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Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2004.05.21 17:15:00 -
[1]
Increasing the sig radius of a ship with MWD equipped will make it ridiculous to try and use it for running blockades. Just think, the fast lock ships that are already camped there will lock you even faster, and will have an easier time hitting you.
Just thought i'd point that out..
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Sochin
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Posted - 2004.05.21 19:03:00 -
[2]
Uh, I think thats exactly the purpose behind the MWD nerf. MWDing frigates are currently almost impossible to hit. At least this will give on-the-ball blockade pilots a chance to do something about them.
Nemo me impune lacessit
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OFFT
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Posted - 2004.05.21 19:22:00 -
[3]
Damn...just trained Interceptor Level 4 .....will mwd skill mean a decrease in this "emission"....per level....I doubt it ...shame
OFFT FORM LIFE :SIMPLE IN A COMPLICATED WAY Some players make EVE history : Other players are EVE history
"We cant all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and and clap as they go by"
scooooshcrumpzerump (c) Random RandomnesesesesÖ |
KrakizBad
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Posted - 2004.05.21 20:15:00 -
[4]
If this happens it will probably affect the interceptor after the lvl inty skill is taken into consideration. As an inty pilot that's main task is transporting large amounts of zydrine and mega, i will hate to see this nerf. If you remember eve before the first BIG patch, then you remember how frigs were crap. Then they got super bonus' and are damn hard to kill. Now they're nerfing them again? I feel like an inty pilot on the end of CCP's yo-yo.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.21 20:50:00 -
[5]
"on the ball" pilots ALLREADY have a lot of options.
Smartbombing instas
Jumping and hitting ships as they uncloak on the other side
Auto-targeters
Mobile Warp Disruptors
Multiple Sensor Boosters
And others.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
deathbyfire
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:14:00 -
[6]
can someoen from the dev team tell me....
WHO IN THERE RIGHT ******* MIND CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF GIVING A ARES A SIG RADIUS OF ALMOST 400 WITH A MWD ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the megathron has one of 440 THAT MAKES NO ****IGN SENCE!!!!!!!!!!
YOU ARE MAKING IT IMPOSIBLE FOR FRIGS TO SURVIVE IN BATTLE
60% i can understande but NOT 500%.
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:17:00 -
[7]
The problem is that its impossible to HIT a frigate with a MWD. They are trying to encourage the use of afterburners in combat. Which I agree with.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:29:00 -
[8]
500%? neat! HAHAHAHA. Er.
Anyway....
Just use web and missile them allready. Wham, bamb, dead. The unchanged missile physics mean that a cruise missile can swat an interceptor perfectly well.
There is NO need to make a MWD-ing interceptor as easy to hit as a BS! A MWD-ong blasterthron will light itelf up as a target, so I can't see blaterthrons EVER again at 500% signature. PERIOD.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Bella Verde
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:42:00 -
[9]
It is a stupid idea, the signature radius increase.
I proposed that the frigate MWD would reduce the agility of the frigate by a very large amount making turning very difficult, but obviously it was not considered.
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Gaheris
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:47:00 -
[10]
hey guys, i'm sure you'd know this if you bothered checking the changes out on chaos, but you'll find that the mwd increased sig radius makes you no faster to lock from any ship (so if a bship takes 15s to lock you with your mwd off, it takes 15s to lock you with it on), and the fact you are travelling at 2.5-3km/s+ makes you no easier to hit than if you had your mwd offline and travelled to the gate at base speed.
but you knew that... right? because otherwise you'd have no reason to sit here b!tching about it...
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.21 21:58:00 -
[11]
Some of us STILL have a proxy issue which keeps on dropping us from chaos. However the mentioned figure dosn't sound like it's equal for being HIT.
Bella Verde, I agree. (And making MWD's work off base speed not current, which'd affect 2 MWD setups).
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Ju'Co
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Posted - 2004.05.21 22:08:00 -
[12]
/me is happy
After some small testing with me intie I couldn't get hit by a BS with blasters equipped (Large ones) going to test meds and smalls though soon, hehe.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.05.21 22:37:00 -
[13]
I dont like the mwd change , the signature increase, really dont like the idea.
