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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.03.24 03:34:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Silver Bird Have you thought of making a chart that shows how long it would take to recoup training times per level of learning skills?
I've thought about it, but it would have to be a dynamic list, where you input your attributes and the chart would do all the calculating for the various times. Problem is that the true payoff is determined by what you're training. Another large factor is if you're trying to pay off one or two attributes. To produce a proper chat would be a huge amount of work.
In my personal opinion, you only need to know two numbers: Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 3 to 4: about 9 months. Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 4 to 5: over 3.5 years. ---
Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained. |
Dimitri H
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:17:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Silver Bird Have you thought of making a chart that shows how long it would take to recoup training times per level of learning skills?
I've thought about it, but it would have to be a dynamic list, where you input your attributes and the chart would do all the calculating for the various times. Problem is that the true payoff is determined by what you're training. Another large factor is if you're trying to pay off one or two attributes. To produce a proper chat would be a huge amount of work.
In my personal opinion, you only need to know two numbers: Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 3 to 4: about 9 months. Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 4 to 5: over 3.5 years.
Hey, for us new people, what would you think the combined payoff from having no learnings to the adved learns to 3 would be?
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:55:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/03/2006 17:55:26
Originally by: Tripoli
Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Tripoli, if you are still watching this forums page, could you give me a list of the ranks' sp levels. You gave rank 1 & 3 above, and I'd like the others if you could.
The SP levels are simply multiplied by the rank.
The rank 1 SP levels are:
Level 1: 250 Level 2: 1,414 Level 3: 8,000 Level 4: 45,255 Level 5: 256,000
To figure out what the Rank(x) SP levels are, simply multiply those numbers by x. Example: A rank(14) level 4 skill requires 45,255 * 14 = 633,570 skill points.
Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Also, could you give me a formula for breaking minutes into days, hours, minutes, seconds. Thank you.
D = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 / 24 ) H = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 ) - ( D * 24 ) M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 24 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) S = RoundDown ( Minutes * 60 ) - ( M * 60 ) - ( H * 60 * 60 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 * 60 )
[ RoundDown means to round the result down to the nearest whole integer. ]
So, X minutes = D:H:M:S
Found a small typo:
M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 24 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 )
should be
M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 60 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 )
Would also like to take the moment to thank you Tripoli for doing all these calculations. They are very helpful.
--- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.03.25 00:38:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Found a small typo:
M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 24 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 )
should be
M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 60 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 )
Whoops. I'll get that fixed. ---
Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained. |
Camilla Ashiya
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Posted - 2006.03.27 12:01:00 -
[215]
I've just started playing eve and its all so overwhelming how deep it is :P But i was wondering if someone could do the math for me...as in how long the payoff would be to train all the advance learning skills to lvl 2 vs. lvl 3 (learning itself would be at 5)
thanks alot, cam
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.03.28 01:40:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Camilla Ashiya I've just started playing eve and its all so overwhelming how deep it is :P But i was wondering if someone could do the math for me...as in how long the payoff would be to train all the advance learning skills to lvl 2 vs. lvl 3 (learning itself would be at 5)
thanks alot, cam
The payoff for training all 5 advanced learning skills from: Level 1 to 2: 7 days 8 hours 24 minutes and 50 seconds Level 2 to 3: 41 days 13 hours 49 minutes and 41 seconds Level 3 to 4: 235 days 4 hours 41 minutes 49 seconds ---
Skill Collector Level 276 skills trained. |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.03.29 04:58:00 -
[217]
Edited by: Tripoli on 29/03/2006 05:00:04
I worked out a new way to calculate your actual attributes based on the truncated attributes listed in EVE and your Learning skill level.
Now, the easiest way is the way I stated before using a RoundUp function: ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)))*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)) In Excel: =ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)),0)*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))
Since some people can't use a RoundUp function, I developed an IF/THEN/ELSE function that uses RoundDown: IF ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)))*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))<Truncated_Attrib THEN ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))+1)*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)) ELSE ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)))*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)) In Excel: =IF(ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)),0)*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))<Truncated_Attrib,ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))+1,0)*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)),ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)),0)*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)))
I hope someone finds this useful. ---
Skill Collector Level 277 skills trained. |
Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.03.29 11:15:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 29/03/2006 11:22:36
Originally by: Tripoli
ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02)))*(1+(Learning_Lv*0.02))
Your calculation seems to be wrong Tripoli.
