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Tripoli	Posted - 2004.05.19 06:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Tripoli on 07/10/2004 19:07:55 Here's how your attributes work. This is what most people don't seem to quite understand, so read carefully. The catch is that the 'Learning' skill does not do exactly what it claims. Instead of decreasing training time by 2%, it actually adds 2% more to your attribs per level. eg. Base intel 5 with Anayltical Mind lv 5 gives you 10.0 attrib points. Add learning lv 5 to that and it's (5+5)+((5+5)5.02) = 11.0 Add an Basic Implant and it's (5+5+3)+((5+5+3)5.02) = 14.3 You'll note the +3.3 attrib gain for adding a +3.0 implant. Also, you'll notice that your attributes are always displayed as whole numbers. They are rarely actually whole. The number is TRUNCATED, not rounded. For instance, my Memory, which displays as 20, is actually 20.9. Now, you simply plug your correct attribs into the forumla: (SPNeeded - CurrentSP) / (PriAttrib + (SecAttrib / 2)) This will yield the total number of minutes remaining. eg. Missile Launcher Operation training from 66,096 to 256,000 SP. Primary attrib is Perception, Secondary is Willpower. I have Spatial Awareness lv 5, Iron Will lv 5, Learning lv 5, and both relevent Basic implants. My Perception is (4+5+3)+((4+5+3)5.02) = 13.2 My Willpower is (7+5+3)+((7+5+3)5.02) = 16.5 (256000-66096)/(13.2+(16.5/2)) = 8853.33 minutes or 6 Days, 3 Hours, 33 Minutes, 20 Seconds. This EXACTLY matches what EVE is telling me is left on this skill....to the second. To Go To Level 5, Or Not To Go To Level 5? Constently debated is how whorthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer. OK, using the Missile Launcher Operation skill example in the previous section, with all lv 5 skills and basic implants, the time remaining is 6 Days 3 Hours 33 Minutes 20 Seconds. If I change my skills all down to lv 4, this becomes 6 Days 18 Hours 43 Minutes 42 Seconds. This is a 10% increase in speed for having the lv 5 skills! That'll knock 3 days off of the average person's Industrial lv 5 training. If we just take Learning down to lv 4, it becomes 6 Days 6 Hours 11 Seconds, a 1.65% increase in speed. Now, based on that, and assuming it takes you exactly 6 days to train Learning from lv 4 to lv 5, this would only be beneficial if you played EVE, after having trained it, for approximately 140 days. It should be noted that the lower you base attribute, the more beneficial higher levels of the learning skills are. Edit: New thread started here which covers in deapth how long it takes to pay off training the advanced learning skills to level 5. ---
Tank CEO	Posted - 2004.05.19 06:10:00 - [2] Just goto Eve-I.com and use their skill training time calculator. =) ---
Tank CEO	Posted - 2004.05.19 06:13:00 - [3] I like learning skills. Say I got those adv learning skills to lvl 5 (mem and intell) id have say 28 Memory and 24 Intell, give or take depending on the learning effect AND, thats with just + 3 implants, it will take me i think 10 days or less to learn the other 2 perc/will adv learning skills to lvl 5, (each). =D ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.05.19 06:29:00 - [4] Reguarding the Eve-I calculator....it ain't quite right (though it is fairly close). My calculations are exact. Reguarding the advanced learning skills.....you can bet I'll be training those up pronto when they arrive. I can't wait. ---
Adrastos	Posted - 2004.05.20 08:58:00 - [5] exellent post, this gets a "sticky" EVE Forum Rules - Contact the Moderator Team
SKiNNiEH	Posted - 2004.05.20 21:00:00 - [6] Tripoli rules... as it turns out, i dont know **** about skills :).. This helped! -------
Lord Wimbishi	Posted - 2004.05.25 08:50:00 - [7] Edited by: Lord Wimbishi on 25/05/2004 09:23:31 Edited by: Lord Wimbishi on 25/05/2004 09:05:48 Tripoli you calculations maybe exact but not worked out in the function of points on EVE you think they do.. the learning skill does NOT multiply your attribute points. it shortens the training skill points you NEED to train in order to get to the next level. I wish it would get fixed in game as the skill itself says 2% reduction in skill training time not enhancing the attribute points you currently have. Either calculation works I suppose as the attribute points don't have fractions or thereof as any other modifier in the game has. Reposted from another sticky. This is an exact formula I have came up with to resolve this issue. (P + I)+ Lsk) + (S + I) + Lsk / 2) = T, (Sktp / T) - Lsk%) / 60)/ 24)= Ts P rimary attrib I mplants Lsk Learning attribute skill S econdary attrib T otal Sktp Skill total points needed to train Sot Sum of Total Lsk% Learning skill percentage and / is the divided sign. make sure you do the math between the ( ) first before continuing on in the chain. Ok this is how it works Take add your implant bonuses to your attribute scores then add your learning skill lvls. Then use your primary score as base, then halve your secondary attribute value and then add it to the primary to reach a total skill points per minute. example (10 int + 3)+ 5) + ( 8 mem + 3) +5 / 2) = 26 Now to figure how the rest comes in you must realise that those 'added' points are not really there and is a 'repensentation' of them not an actual value. take the total points that you need to train. To find that, you need to take the total points and minus it from the points you already have attained. dividing this sum by your training modifier which was derived from your attributes; will net you the amount of minutes it would take to train. Example: 45255 of 256000 to get to lvl 5. subtract 45225 from 256000 you get 210745. divide 210745 by 26. you get 8105.57 and on. You would take this sum finally subtracting your learning skill say like 10%. to get the true amount of skill point time you need to get that next level. 8105.57 subtract 10% for learning lvl5 = 7295.013 minutes to next level. To find the exact time needed you would begin to divide it by 60; representing 60 mins in the hour, and then by 24 representing the hours in a day to reach the total days and such of how long it will take. 7295.013 / 60 = 121.58 hours which the 58 would = around 32-34 minutes. and 121.58 / 24 = 5.065 days which would correspond to 5 days and 35 min or there of. the skill in question is an electronic skill with a rank of 1. To really simplify most of the issues with out busting a brain cell look up on www.eve-i.com for the skill training calulater. the biggest thing to remember when using it is to add only your raw begining attributes with your added implants. DO NOT add your learning skill lvl in as it already does this on the below areas of that chart. Only put the starting attribute points and your implant bonuses there leaving the rest up to the chart. You will find it is 100% accurate
Lachenlaud	Posted - 2004.05.25 12:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Lachenlaud on 25/05/2004 22:24:45 Originally by: Lord Wimbishi Tripoli you calculations maybe exact but not worked out in the function of points on EVE you think they do.. the learning skill does NOT multiply your attribute points. You'd be wrong then Wimbishi. It DOES boost your attributes. Wanna see it in action - here's an example: I have a base memory of 11 (eg - what my character started with. I have NO implants. I have trained the Instant Recall skill to 5. I have trained the learning skill to 5. Base (11) + Instant Recall (5) = 16. Now... my MEMORY shows in Eve at being 17. In reality what it really is goes as follows: ((B (11) + IR (5)) x (1 + (Learning (5) x 0.02))) -or- ((11 + 5) x (1 + (5 x 0.02))) = 17.6 Since eve truncates anything behind the decimal, you end up with a display value of 17. If you need further evidence, you can create an alt character, and do a little training on it and see it for yourself. Edit: To further educate you folks (as taken from my skills spreadsheet which is available for download from the link below my signature).... Originally by: Lord Wimbishi (10 int + 3)+ 5) + ( 8 mem + 3) +5 / 2) = 26 Now to figure how the rest comes in you must realise that those 'added' points are not really there and is a 'repensentation' of them not an actual value. take the total points that you need to train. To find that, you need to take the total points and minus it from the points you already have attained. dividing this sum by your training modifier which was derived from your attributes; will net you the amount of minutes it would take to train. Example: 45255 of 256000 to get to lvl 5. subtract 45225 from 256000 you get 210745. divide 210745 by 26. you get 8105.57 and on. You would take this sum finally subtracting your learning skill say like 10%. to get the true amount of skill point time you need to get that next level. 8105.57 subtract 10% for learning lvl5 = 7295.013 minutes to next level. ^^^ -overly complex and inaccurate- ^^^ vvv -correct way of doing things- vvv Skill points per level is calculated as follows: (((2^((2.5 x Level)-2.5)) x 250) x Rank) The ^ symbol means 'to the power of, which is exponential notation. This means that skill points per level per rank are NOT calculated simply by multiplying 250 by the level by the rank (250 x level x rank). A good example of this: If you have a Rank 1 skill and wish to get it to level 2, you would need 1415 skill points (not 1414 as might readily be assumed). If you use the formula with exponential notation, this works. If you do it with the second version as shown above, you end up one point shy, and in some cases you can be two points shy or even one point over. (Thanks again Mesa* for pointing this out to me when I was building my spreadsheet for that section!!)* [email protected] http://www.goi-eve.com/forums/ Check out the Eve Master Datasheet here!!
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.05.25 14:52:00 - [9] Couldn't have said it better myself, Lachenlaud. An example from my own attribs: Base Intelligence: 11 Implant: +4 Analytical Mind: level 5 Learning: level 5 11+4+5 = 20 and yet my attribute according to both my calculations AND EVE is 22.00 (11+4+5)*1.1 = 22 ---
Uggster	Posted - 2004.05.26 14:00:00 - [10] Great thread doods I have been dithering around getting more of these skills and doing the odd experiment myself but these are nice calculations.
DJ Hulredi	Posted - 2004.06.03 07:37:00 - [11] Good post get linkage Come Listen to: Eve Underground Operations Manager Learning is important
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2004.06.26 07:40:00 - [12] Just a side note, I suspect where the lvl 5 learning skills are goign to come into play, are when the advanced Cruisers and Battleships start to come out. With my Perception and Willpower Learning skills at lvl 4, and no implants, it will take me something on the order of a full month of training time just to go from lvl 4 Cruiser to lvl 5 Cruiser. If that's what the Destroyers require, then having lvl 5's in Perception and Willpower will make a significant idfference in reaching them. Harry Voyager
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2004.07.03 14:08:00 - [13] OK, I want to calculate my training time on smoe skills but I can't use these formulas since I don't remember my starting stats, is there an easy way to calculate that? ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2004.07.03 14:08:00 - [14] OK, I want to calculate my training time on smoe skills but I can't use these formulas since I don't remember my starting stats, is there an easy way to calculate that? ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Andrew Redburn	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:49:00 - [15] Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 09/07/2004 14:50:19 As posted by Tripoli: (SPNeeded - CurrentSP) / (PriAttrib + (SecAttrib / 2)) Simply use your current stats from your stats tab...
Andrew Redburn	Posted - 2004.07.09 14:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Andrew Redburn on 09/07/2004 14:50:19 As posted by Tripoli: (SPNeeded - CurrentSP) / (PriAttrib + (SecAttrib / 2)) Simply use your current stats from your stats tab...
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 13:46:00 - [17] The calculation rules above don't match with my actual situation: Want to train Caldari BS from lvl3 to lvl4 My attributes: 17-14-12-13-22 (Int-Per-Cha-Wil-Mem). For attrib. Int, Per, Wil and Mem I've +3.0-implants. Expected training time in Eve: more than 9 days + Training time in EVE-I (Training Time Calculator): 6 days + Any ideas where these big differencies comes from? A bug?
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 13:46:00 - [18] The calculation rules above don't match with my actual situation: Want to train Caldari BS from lvl3 to lvl4 My attributes: 17-14-12-13-22 (Int-Per-Cha-Wil-Mem). For attrib. Int, Per, Wil and Mem I've +3.0-implants. Expected training time in Eve: more than 9 days + Training time in EVE-I (Training Time Calculator): 6 days + Any ideas where these big differencies comes from? A bug?
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 13:50:00 - [19] To concretise my post above: My learning skills: Learning and Perception: lvl 5 all others: lvl 4
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 13:50:00 - [20] To concretise my post above: My learning skills: Learning and Perception: lvl 5 all others: lvl 4
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.07.12 15:27:00 - [21] God's Wrath, your attributes are actually 17.6 - 14.3 - 12.1 - 13.2 - 22.0 Using 14.3/13.2 in my forumla it will take you 9 days, 21 Hours, 40 Minutes, and 14 seconds to train Caldari Battleship from 64,000 SP up to 362,039 SP. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.07.12 15:27:00 - [22] God's Wrath, your attributes are actually 17.6 - 14.3 - 12.1 - 13.2 - 22.0 Using 14.3/13.2 in my forumla it will take you 9 days, 21 Hours, 40 Minutes, and 14 seconds to train Caldari Battleship from 64,000 SP up to 362,039 SP. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.07.12 15:28:00 - [23] Oh, and in case you were wondering, your base attributes are 9-5-7-5-13. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.07.12 15:28:00 - [24] Oh, and in case you were wondering, your base attributes are 9-5-7-5-13. ---
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 16:55:00 - [25] Tripoli, thx for your fast answer. I took all these informations into an Excel sheet and get now exactly the same results like you. So what I also learned that EVI-I.com calculates wrong (in that case -30%), ... bad for me
God's Wrath	Posted - 2004.07.12 16:55:00 - [26] Tripoli, thx for your fast answer. I took all these informations into an Excel sheet and get now exactly the same results like you. So what I also learned that EVI-I.com calculates wrong (in that case -30%), ... bad for me
Snorri	Posted - 2004.08.15 19:51:00 - [27] This is how i did it, i made a new char who have the most mem and int with mem beeing the priority. Caldari dietis it was. base is 7 mem 6 int, than choose the char to be industy man so you get +4 on mem for that. than spent all your 5 points on mem and int (+3 mem +2 mem) when you done this and chosen the right path (dont remember exacly but its the caldari bottom down left guy) you should get 14 mem and 11-12 int. Start than right away to train the Learning skills (which has the mem as primary attribute) train mem and int to lvl5 before starting anything else. this way you gain a whole lot....
Snorri	Posted - 2004.08.15 19:51:00 - [28] This is how i did it, i made a new char who have the most mem and int with mem beeing the priority. Caldari dietis it was. base is 7 mem 6 int, than choose the char to be industy man so you get +4 on mem for that. than spent all your 5 points on mem and int (+3 mem +2 mem) when you done this and chosen the right path (dont remember exacly but its the caldari bottom down left guy) you should get 14 mem and 11-12 int. Start than right away to train the Learning skills (which has the mem as primary attribute) train mem and int to lvl5 before starting anything else. this way you gain a whole lot....
ivar R'dhak	Posted - 2004.09.15 18:19:00 - [29] So what happens with the skill that is curently trained when you suspend(cancel) your account payment? Does that LVL 5 Battleship skill training I started right before the subscripiton expires continue or is everything halted? _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
ivar R'dhak	Posted - 2004.09.15 18:19:00 - [30] So what happens with the skill that is curently trained when you suspend(cancel) your account payment? Does that LVL 5 Battleship skill training I started right before the subscripiton expires continue or is everything halted? _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.16 06:09:00 - [31] To the best of my knowledge, the devs claim that training is halted. HOWEVER, as far as my experience and the experience of others suggests, training continues. For the record, I do not support training like that.....Games are best......when played. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.16 06:09:00 - [32] To the best of my knowledge, the devs claim that training is halted. HOWEVER, as far as my experience and the experience of others suggests, training continues. For the record, I do not support training like that.....Games are best......when played. ---
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.16 09:59:00 - [33] wait a minute i got 21 memory and learning lvl4 does that mean i have 8% extra atributes on it wish means, 22.68 is what i actually got why doesn t it show as 22 at least i got 13 hours left to learning 5 wish means i ll have 23.1 im doing this right or wrong my attributes right now are inl-20. precep-11. char-14. will-14. memo-21 after learning level 5 i assume they should be. inl-22. precep-12.1. char-15.4 will-15.4. memo-23.1
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.16 09:59:00 - [34] wait a minute i got 21 memory and learning lvl4 does that mean i have 8% extra atributes on it wish means, 22.68 is what i actually got why doesn t it show as 22 at least i got 13 hours left to learning 5 wish means i ll have 23.1 im doing this right or wrong my attributes right now are inl-20. precep-11. char-14. will-14. memo-21 after learning level 5 i assume they should be. inl-22. precep-12.1. char-15.4 will-15.4. memo-23.1
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.17 14:50:00 - [35] Well, it's hard to tell with your description. If your character sheet says 21, then you have somewhere between 21.00 and 21.99. If you post all your attributes, and any implants you have, we can figure out what your exact attribs are. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.17 14:50:00 - [36] Well, it's hard to tell with your description. If your character sheet says 21, then you have somewhere between 21.00 and 21.99. If you post all your attributes, and any implants you have, we can figure out what your exact attribs are. ---
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.17 16:40:00 - [37] Edited by: JarmenKell on 17/09/2004 16:42:58 Edited by: JarmenKell on 17/09/2004 16:42:35 Originally by: Tripoli Well, it's hard to tell with your description. If your character sheet says 21, then you have somewhere between 21.00 and 21.99. If you post all your attributes, and any implants you have, we can figure out what your exact attribs are. my attribute right not are in order intel-precep-charisma-will-memory 20.11.14.14.21. this is with all +3 implants without implants i would have 17.9.12.12.18 oh and right now i got learning level 5.
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.17 16:40:00 - [38] Edited by: JarmenKell on 17/09/2004 16:42:58 Edited by: JarmenKell on 17/09/2004 16:42:35 Originally by: Tripoli Well, it's hard to tell with your description. If your character sheet says 21, then you have somewhere between 21.00 and 21.99. If you post all your attributes, and any implants you have, we can figure out what your exact attribs are. my attribute right not are in order intel-precep-charisma-will-memory 20.11.14.14.21. this is with all +3 implants without implants i would have 17.9.12.12.18 oh and right now i got learning level 5.
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.18 04:45:00 - [39] It is not possible to have an attribute listed as 21 when you have learning level 5. Attribute points simply add like this: Base Attrib + Skill Level + Implant eg. 11 + 5 + 3 = 19 THEN you multiply that by your learning skill (level 5 10%) So, (11+5+3)1.1 = 20.90 which on your character sheet will display as 20. Adding 1 attrib point to that gets you (12+5+3)1.1 = 22.00, which displays as 22. Therefore it is not possible to have a 21.xx attribute with level 5 learning. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.18 04:45:00 - [40] It is not possible to have an attribute listed as 21 when you have learning level 5. Attribute points simply add like this: Base Attrib + Skill Level + Implant eg. 11 + 5 + 3 = 19 THEN you multiply that by your learning skill (level 5 10%) So, (11+5+3)1.1 = 20.90 which on your character sheet will display as 20. Adding 1 attrib point to that gets you (12+5+3)1.1 = 22.00, which displays as 22. Therefore it is not possible to have a 21.xx attribute with level 5 learning. ---
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.18 12:46:00 - [41] dude im so confused. i ll talke to you in game, or something if its ok with you.
JarmenKell	Posted - 2004.09.18 12:46:00 - [42] dude im so confused. i ll talke to you in game, or something if its ok with you.
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.19 01:04:00 - [43] Any time. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.19 01:04:00 - [44] Any time. ---
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:04:00 - [45] After creating a character on a second account, I vowed to train up learning skills before anything else, with the only interuptions being those skills needed for implants that I bought for him using my main character. I trained mem/int/learing/ to V in stages of 1 lvl each time in rotation. I started using Eve character manager from eve-i.com whilst doing this and when I typed in the follow on skills that I wish to train after learning skills, it suggested that I would save 4 days over a 39 day period by training learning V, bringing it down to 34 days and something hours To me that seems like a worthwhile investment in training to learning V, i.e almost recovered the lost days. I dont understand where I'll be waiting 140 days to recoup my time. Is this right or is Eve Character Manager flawed? (the skills I wanted to train are based on int and mem which are high for my alt, if that makes any difference)
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:04:00 - [46] After creating a character on a second account, I vowed to train up learning skills before anything else, with the only interuptions being those skills needed for implants that I bought for him using my main character. I trained mem/int/learing/ to V in stages of 1 lvl each time in rotation. I started using Eve character manager from eve-i.com whilst doing this and when I typed in the follow on skills that I wish to train after learning skills, it suggested that I would save 4 days over a 39 day period by training learning V, bringing it down to 34 days and something hours To me that seems like a worthwhile investment in training to learning V, i.e almost recovered the lost days. I dont understand where I'll be waiting 140 days to recoup my time. Is this right or is Eve Character Manager flawed? (the skills I wanted to train are based on int and mem which are high for my alt, if that makes any difference)
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:26:00 - [47] The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:26:00 - [48] The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. ---
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:30:00 - [49] Originally by: Tripoli The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. Understood. Thanks.
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Tripoli The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. Understood. Thanks.
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Tripoli The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. Understood. Thanks.
Arte	Posted - 2004.09.19 12:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Tripoli The 140 days is the time it takes for you to make up 210,745 SP worth of training after only a 2% increase in training speed. Understood. Thanks.
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.10.01 10:46:00 - [53] I started with 12 charisma, can someone please help me
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.10.01 10:46:00 - [54] I started with 12 charisma, can someone please help me ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.10.01 10:46:00 - [55] I started with 12 charisma, can someone please help me ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
Kaeten	Posted - 2004.10.01 10:46:00 - [56] I started with 12 charisma, can someone please help me
Lord Wimbishi	Posted - 2004.10.05 14:33:00 - [57] Yo trip. I see you are still using your formala which is all fine and cool. There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. I point back to my original post which few have tried to put their own ideas of how to calculate training time. Just keep it kinda simple dude. If your formula works for you, hey great good for you and those that would try to go by it. I will stick to mine and there is another that other dude came up with 250 x rank. Good for him on figuring THAT way out. Point is peoples is there are several good ways to come up with training times. if any of the ways here works for ya hey use it and hope it gives some accuracy down to the minutes and seconds. I know mine gets it at least down the the minutes. I will advise those using my posted method to go with the formula I posted. It doesn't complicate anything and you can add up the total sums of identical training times in a skill tree to give you an estimate of time needed for the combined skills. The others probably could do the same. If ya get a good formula to work for you then just stick with it. I am open in game to help with character skill planning as well. and well I go for the lvl 5 skills all the time because it is planning for the LONG run not a short few months where yes for a begining character can see an immediate effect of their training time. if you get around to be an old dog like me then you need to start planning for weeks and months at a time so you can achieve your character's fantasy.