Better would be even the nerf of mwd/ab stacking .
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.05.21 22:40:00 -
[14]
On second tought maybe it isnt so bad, maybe it has ssome sense.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Nuladen
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Posted - 2004.05.21 23:17:00 -
[15]
 Quote:
The problem is that its impossible to HIT a frigate with a MWD. They are trying to encourage the use of afterburners in combat. Which I agree with.
Tell that to my frozen corpse will you [;)]
Nul.
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Balthial Ashaere
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Posted - 2004.05.21 23:20:00 -
[16]
Ok, here's my two ISK, for what it's worth:
It seems to me like CCP wants to set some accuracy standards, and it's based on both ship speed and signature radius; this has nothing to do with lock timings. From what I read in the Eight's Blog, they're trying to manipulate frigates in general so that they have the same chance to be hit with or without MWDs equiped; if you use a MWD, your speed increases, which makes you harder to track and hit, but your signature increases, which makes it easier to track and hit you, while it's the inverse without a MWD. I believe this is a fair concept towards balance that needs to be set, but I do think CCP needs to balance it so that the virtual accuracies of various ship types are in the correct order. I'm not certain if it's lined up correctly now, because I don't play on Chaos or Entropy, but it sounds like some of you are focusing on the wrong things. Everyone is concentrating on this huge sig increase with MWDs, but forgetting the fact that the huge increase in speed makes you much harder to track and hit, thereby negating the accuracy bonus the Battleship's weapons would have when tacking you; this holds true across the board. This is also something that will affect all ships in general, no just interceptors, and let's face it, 5% sig reduction per level is still pretty damn good; you get that to level five and you can shave off a clean 25% of your sig, which is still better than your average frigate.
In conclusion, let's just wait and see how things go. 
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"Convergent Corporation - Infinite Opportunities; One Future!"
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"Convergent Mining Division - Refining The Foundation Of The Future!"
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Herophant
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Posted - 2004.05.22 01:30:00 -
[17]
/emote starts singing "The end"
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 02:53:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 02:54:53
Step 1: Make speed no protection for frigates in combat
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Goodbye frigates in combat!
35% speed increase just dosn't cut it. Only frigs which can mount a 10MW AB will survive..and CCP will nerf those too, I'm sure.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Batmannuel
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Posted - 2004.05.22 03:41:00 -
[19]
Stop complaning and just move on.
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Managalar
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Posted - 2004.05.22 04:33:00 -
[20]
I don't see why we need such a change. If someone is setup for speed, then they obviously are not interested in fighting...so why force them into combat?
=======Abaddon=======
=======Abaddon======= |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 04:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 04:34:24
Lots of people will.
Losing a load of subs won't do much for CCP of course.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
deathbyfire
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Posted - 2004.05.22 05:18:00 -
[22]
ok after test repediatly on chaos with multiple guns/ships unliek before (after teh sig incress was anounced) frigs we droping liek flies to bs guns now they work the same only ithey are targeted faster...which i agree with fully. though it needs correcting
you are able to fire on teh target(a.k.a. it is targeted) before teh time thing saiys locked the icon for the ship shows up before you are finished locking and you are able to fire.
so this is a bug that needs to be fixed
my complaints were not for how it is on chaos not but from before because L gusn still can't hit a frig
it just means that med/small guns will still be able to hit a MWDing ship teh same as a non witch i am fine with.
so all i ahve to say is good work ccp
-------------------------------
Evolve and adapt or die.
The choice is yours to make and no one elses.
"Your current safe bounries were once unsafe frontiers"-unknown
"Stupid people, can't live with them, and can't kill them because there would only be 1000 people left to play eve."-Me :D |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2004.05.22 05:21:00 -
[23]
Use instajumps like the rest of the galaxy. 0% risk, 0% cost, 100% efficency. Go girl go!
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2004.05.22 05:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 05:34:16
There's a guarenteed way to destroy insta-jumping frigates and indies. A lot of people know exactly what it is... (and yes, it's entirely legit)
And right, frigates are now a complete waste of time. Maybe even for scouting...hm...stabber heavy scout...
