all over the map, i. e. Analytical Mind 4 --> 5
EVE says: 7D 17H 50M 31S
Eve Skill Calc says: 7D 7H 47M 47S
My Excel sheet: 7D 7H 47M 48S
So my sheet does what the Skill Calc does, it's just that EVE does not agree :(
What am I doing wrong?
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.11.11 21:02:00 -
[141]
I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this.
Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4.
learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08.
actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 17*1.08 = 18.36.
Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2
learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 * 0.02) = 1.04.
actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72.
Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level
Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks
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Dak Brogan
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Posted - 2005.11.12 23:51:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Xaviar Rigo
I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this.
Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4.
learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08.
actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 17*1.08 = 18.36.
Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2
learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 * 0.02) = 1.04.
actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72.
Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level
Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks
In your calculation for Learning Level 4 you used the Memory level of 15 instead of 18.
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Xaviar Rigo
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Posted - 2005.11.13 22:32:00 -
[143]
Typo :).. corrected
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VoodooVane
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Posted - 2005.11.20 05:20:00 -
[144]
Nice thread, thanks Tripoli.
3asbeh.com
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Jordan Newton
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Posted - 2005.12.04 00:00:00 -
[145]
I found a problem on this calculations
Originally by: Xaviar Rigo
Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 13/11/2005 22:31:30
actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 17*1.08 = 18.36.
The same example
Memory 18
Learning 4
Learning Multipy = 4 * 1.02 = 1.08
Effective Atribute use while learning = 18 * 1.08 = 19.44
With learning 2
Learning factor = 2 * 1.02 = 1.04
Effective attribute use while learning = 18 * 1.04 = 18.72
* Note +2% of a value
- is equal to
- 1.02 * value
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.12.05 00:40:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Jordan Newton
I found a problem on this calculations
Originally by: Xaviar Rigo
actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 17*1.08 = 18.36.
The same example
Memory 18
Learning 4
Learning Multipy = 4 * 1.02 = 1.08
Effective Atribute use while learning = 18 * 1.08 = 19.44
His attibute was listed as 18 in-game. The in-game attributes listed include the Learning skill bonus already. So his actual attribute must be 18.xx. I have yet to find an example where Xaviar's forumla is incorrect.
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Siigari Kitawa
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Posted - 2005.12.12 15:24:00 -
[147]
It shows me it will only take me 8 days and some change to train to learning level 5.
You guys are confusing my head.
____
Click me
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Darthrenegade
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Posted - 2005.12.12 20:18:00 -
[148]
Cache cleared. |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2005.12.13 05:33:00 -
[149]
What don't you understand?
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Harold Griffin
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Posted - 2005.12.29 16:04:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Harold Griffin on 29/12/2005 16:05:52
The first post although true, does not include how 'tiered' skills are.
To put it simply: after the level 5 of a skill, the level 1 of the next skill that needs it as a prerequisite is a lot less.
Meaning, if you train the basic learning skills (spatial awareness etc) from level 4 to level 5, there it will take a relative long time to get to the payoff time.
But after you learned those from level 4 to level 5, the advanced learning skills are open for learning. And the level 1 to level 2 for those skills take LESS time then the level 4 to 5 of the basic one you just completed. So the payoff time for those new available skills is shorter.
This may influence your choice in whether or not to stop doing learning skill training.
IE. I personally don't really know if I like the game in over a year, so when the learning skills take more then a year to payoff on average, I'll stop and just do the rest in order without learning new learning skills. (seriously, why did they have the category and one of the skills both named as 'learning' that just makes it ten times harder to talk about all this then it should be. Change the name please!)
Now if say it takes for instance 1 year and a day to payoff for level 4 to 5 of the basic learning skills, But the level 1 skill behind it takes one day to get payoff, it is still wise for me to continue, because both taken together I would have a payoff that is less then only the first one.
part one
For example, take someone who has 15 for all attributes (and no learning) and learns spatial awareness 4->5 and all the others of the same kind as well (let's assume for a moment they don't influence eachother)
It will take 210745*5 skillpoints extra.
Your average attribute increase would be 1, which gives 1.5 extra skillpoint per minute.
So the payoff of this would be 702483 minutes and 20 secs on average
part 2
Clarity, which is a rank 3 skill, takes 750 skill points from level 0 to level 1. All the others of that kind as well.
Again, if you do all 5, the atribute would be raised on average of 1. And will give 1.5 extra skillpoints per minute.
But the payoff for this would be only 2500 minutes.
part 3
Now if you take both together, you have a total skillpoints you invest: 5*(210745+750) = 1057475.
Your attributes are 2 increased, so on average 2 * 1,5 = 3 extra skillpoints per minute.
The payoff time for doing both in sequence and treating them as one is thus: 352491 minutes and 40 seconds.
conclusion
So for deciding whether or not to continue with learning, you must not only look at the skills level itself, but also what the skill levels after that are able to give you. In Dutch the word used for this is "disconteren" but I'm not really sure about the english word.
If you understand this principle, you'll make a better decision about when to learn and when not to learn, since you can determine the exact time when you don't want to learn anymore for your reasons (ie, presume the example above and if you decide: if it takes over 50000 minutes to payoff for all the learning skills together, you now know you should continue learning, whereas if you didn't use the method, you'd not know you'd actually be better off learning).
I'm not really good at explaining, but I hope it's clear.
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