Lord Wimbishi	Posted - 2004.10.05 14:33:00 - [58] Yo trip. I see you are still using your formala which is all fine and cool. There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. I point back to my original post which few have tried to put their own ideas of how to calculate training time. Just keep it kinda simple dude. If your formula works for you, hey great good for you and those that would try to go by it. I will stick to mine and there is another that other dude came up with 250 x rank. Good for him on figuring THAT way out. Point is peoples is there are several good ways to come up with training times. if any of the ways here works for ya hey use it and hope it gives some accuracy down to the minutes and seconds. I know mine gets it at least down the the minutes. I will advise those using my posted method to go with the formula I posted. It doesn't complicate anything and you can add up the total sums of identical training times in a skill tree to give you an estimate of time needed for the combined skills. The others probably could do the same. If ya get a good formula to work for you then just stick with it. I am open in game to help with character skill planning as well. and well I go for the lvl 5 skills all the time because it is planning for the LONG run not a short few months where yes for a begining character can see an immediate effect of their training time. if you get around to be an old dog like me then you need to start planning for weeks and months at a time so you can achieve your character's fantasy.
Lord Wimbishi	Posted - 2004.10.05 14:33:00 - [59] Yo trip. I see you are still using your formala which is all fine and cool. There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. I point back to my original post which few have tried to put their own ideas of how to calculate training time. Just keep it kinda simple dude. If your formula works for you, hey great good for you and those that would try to go by it. I will stick to mine and there is another that other dude came up with 250 x rank. Good for him on figuring THAT way out. Point is peoples is there are several good ways to come up with training times. if any of the ways here works for ya hey use it and hope it gives some accuracy down to the minutes and seconds. I know mine gets it at least down the the minutes. I will advise those using my posted method to go with the formula I posted. It doesn't complicate anything and you can add up the total sums of identical training times in a skill tree to give you an estimate of time needed for the combined skills. The others probably could do the same. If ya get a good formula to work for you then just stick with it. I am open in game to help with character skill planning as well. and well I go for the lvl 5 skills all the time because it is planning for the LONG run not a short few months where yes for a begining character can see an immediate effect of their training time. if you get around to be an old dog like me then you need to start planning for weeks and months at a time so you can achieve your character's fantasy.
Lord Wimbishi	Posted - 2004.10.05 14:33:00 - [60] Yo trip. I see you are still using your formala which is all fine and cool. There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. I point back to my original post which few have tried to put their own ideas of how to calculate training time. Just keep it kinda simple dude. If your formula works for you, hey great good for you and those that would try to go by it. I will stick to mine and there is another that other dude came up with 250 x rank. Good for him on figuring THAT way out. Point is peoples is there are several good ways to come up with training times. if any of the ways here works for ya hey use it and hope it gives some accuracy down to the minutes and seconds. I know mine gets it at least down the the minutes. I will advise those using my posted method to go with the formula I posted. It doesn't complicate anything and you can add up the total sums of identical training times in a skill tree to give you an estimate of time needed for the combined skills. The others probably could do the same. If ya get a good formula to work for you then just stick with it. I am open in game to help with character skill planning as well. and well I go for the lvl 5 skills all the time because it is planning for the LONG run not a short few months where yes for a begining character can see an immediate effect of their training time. if you get around to be an old dog like me then you need to start planning for weeks and months at a time so you can achieve your character's fantasy.
Astyrael Kirkemen	Posted - 2004.10.05 22:30:00 - [61] So thats how its working, thx for all the tips.
Astyrael Kirkemen	Posted - 2004.10.05 22:30:00 - [62] So thats how its working, thx for all the tips.
Astyrael Kirkemen	Posted - 2004.10.05 22:30:00 - [63] So thats how its working, thx for all the tips.
Astyrael Kirkemen	Posted - 2004.10.05 22:30:00 - [64] So thats how its working, thx for all the tips.
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.10.06 04:24:00 - [65] Originally by: Lord Wimbishi There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. Sorry bud, but it IS increasing your attributes by 2% and NOT decreasing your training time by 2% (which would be better). Let me illustrate. My base intelligence was 11. I have learning level 5, Analytical Mind 5, Logic 4 and a standard +4 implant. My intelligence shows as 26 in-game and is actually 26.4. 11 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 24. Not 26 like EVE says. If that's not enough proof, let's do a training time example. I have Shield Management level 4. EVE says that it would take 11 Days 2 Hours 5 Minues and 31 Seconds to train with my 26.4/26.4 attributes. Using my calculated attributes of 26.4/26.4 my calculator agrees, to the second. Let's see what happens when I take away a level of learning... My attributes drop to 25.92/25.92. Training increases to 11:7:1:11. That's a 1.85% difference in skill training time. I'm sorry, but the learning skill description is simply wrong. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.10.06 04:24:00 - [66] Originally by: Lord Wimbishi There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. Sorry bud, but it IS increasing your attributes by 2% and NOT decreasing your training time by 2% (which would be better). Let me illustrate. My base intelligence was 11. I have learning level 5, Analytical Mind 5, Logic 4 and a standard +4 implant. My intelligence shows as 26 in-game and is actually 26.4. 11 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 24. Not 26 like EVE says. If that's not enough proof, let's do a training time example. I have Shield Management level 4. EVE says that it would take 11 Days 2 Hours 5 Minues and 31 Seconds to train with my 26.4/26.4 attributes. Using my calculated attributes of 26.4/26.4 my calculator agrees, to the second. Let's see what happens when I take away a level of learning... My attributes drop to 25.92/25.92. Training increases to 11:7:1:11. That's a 1.85% difference in skill training time. I'm sorry, but the learning skill description is simply wrong. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.10.06 04:24:00 - [67] Originally by: Lord Wimbishi There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. Sorry bud, but it IS increasing your attributes by 2% and NOT decreasing your training time by 2% (which would be better). Let me illustrate. My base intelligence was 11. I have learning level 5, Analytical Mind 5, Logic 4 and a standard +4 implant. My intelligence shows as 26 in-game and is actually 26.4. 11 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 24. Not 26 like EVE says. If that's not enough proof, let's do a training time example. I have Shield Management level 4. EVE says that it would take 11 Days 2 Hours 5 Minues and 31 Seconds to train with my 26.4/26.4 attributes. Using my calculated attributes of 26.4/26.4 my calculator agrees, to the second. Let's see what happens when I take away a level of learning... My attributes drop to 25.92/25.92. Training increases to 11:7:1:11. That's a 1.85% difference in skill training time. I'm sorry, but the learning skill description is simply wrong. ---
Tripoli	Posted - 2004.10.06 04:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Lord Wimbishi There are several ways to calculate it but still stand steadfast in saying that the formula you present is still not how the game is working it. as per the skill Learning shows.. 2% reduction in skill training time. does NOT say 2% increase to all attributes per level. Sorry bud, but it IS increasing your attributes by 2% and NOT decreasing your training time by 2% (which would be better). Let me illustrate. My base intelligence was 11. I have learning level 5, Analytical Mind 5, Logic 4 and a standard +4 implant. My intelligence shows as 26 in-game and is actually 26.4. 11 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 24. Not 26 like EVE says. If that's not enough proof, let's do a training time example. I have Shield Management level 4. EVE says that it would take 11 Days 2 Hours 5 Minues and 31 Seconds to train with my 26.4/26.4 attributes. Using my calculated attributes of 26.4/26.4 my calculator agrees, to the second. Let's see what happens when I take away a level of learning... My attributes drop to 25.92/25.92. Training increases to 11:7:1:11. That's a 1.85% difference in skill training time. I'm sorry, but the learning skill description is simply wrong. ---
Taaser	Posted - 2004.10.27 06:50:00 - [69] Originally by: Tripoli Constantly debated is how worthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer. Not any more - you need lvl 5 learning skills (in their respective categories) to train the new advanced learning skills. Botta bing botta boom
Taaser	Posted - 2004.10.27 06:50:00 - [70] Originally by: Tripoli Constantly debated is how worthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer. Not any more - you need lvl 5 learning skills (in their respective categories) to train the new advanced learning skills. Botta bing botta boom
Taaser	Posted - 2004.10.27 06:50:00 - [71] Originally by: Tripoli Constantly debated is how worthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer. Not any more - you need lvl 5 learning skills (in their respective categories) to train the new advanced learning skills. Botta bing botta boom
Taaser	Posted - 2004.10.27 06:50:00 - [72] Originally by: Tripoli Constantly debated is how worthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer. Not any more - you need lvl 5 learning skills (in their respective categories) to train the new advanced learning skills. Botta bing botta boom
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:52:00 - [73] Tripoli is right. Its pure math. No debate. The formula for aquiring skillpoints pr minute is: ( (PrimAttrib + PrimAttribSkill + PrimAttribImplant)+ (SecAttrib + SecAttribSkill + SecAttribImplant)/2 ) * (1 + 0.02 * Learning level) The description for the learning skills are - as for a lot of other skills - wrong and misleading. Just look at the refining skills. They come close to blatant lies. Increasing the speed with 2% does not make you reach your target 2% faster. It is the same as saying that 102/100 = 100/98. I wrote a bit on the above calulations for Eve-I's FAQ, that might or might not make sense to you. :) But it is there if someone wants to have a look at it. Trak Cranker
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:52:00 - [74] Tripoli is right. Its pure math. No debate. The formula for aquiring skillpoints pr minute is: ( (PrimAttrib + PrimAttribSkill + PrimAttribImplant)+ (SecAttrib + SecAttribSkill + SecAttribImplant)/2 ) * (1 + 0.02 * Learning level) The description for the learning skills are - as for a lot of other skills - wrong and misleading. Just look at the refining skills. They come close to blatant lies. Increasing the speed with 2% does not make you reach your target 2% faster. It is the same as saying that 102/100 = 100/98. I wrote a bit on the above calulations for Eve-I's FAQ, that might or might not make sense to you. :) But it is there if someone wants to have a look at it. Trak Cranker
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:52:00 - [75] Tripoli is right. Its pure math. No debate. The formula for aquiring skillpoints pr minute is: ( (PrimAttrib + PrimAttribSkill + PrimAttribImplant)+ (SecAttrib + SecAttribSkill + SecAttribImplant)/2 ) * (1 + 0.02 * Learning level) The description for the learning skills are - as for a lot of other skills - wrong and misleading. Just look at the refining skills. They come close to blatant lies. Increasing the speed with 2% does not make you reach your target 2% faster. It is the same as saying that 102/100 = 100/98. I wrote a bit on the above calulations for Eve-I's FAQ, that might or might not make sense to you. :) But it is there if someone wants to have a look at it. Trak Cranker
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2004.10.28 12:52:00 - [76] Tripoli is right. Its pure math. No debate. The formula for aquiring skillpoints pr minute is: ( (PrimAttrib + PrimAttribSkill + PrimAttribImplant)+ (SecAttrib + SecAttribSkill + SecAttribImplant)/2 ) * (1 + 0.02 * Learning level) The description for the learning skills are - as for a lot of other skills - wrong and misleading. Just look at the refining skills. They come close to blatant lies. Increasing the speed with 2% does not make you reach your target 2% faster. It is the same as saying that 102/100 = 100/98. I wrote a bit on the above calulations for Eve-I's FAQ, that might or might not make sense to you. :) But it is there if someone wants to have a look at it. Trak Cranker
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.08 09:31:00 - [77] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 08/11/2004 09:44:36 I figured out a little formula that tells you how long it will take for a learning skill to pay off, which seems to be what everyone's interested in: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (new rate - old rate) t_delay is the time it takes to train up your learning skill. New rate and old rate are given by the primary and secondary attributes of the skills you want to train after the learning skill completes. This formula is better suited for those skills that affect your attributes. example: Say I have all attributes at 8. I want to know how long training instant recall up to level 1 will take to pay off, if I plan to train a lot of learning skills afterwards. Basic learning skills all have mem primary, int secondary, so my old rate of learning would be mem + int/2 = 8 + 4 = 12. New rate is 9 + 4 = 13. So t_payoff = t_delay * 13 / (13-12). So it will take 13 times as long to pay off as it takes to train. If I trained Int up, which is secondary for learning skills, it would take twice as long, because the rate would only differ by half a point. If you don't remember your initial attributes, just take the attributes as you see them in your character sheet, it won't make that much of a difference. This equivalent formula is better for the straight learning skill: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate/old rate / (new rate/old rate - 1) (just divide both denominator and numerator by 'old rate') new rate/old rate is given by 1 + new learning lvl * 0,02 / (1 + old learning lvl * 0,02), which is approximately 1.02, but decreases slightly for high levels of learning. So a first guess for t_payoff is at least 51 times as long as it takes to train up your learning skill. Yes, fifty one times (1.02/0.02). For learning from 4 to 5, it's about 55 times as long. Say you've got quite decent attributes and can train learning to level five in 5 days, then it still takes 275 days (nine months) to pay off. If you train up straight learning, at least it doesn't matter what you train afterwards. edit: Why not include a high level example for the attribute raising skills? So your kick-ass high end character has 20 in all attributes, thanks to implants and advanced learning skills. You want to train gunnery and spaceship command skills, because there's plenty of those and they always keep adding new ones. How long would it take for an even higher level of Clarity or Focus to pay off? Well, the first formula gives: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (difference in rates) this is roughly the same (for high rates) as t_payoff = t_delay * new rate * X, where X is 1 if the attribute is primary, and X is 2 if it's secondary. So Clarity will take about 30 times as long to pay off as it takes to train up, probably in the range of 90 days for level 4 and 400+ days for level 5. Focus takes twice as long to pay off, since it's 2nd for guns and ships. ______________
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.08 09:31:00 - [78] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 08/11/2004 09:44:36 I figured out a little formula that tells you how long it will take for a learning skill to pay off, which seems to be what everyone's interested in: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (new rate - old rate) t_delay is the time it takes to train up your learning skill. New rate and old rate are given by the primary and secondary attributes of the skills you want to train after the learning skill completes. This formula is better suited for those skills that affect your attributes. example: Say I have all attributes at 8. I want to know how long training instant recall up to level 1 will take to pay off, if I plan to train a lot of learning skills afterwards. Basic learning skills all have mem primary, int secondary, so my old rate of learning would be mem + int/2 = 8 + 4 = 12. New rate is 9 + 4 = 13. So t_payoff = t_delay * 13 / (13-12). So it will take 13 times as long to pay off as it takes to train. If I trained Int up, which is secondary for learning skills, it would take twice as long, because the rate would only differ by half a point. If you don't remember your initial attributes, just take the attributes as you see them in your character sheet, it won't make that much of a difference. This equivalent formula is better for the straight learning skill: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate/old rate / (new rate/old rate - 1) (just divide both denominator and numerator by 'old rate') new rate/old rate is given by 1 + new learning lvl * 0,02 / (1 + old learning lvl * 0,02), which is approximately 1.02, but decreases slightly for high levels of learning. So a first guess for t_payoff is at least 51 times as long as it takes to train up your learning skill. Yes, fifty one times (1.02/0.02). For learning from 4 to 5, it's about 55 times as long. Say you've got quite decent attributes and can train learning to level five in 5 days, then it still takes 275 days (nine months) to pay off. If you train up straight learning, at least it doesn't matter what you train afterwards. edit: Why not include a high level example for the attribute raising skills? So your kick-ass high end character has 20 in all attributes, thanks to implants and advanced learning skills. You want to train gunnery and spaceship command skills, because there's plenty of those and they always keep adding new ones. How long would it take for an even higher level of Clarity or Focus to pay off? Well, the first formula gives: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (difference in rates) this is roughly the same (for high rates) as t_payoff = t_delay * new rate * X, where X is 1 if the attribute is primary, and X is 2 if it's secondary. So Clarity will take about 30 times as long to pay off as it takes to train up, probably in the range of 90 days for level 4 and 400+ days for level 5. Focus takes twice as long to pay off, since it's 2nd for guns and ships. ______________ Join the Family
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.08 09:31:00 - [79] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 08/11/2004 09:44:36 I figured out a little formula that tells you how long it will take for a learning skill to pay off, which seems to be what everyone's interested in: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (new rate - old rate) t_delay is the time it takes to train up your learning skill. New rate and old rate are given by the primary and secondary attributes of the skills you want to train after the learning skill completes. This formula is better suited for those skills that affect your attributes. example: Say I have all attributes at 8. I want to know how long training instant recall up to level 1 will take to pay off, if I plan to train a lot of learning skills afterwards. Basic learning skills all have mem primary, int secondary, so my old rate of learning would be mem + int/2 = 8 + 4 = 12. New rate is 9 + 4 = 13. So t_payoff = t_delay * 13 / (13-12). So it will take 13 times as long to pay off as it takes to train. If I trained Int up, which is secondary for learning skills, it would take twice as long, because the rate would only differ by half a point. If you don't remember your initial attributes, just take the attributes as you see them in your character sheet, it won't make that much of a difference. This equivalent formula is better for the straight learning skill: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate/old rate / (new rate/old rate - 1) (just divide both denominator and numerator by 'old rate') new rate/old rate is given by 1 + new learning lvl * 0,02 / (1 + old learning lvl * 0,02), which is approximately 1.02, but decreases slightly for high levels of learning. So a first guess for t_payoff is at least 51 times as long as it takes to train up your learning skill. Yes, fifty one times (1.02/0.02). For learning from 4 to 5, it's about 55 times as long. Say you've got quite decent attributes and can train learning to level five in 5 days, then it still takes 275 days (nine months) to pay off. If you train up straight learning, at least it doesn't matter what you train afterwards. edit: Why not include a high level example for the attribute raising skills? So your kick-ass high end character has 20 in all attributes, thanks to implants and advanced learning skills. You want to train gunnery and spaceship command skills, because there's plenty of those and they always keep adding new ones. How long would it take for an even higher level of Clarity or Focus to pay off? Well, the first formula gives: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (difference in rates) this is roughly the same (for high rates) as t_payoff = t_delay * new rate * X, where X is 1 if the attribute is primary, and X is 2 if it's secondary. So Clarity will take about 30 times as long to pay off as it takes to train up, probably in the range of 90 days for level 4 and 400+ days for level 5. Focus takes twice as long to pay off, since it's 2nd for guns and ships.
Kakita Jalaan	Posted - 2004.11.08 09:31:00 - [80] Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 08/11/2004 09:44:36 I figured out a little formula that tells you how long it will take for a learning skill to pay off, which seems to be what everyone's interested in: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (new rate - old rate) t_delay is the time it takes to train up your learning skill. New rate and old rate are given by the primary and secondary attributes of the skills you want to train after the learning skill completes. This formula is better suited for those skills that affect your attributes. example: Say I have all attributes at 8. I want to know how long training instant recall up to level 1 will take to pay off, if I plan to train a lot of learning skills afterwards. Basic learning skills all have mem primary, int secondary, so my old rate of learning would be mem + int/2 = 8 + 4 = 12. New rate is 9 + 4 = 13. So t_payoff = t_delay * 13 / (13-12). So it will take 13 times as long to pay off as it takes to train. If I trained Int up, which is secondary for learning skills, it would take twice as long, because the rate would only differ by half a point. If you don't remember your initial attributes, just take the attributes as you see them in your character sheet, it won't make that much of a difference. This equivalent formula is better for the straight learning skill: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate/old rate / (new rate/old rate - 1) (just divide both denominator and numerator by 'old rate') new rate/old rate is given by 1 + new learning lvl * 0,02 / (1 + old learning lvl * 0,02), which is approximately 1.02, but decreases slightly for high levels of learning. So a first guess for t_payoff is at least 51 times as long as it takes to train up your learning skill. Yes, fifty one times (1.02/0.02). For learning from 4 to 5, it's about 55 times as long. Say you've got quite decent attributes and can train learning to level five in 5 days, then it still takes 275 days (nine months) to pay off. If you train up straight learning, at least it doesn't matter what you train afterwards. edit: Why not include a high level example for the attribute raising skills? So your kick-ass high end character has 20 in all attributes, thanks to implants and advanced learning skills. You want to train gunnery and spaceship command skills, because there's plenty of those and they always keep adding new ones. How long would it take for an even higher level of Clarity or Focus to pay off? Well, the first formula gives: t_payoff = t_delay * new rate / (difference in rates) this is roughly the same (for high rates) as t_payoff = t_delay * new rate * X, where X is 1 if the attribute is primary, and X is 2 if it's secondary. So Clarity will take about 30 times as long to pay off as it takes to train up, probably in the range of 90 days for level 4 and 400+ days for level 5. Focus takes twice as long to pay off, since it's 2nd for guns and ships.