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2004.05.22 06:16:00 -
[25]
So, if they make signature radius part of the to-hit calculation to make frigates more viable in warfare, why this change?
I have noticed that the best bet you have of catching an enemy pilot (of another frig) is when that person is orbitting his battleship friend. He tend to stay and fight then.
What these changes will *really* only accomplish, is to make the secondary ships at a fight hit the MWDing ships extremely easy. It will limit close range combat, and not at all promote it. Note how the chance of hitting the ship will remain the same for the one being orbitted, but will increase extremely for everyone else...
A Megathron closing in on it's enemies will also have a hard time.
--
If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. |
XuevranLed
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Posted - 2004.05.22 08:31:00 -
[26]
If they want us to use afterburner more then need to (1) make existing burners a bit more effective and (2) add new sizes, like 2MN and 5MN. One of hte problems with burners is theyre under-rated for the ships...supposed to give you a certain boost at 1M kg, 10M kg, etc. but like no ships of the appropriate class actually weigh that, theyre usually like 1.5x the rated mass or more! Which would be ok except that most ships, especially small ones like frigs, dont have lots of extra midslots to pile on the afterburners. Plus, making oversize stuff like 5MN would encourage more care in modding the ship...currently you can do this by putting the next-size AB on your ship but its REALLY hard to do.
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DeMundus
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Posted - 2004.05.22 09:20:00 -
[27]
iam still a bit new to this game - for 1 i decided to become an interceptor pilot, I can afford the ships and think they are great.
But used alot of time training interceptor skills up... ccp should i fell that this was a complete waste of time? It did take ages to be able to fly such a bird... havent even thought about training for a BS yet.
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Outcastino
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Posted - 2004.05.22 09:31:00 -
[28]
I can tell you one thing, its completely impossible to lock a frigate that uncloaks and warps to somewhere.
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I love the smell off cookies in the morning, smells like victory! |
jukriamrr
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Posted - 2004.05.22 10:32:00 -
[29]
Maybe they could modify an existing skill so that this signature radius penalty will ne lowered when you raise it?
Like: high speed maneuvering decreases the penalty by 10% per level.
That would reward time spent on raising some skills. Now what some of us feel is only punishment and waste of time (ah, and READ-LIFE MONEY TOO!!!).
Cheers :)
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Letifer Deus
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:15:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 27/05/2004 02:18:12
why doesn't CCP just get it over with and make it so only bships are capable of doing anything. That is basically where they are going...
If they are going to make the sig radius jump some rediculous amount, like 500%, how about doubling the base speed of all frigates, then I can do ~1000m/s base, and ~1400 with an AB, sounds fair to me... And double cruiser speed too...
I am the OG PIIIIIMP |
Xeris
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Posted - 2004.05.27 02:34:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/05/2004 05:34:16
And right, frigates are now a complete waste of time. Maybe even for scouting...hm...stabber heavy scout...
Except for the part where you can align and warp almost as fast as a pod.
Too lazy to get my sig changed |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.05.27 06:08:00 -
[32]
See, here's where I see the big problem:
Frigate is hard to hit while it's orbiting you. Right? Right. That's because of the transversal velocity.
However... Most of the time, the MWD is used to APPROACH a target, not to orbit it! So your easy target (because of the near 0 transversal speed) is a MUCH easier target (because of the vastly increased sig radius)!
But wait, it gets worse. They are now making it so you can only travel in a straight line with an MWD... so you CAN'T orbit with a MWD. Which makes the need for the increased sensor radius entirely redundant.
'Course, I'm talking about real combat here where both parties are fighting, not sitting at a stupid gate and killing people going through.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Levin Cavil
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Posted - 2004.05.27 06:24:00 -
[33]
You CAN hit a MWDing frig, if it flies right at you or away from you, get 2 bs and set them 40-50km apart, as soon as a frig shows up one of those two bs can hit it no prob.
As for the sig radius ghange, WTF!?!? yet another retarded un-necessary change. WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!?!?