With level 5 Learning Skill, it presently reads;
ROUNDUP ( ( TA / 1.1 ) * 1.1 )
But that will always = your starting TA
Did you mean to have it as;
( ROUNDUP ( TA / 1.1 ) ) * 1.1
Or am I mistaken?
Edit: Ah.. I follow you now. ROUNDUP is a function of what follows in the next set of brackets and automatically takes precedence over the next multiplier. No problem.
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Fehid
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Posted - 2006.04.05 14:46:00 -
[219]
Sorry if this has already been posted, I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it anywhere.
Based off of Tripoli's original formula (thanks!), you can calculate your starting attributes using:
Base = (Actual_Value/(1+Learning_Lv * 0.02)) - Basic_Skill_Lv - Adv_Skill_Lv - Implant_Bonus
Actual_Value is the non-truncated value that can be found using the formula a few posts up.
The resulting values all add up to 39 for both of my characters, so hopefully it is accurate.
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Anestasia Prime
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Posted - 2006.04.08 03:53:00 -
[220]
I don't know wether to Argh!! or Sigh!! Tripoli if I got your calculations correct I would take not just one more year but more then THREE years to get to the same level if I were an Achura Monk +3P +2I. And it doesn't even matter if I go a path of Combat or non-Com., it just takes longer to train if I'm not that particular Achura. I almost wish I didn't read your highly informative posts.
Since I'm new to this I don't think it would be too bad if I rolled my character again. |
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.10 03:52:00 -
[221]
If you want to reroll your character, you pretty much need to do it within a month or two. Any longer and it can take years to make any difference in your overall progress. ---
Skill Collector Level 278 skills trained. |
Naevius
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Posted - 2006.04.10 19:48:00 -
[222]
The payoff calculations are complicated by the fact that the first levels of the advanced learning skills are relatively quick to train, which makes the 5th level of the basic learning skills more valuable in terms of payoff...
-------------------------------------------------- The man who says he is willing to meet you halfway is usually a poor judge of distance. |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.12 01:01:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Naevius The payoff calculations are complicated by the fact that the first levels of the advanced learning skills are relatively quick to train, which makes the 5th level of the basic learning skills more valuable in terms of payoff...
Quite true. The advanced learning skills more or less make the basic ones essential to have at level 5. Of course, this still assumes you care about your training speed over the long term. Remember, despite the common notion that these are a must-train, they are not. ---
Skill Collector Level 278 skills trained. |
DOGNOSH
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Posted - 2006.04.20 14:46:00 -
[224]
excellent thread tripoli
so going on the above basis that lvl5 payoff becomes desireable since it allows you to learn adv. learning skills,same again when we get elite skills?
and do you know anymore about elite skills? when?
my guess would be elite memory skill requires standard+advanced mem skills to be at 5 but also learning to be at 5(unlike requirement for adv. learning skills)
========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:06:00 -
[225]
Well, sadly there are no Elite Learning Skills in the newest rendition of the EVE item database, so at this point there's really no reason to believe they will ever be released.
Truth be told, Elite Learning Skills are almost entirely a figment of my dreams and imagination, yet something which I am constantly trying to convince CCP to implement. The latest from the devs states that they have no intention of releasing these skills, in fact they wish they could undo releasing the advanced skills.
What's done is done, I say, and as I've shown in a couple other threads, now that it is done, adding more is in fact the solution. I'll keep on plugging for them. Some day CCP will see the wisdom of my reasoning. ---
Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained. |
DOGNOSH
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:50:00 -
[226]
Edited by: DOGNOSH on 21/04/2006 08:51:06 why do they regret releasing Adv. learning skills? because peeps learn stuff quicker? are they worried players will run out of skills to learn?
imho they should put these skills out as a reward for long timers(which i am not)to allow them to reduce learning times for their RANK 8 and above skills they now have
EVE,like all other games,is a fad that will be replaced soon with a better online space sim,so CCP will slowly rely more and more on long term players(CCP's bread and butter)
and proof of that is in the fact that I play online and read up on PCs(hardware & software) yet until 2 days before i started my trial i never ever heard of EVE (hardly any sites at all mention EVE)
========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.22 14:53:00 -
[227]
Originally by: DOGNOSH why do they regret releasing Adv. learning skills?
Because they feel too many people are complaining about the "grind" of training them. I think that's utterly ridiculous, personally. It's not like you have to train them. And like I always say, the payoff for training them is quite a long time. ---
Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained. |
Valdenous Dos
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Posted - 2006.04.24 00:57:00 -
[228]
Edited by: Valdenous Dos on 24/04/2006 00:58:18 Final Call Ok - I like to have never figured this out from the posts here since it was spread across them all.