Anariana	Posted - 2004.11.09 12:44:00 - [81] Edited by: Anariana on 09/11/2004 12:48:49 I agree with Taaser. The new advanced learning skills makes level 5 training a nescesity. This discussion has helped me out a lot on how to stratigise my skill training. Thanks guys ---------------- Regards, Ana
Anariana	Posted - 2004.11.09 12:44:00 - [82] Edited by: Anariana on 09/11/2004 12:48:49 I agree with Taaser. The new advanced learning skills makes level 5 training a nescesity. This discussion has helped me out a lot on how to stratigise my skill training. Thanks guys ---------------- Regards, Ana
Anariana	Posted - 2004.11.09 12:44:00 - [83] Edited by: Anariana on 09/11/2004 12:48:49 I agree with Taaser. The new advanced learning skills makes level 5 training a nescesity. This discussion has helped me out a lot on how to stratigise my skill training. Thanks guys ---------------- Regards, Ana
Anariana	Posted - 2004.11.09 12:44:00 - [84] Edited by: Anariana on 09/11/2004 12:48:49 I agree with Taaser. The new advanced learning skills makes level 5 training a nescesity. This discussion has helped me out a lot on how to stratigise my skill training. Thanks guys ---------------- Regards, Ana
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.14 15:56:00 - [85] As asked earlier, how can you tell what your base stats are? I thought a quick reference would be simply to create a new char, and view the stats of the one I chose originally.. but, then I read that it's very likely I received five additional attribute points to put into the character - I have no idea where I allocated them.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.14 15:56:00 - [86] As asked earlier, how can you tell what your base stats are? I thought a quick reference would be simply to create a new char, and view the stats of the one I chose originally.. but, then I read that it's very likely I received five additional attribute points to put into the character - I have no idea where I allocated them.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.14 15:56:00 - [87] As asked earlier, how can you tell what your base stats are? I thought a quick reference would be simply to create a new char, and view the stats of the one I chose originally.. but, then I read that it's very likely I received five additional attribute points to put into the character - I have no idea where I allocated them.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.14 15:56:00 - [88] As asked earlier, how can you tell what your base stats are? I thought a quick reference would be simply to create a new char, and view the stats of the one I chose originally.. but, then I read that it's very likely I received five additional attribute points to put into the character - I have no idea where I allocated them.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.16 06:36:00 - [89] I figured out my base stats by starting a new character with the same bloodline, and selecting the same starting profession. But, IÆve now found an inconsistency with the latest and popular theory of the Learning modifier. See the chart below, the ôShould Beö column is calculating all of the stats plus the 0.1 for being level 5 Learning. Attrib....Base....Scientist....Basic Learning....Adv. Learning....Implants....Should Be INT.......8.........4..............5......................4......................3..............26.4 CHA......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 PER.......3.........0..............5......................4......................3..............16.5 MEM......7.........6..............5......................4......................3..............27.5 WIL.......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 The ôscientistö column is what was added onto the base stats when starting the character as a scientist. The INT ended up being 12, and MEM was 13. Now, all the stats display as they should in the EVE character sheet, except for INTà see the actual EVE stats of this char: INT û 25 CHA û 19 PER û 16 MEM û 27 WP û 19 Granted, itÆs only off by one, but this means the calculation must be incorrect. If anyone has any other theories, IÆm all ears.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.16 06:36:00 - [90] I figured out my base stats by starting a new character with the same bloodline, and selecting the same starting profession. But, IÆve now found an inconsistency with the latest and popular theory of the Learning modifier. See the chart below, the ôShould Beö column is calculating all of the stats plus the 0.1 for being level 5 Learning. Attrib....Base....Scientist....Basic Learning....Adv. Learning....Implants....Should Be INT.......8.........4..............5......................4......................3..............26.4 CHA......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 PER.......3.........0..............5......................4......................3..............16.5 MEM......7.........6..............5......................4......................3..............27.5 WIL.......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 The ôscientistö column is what was added onto the base stats when starting the character as a scientist. The INT ended up being 12, and MEM was 13. Now, all the stats display as they should in the EVE character sheet, except for INTà see the actual EVE stats of this char: INT û 25 CHA û 19 PER û 16 MEM û 27 WP û 19 Granted, itÆs only off by one, but this means the calculation must be incorrect. If anyone has any other theories, IÆm all ears.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.16 06:36:00 - [91] I figured out my base stats by starting a new character with the same bloodline, and selecting the same starting profession. But, IÆve now found an inconsistency with the latest and popular theory of the Learning modifier. See the chart below, the ôShould Beö column is calculating all of the stats plus the 0.1 for being level 5 Learning. Attrib....Base....Scientist....Basic Learning....Adv. Learning....Implants....Should Be INT.......8.........4..............5......................4......................3..............26.4 CHA......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 PER.......3.........0..............5......................4......................3..............16.5 MEM......7.........6..............5......................4......................3..............27.5 WIL.......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 The ôscientistö column is what was added onto the base stats when starting the character as a scientist. The INT ended up being 12, and MEM was 13. Now, all the stats display as they should in the EVE character sheet, except for INTà see the actual EVE stats of this char: INT û 25 CHA û 19 PER û 16 MEM û 27 WP û 19 Granted, itÆs only off by one, but this means the calculation must be incorrect. If anyone has any other theories, IÆm all ears.
Wiinter	Posted - 2004.12.16 06:36:00 - [92] I figured out my base stats by starting a new character with the same bloodline, and selecting the same starting profession. But, IÆve now found an inconsistency with the latest and popular theory of the Learning modifier. See the chart below, the ôShould Beö column is calculating all of the stats plus the 0.1 for being level 5 Learning. Attrib....Base....Scientist....Basic Learning....Adv. Learning....Implants....Should Be INT.......8.........4..............5......................4......................3..............26.4 CHA......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 PER.......3.........0..............5......................4......................3..............16.5 MEM......7.........6..............5......................4......................3..............27.5 WIL.......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 The ôscientistö column is what was added onto the base stats when starting the character as a scientist. The INT ended up being 12, and MEM was 13. Now, all the stats display as they should in the EVE character sheet, except for INTà see the actual EVE stats of this char: INT û 25 CHA û 19 PER û 16 MEM û 27 WP û 19 Granted, itÆs only off by one, but this means the calculation must be incorrect. If anyone has any other theories, IÆm all ears.
Mydion	Posted - 2005.01.03 15:40:00 - [93] cool thanks
Mydion	Posted - 2005.01.03 15:40:00 - [94] cool thanks
UltrA	Posted - 2005.01.06 11:52:00 - [95] You guys really do NEED to get out more....
UltrA	Posted - 2005.01.06 11:52:00 - [96] You guys really do NEED to get out more....
JanaDon	Posted - 2005.03.30 08:08:00 - [97] Wiinter - I have met the same problem - when I recalculated what were my initiall Attribs I was off by one point. For me the sollution was to substract one point from my base points, so that immediatelly after creation I had 39 Attrib points in total (and not 40). Since that correction everything works perfect--I mean that all calculations I make using Tripoli's formula agree 100% with times what EVE gives me (up to a fraction of a minute--every single time). So just lower your initial Intel by one and live with it.
JanaDon	Posted - 2005.03.30 08:08:00 - [98] Wiinter - I have met the same problem - when I recalculated what were my initiall Attribs I was off by one point. For me the sollution was to substract one point from my base points, so that immediatelly after creation I had 39 Attrib points in total (and not 40). Since that correction everything works perfect--I mean that all calculations I make using Tripoli's formula agree 100% with times what EVE gives me (up to a fraction of a minute--every single time). So just lower your initial Intel by one and live with it.
Deileon	Posted - 2005.03.31 08:09:00 - [99] Originally by: Wiinter Attrib....Base....Scientist. INT.......8.........4....... CHA......6.........0........ PER.......3.........0....... MEM......7.........6........ WIL.......6.........0....... You can only get +9 stats added on to base, for a total of 39. One of the 3 profession choices for your subrace gives +4 mem. Obviously the 5 remaining "free" points went for +3 int and +2 mem (+3 is max boost for free stats.) Not sure where you got 4 and 6 but it's wrong. They say bananas are a dish best served cold...
Deileon	Posted - 2005.03.31 08:09:00 - [100] Originally by: Wiinter Attrib....Base....Scientist. INT.......8.........4....... CHA......6.........0........ PER.......3.........0....... MEM......7.........6........ WIL.......6.........0....... You can only get +9 stats added on to base, for a total of 39. One of the 3 profession choices for your subrace gives +4 mem. Obviously the 5 remaining "free" points went for +3 int and +2 mem (+3 is max boost for free stats.) Not sure where you got 4 and 6 but it's wrong. They say bananas are a dish best served cold...
CGSB ShankFact	Posted - 2005.05.05 07:22:00 - [101] whoa, a real live geek
Deileon	Posted - 2005.05.06 02:04:00 - [102] Originally by: CGSB ShankFact whoa, a real live geek Have you READ the forums at all? They say bananas are a dish best served cold...
JarmenKell	Posted - 2005.05.09 14:06:00 - [103] Originally by: Wiinter I figured out my base stats by starting a new character with the same bloodline, and selecting the same starting profession. But, IÆve now found an inconsistency with the latest and popular theory of the Learning modifier. See the chart below, the ôShould Beö column is calculating all of the stats plus the 0.1 for being level 5 Learning. Attrib....Base....Scientist....Basic Learning....Adv. Learning....Implants....Should Be INT.......8.........4..............5......................4......................3..............26.4 CHA......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 PER.......3.........0..............5......................4......................3..............16.5 MEM......7.........6..............5......................4......................3..............27.5 WIL.......6.........0..............5......................4......................3..............19.8 The ôscientistö column is what was added onto the base stats when starting the character as a scientist. The INT ended up being 12, and MEM was 13. Now, all the stats display as they should in the EVE character sheet, except for INTà see the actual EVE stats of this char: INT û 25 CHA û 19 PER û 16 MEM û 27 WP û 19 Granted, itÆs only off by one, but this means the calculation must be incorrect. If anyone has any other theories, IÆm all ears. go for adv intel and memory 5 should take you less than 20 days for both.
Deileon	Posted - 2005.05.13 01:33:00 - [104] Originally by: JarmenKell go for adv intel and memory 5 should take you less than 20 days for both. Why do this?? It takes years to break even, only if he is totally specialized and even then I would only do Logic L5. Even a specialized int/mem character would have mem as secondary most of the time. They say bananas are a dish best served cold...
Krazy Karl	Posted - 2005.05.30 05:15:00 - [105] learning skills are always worth training time
fatton	Posted - 2005.06.05 12:39:00 - [106] learnin skills is well worth the wait. some skills r gud but some r just rubish
Deileon	Posted - 2005.06.06 07:20:00 - [107] Edited by: Deileon on 06/06/2005 07:27:41 Adv.5 learnings take over 2 months to train, and take between 3.8 and 7.5 years to break even (depending on which number you want to accept.) You claim "all learnings are worth the training time!!" as your mantra, without listening to the math. If you could possibly train Advanced Learnings to level 6, it would take about 365 days to train (neat coincidence) and would pay off around 2050. Would that be worth it too? Presence 5 4TW!!!!! (Sorry couldn't resist ) They say bananas are a dish best served cold...
EugeneZ	Posted - 2005.06.09 15:35:00 - [108] hmmm
Sir Crisus	Posted - 2005.07.08 14:04:00 - [109] Edited by: Sir Crisus on 08/07/2005 14:05:39 Edited by: Sir Crisus on 08/07/2005 14:04:52 Originally by: Lachenlaud Skill points per level is calculated as follows: (((2^((2.5 x Level)-2.5)) x 250) x Rank) The ^ symbol means 'to the power of, which is exponential notation. This means that skill points per level per rank are NOT calculated simply by multiplying 250 by the level by the rank (250 x level x rank). Ouch that is difficult: calculate like this, same thing but easier: Skillpoints at a certain level = 250 * rank * 32^((Level-1)/2). at rank 1 L1 = 250, L2 = 250 * SQRT(32), L3 = 250 * 32 etc etc. Each double level increment multiplies the base by 32, the inbetween levels are "in between" in an exponential way, thus square root :)
striider	Posted - 2005.07.20 18:46:00 - [110] Having been ganked to the point of losing a pod 4 times, I am happy to have adv. learning trained as high as possible. I still wear implants when I can get em, but the adv. learning training never goes away. With the advent of new skills for spaceship command and missiles, I just couldn't resist training them up to level 5 (all except the charisma one that is). It's 2 months ... big deal ... and it goes by quick. Every day that passes beyond those two months is a day that I'm getting something back. When will it break even? When will it have proven a good investment? Exactly? I no longer care ... A year from now I'll know I made the right decision. And hey, if Eve isn't around then or I'm not playing ... well, it's not like I can't do just about anything I want to with the 25m sp I already have. ~S
stonerman	Posted - 2005.08.14 18:18:00 - [111]
Nadi Fox	Posted - 2005.08.17 23:39:00 - [112] Alright, maybe someone can correct my Math. I've doing a calculation and EVE isn't giving the same result. Base Int: 13 Base Mem: 9 Instant Recall level 4 Analytical Mind level 4 Learning level 3 So my Int = (13+4) + ((13+4)30.02) = 17 + 1.02 = 18.02 Eve displays 18, as it is truncated. And my Mem = (9+4) + ((9+4)30.02) = 13 + 0.78 = 13.78 Eve displays 13, as it is truncated. Taking into account the Skill: Mechanic > Hull Upgrades It has Intelligence as a primary attribute and memory as a secondary attribute. My Skill Points per minute should be: (18.02 + (13.78 / 2)) = 18.02+6.89 = 24.91 Well I found my mistake, I had incorrectly calculated that as 20.09 before. I'l keep going so others can see how I worked it out. Skill points remaining for a Rank 2 skill, trying to do level 2, with 500 points already in the skill is: 2^((2.5 x Level)-2.5) x 250 x Rank 2^((2.52)-2.5) 2502 = 2^2.5 2502 = 5.65685424923801 500 = 2828.427124 Eve Truncates this to 2828. I already have 500 SP invested so that leaves 2328.428124 Remaining Skill Points / Skill Points per minute = Minutes remaining 2328.428124 SP / 24.91 = 93.4736300 minutes. 93.47363 minutes = 1 hour, 33.46363 minutes = 1 hour 33 minutes 28.417 seconds EVE says it takes me 1 hour, 33 minutes, and 28 seconds. So even though I had to type it all out to find my error (which was probably a wrong keystroke) I hope this can act as a kind of walkthrough for the less than mathematically astute.
Daniel Jackson	Posted - 2005.08.22 16:15:00 - [113] Edited by: Daniel Jackson on 22/08/2005 16:23:14 ok all i know is , ok umm, my attributes are currently: 19 intel 19 perception 16 chrisma 16 willpower 20 memory i have Learning 5 Analytical mind 5 Spatial awarness 5 empathy 5 iron will 5 instant recall 5 logic 5 clarity 4 presence 4 focus 4 eidetic memory 4 and yes i really traned logic to lev 5 and i have no implants NOW if i had every advanced learning skills on 5 + full set of the best attubute implants witch are i think the +5 1's what would my attributes be then? Caldari will once again rise above the Gallente and take back Caldari Prime! Image done by Denrace
Lardarz B'stard	Posted - 2005.08.22 17:56:00 - [114] Can we pleeease have a way to change attributes even slightly for those idiots amongst us that put lots of points into charisma when there were no guides available 2 years+ ago ????
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.08.23 03:23:00 - [115] Originally by: Daniel Jackson my attributes are currently: 19 intel 19 perception 16 chrisma 16 willpower 20 memory i have Learning 5 Analytical mind 5 Spatial awarness 5 empathy 5 iron will 5 instant recall 5 logic 5 clarity 4 presence 4 focus 4 eidetic memory 4 and i have no implants NOW if i had every advanced learning skills on 5 + full set of the best attubute implants witch are i think the +5 1's what would my attributes be then? Your current attributes are actually: 19.80 Intelligence 19.80 Perception 16.50 Charisma 16.50 Willpower 19.80 Memory With maxed out learning skills and a full set of +5 improved implants, your attributes would be: 25.30 Intelligence 26.40 Perception 23.10 Charisma 23.10 Willpower 26.40 Memory Originally by: Daniel Jackson and yes i really traned logic to lev 5 So do I......along with Clarity, Eidetic Memory, Focus, and Presence. --- Back in charge at XenTech!
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.09.08 06:28:00 - [116] Further clarification of training time calculations are available on another post here. Information regarding what exactly "payoff" for training these skills means can be found in that thread on page 5. "There are 10 kinds of people: Those who understand binary, and those who do not." ---
Commander Glorn	Posted - 2005.09.20 16:20:00 - [117] Ok I'm a newb and I know it. I'm getting a lot of information about attribs and learning. Most of it wrong or missleading. I got a char and was/am planning to max learning fist. That means learning to lvl 5 in all attribs except char because this char is combat only and then getting them all to lvl 5 again with advanced learning. Then get learning to lvl 5 as well. I don't want to spend 5 years doing this, at least all at once. How high should I train my learning skills for the maxium benifit in the least amount of time? I've been told the best way to do this is to get intel/mem/perc/will to lvl 4 in basic and do lvl 5, advanced, and learning latter. Am I on the right track? I'm one confused newb.
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.09.20 23:51:00 - [118] You are on the right track. I'd recommend starting with the basic intelligence and memory skills. I'd take them to level 4, then train Learning up maybe 2 levels. Finish training int and mem to lv 5, then advanced int and mem to level 4. Then train up the other basic learning skills to level 5 and train their advanced versions to level 4. With Learning 5, Basic Int, Mem, Perc, & Will at level 5 and their advanced versions at level 4, you'll be pretty happy and you won't have spent 6 months training. Go ahead and train 2-3 levels of the basic charisma skill in there too. Helps for training Focus up. ---
Thorindor	Posted - 2005.09.22 00:45:00 - [119] thanks it's nice to know i'm on the right track
Commander Glorn	Posted - 2005.09.22 00:46:00 - [120] Edited by: Commander Glorn on 22/09/2005 00:46:23 sry had wrong char above post is mine
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.17 19:44:00 - [121] Hey guys, thanks a load for this thread. I have a very curious mind so I have managed to take the notes from this thread and put together a bit of php to calculate skill times. This is the first attempt so its not pretty as yet. So anyone who wants to take a copy of it your welcome. If its wrong, please let me know. I will be tidying it up over the next few days or so, will post when Ive made an update. My php skill thingy
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.18 01:42:00 - [122] Well, if I knew how to program in php I'd help ya out. When the program's finished, I'd be more than happy to do some calculation checking, though. ---
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.18 20:50:00 - [123] Hey thanks Tripoli, Ive been tinkering with this in my spare time, got the beginnings of opening it up to people done tonight, I hope to eventually use the Character sheet XML. Anyway I put a new version up, for those who know php the source is availiable so click the relevant link. More stuff yet to be added just dont have much time, maybe I should start a new thread on this? So Viewable Link and the Source Linkage
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.19 02:29:00 - [124] Edited by: Tripoli on 19/10/2005 02:28:58 At long last I have updated this old thread. This post has been updated to include information about the Advanced learning skills and even a reference to the future Elite learning skills that so many of us are hoping for. Check out page 1 to see the revised post. ---
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.19 09:39:00 - [125] Right, so you have re-factored the way an attribute is calculated. Cool I'll change that over tonight. With any luck my calculations will match yours :) Oh incase you wondered I put the adv skill lvl and skill lvl together (hence the 9 bonus). I have a furtther plan for this thing Im working on but if I told you what that was I may have to shoot you, but Im not doing PVP yet ;)
davidfire	Posted - 2005.10.19 19:09:00 - [126] hi and where i put the rank of the skill???? ( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) / ( PriAttrib + ( SecAttrib / 2 ) ) where it go??? thanks David
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.19 23:41:00 - [127] Edited by: Tripoli on 19/10/2005 23:42:33 Originally by: davidfire hi and where i put the rank of the skill???? ( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) / ( PriAttrib + ( SecAttrib / 2 ) ) where it go??? thanks David Good question. Technically, rank has nothing to do with this forula. "( SPNeeded - CurrentSP )" basically includes this already. Rank simply determines exactly how many SP are needed for a certain level of a certain skill. For a Rank(1) skill the levels are: 1: 250 SP 2: 1,414 SP 3: 8,000 SP 4: 45,255 SP 5: 256,000 SP For a higher rank skill, each level is simply that many SP*rank, so for a Rank(3) skill it's: 1: 750 SP 2: 4,242 SP 3: 24,000 SP 4: 135,765 SP 5: 768,000 SP If you were training a Rank(2) skill from level 2 to level 3, that portion of the forumla would be filled out like so: ( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) ( 16000 - 2828 ) ...which equals the total number of skill points not already trained that are needed to reach the next level. ---
davidfire	Posted - 2005.10.20 03:23:00 - [128] thanks! you rule DavidFire
Eliza Renoir	Posted - 2005.10.23 20:47:00 - [129] Ok, just to mention something that eases the whole process (for the user especially, if you're making some kind of application using these numbers). Instead of messing with 'implants', 'attribute skills', 'base values' and 'learning skill', all you need is 'eve attribute' and 'learning skill'. 'eve attribute' is the value that EVE shows in the 'attribute'-part of the character sheet (i.e. actual value, just truncated), and 'learning skill' is the level of the learning skill. So, instead of having your user plot in 4 numbers, and also figure out those four numbers (checking 1 or 2 attribute skills, implant tab, learning skill and magically remembering base attribute (unless there's some way of seeing this? there might be, but i don't know of it :)), you enter two, simple-to-find values. How do you get the proper value? Use this simple formula: learningMultiplier = 1 + (learningSkill * 0.02) // Old news. actualSkill = ceil(truncatedValue/learningMultiplier) * learningMultiplier. Tadaa! ceil is a function that rounds a number up to closest whole integer. truncatedValue is the value EVE shows. Example: My character sheet says I have 15 memory, and that I have Learning Lvl 4. learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08. actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(13.88889) * 1.08 = 141.08 = 15.12. Now, mathematically it's not that much easier, but it uses numbers that are way* easier to find. (Atleast for a poor newbie like me) There might be err in my ways; if so: let me know. But this is what I'm using on my application. :) Am I making any sense? Kindest regards, Eliza Renoir.
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.24 14:20:00 - [130] Interesting, your using the ceiling for your round ups, whereas Im using the floor value on most. I think we have to ask Tripoli what is best? Or is it the case of > .5 round up < .5 round down?