I can tell you one thing, I am yet another un-satisfied customer and you won't get another dime from me if you even keep talking like this, the players deserve better. The amount of time I play eve has already been cut down by 75% or more because it isn't any fun anymore, there is not promised content and threats of contstnat bull**** changes. You put even one of these retarded lazy changes in and I'll leave, great as Eve is the only thing keeping you afloat is the fact that you really don't have competition, as soon as a similar game shows up WHAM! no more subscribers. I have no confidence left in you.
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<Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.27 07:48:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Gariuys on 27/05/2004 07:52:55
Originally by: Ronyo Dae'Loki
See, here's where I see the big problem:
Frigate is hard to hit while it's orbiting you. Right? Right. That's because of the transversal velocity.
However... Most of the time, the MWD is used to APPROACH a target, not to orbit it! So your easy target (because of the near 0 transversal speed) is a MUCH easier target (because of the vastly increased sig radius)!
But wait, it gets worse. They are now making it so you can only travel in a straight line with an MWD... so you CAN'T orbit with a MWD. Which makes the need for the increased sensor radius entirely redundant.
'Course, I'm talking about real combat here where both parties are fighting, not sitting at a stupid gate and killing people going through.
ROFLMAO you just gave THE reason for this change. MWD is for approaches, ( where the increased sig radius doesn't affect things all that much ) it's not ment for sustained orbiting at 3km/s+ this is where the sig change does affect things and using a mwd will make you just as easy to hit as not using it.
If you want a speed advantage to make you harder to hit, use a AB, if you need to approach fast, use a mwd. Where's the OMFG FRIGATES ARE USELESS AGAIN NOW bit? Oh right it ain't there.
And maybe I missed something but the dev blog says that they where thinking about making a mwd a straight line only thing. Or did that change without me noticing? And with the reduced activation time ( Thank you TomB, awesome truly awesome ) you can use it when absolutely needed and deactivate it the second ( or 4 ;) ) you don't need it anymore.
Edit: And with all the balance changes a frig won't be hard to hit cause of transversal velocity alone ( although it will still play a role, but you don't need 3km/s for it ) it will be because of their sig radius.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Zansin
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Posted - 2004.05.27 08:49:00 -
[35]
you ppl dont seem to realise frigates arnt surposed to b able to take out battleships damn it all you guys crying because ur gonna get pwned by bships even more now no 1 cares buy a bigger ship |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:02:00 -
[36]
step2: SigRadius matters, mr rkell.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Iluyen
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:33:00 -
[37]
The problem with frigs in combat was that they packed to much punch (cruise missiles).
I kill interceptors daily in a BS. People should start learning to play the game instead of whining on the boards how they cannot hit a MWDing frigate. These changes to MWD's will be applied to all ship types and will just add another negative to the MWD.
People fit MWD's to be harder to hit, increasing the chance to hit to negate the speed reduces the MWD to a travel mod that cannot be used in combat.
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Abraham Azadian
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zansin
you ppl dont seem to realise frigates arnt surposed to b able to take out battleships damn it all you guys crying because ur gonna get pwned by bships even more now no 1 cares buy a bigger ship
We've got another genius ...
MONEY CAN'T GET YOU 100% SECURITY !!
There will always be smart players who will find a way to eradicate your shiny battleship with a few frigates.
LIBERONS LES PETITES CULOTTES !
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.05.27 09:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zansin
you ppl dont seem to realise frigates arnt surposed to b able to take out battleships damn it all you guys crying because ur gonna get pwned by bships even more now no 1 cares buy a bigger ship
So you are suggesting that now on TQ BSs are helpless vs frigates? and that frig vs BS balance is scewed in favor of the frig?
Anyway i don't really mind the changes. Not because i 100% agree with them but because there is no real point in arguing anymore. They will come and people will adapt.
Were the changes nessesary? Imho not all of em.
Wrecking shot calculations was nessesary. Tracking overhaul was not.
I notice people in Chaos going: "Oh wow, my thorax can now orbit at optimal around a bs with no speed boosting modules on and not get hit!" .... i wonder how many of them knew that this was possible on TQ for several months now.
The problem was never getting hit by long range turrets while orbiting at, what the majority of the EVE playerbase would have termed as, slowass speeds. The problem was getting there. 2nd MWD nerf (mass, lower boost) + ****** up orbit mechanics + Locking times pretty much ensured that you would die before getting to the desirable position. How many of those were adressed? only orbiting was.
