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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Calynus
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Posted - 2006.05.13 16:16:00 -
[241]
 Originally by: Tripoli
My calculations are based on perfect circumstances with even training between all 5 attrbiutes, and the payoff times I list are based on training all 5 skills to level 5. Just training up 1 attribute (the primary one) to level 5, will pay off in 399 days.
Thanks. I'm going to take the plunge then. Certainly on the two main attributes for what I want to do with this character: Intelligence and Perception.
Thanks again for your work and the amazing guide above. It was extremely helpful in prodding me to stick out the Adv Learnings to level 4. :)
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Beb0p
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Posted - 2006.05.15 16:24:00 -
[242]
What Should i do after i get my learning mastered?
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.15 23:27:00 -
[243]
Whatever you want to do. I'd start with basic skills like frigate, cruiser, engineering, electronics, etc.
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280 of 312 skills trained. |
Destoration
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:12:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Tripoli
Edited by: Tripoli on 29/03/2006 06:58:07
The Learning skill from level 4 to level 5: 243-406 Days (varies a lot player to player)
The Advanced learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 3 Years, 235 Days, 11 Hours, 3 Minutes, and 38 Seconds
The 5 (not yet released) Elite learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds
Is the Elite Learning Skills a confirmed add-on? I cannot find any In-Dev/Testing/Drawingboard examples of this. But if this is fact, it would make lvl 5 tier 2 learning skills very high on my priority list.
-Sorry if this was already discussed
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.19 02:17:00 -
[245]
No, the Elite Learning skills are a dream of mine which I shall forever pressure CCP to bring into reality. There is nothing in the database above the so-called advanced skills, and the devs have stated they have no plans for adding more learning skills, in fact they wish they could get rid of them. I'll never stop pressing to get them added.
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280 of 312 skills trained. |
Stephen HB
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Posted - 2006.05.25 11:29:00 -
[246]
What do we want?
Breakeven on Elite Learning Skills!
When do we want it?
2023!
----------
Signature core stabiliser II activated. This sig is immune to mod tampering! Rawr!
EVE Tracking Guide |
Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.05.26 01:20:00 -
[247]
You ever see my thread about Uber and Omega Learning Skills? Linkage 
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Bruder Falke
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Posted - 2006.05.31 17:01:00 -
[248]
I got an amarr ni kunni
this means basic:
int 5
per 7
cha 8
will 4
mem 6
my basic skills are:
analytic mind 3
spatial awareness 3
empathy 2
iron will 3
instant recall 4
i got 2 implants
int +3
mem +2
with the formula
( Base + Basic_Skill_Lv + Adv_Skill_Lv + Implant_Bonus ) * ( 1+ ( Learning_Lv * 0.02 ) )
my skills were:
int 11,88
per 10,8
cha 10,8
will 7,56
mem 12,96
my charactersheet says
int 11
per 12
cha 12
will 12
mem 12
where is the failure?
thnx for your help
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.06.01 00:04:00 -
[249]
You just didn't add in all the various bonuses you get to your attributes during character creation.
Your base attributes are actually:
Intelligence: 5
Perception: 9
Charisma: 10
Willpower: 9
Memory: 6
And with the skills and implants you listed and Learning level 4 your attributes are currently:
Intelligence: 11.88
Perception: 12.96
Charisma: 12.96
Willpower: 12.96
Memory: 12.96
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282 of 312 skills trained. |
Bruder Falke
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Posted - 2006.06.01 06:57:00 -
[250]
Thnx alot!!
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Commander Ashik
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Posted - 2006.06.04 11:47:00 -
[251]
Nice
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Ghalmaraz
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Posted - 2006.07.03 16:53:00 -
[252]
I just to thank you all for this info. As a new player it will certainly help me with my current player by boosting those skills and putting the other skills on hold until I catch up.
Great community of people I have discovered so far in this game.
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Trael Kasheer
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Posted - 2006.07.19 20:33:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Tripoli
For some reason it's alawys a little tough to explain Rank.
I have been trying to find the answer to this question since I started playing all of 3 or 4 days ago.
Regardless of how it factors into training, what purpose or benefit does the rank of a skill serve? When I created my character he had several skills that were listed as rank 2 level 1 due to (I'm assuming) overlaps in training in character creation. The only effect that I have noticed from this is that it takes longer to train up those as the skill levels rise. Can anyone shed any light on what benefit, if any, a skill rank does confer?