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.25 05:06:00 - [131] Very interesting, Eliza. I played around with it a bit and never found an instance where that didn't work. I just may have to add that in to my original post. Many thanks. ---
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.25 23:01:00 - [132] Well after working on this for the past two days Im happy with the results :) You can noew fill in the form and get results :) May I be too hasty to say that I have it working with both the IGB and outside the IGB. So In game use the In Game Calc Otherwise use Web Eve Skill Calc Thanks goto all the people that contributed stuff to Tripoli and of course the man himself, more improvements to come perhaps, feel free to drop me an eve-mail in game
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.26 01:34:00 - [133] Edited by: Tripoli on 26/10/2005 01:35:03 Very nice. Looks like it works pretty well. One thing I noticed whas that the SP Needed came out 1 SP too high on the calculation I did. It was 48,000 SP Rank(6) training to lv 4. Int 28 Mem 28 Learning 5. For some reason it said there was 1 more SP to be trained than there actually was, which in turn threw off the total time calculation by 2 seconds. Same thing on the in-game version. ---
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.10.26 10:22:00 - [134] Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 26/10/2005 10:24:14 Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 26/10/2005 10:23:48 Most odd... Everything looks correct, I'll update it tonight anyway with a small improvement, just to check things heres what it tells me Current SP : 48,000 Total SP Required : 271,530 SP Required : 223,530 Time : 3 Days 14 Hours 50 Minutes 29 Seconds Can you see which bit may be wrong? By the way its the same code that runs both the IGB version and the Web version, so if its wrong in one its wrong in the other :) Oh the power of templates :) By the way its the same code that runs both the IGB version and the Web version, so if its wrong in one its wrong in the other :) Oh the power of templates :)
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.27 05:32:00 - [135] Well, according to EVE, a Rank(6) skill has 271,529 SP for level 4, not 271,529. Maybe this is one of those wierd instances where EVE's rounding causes this, and when the skill completes it actually stops at 271,530. I checked the program against a few other skills and it came out perfect. That's EVE for ya. ---
Viv Savage	Posted - 2005.10.27 11:49:00 - [136] Edited by: Viv Savage on 27/10/2005 11:52:29 Originally by: Tripoli Perception is (4+5+3+3)(1+(50.02) = 16.2 Willpower is (7+5+2+3)(1+(50.02) = 19.44 Great post Tripoli but the math looks like it needs to be clarified a smidge with these. (this is the equation for missile launcher operation) I have perception equalling 16.5 with that equation and willpower equalling 18.7... maybe a wrong cut/paste adjustment? I could be wrong. thanks
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.10.28 01:26:00 - [137] Originally by: Viv Savage Originally by: Tripoli Perception is (4+5+3+3)(1+(50.02) = 16.2 Willpower is (7+5+2+3)(1+(50.02) = 19.44 Great post Tripoli but the math looks like it needs to be clarified a smidge with these. (this is the equation for missile launcher operation) I have perception equalling 16.5 with that equation and willpower equalling 18.7... maybe a wrong cut/paste adjustment? I could be wrong. thanks Good catch. That's what I get for writing these things at 2 in the morning. You are correct. I've updated the post. ---
Jordan Newton	Posted - 2005.11.04 10:16:00 - [138] Edited by: Jordan Newton on 04/11/2005 10:18:03 Eithercase the learning skill gives 2% increase in all and each atributes and no need to worry too much about when u aply it If Learning Skill each level is 0.02 increase of each attribute then Learning Level 1 = Factor 0.02 Learning Level 2 = Factor 0.04 etc But u can be certain that this skill affects attributes not points needed, and the order of the calculations is 1) Base attribute 2) Skill for this attribute 3) Implant for this attribute 4) Learning factor (Base + SkillEnhancer + Impant) * Learning factor Learning Skill affects only the effective attributes and the skill points needed remain the same The best recomandation i can do is that u plan wich skills u will study next ej: I want to start studing first Engeenering class skills As the Engeenering class skills will all require Intelligence (primary) and memory (secundary) u can consider to boost your intelligence first (the Dominant) cuz u know that memory will be halved and will be not the dominant factor in the learning of engeenering; upgrading Analitical Mind to 5 is top priority, then if you plan to specialize on this class u can consider to upgrade your Memory Skill to level 5 also, but if you do not plan to be an Engeener Profesional then u can move on over other learning skills. The learning skill This skill is optimal to any who wishes to add a maximum of 10% extra on their learning capabilities, making this skill much more useful for "know it all" users, but a litle less useful for specialists. For "know it all" characters, maxing the base attributes of memory and intelligence at the very first character creation is a good start for the learning class skills and makin the "long term" investment of time, shorter and productive. Before maxing any learning class skills u must consider the involved time over the leveling of the skill, if your character is low on memory and intelligence (learning class primary and secondary attributes) then the learning skills will be a huge invest in learning time and u can be stuck on the leveling of this skills for long time, wich its not the funiest thing to do. For a specialist on social (ej) may not be the best investment as your memory and intel may not be high: Empathy Skill and Prescence Skill are twice effective than any other learning skill Social + (1/2)(Memory) BASE Using some algebra: Social = 1 * Social and 1/2 Memory = 0.5 Memory and 10% extra (learning 5) = 1.1 :: [1(Social) + (0.5Memory)] * 1.1 = [1.1(1Social)] + [1.1(0.5Memory)] = (2.1Social) + (1.6Memory) For the Primary with learning 5 2.1 effective Secondary with learning 5 1.6 effective The relation of those is: 2.1/1.6 = 1.3125 with learning without learning would be: 2/1.5 = 1.33333^ this means that there is a drop on the difference between the secondary and the primary relation by 0.02083333^ (~2%) The drop on the relation means that your secondary attribute has increased its relative importance against you primary attribute by 2%. You may gain 10% extra overall, but your secondary attribute is 2% more importan! Be careful and plan your character
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.11.07 00:11:00 - [139] What he said. ---
Wukwuk	Posted - 2005.11.09 17:25:00 - [140] Doesn't seem to work for me ... please help out Base stats: 8 - 5 - 14 - 7 - 6 (I took Sebiestor / Manager, don't laugh...) Learning Sk: 4 - 4 - 3 - 3 - 4 Implants: +1 each Shoud be: 14,04 - 10,8 - 19,44 - 11,88 - 11,88 Shown as: 14 - 10 - 18 - 11 - 11 Problems: 1) CHA should be shown as 19, not 18 2) Skill times are all over the map, i. e. Analytical Mind 4 --> 5 EVE says: 7D 17H 50M 31S Eve Skill Calc says: 7D 7H 47M 47S My Excel sheet: 7D 7H 47M 48S So my sheet does what the Skill Calc does, it's just that EVE does not agree :( What am I doing wrong?
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.11.11 21:02:00 - [141] I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this. Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4. learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08. actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2 learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 0.02) = 1.04. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72. Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks
Dak Brogan	Posted - 2005.11.12 23:51:00 - [142] Originally by: Xaviar Rigo I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this. Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4. learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08. actualSkill = ceil(15/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2 learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 0.02) = 1.04. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72. Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks In your calculation for Learning Level 4 you used the Memory level of 15 instead of 18.
Xaviar Rigo	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:32:00 - [143] Typo :).. corrected
VoodooVane	Posted - 2005.11.20 05:20:00 - [144] Nice thread, thanks Tripoli. 3asbeh.com
Jordan Newton	Posted - 2005.12.04 00:00:00 - [145] I found a problem on this calculations Originally by: Xaviar Rigo Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 13/11/2005 22:31:30 actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. The same example Memory 18 Learning 4 Learning Multipy = 4 1.02 = 1.08 Effective Atribute use while learning = 18 * 1.08 = 19.44 With learning 2 Learning factor = 2 * 1.02 = 1.04 Effective attribute use while learning = 18 * 1.04 = 18.72 * Note +2% of a value - is equal to - 1.02 * value
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.05 00:40:00 - [146] Originally by: Jordan Newton I found a problem on this calculations Originally by: Xaviar Rigo actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. The same example Memory 18 Learning 4 Learning Multipy = 4 1.02 = 1.08 Effective Atribute use while learning = 18 * 1.08 = 19.44 His attibute was listed as 18 in-game. The in-game attributes listed include the Learning skill bonus already. So his actual attribute must be 18.xx. I have yet to find an example where Xaviar's forumla is incorrect. ---
Siigari Kitawa	Posted - 2005.12.12 15:24:00 - [147] It shows me it will only take me 8 days and some change to train to learning level 5. You guys are confusing my head. ____ Click me
Darthrenegade	Posted - 2005.12.12 20:18:00 - [148] Cache cleared.
Tripoli	Posted - 2005.12.13 05:33:00 - [149] What don't you understand? ---
Harold Griffin	Posted - 2005.12.29 16:04:00 - [150] Edited by: Harold Griffin on 29/12/2005 16:05:52 The first post although true, does not include how 'tiered' skills are. To put it simply: after the level 5 of a skill, the level 1 of the next skill that needs it as a prerequisite is a lot less. Meaning, if you train the basic learning skills (spatial awareness etc) from level 4 to level 5, there it will take a relative long time to get to the payoff time. But after you learned those from level 4 to level 5, the advanced learning skills are open for learning. And the level 1 to level 2 for those skills take LESS time then the level 4 to 5 of the basic one you just completed. So the payoff time for those new available skills is shorter. This may influence your choice in whether or not to stop doing learning skill training. IE. I personally don't really know if I like the game in over a year, so when the learning skills take more then a year to payoff on average, I'll stop and just do the rest in order without learning new learning skills. (seriously, why did they have the category and one of the skills both named as 'learning' that just makes it ten times harder to talk about all this then it should be. Change the name please!) Now if say it takes for instance 1 year and a day to payoff for level 4 to 5 of the basic learning skills, But the level 1 skill behind it takes one day to get payoff, it is still wise for me to continue, because both taken together I would have a payoff that is less then only the first one. part one For example, take someone who has 15 for all attributes (and no learning) and learns spatial awareness 4->5 and all the others of the same kind as well (let's assume for a moment they don't influence eachother) It will take 2107455 skillpoints extra. Your average attribute increase would be 1, which gives 1.5 extra skillpoint per minute. So the payoff of this would be 702483 minutes and 20 secs on average part 2 Clarity, which is a rank 3 skill, takes 750 skill points from level 0 to level 1. All the others of that kind as well. Again, if you do all 5, the atribute would be raised on average of 1. And will give 1.5 extra skillpoints per minute. But the payoff for this would be only 2500 minutes. part 3 Now if you take both together, you have a total skillpoints you invest: 5(210745+750) = 1057475. Your attributes are 2 increased, so on average 2 * 1,5 = 3 extra skillpoints per minute. The payoff time for doing both in sequence and treating them as one is thus: 352491 minutes and 40 seconds. conclusion So for deciding whether or not to continue with learning, you must not only look at the skills level itself, but also what the skill levels after that are able to give you. In Dutch the word used for this is "disconteren" but I'm not really sure about the english word. If you understand this principle, you'll make a better decision about when to learn and when not to learn, since you can determine the exact time when you don't want to learn anymore for your reasons (ie, presume the example above and if you decide: if it takes over 50000 minutes to payoff for all the learning skills together, you now know you should continue learning, whereas if you didn't use the method, you'd not know you'd actually be better off learning). I'm not really good at explaining, but I hope it's clear.
Xebtar Jimnanber	Posted - 2005.12.29 17:58:00 - [151] i am not the best at these calcualations so please let me know if this plan is flawed: Throughout this process I will be training skills here and there as i decide I want a new ship or a specific piece of equipment. It would seem to me that doing the instant recall>analytic mind>learning loop to level 4 would be a good start. Then training recall to 5 and eidectic memory to 3 following by analytic mind to 5 and logic to 3 would give you the most bang for your buck SP wise before training the other learning skills. Then it should be relatively quick to get learning to 5 and the others to 4 and not horribly long to get them to 5/3 like memory and intelligence
Enterprise Yasari	Posted - 2006.01.01 10:53:00 - [152] Edited by: Enterprise Yasari on 01/01/2006 10:57:19 When training learning skills, I noticed something, which seems to be apparent with most skills. That being, the time it takes vs. the benefit of it. The benefit however, is best seen from level 0-4 on most skills. They best reflect that in the time it takes to get there its a decent benefit. However, most of the time, level 4-5 are more often than not just prequisites for something better, and that that benefit of the level 5 rarely reflects the time it took. This isn't the case (thankfully) for the basic learning skills, for they take around a month to learn. However for advanced learning, there lies the problem. After level 4 on an advanced learning skill, it will take a hefty amount of time, for that very small increase. Over time, this adds up of course, but if your attributes are already high, then it would be pointless to train it unless to reduce the amount of time on some very high ranked level 5 skills (think the Dreadnought skill). This being said, rather than go by formula, I simply watch the change that my attribute affect on a rough estimate. I notice that often enough, that 1 or two point increase in attributes is most effective when they are lower, however when your attributes are higher, the benefits become much less. Instead of shaving off days, you shave off minutes. Those minutes DO add up, BUT, for the time it takes for those few extra minutes, it may be better to train something that gives faster and more direct benefit at the time at hand. More often than not, a level 5 skill is only necessary to move on to something better, and its benefit is rarely too small to just train for the sake of its benefit, except if your specializing. For example, most would not normally train Amarr Cruiser to 5 for the benefit to T1 Amarr Cruisers - most would rather do that to gain access to HACs for the benefit of the cruisers AND the HAC benefit. Another example, is that most would not train Small Energy Beam Specialization from 4 to 5 unless they were specifically going for that small extra benefit of it because the ships they primarily use invovle using small T2 beams. This is because level 4 of that is one of the requirments for Medium Energy Beam Specialization, not level 5. And then with Learning, most would not train learning skills from level 4 to 5 just for the sake of that extra point - most do it for the additional, quick points gained from the initial advanced learning. To summarize, weigh the time, weigh the benefit, and decide in the long run - I personally would not train the Advanced to level 5 until later on when, with the oncomming of longer and longer skill times, it would be much more useful. (And yes, I know I restated ideas, dont kill me for it.) -Ent
Icek Villawrov	Posted - 2006.01.02 17:28:00 - [153] I was just doing tha calculations to find my base attributes. What's "roundup"? __________________________ __________________________ Icek Villawrov Moa pilot Crimson Fleet Corporation "if someone says they have a great idea, turn around and run the other way"
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.03 05:49:00 - [154] Originally by: Icek Villawrov I was just doing tha calculations to find my base attributes. What's "roundup"? That is the part that has to do with calculating your current non-truncated attributes without knowing what your base attributes were. When I say "roundup" I mean to round whatever number you get up to the next whole integer, even it that number is 20.07, it should be rounded up to 21.00 for that calculation. Once you have followed that forumla, you can do the math backwards to find your base numbers. Take the numbers you get and divide them by your learning skill multiplier. If you have learing 5, calculate it as: Attribute/1.1 This will give your your attribute wihout the learning skill bonus. Then simply subtract whatever improvements you've recieved from the other learning skills and implants (will all be whole numbers) and you'll have your base attribute. ---
Jaxinna Kador	Posted - 2006.01.06 15:33:00 - [155] Tripoli, if you are still watching this forums page, could you give me a list of the ranks' sp levels. You gave rank 1 & 3 above, and I'd like the others if you could. Also, could you give me a formula for breaking minutes into days, hours, minutes, seconds. Thank you.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.09 02:23:00 - [156] Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Tripoli, if you are still watching this forums page, could you give me a list of the ranks' sp levels. You gave rank 1 & 3 above, and I'd like the others if you could. The SP levels are simply multiplied by the rank. The rank 1 SP levels are: Level 1: 250 Level 2: 1,414 Level 3: 8,000 Level 4: 45,255 Level 5: 256,000 To figure out what the Rank(x) SP levels are, simply multiply those numbers by x. Example: A rank(14) level 4 skill requires 45,255 * 14 = 633,570 skill points. Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Also, could you give me a formula for breaking minutes into days, hours, minutes, seconds. Thank you. D = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 / 24 ) H = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 ) - ( D * 24 ) M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 24 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) S = RoundDown ( Minutes * 60 ) - ( M * 60 ) - ( H * 60 * 60 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 * 60 ) [ RoundDown means to round the result down to the nearest whole integer. ] So, X minutes = D:H:M:S ---
Bliss Burning	Posted - 2006.01.09 09:20:00 - [157] Edited by: Bliss Burning on 09/01/2006 09:21:25 I was bored so I wrote a short little program that does what's described in the first post. It gives you a readout of your actual attributes and the amount of time needed to complete a skill. Mind you I'm a C++ n00b, the program works but it's not a very efficient way of coding and it's a little sloppy and unstructured. It doesn't do error checking either so if you plug any ole number in there, expect to get some funny results. It's written in C++ so you'll need a compiler, free ones aren't hard to find, I used Dev-C++ for this. (Google it.) I'd offer a pre-compiled version but you don't know me from Adam and for all you know it could be a virus. I'm not going to bother explaining each detail of the program either. If you know a little about computers, you should be able to tell whether or not it's malicious, if you don't know, ask someone who does. So here's the source code (you need to save it as a .cpp or .c file): http://www.geocities.com/townsendw3g/skillcalc.txt
Amaravati	Posted - 2006.01.09 12:14:00 - [158] Ohh Dear god..... one question and I mean this in a completely NON-demeaning way.. But WHY? Your meant to play a game and enjoy it, not spend ALL your time working out formula's therefore not having a life outside of thinking or playing EVE.. And don't bother saying you do plenty... you all spend way too much time playing this game IMHO. In your honour I have spent a little time this morning (about 10 mins) working out my own formula to calculate just how sad some people are. Please take a look..... S^ / D x (G + N / 2 x C) x p^ - ESP = L Now to explain... ^ Is to the power of two ========================= S = Social Value Worked out as below: A (Alcohol Tolerance) x F (Friends) = S (Social Value) ========================= D = Depression V (Age virginity lost) + G (Number of girlfriends) / W (number of times you "see" to yourself a week) ========================= G = Geek Factor T (Time indoors) x I (internet bill) = G (Geek Factor) ========================= N = Nerd Factor (not to be confused with geek factor) Bo (Body Odour) x E (Eye prescription strength) - D (Times teeth brushed daily) = N (Nerd Factor) ========================= C = Time making formula's for EVE Skill calculations P = Age left your parent's house ========================= Hope this helps. Don't think it will be as accurate as some of yours but hey... I've only spent ten minute's on it. Ohhhh Wellà. ill leave ya'll to it and wait for the "witty" replies. Oh and remember all, nothing you say will make the slightest bit of difference. So If i were you geeks I would ignore this post, hopefully someone with a life will wonder into this forum one day and ***** a smile at it. Toodles
Bliss Burning	Posted - 2006.01.09 18:43:00 - [159] Ever stop to consider that maybe some people have really boring computer jobs? I don't know about everyone else but I work a 12 hour shift from 8pm - 8am and check a website 4 times an hour.... Lots of spare time to read, study for college, write crappy code, annoy people like you, etc. Oh, and I go out at least once a week so if you're ever in Georgia for any reason, hit me up, I know all kinds of clubs and chicks around here.
Terellion	Posted - 2006.01.09 22:25:00 - [160] Originally by: Xaviar Rigo Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 13/11/2005 22:31:30 I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this. Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4. learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2 learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 0.02) = 1.04. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72. Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks Did someone have found the flaw about this? because I have the same result as him, and it's worry me
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.10 03:12:00 - [161] Originally by: Terellion Originally by: Xaviar Rigo Edited by: Xaviar Rigo on 13/11/2005 22:31:30 I may of found a bit of a problem with Eliza's method. Bear with me on this. Example: You have 18 memory, and Learning Lvl 4. learningMultiplier = 1 + (4 * 0.02) = 1.08. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.08) * 1.08 = ceil(16.66666) * 1.08 = 171.08 = 18.36. Hoewever with the same skill but learning level 2 learningMultiplier = 1 + (2 0.02) = 1.04. actualSkill = ceil(18/1.04) * 1.04 = ceil(17.307) * 1.08 = 18*1.04 = 18.72. Therefore giving you more intelligence at a lower learning level Can someone double check Im not going mad... thanks Did someone have found the flaw about this? because I have the same result as him, and it's worry me I'm sorry, completely didn't realize that question hadn't been resolved. Yes, a rather simple flaw, really. In the second example the attribute would have displayed as 17 in-game, not 18. The actual attribute would have been 17.68. --- WTB Rare Skills --- Bloodraider Encryption Methods Serpentis Encryption Methods Talocan Technology Yan Jung Technology
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.10 03:41:00 - [162] Edited by: Tripoli on 10/01/2006 03:41:46 Originally by: Amaravati one question and I mean this in a completely NON-demeaning way.. But WHY? Because I can. Originally by: Amaravati In your honour I have spent a little time this morning (about 10 mins) working out my own formula to calculate just how sad some people are. Please take a look..... S^ / D x (G + N / 2 x C) x p^ - ESP = L Now to explain... ^ Is to the power of two ========================= S = Social Value Worked out as below: A (Alcohol Tolerance) x F (Friends) = S (Social Value) ========================= D = Depression V (Age virginity lost) + G (Number of girlfriends) / W (number of times you "see" to yourself a week) ========================= G = Geek Factor T (Time indoors) x I (internet bill) = G (Geek Factor) ========================= N = Nerd Factor (not to be confused with geek factor) Bo (Body Odour) x E (Eye prescription strength) - D (Times teeth brushed daily) = N (Nerd Factor) ========================= C = Time making formula's for EVE Skill calculations P = Age left your parent's house ========================= Hope this helps. Don't think it will be as accurate as some of yours but hey... I've only spent ten minute's on it. Well you used the variables D and G twice, so I used different values for each of them. Lots of information that didn't even get used in your formula, BTW. But no matter. Of course many of these numbers were simple estimations, but I came up with an impressive 692,734,109.76 for myself. Yes, I actually made an Excel spreadsheet for this. Based on what I know about you, I came up with a score of 5,080,951.33. I win. --- WTB Rare Skills --- Bloodraider Encryption Methods Serpentis Encryption Methods Talocan Technology Yan Jung Technology
Amaravati	Posted - 2006.01.10 09:12:00 - [163] erm.. you wer'nt meant to actually use it... i just jotted some stuff down and posted it... =S Therefore I actually have no concept as to what would actually be a good score... the sheer act of using surely means I have better thigs to do with my time! Hate to say this but is'nt the fact that you actually put it in excel and tried to use it a little erm.... sad??