If CCP had just mended the wrecking hit formula and adressed either speed issues or the locking times, it would have saved itself from a lot of trouble, like trying to balance frig mwd.
If they had left tracking as it is in TQ now... they only thing the would have to worry about Frig vs BS combat would be absolutely nothing.
1) Turret frigs have to switch mwd off anyway. To get decent hits and to ensure steady cap flow. They also have to close in under 10km which means they can be webbed, sbombed if they come even closer.
2) Missile frigs would now have to stay at 10-20km as lights don't have long flight times. Scramble, launch drones. Their damage output has been lessened, you can't have em come down to web range or be vulnerable to turret fire as well cause they can mwd.
Nway, to all those complaining... this is the way of the MMORPG, wait until they come to TQ find out what works and what doesn't and if you like it you play if you don't you leave. That's how it works everywhere... complaining without having extensively tested or without seeing the final product is pointless 90% of the times...
P.S. I am gonna miss my turret frig/s vs cruise missile frig/s skirmishes.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:23:00 -
[40]
Balance people, balance. If you mount an AB on your frig then you won't be able to outrun missiles but after the changes only light missiles will be able to hit you.
This is not about gate campers. It's about balance in battles, it's about making BS and frigs virtually invulnerable to eachother and then in the middle ground you have cruisers. What they are trying to do is make the loss ratio the same for each ship. As it stands now cruisers almost always all get killed, you will most likely lose 100% of cruisers in a multiship fleet battle. You'll probably lose 50% of your BS and 75% of your frigs. Now, after the changes take place, with the same number of ships, against the same enemy, in the same ammount of time you will lose 50% of BS, 50% of cruisers and 50% of frigs. Think about it.
Star of battle : End of battle
Before changes
4 BS : 2 BS
10 Cruisers : 0 Cruisers
20 Frigs : 5 Frigs
After changes:
4 BS : 2 BS
10 Cruisers : 5 Cruisers
20 Frigs : 10 Frigs
Not only does it make it so that frigs and cruisers have an increased chance of survival but it makes it so that fleets HAVE TO bring these ships to the table in order to succeed.
If you have a bunch of frigs flying around with MWD in battles it would be POINTLESS, nothing would ever hit them. So they increase the sig radius so that a BS with a 1400mm can kill your ass in one shot. "SO WHAT DO I DO NOW?" Well you run an AB. "BUT OMG, NOW MISSILES WILL BE ABLE TO HIT ME!" Yes, but only light missiles from other frigs, and WOW, you will be able to hit them too! Now isn't this much more interesting???
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.05.27 11:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: KrakizBad
If this happens it will probably affect the interceptor after the lvl inty skill is taken into consideration. As an inty pilot that's main task is transporting large amounts of zydrine and mega, i will hate to see this nerf. If you remember eve before the first BIG patch, then you remember how frigs were crap. Then they got super bonus' and are damn hard to kill. Now they're nerfing them again? I feel like an inty pilot on the end of CCP's yo-yo.
Inty pilot here who is going to sell his inty account with 4mil skillpoints at next patch for a nice sum of isk.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Loka
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Posted - 2004.05.27 12:03:00 -
[42]
Iam curious to see how mwd-changes will hit a blasterthron. It would be deadl to see a Tempest at 40 km shooting at you with almost perfect hits all the time :*/
_____________________________________
Dead or Alive
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.05.27 12:34:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Alowishus
Balance people, balance. If you mount an AB on your frig then you won't be able to outrun missiles but after the changes only light missiles will be able to hit you.
Missile physics won't change with next patch. Cruise will be able to hit Frigs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.05.27 12:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Zansin
you ppl dont seem to realise frigates arnt surposed to b able to take out battleships damn it all you guys crying because ur gonna get pwned by bships even more now no 1 cares buy a bigger ship
I think this is quite an ignorant statement and sadly is illustrative of a certain fantasy game treadmill (gotta get the +10 holy vorpal avenger of doom and be immortal) mindset of linear progression.