Main Formula: SP_for_next_level / (Primary_Attribute + (Secondary_Attribute / 2)) = total_minutes
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Micheal Cassio
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Posted - 2006.04.24 01:36:00 -
[229]
So tripoli, when you say "pay off" times, do you mean that is the amount of time that i save by training these skillz up to level 5, like is that the amount of time cut off of all the other skills training time after all the learning skills are trained to level five?
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.24 04:27:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Micheal Cassio So tripoli, when you say "pay off" times, do you mean that is the amount of time that i save by training these skillz up to level 5, like is that the amount of time cut off of all the other skills training time after all the learning skills are trained to level five?
Payoff time isn't the amount of time you save, because the amount of time you save is based on how long you play. Rather, payoff time is how long it takes you to make up for the time you spent training learning skills. ---
Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained. |
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Micheal Cassio
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Posted - 2006.04.24 14:24:00 -
[231]
so what your saying is that the "pay off" time is the amount of time it takes to train the learing skills?
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.24 23:27:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Micheal Cassio so what your saying is that the "pay off" time is the amount of time it takes to train the learing skills?
No...
Payoff = (SP invested in Learning Skills) / (Average improvement in training speed)
---
Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained. |
AlmaLee Watson
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Posted - 2006.04.26 16:04:00 -
[233]
Quick Question: Evegeek tells me a skill takes 21 days or so to train. Ingame, I see that it takes 23 days. I was recently podded and lost some +1 implants for all attributes. However, I replaced them. Is there some reason why the implants wouldn't have "kicked in"? I'm positive I'm entering everything into evegeek correctly. I've done it many times before. Thanks
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.27 00:43:00 -
[234]
First of all, you'd need to make sure you or EVEGeek are using the right attributes, that is the non-truncated ones. If you are, good.
If that's not the problem, then I'd suggest refreshing your skill sheet. To do this, simply switch skills. This updates all your information in the database and may correct the time remaining. ---
Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained. |
Jin Jemai
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Posted - 2006.04.29 01:44:00 -
[235]
Tripoli, I've seen the payoff times at the front of this thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me the payoff times for training the advanced learning skills from 1-4, you only show from 4-5. I suck at math so figuring out the numbers isnt an option for me :P
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.04.29 04:14:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Tripoli on 29/04/2006 04:14:48
You're so close to the answer you almost stepped on it.
Look farther up this page at reply #161.
Edit: Well, make that the previous page. ---
280 of 312 skills trained. |
Jin Jemai
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Posted - 2006.04.29 07:06:00 -
[237]
Tyvm tripoli :) Judging by that I think I'll just aim for 3 and leave it at that. Cheers.
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Elune Ferret
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Posted - 2006.05.02 07:13:00 -
[238]
Now I've been looking this theread throug, looking for a spreadsheet like the one made by Lachenlaud. Last one he released was a version 12.10 This spread sheet is actually very good, but quite outdated since last update was 7. juli 2005. Doesn't anyone care to lift the burden of that work? If noone else I will, would just hate to ruin this, so I'll be needing a lot of teaching as how to find the new skills, I see we have 312, not 281 skills. And I bet there's loads more to work on. If no one want's to lift the workload, then atleast help me work it out. if you'd like a copy send me an email and I'll send it to you, or go to the front pages and look for the link. [email protected]
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Calynus
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Posted - 2006.05.12 17:35:00 -
[239]
Tripoli:
First off I'd like to thank you for the excellent analysis of this.
Secondly, I'm wondering if your analysis on the payoff of Adv Learning 5 is taking into account if you were training all of them.
The reason I'm asking is that I (stupidly) only took the default Intelligence for Gallente (base 6). With Learning 5 and Logic 4 and a +3 implant, I have 19.80 Intelligence. I have been putting off a lot of skills that have Intelligence as the primary attribute because those skills are slow to train up. If I were to train Logic 5, and focus mainly on skills that have Intelligence as a primary attribute for some time, when would the payoff be realised? I'm seriously considering sinking the 13d, 18h into it but if the payoff is a couple years out, it probably isn't worth it.
You have the math floating around in your head so I figured this would take you no time at all to figure out.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.13 01:17:00 -
[240]
My calculations are based on perfect circumstances with even training between all 5 attrbiutes, and the payoff times I list are based on training all 5 skills to level 5. Just training up 1 attribute (the primary one) to level 5, will pay off in 399 days. ---
280 of 312 skills trained. |
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