Jhaden	Posted - 2006.01.10 09:15:00 - [164] Ohh dear Amaravati..... OH DEAR... Do you have nothing better to do? Yes the calculations must have taken some time... But if you stopped to consider them they are nice to know. I for one had been wondering about how it was all worked out! Hi all by the way =) Thanks for the info, new to game so found this kinda handy.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.11 01:47:00 - [165] Originally by: Amaravati erm.. you wer'nt meant to actually use it... i just jotted some stuff down and posted it... =S Therefore I actually have no concept as to what would actually be a good score... the sheer act of using surely means I have better things to do with my time! Hate to say this but is'nt the fact that you actually put it in excel and tried to use it a little erm.... sad?? To each their own, Amaravati. Now if you'll excuse me, I just bought my 266th skill, and I've got a few things I need to take care of. --- WTB Rare Skills --- Bloodraider Encryption Methods Talocan Technology Yan Jung Technology
Amaravati	Posted - 2006.01.11 23:18:00 - [166] ahh yet more proof of to much time spent on computers.........
Bliss Burning	Posted - 2006.01.12 04:20:00 - [167] Okay, I've updated the program I wrote for this. The code looks a lot nicer and the program runs a little better. I'm also including a link to a pre-compiled version in addition to the source code. Like I said before, you don't know me from Adam, so if you're unsure, have someone you know who's computer savvy take a look at the source code and compile it for you. If you're the trusting type, the precompiled executable is the one for you. Source Code Ready to run, Compiled Version
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.01.15 20:12:00 - [168] I started playing (and loving ) this game after RMR came out, so I don't know about anything that was before. But after doing some testing I am pretty sure that right now the skill "Learning" applies its bonus only to the "base" attribute, not to the modified value! I started, for example, with Mem 11 and Int 8, and now have 4 points Learning, Instant Recall and Analytical Mind each. If Learning applied its bonus to the modified value, I should now have 16,2 Mem and 12,96 Int. The first thing that struck me was that the game says I've Mem 15, not 16. So I started calculating how long my skills should take to learn, and compared the outcome with the learning durations shown ingame. And guess what, the game wants me to learn longer than I thought. To verify, I applied the Learning-bonus only to the starting values, leading to 15,88 Mem and 12,64 Int. Now, using these values to calculate the learning time of skill xy gave almost the exact same duration that the game showed (why only "almost"? I wish I knew. But the numbers were much, much closer than before, mere minutes off, instead of over an hour). I hope someone can either explain this (I still hope it's just some kind of display error...) or verify my observation.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.15 21:14:00 - [169] Originally by: Vorphalak I started playing (and loving ) this game after RMR came out, so I don't know about anything that was before. But after doing some testing I am pretty sure that right now the skill "Learning" applies its bonus only to the "base" attribute, not to the modified value! I started, for example, with Mem 11 and Int 8, and now have 4 points Learning, Instant Recall and Analytical Mind each. If Learning applied its bonus to the modified value, I should now have 16,2 Mem and 12,96 Int. The first thing that struck me was that the game says I've Mem 15, not 16. So I started calculating how long my skills should take to learn, and compared the outcome with the learning durations shown ingame. And guess what, the game wants me to learn longer than I thought. To verify, I applied the Learning-bonus only to the starting values, leading to 15,88 Mem and 12,64 Int. Now, using these values to calculate the learning time of skill xy gave almost the exact same duration that the game showed (why only "almost"? I wish I knew. But the numbers were much, much closer than before, mere minutes off, instead of over an hour). I hope someone can either explain this (I still hope it's just some kind of display error...) or verify my observation. I suspect that you were born with Instant Recall level 1, giving you an actual base memory of 10, and a current value of 15.12, not 16.2. Plug 15.12 and 12.96 into the forumla and I bet it comes out dead on. --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Halada	Posted - 2006.01.15 21:21:00 - [170] Your formula on 1st post is flawed...or so according to my calculations. My attributes (with learning level 4): Int: 171.08= 18.36 Mem: 231.08= 24.84 Astrogeology to level 5, according to your formula would take: (768000-135765)/(18.36+(24.84/2))= 20540.45 minutes, which is 14 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes and 27 sec (give or take). However, EVE reports 15d,1h,21m,35s ... we're talking 18 hours more here. What's going on here?
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.01.15 21:31:00 - [171] Edited by: Vorphalak on 15/01/2006 21:34:37 Originally by: TripoliI suspect that you were born with Instant Recall level 1, giving you an actual base memory of 10, and a current value of 15.12, not 16.2. Plug 15.12 and 12.96 into the forumla and I bet it comes out dead on.[/quote Damn I wouldn't have thought of that. Can't verify this right now, but I will :) Edit: Btw, I assume every character has the same sum of attribute points at birth...does anyone know how many?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.15 21:34:00 - [172] Originally by: Halada Your formula on 1st post is flawed...or so according to my calculations. My attributes (with learning level 4): Int: 171.08= 18.36 Mem: 231.08= 24.84 Astrogeology to level 5, according to your formula would take: (768000-135765)/(18.36+(24.84/2))= 20540.45 minutes, which is 14 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes and 27 sec (give or take). However, EVE reports 15d,1h,21m,35s ... we're talking 18 hours more here. What's going on here? No flaw in the forumla. Remember the learning skill bonus is applied before your attributes are calculated, then truncated on you skill sheet. Your attributes are actually: Intelligence: 161.08=17.28 Memory: 221.08=23.76 Produces a result of 15:1:21:35 --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Halada	Posted - 2006.01.15 21:53:00 - [173] Thanks for the info :) Now it works to the second :) Awesome!
Vorphalak	Posted - 2006.01.17 08:36:00 - [174] You were absolutely right Tripoli! :) The skill Learning works as intended, I'm just too dumb About the other question, does anyone know (how many attribute points total has every character at birth?)?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.18 01:20:00 - [175] Originally by: Vorphalak About the other question, does anyone know (how many attribute points total has every character at birth?)? 39. --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Womble God	Posted - 2006.01.20 01:03:00 - [176] Edited by: Womble God on 20/01/2006 01:27:14 oooh, i did not understand any of that lot but, oooh. i am crap at working things like that out. all i know is that apparently its gonna take 38 days for me to train gallente cruiser from lvl4 to lvl5, crap.... p.s is there anyway to speed this up? i wanna fly hacs Killing Smurfs without prejudice since 1978
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.01.20 04:59:00 - [177] You can speed that up by adding perception and willpower implants, or by training the following skills (the higher the better): Learning Spatial Awareness Iron Will Clarity Focus --- --- WTB Rare Skill: Yan Jung Technology ---
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.11 11:44:00 - [178] Here's a quick little tool I put together to help calculate the amount of time it takes to train a skill. I used the formulas used in the OP. It's an Excel program using VBA. It should be pretty self explanatory, at least if you are familiar with the attributes. If you are not sure which skills apply to the Basic and Advanced skills for attributes, just mouse over the field you want to know about and the tool tip will display the appropriate skill. Anyone with some skills in VBA and Excel is more than welcome to add to or enhance this. http://comlinkonline.tripod.com/EVE/eveskills.zip
Bubba Theman	Posted - 2006.02.11 21:55:00 - [179] OK I've added all this info into a spreadsheet for my personal use and so far it has worked great...until now. Maybe someone can help me. I've got the formula for figuring my actual attribute: =(ROUNDUP((B8/B4),0))*B4 where B8=attribute showing on attribute tab in EVE B4=Learning multiplier the "0" is MS Excel's way of knowing how many decimal places to use after rounding up. Now I have trained Learning to level 5 (Learning multiplier now 1.1) and that's where I run into the problem. Here are my results when I enter in the following attributes: B8=9 Result=9.9 B8=10 Result=11 B8=11 Result=11 B8=12 Result=12.1 B8=13 Result=13.2 Does this problem make sense. As my attributes raise to 10, my learning multiplier works for me but there is a "correction" at level 11. And then progression starts over again. Tripoli, can you or somebody tell me what I'm missing in my spreadsheet. I see the problem is in the roundup feature (too hard for me to explain). Hopefully someone can see my problem and help me out. Thanks
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.12 05:17:00 - [180] Edited by: Mr Xofar on 12/02/2006 05:20:14 At first glance to your post, since you didn't provide the worksheet itself, is that you may be experiencing a Microsoft Excel "feature", as MS would explain it. When Excel "rounds" a number, it will round up half the time and down the other half. This may cause some inconsistencies for fewer iterations like in your example. However, MS claims that the results are more accurate over a larger number of iterations. I may be completely off about the problem you are experiencing, however, I am confident about the Excel rounding issue. In the meantime, since I am working the late shift again tonight and have nothing to really do, I'll mess around with some cell formulas and post my results... And oBTW, I'll make sure my little Excel program is available by the end of the night, hopefully... EDIT: Sorry, I re-read your post and noticed that you are using the ROUNDUP. This should avoid the problem I described, however, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't matter.
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.12 20:50:00 - [181] Here's my Excel program. http://foxardev.com/misc/EVE.xls
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.12 21:16:00 - [182] Edited by: Tripoli on 12/02/2006 21:20:07 Originally by: Bubba Theman OK I've added all this info into a spreadsheet for my personal use and so far it has worked great...until now. Maybe someone can help me. I've got the formula for figuring my actual attribute: =(ROUNDUP((B8/B4),0))B4 where B8=attribute showing on attribute tab in EVE B4=Learning multiplier the "0" is MS Excel's way of knowing how many decimal places to use after rounding up. Now I have trained Learning to level 5 (Learning multiplier now 1.1) and that's where I run into the problem. Here are my results when I enter in the following attributes: B8=9 Result=9.9 B8=10 Result=11 B8=11 Result=11 B8=12 Result=12.1 B8=13 Result=13.2 Does this problem make sense. As my attributes raise to 10, my learning multiplier works for me but there is a "correction" at level 11. And then progression starts over again. Tripoli, can you or somebody tell me what I'm missing in my spreadsheet. I see the problem is in the roundup feature (too hard for me to explain). Hopefully someone can see my problem and help me out. Thanks Here's the problem. With Learning 5, it is not possible to have an attribute display as "10" in-game. 91.1 = 9.9, displayed as "9" 101.1 = 11.0, displayed as "11" For the same reason, with Learning 5 it is not possible to have an attribute display as "21." 191.1 = 20.9, displayed as "20" 20*1.1 = 22.0, displayed as "22" The progression, starting with base 9 is 9.9, 11.0, 12.1, 13.2, 14.3, etc. --- Skill Collector Level 272 skills trained.
Bubba Theman	Posted - 2006.02.13 03:20:00 - [183] Originally by: Tripoli Here's the problem. With Learning 5, it is not possible to have an attribute display as "10" in-game. 91.1 = 9.9, displayed as "9" 101.1 = 11.0, displayed as "11" For the same reason, with Learning 5 it is not possible to have an attribute display as "21." 191.1 = 20.9, displayed as "20" 201.1 = 22.0, displayed as "22" The progression, starting with base 9 is 9.9, 11.0, 12.1, 13.2, 14.3, etc. So you are saying the progression is: 9=9.9 10=11 11=12.1 12=13.2 etc. What your saying makes sense except...how come I have an attribute of 10 then listed on my character sheet? I know I am really close to getting this so bear with me. I would just use your original formula if I could figure out my base attributes. How do I do that? My list on the character sheet is: Int=17 Perc=9 Char=10 Will=11 Mem=23 P.S. No comments on how gimped I am. I already know
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.13 20:13:00 - [184] Okay, just when I think I have it figured out, things start to NOT make sense. Here is the prgression of attribute displayed as 18 in game. Using the formula Actual Attribute = (RoundUp(TruncatedAttrib/LearningMultiplier)*LearningMultiplier)) LLvlMultiplierCurrentBase 0 1.00 1818.00 1 1.02 1818.36 2 1.04 1818.72 3 1.06 1818.02 4 1.08 1818.36 5 1.10 1818.70 It just seems odd to me that both Learning Levels 1 and 4 yield the same Base with a currently displayed attribute score of 18. I would expect the base score to progress to a lower value. ???
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.14 01:24:00 - [185] Your calculations are accurate. Remember, what is displayes in-game does take the Learning skill into account, it's just got the decimals chopped off. So, if it displays 18, then the following cases are possible: 18 * 1.00 = 18.00 with Learning 0 18 * 1.02 = 18.36 with Learning 1 18 * 1.04 = 18.72 with Learning 2 17 * 1.06 = 18.02 with Learning 3 17 * 1.08 = 18.36 with Learning 4 17 * 1.10 = 18.70 with Learning 5 Note that sometimes the actual base number being multiplied is an integer less than the number displayed. It's even possible for that number to be 2 integers lower....maybe even three. Using this reasoning, you can determine what your actual base attributes were. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.14 01:53:00 - [186] Originally by: Tripoli Your calculations are accurate. Remember, what is displayes in-game does take the Learning skill into account, it's just got the decimals chopped off. So, if it displays 18, then the following cases are possible: 18 * 1.00 = 18.00 with Learning 0 18 * 1.02 = 18.36 with Learning 1 18 * 1.04 = 18.72 with Learning 2 17 * 1.06 = 18.02 with Learning 3 17 * 1.08 = 18.36 with Learning 4 17 * 1.10 = 18.70 with Learning 5 Note that sometimes the actual base number being multiplied is an integer less than the number displayed. It's even possible for that number to be 2 integers lower....maybe even three. Using this reasoning, you can determine what your actual base attributes were. Ah, very clear now thank you. However, I have another question. Why are we adding the Basic Skill Lvl, Advanced Skill Level, and Implant Bonuses to the equation when those levels/bonuses already appear in the currently displayed Attribute? In other words, doesn't the base value we are calculating already contain the +1 bonuses per level/implant? To find our original scores shouldn't we also deduct the values of the levels/bonuses?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.14 04:16:00 - [187] Originally by: Mr Xofar However, I have another question. Why are we adding the Basic Skill Lvl, Advanced Skill Level, and Implant Bonuses to the equation when those levels/bonuses already appear in the currently displayed Attribute? In other words, doesn't the base value we are calculating already contain the +1 bonuses per level/implant? To find our original scores shouldn't we also deduct the values of the levels/bonuses? The attribute skill levels and implant bonuses really have no effect on the equation. It simply must be understood how they work as well, to fully understand how to calculate or reverse-calculate attributes. The "base level" of the attributes needed to calculate actual attributes does indeed already include those bonuses. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Bubba Theman	Posted - 2006.02.14 04:23:00 - [188] OK it's still slightly confusing to me. However, you have given me enough info to figure out my base attributes. Now I will just use that formula for future skill calcs. Thanks, Tripoli and Mr Xofar, for the help.
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.14 13:16:00 - [189] Edited by: Mr Xofar on 14/02/2006 13:24:41 Edited by: Mr Xofar on 14/02/2006 13:19:45 Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Mr Xofar However, I have another question. Why are we adding the Basic Skill Lvl, Advanced Skill Level, and Implant Bonuses to the equation when those levels/bonuses already appear in the currently displayed Attribute? In other words, doesn't the base value we are calculating already contain the +1 bonuses per level/implant? To find our original scores shouldn't we also deduct the values of the levels/bonuses? The attribute skill levels and implant bonuses really have no effect on the equation. It simply must be understood how they work as well, to fully understand how to calculate or reverse-calculate attributes. The "base level" of the attributes needed to calculate actual attributes does indeed already include those bonuses. Okay, I get it now. The "base level" we are calculating the PrimeAttrib and SecondaryAttrrib from the *(roundup(TruncAttirb/LearningMultiplier)LearningMultiplier) is what is used to plug into the ( SPNeeded - CurrentSP ) / ( PriAttrib + ( SecAttrib / 2 ) ) formula and NOT the value from (base + basic + adv + implant)*...etc. If that is the case, then the ORIGINAL attribute is really (RoundUp((TruncAttrib - Basic - Adv - Implant)/LearningLvl)LearningLvl)) Correct?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.15 05:05:00 - [190] Incorrect. To calculate your true base attribute, the forumla is: ROUNDUP ( displayed_attrib / Learning_Multiplier ) - basic - advanced - implant. Example: My intelligence is displayed as 28, my learning skills are all level 5 and I have a +5 implant. So ROUNDUP(28/1.1)-5-5-5 = 11 Now, you can check your math by doing it backwards: Base 11 + 5 basic + 5 advanced + 5 implant = 26 ...... 26 * 1.1 = 28.6 --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.15 12:11:00 - [191] Edited by: Mr Xofar on 15/02/2006 12:11:32 Originally by: Tripoli Incorrect. To calculate your true base attribute, the forumla is: ROUNDUP ( displayed_attrib / Learning_Multiplier ) - basic - advanced - implant. Example: My intelligence is displayed as 28, my learning skills are all level 5 and I have a +5 implant. So ROUNDUP(28/1.1)-5-5-5 = 11 Now, you can check your math by doing it backwards: Base 11 + 5 basic + 5 advanced + 5 implant = 26 ...... 26 * 1.1 = 28.6 :) That's how I was originally going to post it, but for some reason my brain decided to remove the bonuses from the attribute first. In any case, thanks, I am enlightened and can now adjust my little Excel program accordingly.
F2CMaDMaXX2	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:34:00 - [192] Ahh, xofar i'm glad you're adjusting the excel proggy, i'm just trying that now as the only other online skill calculator has just been proven horrible wrong (made a 1 day 15 hr skill take 3 days and 22 hours) Anyway, does it not matter that your program doesn't ask for the rank of skill you're training? Currently, i'm training industry 3 - 4, this with the current selection is going to take 1d, 12hrs, 50m. According to the excel sheet, it will take 1d, 2hrs. Hope your new one is more complete? otherwise, very nice :)
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:52:00 - [193] Edited by: Mr Xofar on 15/02/2006 18:55:17 Originally by: F2CMaDMaXX2 Ahh, xofar i'm glad you're adjusting the excel proggy, i'm just trying that now as the only other online skill calculator has just been proven horrible wrong (made a 1 day 15 hr skill take 3 days and 22 hours) Anyway, does it not matter that your program doesn't ask for the rank of skill you're training? Currently, i'm training industry 3 - 4, this with the current selection is going to take 1d, 12hrs, 50m. According to the excel sheet, it will take 1d, 2hrs. Hope your new one is more complete? otherwise, very nice :) I don't believe the rank of the skill comes into play. Tripoli may want to answer on this one, however, since it is his formula post that I am using. As I understand it though, only the number of points required to attain the next level is what matters. I should be able to clean up the program's formula by this weekend. So, for now, the calculations are NOT correct. I have further plans for the program to be able to actually see the benefits(or lack thereof) of acquiring the learning skills first. Also, As it is called a "planner" and not a calculator, I will be adding a feature that will allow you to que the skills to see how long it will take to train up a list of skills. This is future, time permitting stuff, of course.
F2CMaDMaXX2	Posted - 2006.02.15 19:09:00 - [194] Edited by: F2CMaDMaXX2 on 15/02/2006 19:10:05 Hmm, ok, i belive that the rank of th skill actually modifies the time taken to train, so i'd hope it was important. However, i could imagine that the total points for the skill may contain the significance of the rank? Meanwhile then, could someone please do this for me, maths is most definately not my strong point Skill is industry Current level: 3 wanted level: 5 primary memory = 9 + 4 modifiers secondry inteligence = 11 + 4 modifiers Also, mining barge to levels 3 and 5 please. Thanks Natural Selection Developer Sound FX
Keeloux Siind	Posted - 2006.02.16 00:00:00 - [195] if you wanna find your basic attributes, then just check XML Data in your character overview in this site.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.16 02:17:00 - [196] For some reason it's alawys a little tough to explain Rank. Rank does not directly have anything to do with skill training time calculation, only the current amount of skill points and the needed amount of skill points matter. Rank is kind of a way of saying "how hard" a skill is, but it simply works as a multiplier. A Rank 2 skill takes exactly twice as long to train as a Rank 1 skill, or to be more specific a Rank 2 skill requires exactly twice as many skill points. A Rank 3 skill takes exactly three times as long to train as a Rank 1 skill. A rank 4 skill takes exactly twice as long to train as a Rank 2 skill......you get the idea. Here are the levels for a Rank 1 skill: Level 1: 250 SP Level 2: 1,414 SP Level 3: 8,000 SP Level 4: 45,255 SP Level 5: 256,000 SP For a Rank 3 skill, for example, the levels would be: Level 1: 750 SP Level 2: 4,242 SP (actually 4,243 thanks to some rounding) Level 3: 24,000 SP Level 4: 135,765 SP Level 5: 768,000 SP --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.16 02:19:00 - [197] Originally by: Keeloux Siind if you wanna find your basic attributes, then just check XML Data in your character overview in this site. You learning something new every day. I had no idea. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Aurick Hinge	Posted - 2006.02.16 12:52:00 - [198] Although I've never heard this mentioned... the extended training times are perfect for when you're taking a break. Start a level 5 training before sub ends.. it continues during your hiatus from the game just a thought
Mr Xofar	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:09:00 - [199] Originally by: Aurick Hinge Although I've never heard this mentioned... the extended training times are perfect for when you're taking a break. Start a level 5 training before sub ends.. it continues during your hiatus from the game just a thought That's the beauty of the offline training feature. I almost always make sure I log off leaving no chance of training downtime until my next login. Good point.
Valanna	Posted - 2006.02.19 05:51:00 - [200] Okay here's v1.1 of my training calculator. Honestly though, it doesn't seem to come up with accurate trainging times. My results differ from the times shown on the in game trainging timer, or here on the web. http://foxardev.com/misc/EVE.zip Tripoli, if you don't mind, when you have time, would you mind confirming the results given by my little proggy.