For me the thing that makes Eve great is the interaction of different class ships and tactics and I absolutely believe that 4 cooporating players in cheap ships should be able to take out one rich guy loner with decent tactics and preparations. Sadly this mondo frigate nerfing and uber battleship patching is selling out to the big wallets I suspect.
By the by, I currently own 5 different battleships, a dozen cruisers and an assortment of frigates and interceptors. And with the current Tranquility build all are useful for different roles and circumstances. My opposition to many of the Chaos changes is based on a feeling that the game is about to get a lot more 2 dimensional and there really won't be any point flying anything apart from battleship class vessel.
Still, this is nothing we haven't seen before. Its pretty much what the state of the game was pre castor. So rather a regressive step not a progressive one.
JF Public Forum |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:12:00 -
[45]
Strange how that works, all I see is a redefining of roles. Where a all frigate fleet will be as useless as a all BS fleet or all cruiser fleet. And all ship classes will be required including elite ships all doing their own thing. Instead of having the extremely limited roles frigates play now. And the removal of ships that where clearly over or underpowered, or serving a role they shouldn't be able to.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think this is quite an ignorant statement and sadly is illustrative of a certain fantasy game treadmill (gotta get the +10 holy vorpal avenger of doom and be immortal) mindset of linear progression.
For me the thing that makes Eve great is the interaction of different class ships and tactics and I absolutely believe that 4 cooporating players in cheap ships should be able to take out one rich guy loner with decent tactics and preparations. Sadly this mondo frigate nerfing and uber battleship patching is selling out to the big wallets I suspect.
By the by, I currently own 5 different battleships, a dozen cruisers and an assortment of frigates and interceptors. And with the current Tranquility build all are useful for different roles and circumstances. My opposition to many of the Chaos changes is based on a feeling that the game is about to get a lot more 2 dimensional and there really won't be any point flying anything apart from battleship class vessel.
Still, this is nothing we haven't seen before. Its pretty much what the state of the game was pre castor. So rather a regressive step not a progressive one.
Why this forum doesn't have a heart smiley, I'll never know.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: DREAMWORKS
Originally by: KrakizBad
If this happens it will probably affect the interceptor after the lvl inty skill is taken into consideration. As an inty pilot that's main task is transporting large amounts of zydrine and mega, i will hate to see this nerf. If you remember eve before the first BIG patch, then you remember how frigs were crap. Then they got super bonus' and are damn hard to kill. Now they're nerfing them again? I feel like an inty pilot on the end of CCP's yo-yo.
Inty pilot here who is going to sell his inty account with 4mil skillpoints at next patch for a nice sum of isk.
The single fact that you think that the mwd changes and missile changes make interceptors useless shows A) that there was/is a serious problem cause not all frigates/interceptors can use a mwd equally, and most certainly not all frigates/interceptors can use missiles B) You don't understand what a interceptor is ment to be doing. ( nope it SURE AS HELL AIN'T doing enough damage to kill a BS, you're supposed to bring other ships to actually do the damage )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.05.27 13:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Gariuys
The single fact that you think that the mwd changes and missile changes make interceptors useless shows A) that there was/is a serious problem cause not all frigates/interceptors can use a mwd equally, and most certainly not all frigates/interceptors can use missiles
The missile changes don't make frigates useless. they just make some of them do lots less damage. The Taranis and its friends will still have the same kickass damage potential. The damage they can do doesn't really matter at this point though, as all frigates will die to battleships as soon as they are locked.
Quote:
B) You don't understand what a interceptor is ment to be doing. ( nope it SURE AS HELL AIN'T doing enough damage to kill a BS, you're supposed to bring other ships to actually do the damage )
With the current changes the way they are, interceptors are only good for one thing. Exploding. And maybe ganking indys. But exploding then too if the indy pilot isn't a lazy greedy bastard.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.05.27 15:13:00 -
[49]
Quote:
The single fact that you think that the mwd changes and missile changes make interceptors useless shows A) that there was/is a serious problem cause not all frigates/interceptors can use a mwd equally, and most certainly not all frigates/interceptors can use missiles B) You don't understand what a interceptor is ment to be doing. ( nope it SURE AS HELL AIN'T doing enough damage to kill a BS, you're supposed to bring other ships to actually do the damage )
I think this is quite uninformed opinion as well. And here is why:
I use my interceptor to target enemy frigates and interceptors as part of their fleet structure. I chase wounded cruisers and battleships and try to warp scramble them and I toss the occassional salvo of missiles at worthy targets. Only once have I been a part of a battleship kill in an a pure interceptor squadron and that was like 20 to 1.