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Guurzak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 13:30:00 -
[254]
Tripoli, I'd like to propose an alternate formulation for "payoff". An earlier poster (don't recall if it was in this thread or another one) is correct that to figure a breakpoint at the point where total number of useful skillspoints is equal is to overlook the lost utility of the skills you didn't have while you were learning. However, he simply doubled payoff time to account for this, which is an even more grievous oversimplification.
If we're looking to measure actual utility gained from skills, I think we have to look at the area under the skillpoint curve. Fortunately, no calculus is required since we're dealing with straight-line curves: The area under the default curve (no learning) is a simple trapezoid, while the area under the trained curve is the sum of a rectangle (while learning) plus that of a steeper trapezoid once the learning is done.
How does it affect your formulas if "payoff" is calculated as parity in utility rather than parity in skillpoints?
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Krav
Egad Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.11 17:51:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Guurzak
Fortunately, no calculus is required since we're dealing with straight-line curves: The area under the default curve (no learning) is a simple trapezoid, while the area under the trained curve is the sum of a rectangle (while learning) plus that of a steeper trapezoid once the learning is done.
How does it affect your formulas if "payoff" is calculated as parity in utility rather than parity in skillpoints?
We could use calculus if we want to It'd just simply down to the simple shapes you're describing, I think. Not sure I understand what you mean by "utility" vs parity in SP.
Krav
=====
Close encounter of the Hijack kind? Impossible.
Unless it is as bad as I think...
And if they were out to get m-- |
Yabram Vive
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:15:00 -
[256]
Ok people hope you can tell me what to do...
I¦ve been playing for 6 months or so. Talking to a fellow player he told me that it would be wise for me to start a brand new caracter cause when I started playing I did not get quite well the Atrib details and make the wrong choice of race and all that.
My actual caracter has 3.6 mill SP and the following atrib:
Intel 11
Perc 16
Char 18
Will 9
Mem 11
Thats with : +3 memory and + 3 perc implants
Skills only basic learning - all at level 4 except empathy at 2 - Learning is at 4
Now... my personal desire is to keep doing for some time LVL 4 missions as I¦m doing and some time from now maybe PVP or 0.0 rat hunting. I also intend to play for some LONG time, if real life allows it.
Well, this player suggested me to start a new caracter Caldari-Achura-Custom with:
intel 10
per 11
char 3
will 6
mem 9
Then just keep on playing w my actual caracter and train the new one. When it is ready ... switch. Thats what he suggested. It does not sound bad, but I only regret the waste of time, thats all. And that¦s why I¦m asking for more opinions. Well hope to hear from you guys.
Thanks in advance and greetings from Argentina.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2006.08.25 11:54:00 -
[257]
Having just read the whole thread I can tell you the answer is in here.
If you have to reroll, reroll within 2 months or it will take many years to get to the payoff. Stick to your character and don't sweat it.
As for being the wrong race, you can train the other racial ship skills or just stick to the current one you have. In 6 months balance will have changed and you would be retraining again.
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Areconus
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Posted - 2006.09.03 20:37:00 -
[258]
Ehh Tripoli since i totally suck at this skill math crap could you please work this crap out for me?:
Highest possible starting attribute is 15 in willpower for amarr, making the highest possible willpower number a 31?
31. sumthin i dont know....
so basically 31 is the absolute highest attribute any1 could have in any skill atm, and if elite skills ever came out it would be around 37 correct? then if they made +7 implants that makes 39...so could you please calculate how many sp youd be training per day with an attribute at 39
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Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.09.04 03:26:00 -
[259]
Assuming 15 really is the highest base attribute possible, maxed learning skills and a +5 implant could yeild a 33.00 attribute. Elite learning skills make that 38.50 and a +7 implant gets you to 40.70. *drools*
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291 of 315 skills trained. |
Areconus
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Posted - 2006.09.05 01:06:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Areconus on 05/09/2006 01:13:56
Edited by: Areconus on 05/09/2006 01:08:47
Actually we were both wrong...the skill planner i was using didnt factor in the schooling w/e to add some of the attribute pts. I believe the highest possible attribute at creation is 17 in the willpower category for Amarr.
10 base +3 +4 for the category. Now, that comes to 35.2 with max skills and crap...and i suppose over 40 if elite skills ever came out...but who would want that anyways unless you wanted to try to catch Dr. Caymus after a few years right?