DrummelHolmen	Posted - 2006.02.19 08:32:00 - [201] Edited by: DrummelHolmen on 19/02/2006 08:32:38 If you want to know your base attribute, just goto "My Character" open your "character sheet" and then press the "XML DATA" link. Within the "Attribute" section your attributes will have the same value as your base attribute. ;)
Valanna	Posted - 2006.02.20 02:17:00 - [202] Okay, v(1.2) of my Training Caculator works. The last test was ony 2 seconds off from the web site. Just plug in the base attributes as they appear in the XML Data as has been suggested. Right now the Primary and Secondary Atts default to Intelligence and Memory, so you will have to change it each time you restart the program. That can easily be changed, but I'm feeling a bit lazy right now and I want to play BF2 with my wife =P http://foxardev.com/misc/EVE.zip
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.02.28 05:55:00 - [203] Valanna, I double checked using a few different examples, and the calculations were always dead-on. --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Julian Tavernier	Posted - 2006.03.05 17:21:00 - [204] There's something I don't understand. A rank 1 skill at level 1 requires 1414 - 250 skill points to be level 2. A rank 1 skill at level 2 requires 8000 - 1415 skill points to be level 3. Where does this 1415th SP come from ?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.06 02:41:00 - [205] It's a rounding thing. I've seen the forumla somewhere, but I can't find it right now. Maybe I can figure it out... --- Skill Collector Level 273 skills trained.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.06 03:00:00 - [206] Edited by: Tripoli on 06/03/2006 03:01:40 Given RANK and LEVEL, you can determine the SP needed for each level like so: Needed SP = RoundUp ( 2 ^ ( 2.5 * ( LEVEL - 1 ) ) * 250 * RANK ) For for a Rank 3 Level 2 skill you need: RoundUp ( 2 ^ ( 2.5 * ( 2 - 1 ) ) * 250 * 3 ) = 4,243 skill points. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Trung Nhi	Posted - 2006.03.17 10:04:00 - [207] I've started this new char with the ^2 deal and currently im planning on keeping her for just 6 months. The question is should i be bothered about getting adv mem / int to lvl 4 if i want to heavily be a pvp char? e.g. what are the pay off times for getting em up on lvl4 compared to the 6 months im gonna play? thx in advance
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.18 05:22:00 - [208] Stop at level 3 or lower. Level 4 is a waste of time below about 9 months. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Silver Bird	Posted - 2006.03.23 21:34:00 - [209] Vary nice work tripoli! Have you thought of making a chart that shows how long it would take to recoup training times per level of learning skills? It could look like Learning skills to level 1 payoff time: ? à Learning skills to level 5 payoff time: 243-406 Days Adv Learning skills to level 1 payoff time: ? à Adv learning skills to level 5 payoff time: 3 Years, 235 Days Could help answer questions like the previous post easily.
Jasahl Toruken	Posted - 2006.03.23 22:40:00 - [210] Ok, after reading most of this thread, I decided to make an Excel Spread sheet that will do all the math for you :) You can download it here: http://www.steeldragonproductions.com/skilltrain.html There is a link on there to download the Excel view also, incase you dont have Excel :)
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.24 03:34:00 - [211] Originally by: Silver Bird Have you thought of making a chart that shows how long it would take to recoup training times per level of learning skills? I've thought about it, but it would have to be a dynamic list, where you input your attributes and the chart would do all the calculating for the various times. Problem is that the true payoff is determined by what you're training. Another large factor is if you're trying to pay off one or two attributes. To produce a proper chat would be a huge amount of work. In my personal opinion, you only need to know two numbers: Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 3 to 4: about 9 months. Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 4 to 5: over 3.5 years. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Dimitri H	Posted - 2006.03.24 17:17:00 - [212] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Silver Bird Have you thought of making a chart that shows how long it would take to recoup training times per level of learning skills? I've thought about it, but it would have to be a dynamic list, where you input your attributes and the chart would do all the calculating for the various times. Problem is that the true payoff is determined by what you're training. Another large factor is if you're trying to pay off one or two attributes. To produce a proper chat would be a huge amount of work. In my personal opinion, you only need to know two numbers: Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 3 to 4: about 9 months. Combined payoff for advanced learnings from 4 to 5: over 3.5 years. Hey, for us new people, what would you think the combined payoff from having no learnings to the adved learns to 3 would be?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.03.24 17:55:00 - [213] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/03/2006 17:55:26 Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Tripoli, if you are still watching this forums page, could you give me a list of the ranks' sp levels. You gave rank 1 & 3 above, and I'd like the others if you could. The SP levels are simply multiplied by the rank. The rank 1 SP levels are: Level 1: 250 Level 2: 1,414 Level 3: 8,000 Level 4: 45,255 Level 5: 256,000 To figure out what the Rank(x) SP levels are, simply multiply those numbers by x. Example: A rank(14) level 4 skill requires 45,255 * 14 = 633,570 skill points. Originally by: Jaxinna Kador Also, could you give me a formula for breaking minutes into days, hours, minutes, seconds. Thank you. D = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 / 24 ) H = RoundDown ( Minutes / 60 ) - ( D * 24 ) M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( H * 24 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) S = RoundDown ( Minutes * 60 ) - ( M * 60 ) - ( H * 60 * 60 ) - ( D * 24 * 60 * 60 ) [ RoundDown means to round the result down to the nearest whole integer. ] So, X minutes = D:H:M:S Found a small typo: M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( *H 24** ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) should be M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( *H 60** ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) Would also like to take the moment to thank you Tripoli for doing all these calculations. They are very helpful. --- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait"
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.25 00:38:00 - [214] Originally by: Jim McGregor Found a small typo: M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( *H 24** ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) should be M = RoundDown ( Minutes ) - ( *H 60** ) - ( D * 24 * 60 ) Whoops. I'll get that fixed. --- Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained.
Camilla Ashiya	Posted - 2006.03.27 12:01:00 - [215] I've just started playing eve and its all so overwhelming how deep it is :P But i was wondering if someone could do the math for me...as in how long the payoff would be to train all the advance learning skills to lvl 2 vs. lvl 3 (learning itself would be at 5) thanks alot, cam
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.28 01:40:00 - [216] Originally by: Camilla Ashiya I've just started playing eve and its all so overwhelming how deep it is :P But i was wondering if someone could do the math for me...as in how long the payoff would be to train all the advance learning skills to lvl 2 vs. lvl 3 (learning itself would be at 5) thanks alot, cam The payoff for training all 5 advanced learning skills from: Level 1 to 2: 7 days 8 hours 24 minutes and 50 seconds Level 2 to 3: 41 days 13 hours 49 minutes and 41 seconds Level 3 to 4: 235 days 4 hours 41 minutes 49 seconds --- Skill Collector Level 276 skills trained.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.03.29 04:58:00 - [217] Edited by: Tripoli on 29/03/2006 05:00:04 I worked out a new way to calculate your actual attributes based on the truncated attributes listed in EVE and your Learning skill level. Now, the easiest way is the way I stated before using a RoundUp function: ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)))(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)) In Excel: =ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)),0)(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)) Since some people can't use a RoundUp function, I developed an IF/THEN/ELSE function that uses RoundDown: IF ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)))(1+(Learning_Lv0.02))<Truncated_Attrib THEN ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02))+1)(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)) ELSE ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)))(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)) In Excel: =IF(ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)),0)(1+(Learning_Lv0.02))<Truncated_Attrib,ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02))+1,0)(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)),ROUNDDOWN(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)),0)(1+(Learning_Lv0.02))) I hope someone finds this useful. --- Skill Collector Level 277 skills trained.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.03.29 11:15:00 - [218] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 29/03/2006 11:22:36 Originally by: Tripoli ROUNDUP(Truncated_Attrib/(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)))(1+(Learning_Lv0.02)) Your calculation seems to be wrong Tripoli. With level 5 Learning Skill, it presently reads; ROUNDUP ( ( TA / 1.1 ) 1.1 ) But that will always = your starting TA Did you mean to have it as; ( ROUNDUP ( TA / 1.1 ) ) * 1.1 Or am I mistaken? Edit: Ah.. I follow you now. ROUNDUP is a function of what follows in the next set of brackets and automatically takes precedence over the next multiplier. No problem.
Fehid	Posted - 2006.04.05 14:46:00 - [219] Sorry if this has already been posted, I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it anywhere. Based off of Tripoli's original formula (thanks!), you can calculate your starting attributes using: Base = (Actual_Value/(1+Learning_Lv * 0.02)) - Basic_Skill_Lv - Adv_Skill_Lv - Implant_Bonus Actual_Value is the non-truncated value that can be found using the formula a few posts up. The resulting values all add up to 39 for both of my characters, so hopefully it is accurate.
Anestasia Prime	Posted - 2006.04.08 03:53:00 - [220] I don't know wether to Argh!! or Sigh!! Tripoli if I got your calculations correct I would take not just one more year but more then THREE years to get to the same level if I were an Achura Monk +3P +2I. And it doesn't even matter if I go a path of Combat or non-Com., it just takes longer to train if I'm not that particular Achura. I almost wish I didn't read your highly informative posts. Since I'm new to this I don't think it would be too bad if I rolled my character again.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.10 03:52:00 - [221] If you want to reroll your character, you pretty much need to do it within a month or two. Any longer and it can take years to make any difference in your overall progress. --- Skill Collector Level 278 skills trained.
Naevius	Posted - 2006.04.10 19:48:00 - [222] The payoff calculations are complicated by the fact that the first levels of the advanced learning skills are relatively quick to train, which makes the 5th level of the basic learning skills more valuable in terms of payoff... -------------------------------------------------- The man who says he is willing to meet you halfway is usually a poor judge of distance.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.12 01:01:00 - [223] Originally by: Naevius The payoff calculations are complicated by the fact that the first levels of the advanced learning skills are relatively quick to train, which makes the 5th level of the basic learning skills more valuable in terms of payoff... Quite true. The advanced learning skills more or less make the basic ones essential to have at level 5. Of course, this still assumes you care about your training speed over the long term. Remember, despite the common notion that these are a must-train, they are not. --- Skill Collector Level 278 skills trained.
DOGNOSH	Posted - 2006.04.20 14:46:00 - [224] excellent thread tripoli so going on the above basis that lvl5 payoff becomes desireable since it allows you to learn adv. learning skills,same again when we get elite skills? and do you know anymore about elite skills? when? my guess would be elite memory skill requires standard+advanced mem skills to be at 5 but also learning to be at 5(unlike requirement for adv. learning skills) ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.21 05:06:00 - [225] Well, sadly there are no Elite Learning Skills in the newest rendition of the EVE item database, so at this point there's really no reason to believe they will ever be released. Truth be told, Elite Learning Skills are almost entirely a figment of my dreams and imagination, yet something which I am constantly trying to convince CCP to implement. The latest from the devs states that they have no intention of releasing these skills, in fact they wish they could undo releasing the advanced skills. What's done is done, I say, and as I've shown in a couple other threads, now that it is done, adding more is in fact the solution. I'll keep on plugging for them. Some day CCP will see the wisdom of my reasoning. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
DOGNOSH	Posted - 2006.04.21 08:50:00 - [226] Edited by: DOGNOSH on 21/04/2006 08:51:06 why do they regret releasing Adv. learning skills? because peeps learn stuff quicker? are they worried players will run out of skills to learn? imho they should put these skills out as a reward for long timers(which i am not)to allow them to reduce learning times for their RANK 8 and above skills they now have EVE,like all other games,is a fad that will be replaced soon with a better online space sim,so CCP will slowly rely more and more on long term players(CCP's bread and butter) and proof of that is in the fact that I play online and read up on PCs(hardware & software) yet until 2 days before i started my trial i never ever heard of EVE (hardly any sites at all mention EVE) ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.22 14:53:00 - [227] Originally by: DOGNOSH why do they regret releasing Adv. learning skills? Because they feel too many people are complaining about the "grind" of training them. I think that's utterly ridiculous, personally. It's not like you have to train them. And like I always say, the payoff for training them is quite a long time. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
Valdenous Dos	Posted - 2006.04.24 00:57:00 - [228] Edited by: Valdenous Dos on 24/04/2006 00:58:18 Final Call Ok - I like to have never figured this out from the posts here since it was spread across them all. Main Formula: SP_for_next_level / (Primary_Attribute + (Secondary_Attribute / 2)) = total_minutes
Micheal Cassio	Posted - 2006.04.24 01:36:00 - [229] So tripoli, when you say "pay off" times, do you mean that is the amount of time that i save by training these skillz up to level 5, like is that the amount of time cut off of all the other skills training time after all the learning skills are trained to level five?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.24 04:27:00 - [230] Originally by: Micheal Cassio So tripoli, when you say "pay off" times, do you mean that is the amount of time that i save by training these skillz up to level 5, like is that the amount of time cut off of all the other skills training time after all the learning skills are trained to level five? Payoff time isn't the amount of time you save, because the amount of time you save is based on how long you play. Rather, payoff time is how long it takes you to make up for the time you spent training learning skills. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
Micheal Cassio	Posted - 2006.04.24 14:24:00 - [231] so what your saying is that the "pay off" time is the amount of time it takes to train the learing skills?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.24 23:27:00 - [232] Originally by: Micheal Cassio so what your saying is that the "pay off" time is the amount of time it takes to train the learing skills? No... Payoff = (SP invested in Learning Skills) / (Average improvement in training speed) --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
AlmaLee Watson	Posted - 2006.04.26 16:04:00 - [233] Quick Question: Evegeek tells me a skill takes 21 days or so to train. Ingame, I see that it takes 23 days. I was recently podded and lost some +1 implants for all attributes. However, I replaced them. Is there some reason why the implants wouldn't have "kicked in"? I'm positive I'm entering everything into evegeek correctly. I've done it many times before. Thanks
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.27 00:43:00 - [234] First of all, you'd need to make sure you or EVEGeek are using the right attributes, that is the non-truncated ones. If you are, good. If that's not the problem, then I'd suggest refreshing your skill sheet. To do this, simply switch skills. This updates all your information in the database and may correct the time remaining. --- Skill Collector Level 279 skills trained.
Jin Jemai	Posted - 2006.04.29 01:44:00 - [235] Tripoli, I've seen the payoff times at the front of this thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me the payoff times for training the advanced learning skills from 1-4, you only show from 4-5. I suck at math so figuring out the numbers isnt an option for me :P
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.04.29 04:14:00 - [236] Edited by: Tripoli on 29/04/2006 04:14:48 You're so close to the answer you almost stepped on it. Look farther up this page at reply #161. Edit: Well, make that the previous page. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Jin Jemai	Posted - 2006.04.29 07:06:00 - [237] Tyvm tripoli :) Judging by that I think I'll just aim for 3 and leave it at that. Cheers.
Elune Ferret	Posted - 2006.05.02 07:13:00 - [238] Now I've been looking this theread throug, looking for a spreadsheet like the one made by Lachenlaud. Last one he released was a version 12.10 This spread sheet is actually very good, but quite outdated since last update was 7. juli 2005. Doesn't anyone care to lift the burden of that work? If noone else I will, would just hate to ruin this, so I'll be needing a lot of teaching as how to find the new skills, I see we have 312, not 281 skills. And I bet there's loads more to work on. If no one want's to lift the workload, then atleast help me work it out. if you'd like a copy send me an email and I'll send it to you, or go to the front pages and look for the link. [email protected]
Calynus	Posted - 2006.05.12 17:35:00 - [239] Tripoli: First off I'd like to thank you for the excellent analysis of this. Secondly, I'm wondering if your analysis on the payoff of Adv Learning 5 is taking into account if you were training all of them. The reason I'm asking is that I (stupidly) only took the default Intelligence for Gallente (base 6). With Learning 5 and Logic 4 and a +3 implant, I have 19.80 Intelligence. I have been putting off a lot of skills that have Intelligence as the primary attribute because those skills are slow to train up. If I were to train Logic 5, and focus mainly on skills that have Intelligence as a primary attribute for some time, when would the payoff be realised? I'm seriously considering sinking the 13d, 18h into it but if the payoff is a couple years out, it probably isn't worth it. You have the math floating around in your head so I figured this would take you no time at all to figure out.
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.13 01:17:00 - [240] My calculations are based on perfect circumstances with even training between all 5 attrbiutes, and the payoff times I list are based on training all 5 skills to level 5. Just training up 1 attribute (the primary one) to level 5, will pay off in 399 days. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Calynus	Posted - 2006.05.13 16:16:00 - [241] Originally by: Tripoli My calculations are based on perfect circumstances with even training between all 5 attrbiutes, and the payoff times I list are based on training all 5 skills to level 5. Just training up 1 attribute (the primary one) to level 5, will pay off in 399 days. Thanks. I'm going to take the plunge then. Certainly on the two main attributes for what I want to do with this character: Intelligence and Perception. Thanks again for your work and the amazing guide above. It was extremely helpful in prodding me to stick out the Adv Learnings to level 4. :)
Beb0p	Posted - 2006.05.15 16:24:00 - [242] What Should i do after i get my learning mastered?
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.15 23:27:00 - [243] Whatever you want to do. I'd start with basic skills like frigate, cruiser, engineering, electronics, etc. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Destoration	Posted - 2006.05.18 17:12:00 - [244] Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 29/03/2006 06:58:07 The Learning skill from level 4 to level 5: 243-406 Days (varies a lot player to player) The Advanced learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 3 Years, 235 Days, 11 Hours, 3 Minutes, and 38 Seconds The 5 (not yet released) Elite learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds Is the Elite Learning Skills a confirmed add-on? I cannot find any In-Dev/Testing/Drawingboard examples of this. But if this is fact, it would make lvl 5 tier 2 learning skills very high on my priority list. -Sorry if this was already discussed
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.19 02:17:00 - [245] No, the Elite Learning skills are a dream of mine which I shall forever pressure CCP to bring into reality. There is nothing in the database above the so-called advanced skills, and the devs have stated they have no plans for adding more learning skills, in fact they wish they could get rid of them. I'll never stop pressing to get them added. --- 280 of 312 skills trained.
Stephen HB	Posted - 2006.05.25 11:29:00 - [246] What do we want? Breakeven on Elite Learning Skills! When do we want it? 2023! ---------- Signature core stabiliser II activated. This sig is immune to mod tampering! Rawr! EVE Tracking Guide
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.05.26 01:20:00 - [247] You ever see my thread about Uber and Omega Learning Skills? Linkage --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Bruder Falke	Posted - 2006.05.31 17:01:00 - [248] I got an amarr ni kunni this means basic: int 5 per 7 cha 8 will 4 mem 6 my basic skills are: analytic mind 3 spatial awareness 3 empathy 2 iron will 3 instant recall 4 i got 2 implants int +3 mem +2 with the formula ( Base + Basic_Skill_Lv + Adv_Skill_Lv + Implant_Bonus ) * ( 1+ ( Learning_Lv * 0.02 ) ) my skills were: int 11,88 per 10,8 cha 10,8 will 7,56 mem 12,96 my charactersheet says int 11 per 12 cha 12 will 12 mem 12 where is the failure? thnx for your help
Tripoli	Posted - 2006.06.01 00:04:00 - [249] You just didn't add in all the various bonuses you get to your attributes during character creation. Your base attributes are actually: Intelligence: 5 Perception: 9 Charisma: 10 Willpower: 9 Memory: 6 And with the skills and implants you listed and Learning level 4 your attributes are currently: Intelligence: 11.88 Perception: 12.96 Charisma: 12.96 Willpower: 12.96 Memory: 12.96 --- 282 of 312 skills trained.
Bruder Falke	Posted - 2006.06.01 06:57:00 - [250] Thnx alot!!
Commander Ashik	Posted - 2006.06.04 11:47:00 - [251] Nice
Ghalmaraz	Posted - 2006.07.03 16:53:00 - [252] I just to thank you all for this info. As a new player it will certainly help me with my current player by boosting those skills and putting the other skills on hold until I catch up. Great community of people I have discovered so far in this game.
Trael Kasheer	Posted - 2006.07.19 20:33:00 - [253] Originally by: Tripoli For some reason it's alawys a little tough to explain Rank. I have been trying to find the answer to this question since I started playing all of 3 or 4 days ago. Regardless of how it factors into training, what purpose or benefit does the rank of a skill serve? When I created my character he had several skills that were listed as rank 2 level 1 due to (I'm assuming) overlaps in training in character creation. The only effect that I have noticed from this is that it takes longer to train up those as the skill levels rise. Can anyone shed any light on what benefit, if any, a skill rank does confer?
Guurzak Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.26 13:30:00 - [254] Tripoli, I'd like to propose an alternate formulation for "payoff". An earlier poster (don't recall if it was in this thread or another one) is correct that to figure a breakpoint at the point where total number of useful skillspoints is equal is to overlook the lost utility of the skills you didn't have while you were learning. However, he simply doubled payoff time to account for this, which is an even more grievous oversimplification. If we're looking to measure actual utility gained from skills, I think we have to look at the area under the skillpoint curve. Fortunately, no calculus is required since we're dealing with straight-line curves: The area under the default curve (no learning) is a simple trapezoid, while the area under the trained curve is the sum of a rectangle (while learning) plus that of a steeper trapezoid once the learning is done. How does it affect your formulas if "payoff" is calculated as parity in utility rather than parity in skillpoints?