So I think I am actually doing "what interceptors are supposed to do".
But with the coming patch none of that will be doable.
If I approach a mixed fleet I die.
Missiles will destroy me if I don't have mwd.
Gunfire from non orbitted enemy capital ships will kill me if I do.
Enemy gun interceptors and frigates will destroy me with web and guns if by some miracle the battleship and cruise don't blow me to bits first.
Hence my Caldari 5, Interceptor 4, Crow frigate, is quite simply a waste of time.
For "scouting" I may as well use a 2mwd standard frigate with no guns. (that at least has a chance of escaping the hail of super accurate battleship fire).
I do take offense at all this talk of "current imbalances" because its by and large rubbish. Stuff and nonsense talked up by people who have never actually tried to kill battleships in frigates.
And people are really fooling themselves if they think there is any role for "intercepting" with "interceptors" in the immediate future.
Me = back to the battleships with the sensible people.
It's a shame because I love frigate warfare but damned if I am going to be a martyr to all the nerfing brought on by whinging battleship jockeys.
JF Public Forum |
Iksaar'Ta
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Posted - 2004.05.27 15:23:00 -
[50]
Dans mes bras Jade !
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.05.27 15:39:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 27/05/2004 15:45:53
Pardon my ignorance, but I though that sig radius had to do with time needed to obtain target lock, not the chance of hitting the target. Hit chance is calculated upon tracking speed and speed of the target (lateral/radial? speed). How does sig radius influence hit chance?
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Hanns
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Posted - 2004.05.27 15:49:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ju'Co
/me is happy
After some small testing with me intie I couldn't get hit by a BS with blasters equipped (Large ones) going to test meds and smalls though soon, hehe.
So if its making no difference WHY CHANGE IT?????
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perl
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Posted - 2004.05.27 16:54:00 -
[53]
i¦ve said it before and ill say it again, changeing mwd is just stupid.
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2004.05.27 18:57:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Edited by: Luc Boye on 27/05/2004 15:45:53
Pardon my ignorance, but I though that sig radius had to do with time needed to obtain target lock, not the chance of hitting the target. Hit chance is calculated upon tracking speed and speed of the target (lateral/radial? speed). How does sig radius influence hit chance?
`
Better read the whole Dev Blog and related comments man. Signature radius will be part of the to-hit calculations in the next patch. It ain't just lock time anymore, it a stat that will impact the entire fight.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Belzavior
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Posted - 2004.05.27 19:24:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Luc Boye
Edited by: Luc Boye on 27/05/2004 15:45:53
Pardon my ignorance, but I though that sig radius had to do with time needed to obtain target lock, not the chance of hitting the target. Hit chance is calculated upon tracking speed and speed of the target (lateral/radial? speed). How does sig radius influence hit chance?
Ok to lay it out real simple, currently thats how it works on tranq. It doesn't matter if its a city sized Titan orbiting you at 3km/s or a frigate orbiting you at 3km/s. Both are equally hard to hit. So the Devs in all their wisdom decided that hey, a frig should be alot harder to hit than a titan or BS in similar situations.
So now the "to-hit" calculations use a combination of Sig Radius and transversal velocity. For example you have a frig orbiting your ship at optimal range without using speed boosters. Using a S turret you might have a 50% chance to hit, a M turret a 25% and a L turret a 12.5%. Now reverse that so that a BS is orbiting and a S turret should have 87.5%, M turret 75%, and a L turret 50%. First example could be shooting an apple at 30 yards with a 22, 50 cal machine gun, and a bazooka. The second would be similar except shooting at a barn.