Edit: above...u said +5 implant would yield 33, then elite skills would yield 38.5....wouldnt it actually be 33+5=38+2=40x1.1=44?
2ndEdit(lol): Also since 17 is highest base, that makes 17+7+15=39
39*1.1*1.1=47.19 highest attribute
btw at this site, ,Linkage...if you choose deteis, then max it out for highest possible intel, you will see that max is 15 correct? But...strangely after you have already picked your 5 pts to spend plus your schooling, once you pick the science category it raises to 16....now why is that?
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Mordru Maligante
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Posted - 2006.09.05 05:16:00 -
[261]
Yabram, I'd roll another character if I were you. Pop a +3 mem and +3 int implant into your new character and go to work on the learning skills in the most efficient order. Pop +3 perception, charisma, and willpower in only after you begin training those attributes advanced learning skills. You'll spend about 2 months training learning skills, but afterwards, you'll train about 1.5 million sp/month roughly. In 5 months, you will surpass your current character.
In the meantime, have fun and fly your current character and make the isk necessary to fund the implants and the new skill books for your alt. In about 5 months or so, you can trade off your current main or sell for ISK if that's CCP approved or keep it as an alt.
just my 2 isk.
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Mr Xofar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.05 12:41:00 -
[262]
Many months ago, I made a training calculator with VBA/Excel. I've since stopped hosting the file on that site, but I still have the file and I'm now hosting it on a Tripod.com site for free.
Visit the site here. The calculator is the only file I have on there right now, and the site is quite cheesy, but hey, it's free and it took me <10 minutes to put it up.
Mr Xofar's EVE
Anyway, tell me if you like the calculator or if you have any problems with it.
[---------------------------------------------]
Incompetent |
missy tricks
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Posted - 2006.09.13 18:25:00 -
[263]
Wish i would've known about attributes before creating my character...int-19,perc-17with implant,wil-22,char-15
Guess it helps to read eve forums before creating character ,since my perception is low.Hay maybe CCP could take away 2-3 from charisma and put it into perception..lol ,yah i know dumb request,oh well what can you do,since i want my character combat oriented,well least my learning skills are at 2mil.
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Vendetator
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Posted - 2006.10.08 14:23:00 -
[264]
Hi, I have made a website that contains all the programs that I could find on the web and the forums about EVE. I hope this way all of the players that need them will not search numeros websites but find them all in one place, well almost all.
The web site is not at 100% there is more work to be done but at this stage anyone can download programs like:
-Ship quick fit
-character/skill managers
-eve maps / NPC security maps
-miner tools
-ore/mineral calculators (for miners and constructors)
I hope you will find this usefool, BEST REGARDS TO THE PROGRAMERS THAT MADE THE PROGRAMS. So good luck and fly safe!
Best regards!
Morientez
http://loger.byethost33.com/
PS: If anyone has other programs or download adresses I will be glad to upload them on the site you will find the contact detalies on the website.
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Slaughteruall
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Posted - 2006.10.08 19:44:00 -
[265]
Read my post here about his programs.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=406387&page=1
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Zoxia
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.10.24 09:04:00 -
[266]
Edited by: Zoxia on 25/10/2006 11:53:19
nm
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The Fates
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.04 22:43:00 -
[267]
It has been some time since I approached the subject of learning skills. At the present time I have Learning V and all advanced Learning skills to 4, including charisma.
Some time ago, in a different thread that I don't care to revive, Tripoli pointed out to me that the time you save training is non-linear. I had asked him about the diminishing returns of increasing attributes, and while his calculations here in this thread are correct based on skill points per minute, which is a linear progression, and can be determined fairly easily and accurately with the information provided, I was at the time interested in time... and now that my character has progressed to this level I am further interested in the actual time saved rather than the increase in skill points per minute. Mainly because, its the time to train a skill that has more effect on the "omg this is taking so long" problem.
So, while I am not going to explain it completely, for lack of patience with the issue after playing with the numbers for hours on my own character, I will say that I have a method I would like examined for accuracy. I have of course done this for my own character, and welcome you to do the same for yours.
I would like to know if there is an error in the calculation somewhere... I'm sure if I leave this here for a while that someone (cough) will look at it to see if it is accurate.
Minutes spent training learning skill
1 / sp/m = time to train 1 sp
Do this twice, once before and after
After - Before = minutes saved per sp trained
Minutes spent / Minutes saved per sp trained = sp to train to regain minutes spent
sp to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = minutes to regain minutes spent
Just for an example...