Krav Egad Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:51:00 - [255] Originally by: Guurzak Fortunately, no calculus is required since we're dealing with straight-line curves: The area under the default curve (no learning) is a simple trapezoid, while the area under the trained curve is the sum of a rectangle (while learning) plus that of a steeper trapezoid once the learning is done. How does it affect your formulas if "payoff" is calculated as parity in utility rather than parity in skillpoints? We could use calculus if we want to It'd just simply down to the simple shapes you're describing, I think. Not sure I understand what you mean by "utility" vs parity in SP. Krav ===== Close encounter of the Hijack kind? Impossible. Unless it is as bad as I think... And if they were out to get m--
Yabram Vive	Posted - 2006.08.25 09:15:00 - [256] Ok people hope you can tell me what to do... I¦ve been playing for 6 months or so. Talking to a fellow player he told me that it would be wise for me to start a brand new caracter cause when I started playing I did not get quite well the Atrib details and make the wrong choice of race and all that. My actual caracter has 3.6 mill SP and the following atrib: Intel 11 Perc 16 Char 18 Will 9 Mem 11 Thats with : +3 memory and + 3 perc implants Skills only basic learning - all at level 4 except empathy at 2 - Learning is at 4 Now... my personal desire is to keep doing for some time LVL 4 missions as I¦m doing and some time from now maybe PVP or 0.0 rat hunting. I also intend to play for some LONG time, if real life allows it. Well, this player suggested me to start a new caracter Caldari-Achura-Custom with: intel 10 per 11 char 3 will 6 mem 9 Then just keep on playing w my actual caracter and train the new one. When it is ready ... switch. Thats what he suggested. It does not sound bad, but I only regret the waste of time, thats all. And that¦s why I¦m asking for more opinions. Well hope to hear from you guys. Thanks in advance and greetings from Argentina.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2006.08.25 11:54:00 - [257] Having just read the whole thread I can tell you the answer is in here. If you have to reroll, reroll within 2 months or it will take many years to get to the payoff. Stick to your character and don't sweat it. As for being the wrong race, you can train the other racial ship skills or just stick to the current one you have. In 6 months balance will have changed and you would be retraining again.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:37:00 - [258] Ehh Tripoli since i totally suck at this skill math crap could you please work this crap out for me?: Highest possible starting attribute is 15 in willpower for amarr, making the highest possible willpower number a 31? 31. sumthin i dont know.... so basically 31 is the absolute highest attribute any1 could have in any skill atm, and if elite skills ever came out it would be around 37 correct? then if they made +7 implants that makes 39...so could you please calculate how many sp youd be training per day with an attribute at 39
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.09.04 03:26:00 - [259] Assuming 15 really is the highest base attribute possible, maxed learning skills and a +5 implant could yeild a 33.00 attribute. Elite learning skills make that 38.50 and a +7 implant gets you to 40.70. drools --- 291 of 315 skills trained.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.05 01:06:00 - [260] Edited by: Areconus on 05/09/2006 01:13:56 Edited by: Areconus on 05/09/2006 01:08:47 Actually we were both wrong...the skill planner i was using didnt factor in the schooling w/e to add some of the attribute pts. I believe the highest possible attribute at creation is 17 in the willpower category for Amarr. 10 base +3 +4 for the category. Now, that comes to 35.2 with max skills and crap...and i suppose over 40 if elite skills ever came out...but who would want that anyways unless you wanted to try to catch Dr. Caymus after a few years right? Edit: above...u said +5 implant would yield 33, then elite skills would yield 38.5....wouldnt it actually be 33+5=38+2=40x1.1=44? 2ndEdit(lol): Also since 17 is highest base, that makes 17+7+15=39 391.11.1=47.19 highest attribute btw at this site, ,Linkage...if you choose deteis, then max it out for highest possible intel, you will see that max is 15 correct? But...strangely after you have already picked your 5 pts to spend plus your schooling, once you pick the science category it raises to 16....now why is that?
Mordru Maligante	Posted - 2006.09.05 05:16:00 - [261] Yabram, I'd roll another character if I were you. Pop a +3 mem and +3 int implant into your new character and go to work on the learning skills in the most efficient order. Pop +3 perception, charisma, and willpower in only after you begin training those attributes advanced learning skills. You'll spend about 2 months training learning skills, but afterwards, you'll train about 1.5 million sp/month roughly. In 5 months, you will surpass your current character. In the meantime, have fun and fly your current character and make the isk necessary to fund the implants and the new skill books for your alt. In about 5 months or so, you can trade off your current main or sell for ISK if that's CCP approved or keep it as an alt. just my 2 isk.
Mr Xofar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.05 12:41:00 - [262] Many months ago, I made a training calculator with VBA/Excel. I've since stopped hosting the file on that site, but I still have the file and I'm now hosting it on a Tripod.com site for free. Visit the site here. The calculator is the only file I have on there right now, and the site is quite cheesy, but hey, it's free and it took me <10 minutes to put it up. Mr Xofar's EVE Anyway, tell me if you like the calculator or if you have any problems with it. [---------------------------------------------] Incompetent
missy tricks	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:25:00 - [263] Wish i would've known about attributes before creating my character...int-19,perc-17with implant,wil-22,char-15 Guess it helps to read eve forums before creating character,since my perception is low.Hay maybe CCP could take away 2-3 from charisma and put it into perception..lol,yah i know dumb request,oh well what can you do,since i want my character combat oriented,well least my learning skills are at 2mil.
Vendetator	Posted - 2006.10.08 14:23:00 - [264] Hi, I have made a website that contains all the programs that I could find on the web and the forums about EVE. I hope this way all of the players that need them will not search numeros websites but find them all in one place, well almost all. The web site is not at 100% there is more work to be done but at this stage anyone can download programs like: -Ship quick fit -character/skill managers -eve maps / NPC security maps -miner tools -ore/mineral calculators (for miners and constructors) I hope you will find this usefool, BEST REGARDS TO THE PROGRAMERS THAT MADE THE PROGRAMS. So good luck and fly safe! Best regards! Morientez http://loger.byethost33.com/ PS: If anyone has other programs or download adresses I will be glad to upload them on the site you will find the contact detalies on the website.
Slaughteruall	Posted - 2006.10.08 19:44:00 - [265] Read my post here about his programs. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=406387&page=1
Zoxia Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.10.24 09:04:00 - [266] Edited by: Zoxia on 25/10/2006 11:53:19 nm
The Fates Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.04 22:43:00 - [267] It has been some time since I approached the subject of learning skills. At the present time I have Learning V and all advanced Learning skills to 4, including charisma. Some time ago, in a different thread that I don't care to revive, Tripoli pointed out to me that the time you save training is non-linear. I had asked him about the diminishing returns of increasing attributes, and while his calculations here in this thread are correct based on skill points per minute, which is a linear progression, and can be determined fairly easily and accurately with the information provided, I was at the time interested in time... and now that my character has progressed to this level I am further interested in the actual time saved rather than the increase in skill points per minute. Mainly because, its the time to train a skill that has more effect on the "omg this is taking so long" problem. So, while I am not going to explain it completely, for lack of patience with the issue after playing with the numbers for hours on my own character, I will say that I have a method I would like examined for accuracy. I have of course done this for my own character, and welcome you to do the same for yours. I would like to know if there is an error in the calculation somewhere... I'm sure if I leave this here for a while that someone (cough) will look at it to see if it is accurate. Minutes spent training learning skill 1 / sp/m = time to train 1 sp Do this twice, once before and after After - Before = minutes saved per sp trained Minutes spent / Minutes saved per sp trained = sp to train to regain minutes spent sp to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = minutes to regain minutes spent Just for an example... Clarity IV -> V 632,235 Skill Points needed. Current sp/m 39.05 sp/m after: 40.15 Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 16190.396927016645326504481434059 Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.025608194622279129321382842509603 Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.024691358024691358024691358024691 Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000916836597587799 Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 17658977.5862063 SP needed to regain minutes spent SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 436024.13793102 Which is about 43.25 Weeks of Training Perception as Primary, Willpower as Secondary to break even in TIME. Is this correct or flawed...? Thanks in advance for any answers.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:27:00 - [268] My head's hurting a little too much to find the flaw in your math right now, but allow me to vastly simplify the calculation for you. Payoff time in minutes equals the number of SP invested divided by the improvement in your skill training speed per minute. So, if you invest 632,235 SP in training an Advanced Learning skill from 4 to 5 (and you have Learning 5), your training speed (assuming it was the primary attribute) goes up by exactly 1.1 SP/min. Therefore, it will take you 635,235 / 1.1 minutes (574,759.09 minutes or 399 days 3 hours 19 minutes and 5 seconds) to payoff the training. --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
The Fates Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:49:00 - [269] So, if you invest 632,235 SP in training an Advanced Learning skill from 4 to 5 (and you have Learning 5), your training speed (assuming it was the primary attribute) goes up by exactly 1.1 SP/min. Therefore, it will take you 635,235 / 1.1 minutes (574,759.09 minutes or 399 days 3 hours 19 minutes and 5 seconds) to payoff the training. ... Right... to get your skill points back would take you 635,235 / 1.1 = 577,486.36 Minutes of training that to get your skill points back. I agree with this and have for some time. Unfortunately how long it takes to get my skill points back isn't the question. The question is, how long does it take to get my time back? For example, again, if I spend 16190.39 minutes to train clarity IV to V, how long will it be until I save 16190.39 minutes? I currently believe with my attributes that would be 43.25 weeks, even though it would take longer to get the acutal points back that were spent training clarity from IV to V. Another example... Clarity IV -> V 632,235 Skill Points needed. Current sp/m 39.05 sp/m after: 40.15 Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 16190.396927016645326504481434059 Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.025608194622279129321382842509603 Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.024691358024691358024691358024691 Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000916836597587799 Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 17658977.5862063 SP NEEDED SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 436024.13793102 436024.13793102 / 60 / 24 / 7 = 43.25 (approximate) weeks. BUT lets say that my attributes are different. Clarity IV -> V 632,235 Skill Points needed. Current sp/m 37.05 sp/m after: 38.15 Minutes to Train (Minutes Spent) : 17064.372469635627530364372469636 Current Time to Train 1 sp (minutes) : 0.026990553306342780026990553306343 Time to train 1 sp with Level V (minutes) : 0.026212319790301441677588466579292 Minutes Saved per sp trained : 0.000778233516041338349402086727 Minutes Spent / Minutes Saved per sp : 21927059.318181818181818181819598 SP NEEDED SP to train to regain minutes spent / sp/m = 574759.09090909 574759.09090909 / 60 / 24 / 7 = 57.019 (approximate) weeks. What is interesting to me is that it would take longer to save as much time with a lower sp/m rate, when there is, of course, a diminishing return on the reduction of time to train a skill as attributes, and therefore, as sp/m rises. Brain exercise, indeed... Again I still must ask if this is correct. Time allowing I will attempt to prove it, but even proof in isolation needs to be verified. If its wrong, I'd like to know where it went wrong and what the correct answer is.
Valerek Gallente PhoenixCorp	Posted - 2006.11.09 20:00:00 - [270] Interesting guide. I think peeps are getting way into the skill points calculations biz. While I respect what Tripoli has done, I think that peeps should look into what paths they want for their characters. I started Eve off not knowing a whole lot about Learning skills. I did know that the quickest route to start making ISK (and therefore be able to buy MORE skillbooks) was to mine...and mine and mine. I wanted to better my character and looked at what the skills provided, what they did, how they complimented each other, how they enhanced my ship, etc. I think I started to run Learning skills right when I hit Mining V. Then I got concerned that I should do the Learning skills first... Anyways. I am currently sitting on 10mill skillpoints off 111 skills. That's after a 5 month hiatus from Eve. I average 1.3mill sp per month (ballpark figures) and I am a solid player in skill sets. My word of advice to noobs: pick a path, then get the skills that support that path. Don't worry about "payoff" and all that other baloney. Chances are you won't be playing Eve 399 days in the future. Then again, you might. Enjoy the game.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.10 05:53:00 - [271] Edited by: Tripoli on 10/11/2006 05:56:04 Originally by: The Fates Edit: I'm sure you realize that this would have an effect on the "payoff time" for advanced learning skills... if this is correct... Well, it was a challenge, but I finally figured out where your error lies: You miscalculated the training speed per minute that you'd have after training the primary attribute's learning skill to level 5. In your first example, the time it takes to train 1 SP should be 0.0249066 minutes. Use this figure, and sure enough you get 399 days 3 hours 19 minutes and 5 seconds. To match your initial learning speed I used 26.4 as primary and 25.3 as secondary. After training the primary attribute's skill to level 5, that becomes 27.5 and 25.3. To match the figure you came up with, I'd have to use 27.5 (1.1 higher, as it should be) and 26.0 (shouldn't have changed). --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
The Fates Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:21:00 - [272] Thanks Trip, you're right. 63223540.041.10.025000000 0.0243309000.00066910015,805.88 23622598.64 574759.0909 57.01975108 63223541.142.20.024330900 0.0236966820.00063421815,382.85 24254833.64 574759.0909 57.01975108 63223542.243.30.023696682 0.0230946880.00060199414,981.87 24887068.64 574759.0909 57.01975108 63223543.344.40.023094688 0.0225225230.00057216614,601.27 25519303.64 574759.0909 57.01975108 You might can make sense of those numbers :) As sp/m rises, the learning payoff is the same, 57.01975108 weeks. The amount of SP you have by the time its paid off rises with SP/M. 402560006400.000000106.66666674.4444444440.1139601140.005997901 412560006243.902439104.06504074.3360433600.1084010840.005559030 422560006095.238095101.58730164.2328042330.1032391280.005161956 432560005953.48837299.224806204.1343669250.0984373080.004801820 442560005818.18181896.969696974.0404040400.0939628850.004474423 And, as you pointed out, time to train a rank to V shows a diminishing return as sp/m rises. 4.4 days at 40sp/m, to 4.04 days at 44 sp/m, with a diminishing return. Forgive me while I ramble a bit... but there is another question at the end. The part I never could accept was that both a diminishing return on time saved as sp/m rises AND that the payoff time for learning skills was the same regardless of sp/m were both true. I was thinking one or the other of those things had to be false. Both are completely true. The process above will show you with a given sp/m how many SP you need to train to be able to break even or save time, which is another piece of information I was wanting. It's pretty easy (well, lol) to break down what you want to train into SP and look at the payoff number. It's also rather simple to place into a spreadsheet... which would have avoided the error in the first place, but then I'd still have had to ask to be sure. The number of SP needed to break even or save time is of course interesting if you know what you want to train... which from earlier discussions months ago was decided to be a pretty important factor on choosing attributes in the first place, and after you play for a while and think to yourself, hey, I might be here in a year, I've already been here seven months as it is, you start wondering if its really such a bad idea to invest now in what will pay off in 57 weeks.... This game takes an extraordinary amount of patience, lol. I feel like I might should have paid more attention to this kind of thing earlier. It's hard to grasp, I guess, when you start this game that your decisions early on can have a pretty big effect on things years down the line, if you play for that long. Ok. Done rambling, lol. Onto the next question. If, I train a pair of learning skills, then whats the payoff time? Obviously if you're willing to invest in the primary you'd consider the secondary, right? 126447040.0041.650.0250000000.0240096040.00099039631,611.7531918288.18766345.454576.02633478 126447041.6543.300.0240096040.0230946880.00091491630,359.4233182758.18766345.454576.02633478 126447043.3044.950.0230946880.0222469410.00084774729,202.5434447228.18766345.454576.02633478 126447044.9546.600.0222469410.0214592270.00078771428,130.5935711698.18766345.454576.02633478 Given learning V and a 1.65 sp/m increase for pair training, consistent as sp/m rises at 76.02 weeks. Is that correct? I realize thats not 100% accurate, since you're likely saving a bit more time training the second learning skill, but its close enough. If that is correct I'm very surprised by the answer, I had thought it would be much longer, given you need to train twice the number of sp for less gain, but it does seem right, looking at the numbers. Thanks for taking the time to work it out, Trip. And btw, I'll take it as fact now that the advanced payoff for all five is 3 Years, 235 Days or so. ;D
The Fates Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.11 10:06:00 - [273] Interesting guide. I think peeps are getting way into the skill points calculations biz. While I respect what Tripoli has done, I think that peeps should look into what paths they want for their characters. I started Eve off not knowing a whole lot about Learning skills. /stuff about mining/ Then I got concerned that I should do the Learning skills first... Anyways. I am currently sitting on 10mill skillpoints off 111 skills. That's after a 5 month hiatus from Eve. I average 1.3mill sp per month (ballpark figures) and I am a solid player in skill sets. My word of advice to noobs: pick a path, then get the skills that support that path. Don't worry about "payoff" and all that other baloney. Chances are you won't be playing Eve 399 days in the future. Then again, you might. Enjoy the game. ^^^^^^ Good advice to noobs. In my case, I'm looking at the specific payoff for the next year to year and a half of training. If I ever train all the advanced learning skills to V it will probably be a pair at a time, and I just don't see that as likely. What I do see as very likely, tho, is that over the next year to year and a half I could train nothing but one pair of attributes... and benefit from training the relevant learning skills to save some time doing it, or at least break even and have the skills trained "for free" so to speak. Also the same calculation could be used to judge whether or not to train an additional level of cybernetics... Part of enjoying the game to me is getting a return on any investment I make in skill points and learning skills are definately not an exception. Thats my 2 isk. You should enjoy the game... everyone does that in different ways. Tripoli 4tw ;D
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.12 06:20:00 - [274] Your numbers are accurate; however, taking into consideration payoff time for multiple levels yields results that, while accurate, are misleading. Yes, the payoff for training all learning skills from 0 to 5 is less than a year. But what matters is that just that last level of the 5 advanced learning skills takes over three years by itself. --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
The Fates Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.12 08:13:00 - [275] I suppose there's more than one way to look at it, like most things. I really appreciate your help in getting this straight. Given the method that works now, some results... These include the 2% learning skill, trained 1 level at a time in basic. I know thats not the most realistic approach but there's enough info here to figure that out on your own if anyone wants to do that. All Basic I - less than a day All Basic II - less than two days All Basic III - one week All Basic IV - one month All Basic V - 4.3 months All Advanced I - 3.6 months All Advanced II - 3.1 months All Advanced III - 2.9 months All Advanced IV - 3.4 months All Advanced V - 7.5 months Times are approximate, of course. There's a big delay in payoff when you train to advanced V, for sure. Looking at it from this point of view my learning training has already paid for itself some time ago. If I take each one in isolation and add the results together I get a five year payoff for all the learning skills maxed out. Pretty big difference in how you look at it. If I figure each one seperately, the training that I've already done wont pay off until 1.3 years, which means I've still got some time to wait before its really paid off to train those skills... and I really would not want to wait another 3.6 years for advanced V to really pay off. So, which answer is really correct? Are both of them correct, it just depends on your view of the situation? If it really does take 5 years to pay them off even you have some waiting to do to see any benefits... I promise, one day I'll run out of questions, it just isnt today lol :) I figure if anyone can really answer this question its you or someone you know. A clear well explained answer would be nice to have... I can't help but feel like I'm missing something here with two different answers that both make sense, depending on the point of view.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.12 16:48:00 - [276] Edited by: Tripoli on 12/11/2006 16:48:36 Now you've got it. --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
The Fates Perkone	Posted - 2006.11.12 21:22:00 - [277] You know.. I did notice in doing all this that, regardless of how far you trained learning (except the very last level of advanced) vs how long someone else trained learning, they could still be ahead or behind you in useful points because of the variation in base attributes and choices in skill training. Careful planning and strict adherence to the plan when it comes to training a character for one purpose or another seems to make all the difference. Just another little tidbit, the cybernetics skill payoff is pretty good, until the last level of it, and even thats not too bad, if you can stomach the price of +5 implants... getting to use +4's pays off in about 7 weeks from the +3 guy, and getting to use +5's pays off in about 38 weeks from the +4 guy. Difference between +5's and +3's seems to be about 22 weeks. Only matters if you stay in those implants, tho. Thanks for the help. Time to go learn (lol) some other stuff about eve.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2006.11.26 07:32:00 - [278] With the Revelations expansion, and the change to the advanced learning skill prerequisites, the payoff time for training the basic learning skills to level 5 is once again relevant information for us. I have updated my original post with the figure. See page 1. --- 295 of 315 skills trained.
Dredx	Posted - 2007.01.15 10:28:00 - [279] y have a question here, is the lerning 2% bonus change dinamic when u increse your atributes after u finish training the lerning skil? or the 2% bonus is put and calculated when u finish the lerning skill whit your curent attributes? if this is not dinamic changed the lerning wood give a beter bonus if is traind after the artribute skils so if u have from start 11 * 2% (lerning lvl 1) = 11.22 then u train 5+4 = 20.22 then u train lerning to lvl 5 will be 22.22 * 8% = 23.99 and if u have from start 11 * 10% (lets say u make lerning lvl 5 first ) = 12.1 +5+4 = 21.1 (5+4 means lvl 5 basic skill and lvl 4 advanced skill) so this means the first caracter will have 23.99 points and the second 21.1 if sombody know for sure haw is calculated plz anser. cuz y so lots of characters whit more atributes then others whit same lernings and implants.
Dredx	Posted - 2007.01.15 11:49:00 - [280] ups y mest up the numbers the first is 20.22* 8% = 21.87 ( y dont know whay y put 22.22 ) the second is corect but still the first has 21.87 and the second 21.10 not so big difrence.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.16 04:15:00 - [281] It does not matter when, or in what order, you train any of the learning skills. It will have no effect on the end result. No matter what, the "Learning" skill is always figured in last when calculating your attributes. Take the sum of your base attribute, points based on related skills and implants, and then multiply the result by the Learning modifier. (Base Attribute + Basic Skill Level + Advanced Skill Level + Implant Bonus) * ( 1 + ( Learning Level * 0.02 ) ) --- 320 of 341 skills trained.
Dredx	Posted - 2007.01.16 08:57:00 - [282] ok but i dont undestand whay some characters have more atributes in total whit same skils (basic lvl 5 all, advanced lvl 4 all, implants +4 ) then others
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.17 05:33:00 - [283] Simply because they started with a different base attribute number. --- 320 of 341 skills trained.
Mario Bula	Posted - 2007.01.23 08:45:00 - [284] Nice but... ( SP_Needed - Current_SP ) / ( Pri_Attrib + ( Sec_Attrib / 2 ) ) Where is the skill time multiplier in this? Skills take longer to train then others at the same level.
Borysa	Posted - 2007.01.24 14:58:00 - [285] Regarding the following, dunno what anyone else has said this (haven't read every post in detail), but isn't multiplying the your attributes by (1+0.02xLearning) exactly the same as multiplying the number of skill points you generate per minute by (1+0.02xLearning) which is exactly the same as dividing the total learning time by (1+0.02xLearning)? Originally by: Lord Wimbishi Edited by: Lord Wimbishi on 25/05/2004 09:23:31 Edited by: Lord Wimbishi on 25/05/2004 09:05:48 Tripoli you calculations maybe exact but not worked out in the function of points on EVE you think they do.. the learning skill does NOT multiply your attribute points. it shortens the training skill points you NEED to train in order to get to the next level. I wish it would get fixed in game as the skill itself says 2% reduction in skill training time not enhancing the attribute points you currently have. Either calculation works I suppose as the attribute points don't have fractions or thereof as any other modifier in the game has. Reposted from another sticky. This is an exact formula I have came up with to resolve this issue. (P + I)+ Lsk) + (S + I) + Lsk / 2) = T, (Sktp / T) - Lsk%) / 60)/ 24)= Ts P rimary attrib I mplants Lsk Learning attribute skill S econdary attrib T otal Sktp Skill total points needed to train Sot Sum of Total Lsk% Learning skill percentage and / is the divided sign. make sure you do the math between the ( ) first before continuing on in the chain. Ok this is how it works Take add your implant bonuses to your attribute scores then add your learning skill lvls. Then use your primary score as base, then halve your secondary attribute value and then add it to the primary to reach a total skill points per minute. example (10 int + 3)+ 5) + ( 8 mem + 3) +5 / 2) = 26 Now to figure how the rest comes in you must realise that those 'added' points are not really there and is a 'repensentation' of them not an actual value. take the total points that you need to train. To find that, you need to take the total points and minus it from the points you already have attained. dividing this sum by your training modifier which was derived from your attributes; will net you the amount of minutes it would take to train. Example: 45255 of 256000 to get to lvl 5. subtract 45225 from 256000 you get 210745. divide 210745 by 26. you get 8105.57 and on. You would take this sum finally subtracting your learning skill say like 10%. to get the true amount of skill point time you need to get that next level. 8105.57 subtract 10% for learning lvl5 = 7295.013 minutes to next level. To find the exact time needed you would begin to divide it by 60; representing 60 mins in the hour, and then by 24 representing the hours in a day to reach the total days and such of how long it will take. 7295.013 / 60 = 121.58 hours which the 58 would = around 32-34 minutes. and 121.58 / 24 = 5.065 days which would correspond to 5 days and 35 min or there of. the skill in question is an electronic skill with a rank of 1. To really simplify most of the issues with out busting a brain cell look up on www.eve-i.com for the skill training calulater. the biggest thing to remember when using it is to add only your raw begining attributes with your added implants. DO NOT add your learning skill lvl in as it already does this on the below areas of that chart. Only put the starting attribute points and your implant bonuses there leaving the rest up to the chart. You will find it is 100% accurate
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.01.25 04:22:00 - [286] Originally by: Borysa Regarding the following, dunno what anyone else has said this (haven't read every post in detail), but isn't multiplying the your attributes by (1+0.02xLearning) exactly the same as multiplying the number of skill points you generate per minute by (1+0.02xLearning) which is exactly the same as dividing the total learning time by (1+0.02xLearning)? These are quite different. Let's say your base attributes were all 10 and that you decided to train Learning from level 0 to level 5, affecting a 10% increase in all your attributes... Training speed with 10/10 attributes: 15 SP/min Training speed with 11/11 attributes: 16.5 SP/min Let's say you're training a skill with these attributes from 0 to 256,000 SP. 256,000 / 15 = 17,066.67 minutes 256,000 / 16.5 = 15,515.15 minutes That's a 9.09% decrease in your training time and a 9.09% increase in your training speed. A full 10% decrease in training time would be 17,066.67 * 0.9 = 15,360.00 minutes. --- 321 of 341 skills trained.
Judge Ment Battlestars Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.06 02:37:00 - [287] Oh my Skills = Time/Loop (pay ccp) Did I tell you im getting old?
Beren Kahn	Posted - 2007.02.13 14:48:00 - [288] Effect of the Learning skill on training times: Level 1: 1.96% decrease Level 2: additional 1.89% decrease, total decrease of 3.85% compared to level 0 Level 3: additional 1.81% decrease, total decrease of 5.66% compared to level 0 Level 4: additional 1.75% decrease, total decrease of 7.41% compared to level 0 Level 5: additional 1.68% decrease, total decrease of 9.09% compared to level 0 This is true regardless of what your attributes are. While the in game description that the Learning skill decreases training times by 2% per level is vaguely correct, one must wonder why they didn't just state the actual effect instead.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.02.14 00:51:00 - [289] Originally by: Beren Kahn While the in game description that the Learning skill decreases training times by 2% per level is vaguely correct, one must wonder why they didn't just state the actual effect instead. Actually, they fixed that for me... Learning: 2% bonus per level to all attributes resulting in a overall faster skill training time. --- 323 of 341 skills trained.
dentonan	Posted - 2007.02.14 17:12:00 - [290] hi not wanting to sound like im flaming but why would someone spend all that time training the advanced skills to the higher levels? i am currentley training my basics becouse i didnt know the importance of having some learning skills, but i have the problem is i want to pvp in eve and atm i dont have all the usefull skills to be sucsessfull at pvp... i undestand that you save a hell of a lot of time in the long run but why spend the months of training your learning skills that high when its going to take you years from what i have read to gain that time spent back in usefull skills.
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.02.15 02:42:00 - [291] That's a question that people ask frequently, dentonan. Your point is a valid one, in that it's not worth taking the time to train all the learning skills up if you're not having fun while doing it. Yes, doing all the learning skills right away is the most efficient thing to do. For me, I enjoyed that because I liked seeing how much time it would knock off my skills, plus I knew how long the payoff would be and that I'd be around long enough to make it worthwhile. But for most people, they consider this process to be extremely boring, which is why I always say that people should do what's fun to them. One thing a lot of people recommend is training learning skills overnight, and other skills during the day. Just do whatever it takes so that you're having fun, but still not flat-out wasting time by not having half-way decent learning skills. One thing that does bother me a little is how often people think I'm preaching that they HAVE to train the learning skills right away, or else their time in EVE is totally wasted. To my recollection, I have never taken that stance. In my skill guide I state, "People who are very interested in training the various learning skills often ask what order it would be best to train the skills," and then I proceed to detail the best plan for doing so. --- 323 of 341 skills trained.
SilentSta1ker	Posted - 2007.03.19 12:23:00 - [292] Ok i hate math and never liked it in school so i neverp ayed attention. Your confusing the hell outa me with all this )9 ( +4)9 nonsense. can you make it in simpler terms please...
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.03.20 00:34:00 - [293] Originally by: SilentSta1ker Ok i hate math and never liked it in school so i neverp ayed attention. Your confusing the hell outa me with all this )9 ( +4)9 nonsense. can you make it in simpler terms please... Sure. Higher attributes means you train skills faster. Attributes can be made higher by training the 11 learning skills and by adding implants. --- 325 of 341 skills trained.
Pax Deora	Posted - 2007.04.05 15:46:00 - [294] i originally posted this on the skill guide(dont know why i put it there) but i think there might be a better response to it here. Anyways, this is how i figured out my starting atributes... what do you think? --copied from other post-- I started a pvp char on a second account and although i do follow the optimal learning plan (with +3 implants) I came up with a different method to determine my optimal starting attributes. Which I think worked out well, although itÆs a bit time consuming, and you need to know what you want to go for. My goal is to fly an Amarr fleet command ship specializing in armored warfare links with all relevant skills at the appropriate levels. I used quickfit to design a setup that used named/t2 mods and set any needed skills at the level at which i got the desired effect (such as all the support skills such as eng/elec, cap skills, tank skills, weap skills, etc all at level 4-5). note: this doesn't include learning skills since you could have your starting attributes set up any way you like, and getting all basic to 5 and all advanced learning to 4 will happen anyways, for me at least. I listed each skill out on a piece of paper, with the primary and secondary attributes next to it, then used the skill calculator on eve[geek] to calculate the total amount of skill points needed to get to that level (i.e. Cruiser lvl5 will take 1,280,000 skill points because its a rank 5 skill, engineering will take 256,000 to get to level 5 because its a rank 1 skill). Since all skills have primary attributes and secondary attributes, and secondary attributes contribute half as much as primary, i used the ratio of (2/3) for primary attributes, and (1/3) for secondary. For example, (race) Frigate has primary of Perception, and secondary of willpower, so per contributes twice as much as wil [2 * (1/3) = (2/3)]. I'm sure you could use other ratios but this one makes it into a decimal that will be useful later on. So here is the more time consuming part. Add up all the skill point totals (basically your the amount of skill points you'll have when you reach your goal). That total is what you will use to find the % of your total skills use any given attribute. For primary attributes, add up all the skill points from skills that take that primary attribute, multiply it by (2/3), then divide it by the total amount of skill points you have planned. You will get the % that attribute contributes to your skill point total. Repeat for all attributes. For secondary attributes, the calculation is the same, except you use (1/3) instead of (2/3) since secondary attributes only contribute half as much as primary ones. At this point you will have two lists of 5 numbers each, with each number corresponding to an attribute. Then simply add the numbers of the corresponding attributes, as in the number from primary Int plus the number from secondary Int. (Note if you add up all attributes they should equal 1) Now each character has a starting total of 39 attribute points to allocate, after taking into account the base attributes, the 5 you chose, and the 4 from the ancestry. Your optimal starting amount of any given attribute is 39 * (the sum of the attributes primary and secondary numbers). For example if you had a primary int ratio of .0833, and a secondary int ratio of .0417, the sum is .1250, therefore your starting int should be (39 * .1250) which equals 4.8750, after rounding, you would go for a starting int of 5. Multiply 39 by all the final attribute ratios and you got your optimal starting attributes.
Pax Deora	Posted - 2007.04.05 15:47:00 - [295] Edited by: Pax Deora on 05/04/2007 15:46:38 An Example (albeit a small one, 4 skills ftw) P û Perception, W û Willpower, C û Charisma, I û Intelligence, M - Memory Desired Skill Set: Pri û Sec û Skill points û Skill P - W - 1,280,000 - (race) Cruiser ( rank 5) to level 5 C - W - 256,000 - Leadership ( rank 1) to level 5 M - I - 256,000 - Engineering ( rank 1) to level 5 I - M - 45,255 - Science ( rank 1) to level 4 Total Skill points: 1,837,255 Priamry Ratios { [(2/3) * (total spÆs with attrib as primary )] / total spÆs } P : .4645 = (2/3 * 1280000) / 1837255 C : .0929 = (2/3 * 256000) / 1837255 M : .0929 = (2/3 * 256000) / 1837255 I : .0164 = (2/3 * 45255) / 1837255 W : 0 = (2/3 * 0) / 1837255 Secondary Ratios { [(1/3) * (total spÆs with attrib as secondary )] / total spÆs } P : 0 = (1/3 * 0) / 1837255 C : 0 = (1/3 * 0) / 1837255 M : .0082 = (1/3 * 45255) / 1837255 I : .0464 = (1/3 * 256000) / 1837255 W : .2787 = (1/3 * [1280000+256000]) / 1837255 Final Ratios ( primary + secondary) P : .4645 = .4645 + 0 C : .0929 = .0929 + 0 M : .1011 = .0929 + .0082 I : .0628 = .0164 + .0464 W : .2787 = 0 + .2787 Theoretical optimal [39 * (final ratio of attrib)] P: 18.1155 = 39 * .4645 C: 3.6231 = 39 * .0929 M: 3.9429 = 39 * .1011 I: 2.4492 = 39 * .0628 W: 10.8693 = 39 * .2787 So after rounding (up if greater than .5, down if lower than .5) Actual Optimal Starting attributes Perception is 18 Charisma is 4 Memory is 4 Intelligence is 2 Willpower is 11 Of course you could never get JUST those skills since youÆd need to factor in the perquisites (like spaceship command and (race) frigate to the required levels), but this is just a simple example to show how I did the math. Only thing left to do is find a race/ancestry combination you can get the desired starting attributes with. The example did I donÆt think is actually possible because you cant start with perception of 18, but you get the idea of how it would work. My command ship template was in upwards of +20mil skill points in its entirety so I got a more reasonable spread of attributes (notice the rank 5 cruiser skill put more weight on the starting attributes then the lower rank other skills) Well that was my method of starting attribute determination; feel free to point out any possible errors I may have overlooked. Also, implants and the learning skills, as long as you have all the skills at the same level and get all the same +x implants, they can be factored out so you donÆt have to include them. Except maybe getting one stat a lot higher then the rest where the learning skill would add significantly more to that attribute then the rest of them, but that generally isnÆt a problem.
Grimlius Barotar	Posted - 2007.04.14 19:02:00 - [296] Thanks ever so much for this, it's really helped me plan out an optimal skill training path
Duger Schloutski	Posted - 2007.07.04 20:36:00 - [297] thanks , very helpful
Teckyreid	Posted - 2007.07.28 22:21:00 - [298] Hi everyone, its likely a silly idea, but i'm attempting to make the eve calc in VB 6 simply cos i've only got a basic understanding of C (not C++ or PHP etc) and i'm soo bored these days, but i am having difficulty when it comes to the working out of the time, do you know a formula that doesn't use roundup/rounddown/floor etc AND can be used by the VB compiler?
macktruck6666	Posted - 2007.09.11 20:49:00 - [299] Ok. Does anyone know where there is a list of primary and secondary modifiers for each skill. I really don't want to type them all into the program I'm writing, it would be allot easier if I could just parse a file.
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:37:00 - [300] I've just come across this great thread and wanted to add my thanks to all the people who've spent a lot of effort working this information out. I've got 31.90 Intelligence. Although the game truncates that for display purposes, it does take the 0.90 into account when calculating training time doesn't it? As an aside, my char is pretty imbalanced with that high intelligence (includes +5 implant) and fairly low everything else across the board. What's the highest stat anyone has on their char?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.10.03 01:32:00 - [301] Originally by: Fink Angel I've got 31.90 Intelligence. Although the game truncates that for display purposes, it does take the 0.90 into account when calculating training time doesn't it? Yep. --- 341 of 351 skills trained.
Iksobarg	Posted - 2007.10.06 06:10:00 - [302] Edited by: Iksobarg on 06/10/2007 06:11:57 The lower left hand corner of the EveMon window shows a number indicating X SP/Hr Mine is currently at 1089. I started a few months after a guy who recently shared his current SP total and I have to first say I play the game for fun, first, however since I found that out I'm feeling now like I'm chasing the bus :( My attribs according to EveMon Char: 6.6 Int: 18.7 Percep 17.6 Mem 22.0 Will 11 Learning Skills Anal: 5, Clarity: 3, Eidetic 5, Instant Rec 5, Iron Will 4, Learning 5, Logic 5, Spatial 4 - just realized I need FOcus and empathy ones though I'm not crazy about charisma skills. -I'm thinking get Iron Will and Spatial each to 5. My question: what is the best way to improve my 1089 SP/Hr rate? (I think it can only be implants) ANyone care to share their SP/Hr Rate? (me is jealous of some of you guys :)
Teckyreid	Posted - 2007.10.08 13:21:00 - [303] ok, i gave up and asked a friend to code it for me in C++, but were having difficulty on the end bit when you figure out the times, it seems to be coming up 30 secs short, how do you calculate the total time from minutes to D:H:M:S?
benm2012	Posted - 2007.11.25 03:51:00 - [304] So, in the end, it is absolutely worth it to train all the learning skills to lvl 5? got kinda confused with the days and years and just lost what was going on....
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:58:00 - [305] If you want to play for more than 3 years, sure, it's worth it. Otherwise, it's probably not. --- 343 of 351 skills trained.
Katsuta	Posted - 2008.01.24 02:54:00 - [306] Edited by: Katsuta on 24/01/2008 02:55:31 Hello, I am newly joined to EVE and do not know what my base stats are, nor do I completely understand the formula for finding them. My displayed attributes are Int: 20, Per:14, Cha:6, Will:10, and Mem:12. I have learning attribute bonuses as follows, 3/4/2/3/3, and implant bonuses at 2/1/1/1/1. Thank you very much for your help. Edit: Hm, I had found this topic from google, I hope these people still exist...
Tripoli XenTech Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.01.25 02:11:00 - [307] Of course I still exist. You neglected to mention what level you have the "Learning" skill up to, though I'm almost certain it is at level 4. Based on that, your starting attributes were 14-8-3-6-8. You're current non-truncated attributes are 20.52-14.04-6.48-10.80-12.96. --- 352 of 359 skills trained.
Vicrry	Posted - 2008.01.31 23:17:00 - [308] I'm just doing some Excel practice and one thing I've noticed is that at levels 2 and 4 of a rank 1 skill is there's a bit of change leftover with the exponential formula for required SP. Which way are these rounded, if they even are? This is what I've come up with so far. A much simpler formula for the skill point requirement but it requires too many decimal points to get a accurate approximation.
Supreme Cougar Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.02.28 15:48:00 - [309] Very helpful. Thank you.
Tripoli XenTech Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.03.02 02:25:00 - [310] Originally by: Vicrry Edited by: Vicrry on 31/01/2008 23:27:25 I'm just doing some Excel practice and one thing I've noticed is that at levels 2 and 4 of a rank 1 skill is there's a bit of change leftover with the exponential formula for required SP. Which way are these rounded, if they even are? This is what I've come up with so far. A much simpler formula for the skill point requirement but it requires too many decimal points to get a accurate approximation. EDIT: 10 decimals are needed in the formula to get within 5 decimals of the exact formula. The result of the formula is always rounded up to the next integer. --- 353 of 359 skills trained.
kayentelva Minmatar Remedy Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.26 19:17:00 - [311] this is still an important topic and I want to thank Tripoli and the others for their hard work. some of us are seriously math challenged and this info is invaluable.
Dalt Donogalt	Posted - 2008.10.11 17:21:00 - [312] Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Vicrry Edited by: Vicrry on 31/01/2008 23:27:25 I'm just doing some Excel practice and one thing I've noticed is that at levels 2 and 4 of a rank 1 skill is there's a bit of change leftover with the exponential formula for required SP. Which way are these rounded, if they even are? This is what I've come up with so far. A much simpler formula for the skill point requirement but it requires too many decimal points to get a accurate approximation. EDIT: 10 decimals are needed in the formula to get within 5 decimals of the exact formula. The result of the formula is always rounded up to the next integer. Trip, please forgive me if my question is stupid, but mathematics are beyond my horizons... I plan a new character and since (if I understood corectly): - learning 5 gives 1 point for every 10 points - EVE truncates every number Then it's better to have as many Attributes at exactly 10 as we can, at the char creation? For instance: Let's say, for Amarr, it's better to start with CHA4 INT8 MEM10 PR7 Will 10 (which means Amarr-Amarr-Whealthy Commoners) instead of CHA3 INT9 MEM6 PR7 WILL14 (Amarr-Amarr-Relig. Reclaimers)? Since really earn 1 free point for every 10 attributes levels, is it not a waste to increase at 11 or 12 at the char creation? Thank you.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.11 19:24:00 - [313] Originally by: Dalt Donogalt Originally by: Tripoli Originally by: Vicrry Edited by: Vicrry on 31/01/2008 23:27:25 I'm just doing some Excel practice and one thing I've noticed is that at levels 2 and 4 of a rank 1 skill is there's a bit of change leftover with the exponential formula for required SP. Which way are these rounded, if they even are? This is what I've come up with so far. A much simpler formula for the skill point requirement but it requires too many decimal points to get a accurate approximation. EDIT: 10 decimals are needed in the formula to get within 5 decimals of the exact formula. The result of the formula is always rounded up to the next integer. Trip, please forgive me if my question is stupid, but mathematics are beyond my horizons... I plan a new character and since (if I understood corectly): - learning 5 gives 1 point for every 10 points - EVE truncates every number Then it's better to have as many Attributes at exactly 10 as we can, at the char creation? For instance: Let's say, for Amarr, it's better to start with CHA4 INT8 MEM10 PR7 Will 10 (which means Amarr-Amarr-Whealthy Commoners) instead of CHA3 INT9 MEM6 PR7 WILL14 (Amarr-Amarr-Relig. Reclaimers)? Since really earn 1 free point for every 10 attributes levels, is it not a waste to increase at 11 or 12 at the char creation? Thank you. Incorrect. The fractions are not displayed in your character sheet but they are definitely counted when determining skill times,
Lya SOS	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:40:00 - [314] Originally by: Tripoli Edited by: Tripoli on 26/11/2006 07:39:58 These ôpayoffö times are defined as the total skill points invested divided by the average improvement in training speed. Are the "payoff" times the amount of time that you save by training to level 5 from 4 ?
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2008.11.23 17:47:00 - [315] Yes. --- All 360 skills trained.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.12.05 00:29:00 - [316] Hey all, Very interesting read all of this, and I thank Tripoli and the others for taking the time to discuss this. I had read this thread before, and took some lessons from it, and so I told my newbie friend today that he should try to make a balanced character, except for charisma that can be a bit lower. And since he also wanted to play Minmatar as me, he ended up with the same Race, Bloodline and Ancestry and the same point distribution, or so I thought, as he got 8 - 8 - 7 - 8 - 8, which is a total of 39. After reading this thread again, I realised everyone should have 39 starting attributes, well, everyone except me ... Currently I have 22 - 22 - 20 - 22 - 20, which results in 8 - 8 - 7 - 8 - 7 starting stats, I used the formula : Base = roundup ( displayed_attrib/(1+ Learning_lvl*0,02) ) - basic - advanced - implant I have all basic learning skills at 5 ( Including Learning itself ) All advanced at 4 and +3 implants for all stats I then also read that you can check your base stats in your XML sheet ( under my character ), and lo and behold, my stats are 8 - 8 - 7 - 8 - 7 grrr Here is a copy/paste from the character xml : <attributes> <intelligence>8</intelligence> <memory>7</memory> <charisma>7</charisma> <perception>8</perception> <willpower>8</willpower> </attributes> So all this time I was missing 1 stat, I just petitioned this, and hope CCP can resolve this. So people, better start checking those stats :p Greetings, CyberGh0st. CyberGh0st aka Cyberwiz aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Retired @ DAoC / WoW / SWG / LOTRO / Diablo / Planetside / Entropia / Lineage / Guildwars / EQ / UO
Nequrian	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:48:00 - [317] I read hole forum, and there were only one formula (bad one). I need formula how to calculate SP needed for level up when I know only level and rank. For example: Level 1 (rank 1) = 250 Level 2 (rank 1) = 1414 Level 3 .... and more. The formula that I read here "(((2^((2.5 x Level)-2.5)) x 250) x Rank)" is bad, because when I take 2 to (((2,51)-2,5)250)*1) that will give me 1 no 250!
Tripoli XenTech	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:29:00 - [318] I believe your math may be wrong. I checked my formula (which I also have in a spreadsheet) and it works just fine. When calculating a level 1 skill, remember that anything to the zeroth power is always 1, so for any level 1 skill the forumla simplifies down to 250Rank. --- All 360 skills trained.*
Marine HK4861 Caldari Radical Technologies	Posted - 2009.02.08 08:08:00 - [319] Nequrian's copy and pasted this question into another thread and we've already educated him accordingly.

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