Clarity IV -> V
632,235 Skill Points needed.
Current sp/m 39.05
sp/m after: 40.15
Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 16190.396927016645326504481434059
Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.025608194622279129321382842509603
Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.024691358024691358024691358024691
Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000916836597587799
Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 17658977.5862063 SP needed to regain minutes spent
SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 436024.13793102
Which is about 43.25 Weeks of Training Perception as Primary, Willpower as Secondary to break even in TIME.
Is this correct or flawed...?
Thanks in advance for any answers. 
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Tripoli
XenTech
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:27:00 -
[268]
My head's hurting a little too much to find the flaw in your math right now, but allow me to vastly simplify the calculation for you.
Payoff time in minutes equals the number of SP invested divided by the improvement in your skill training speed per minute.
So, if you invest 632,235 SP in training an Advanced Learning skill from 4 to 5 (and you have Learning 5), your training speed (assuming it was the primary attribute) goes up by exactly 1.1 SP/min. Therefore, it will take you 635,235 / 1.1 minutes (574,759.09 minutes or 399 days 3 hours 19 minutes and 5 seconds) to payoff the training.
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295 of 315 skills trained. |
The Fates
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.11.09 02:49:00 -
[269]
So, if you invest 632,235 SP in training an Advanced Learning skill from 4 to 5 (and you have Learning 5), your training speed (assuming it was the primary attribute) goes up by exactly 1.1 SP/min. Therefore, it will take you 635,235 / 1.1 minutes (574,759.09 minutes or 399 days 3 hours 19 minutes and 5 seconds) to payoff the training.
...
Right... to get your skill points back would take you
635,235 / 1.1 = 577,486.36
Minutes of training that to get your skill points back. I agree with this and have for some time.
Unfortunately how long it takes to get my skill points back isn't the question.
The question is, how long does it take to get my time back?
For example, again, if I spend 16190.39 minutes to train clarity IV to V, how long will it be until I save 16190.39 minutes?
I currently believe with my attributes that would be 43.25 weeks, even though it would take longer to get the acutal points back that were spent training clarity from IV to V.
Another example...
Clarity IV -> V
632,235 Skill Points needed.
Current sp/m 39.05
sp/m after: 40.15
Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 16190.396927016645326504481434059
Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.025608194622279129321382842509603
Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.024691358024691358024691358024691
Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000916836597587799
Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 17658977.5862063 SP NEEDED
SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 436024.13793102
436024.13793102 / 60 / 24 / 7 = 43.25 (approximate) weeks.
BUT lets say that my attributes are different.
Clarity IV -> V
632,235 Skill Points needed.
Current sp/m 37.05
sp/m after: 38.15
Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 17064.372469635627530364372469636
Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.026990553306342780026990553306343
Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.026212319790301441677588466579292
Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000778233516041338349402086727
Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 21927059.318181818181818181819598 SP NEEDED
SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 574759.09090909
574759.09090909 / 60 / 24 / 7 = 57.019 (approximate) weeks.
What is interesting to me is that it would take longer to save as much time with a lower sp/m rate, when there is, of course, a diminishing return on the reduction of time to train a skill as attributes, and therefore, as sp/m rises.
Brain exercise, indeed... Again I still must ask if this is correct. Time allowing I will attempt to prove it, but even proof in isolation needs to be verified. If its wrong, I'd like to know where it went wrong and what the correct answer is.
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Valerek
Gallente
PhoenixCorp
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Posted - 2006.11.09 20:00:00 -
[270]
Interesting guide.
I think peeps are getting way into the skill points calculations biz. While I respect what Tripoli has done, I think that peeps should look into what paths they want for their characters.
I started Eve off not knowing a whole lot about Learning skills. I did know that the quickest route to start making ISK (and therefore be able to buy MORE skillbooks) was to mine...and mine and mine. I wanted to better my character and looked at what the skills provided, what they did, how they complimented each other, how they enhanced my ship, etc.
I think I started to run Learning skills right when I hit Mining V. Then I got concerned that I should do the Learning skills first...
Anyways. I am currently sitting on 10mill skillpoints off 111 skills. That's after a 5 month hiatus from Eve. I average 1.3mill sp per month (ballpark figures) and I am a solid player in skill sets.
My word of advice to noobs: pick a path, then get the skills that support that path. Don't worry about "payoff" and all that other baloney. Chances are you won't be playing Eve 399 days in the future. Then again, you might.
Enjoy the game. |
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