So far so good. Now after mentioning these changes of course the player base in all of its infinate wisdom starts complaining about MWDs and how frigates are already hard to hit when they have a MWD on, if they are made even harder because of sig radius then they'll be impossible to hit. And to be honest it would be true.
So now the Devs decided that if you turn on that MWD it will increase your sig rad to compensate for the speed increase. Not making you easier to hit, but not making you harder to hit either. Sounds good in theory anyways.
Heres where we run into problems. Turning on a MWD is a must to escape missiles until missile physics is reworked. Cruise Missiles own frigates if they donÆt MWD currently. Now the second you leave a ships orbit to run from a missile now that BS turret is going to be able to shoot you like you are a Battleship sized target. And chances are you wonÆt have enough transversal velocity to compensate because you are running from a missile volley. Or if you have an MWD on and there is another Battleship a bit farther away, they get to shoot at you as if you were a battleship yourself.
All in all I agree with the MWD nerf, however putting it in before the changes to missile physic changes is gonna cause a lot of people to shelf their frigs for awhile
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.05.27 19:44:00 -
[56]
Belzavior,
Thank you, that was a very eloquent and fair summary of the core issue and does perfectly explain the problem in my view.
Luc Boye
Quote:
Pardon my ignorance, but I though that sig radius had to do with time needed to obtain target lock, not the chance of hitting the target. Hit chance is calculated upon tracking speed and speed of the target (lateral/radial? speed). How does sig radius influence hit chance?
I think your (hitherto flawed) understanding is almost quite typical of a lot of people Luc; they just skim the devblog and patch notes and donÆt really understand the totality of what is being done. ItÆs not just a rebalance; itÆs a messy destruction of current roles and capabilities to address a problem of the devÆs own making.
I really donÆt believe that the introduction of the new targeting model is important enough for us to have to suffer a period of nerfed mwd + no missile agility fix that will mean all frigates die automatically. The game is perfectly playable at the moment, why force us to suffer a period of total class inbalance to fix a problem created by new targetting equations?
Though there would be a certain satisfaction in saying ôI told you soö when and if this change is implemented and all non-battleship platforms die in absolute droves, I do think its going to do nothing but harm to player trust in the developers grasp of balance and continuity of ship capability, and it will certainly make people very wary of specialising in anything.
The current situation (pending this new patch) is that you are crazy to specialise since the response to public protest and moaning at perceived (and illogically perceived at that) imbalance is extreme knee jerk ôfixesö that remove all benefit and potential advantage from skill specialisation.
Now I donÆt know about you, but I rather like the idea of the universe of Eve being filled with pilots who have specialised and learned different ships to pilot in different roles and who being variety to combat groups and engagements.
Sadly at the moment the only sensible option is to stick with the mainstream and learn all four battleships and all four large guns and all gunnery skills (to 4 each) so at least one can ride out the nerfs and balances in the moderate confidence that the developers will never do anything to hurt *all* battleships too badly.
Sadly one cannot make the same decision in relative confidence for the other ship types.
JF Public Forum |
Centauri
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Posted - 2004.05.27 20:03:00 -
[57]
This change certainly seems to benefit pirates a heck of a lot.
Already, if you don't have MULTIPLE warp core stabilizers and at least two MWD's, you can't get through a blockade. With these changes, you won't get through short of a huge fleet battle which not everyone can afford.
I don't want to re-hash old "whines" but this is indeed somewhat unfair to those who can't potentially afford the lost of hundreds of millions of ISK. And don't give me the "stay in empire space" then. We all pay the same fee per month, we all deserve equal treatment. If I happen to not spend seven hours per day playing a game, seven days per week, I should not be penalized.
That being said, I'm not one of those classic whiners. I come from a good sized, strong corporation. We have plentiful assets and talented players. But I don't see how short of mobilizing half our fleet that we'll be able to get anywhere.
One shouldn't need a corp of 70+ members and a dozen battleships to enjoy what accounts for more than 50% of playable space in this game. We're already faced with a mere HANDFUL of small entrances to 0.0 which are religiously guarded by pirate campers. Handing them this advantage seems excessive. What do we get to compensate?
Centauri,
Former Fleet Admiral of Star Control |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.05.27 22:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Belzavior
Originally by: Luc Boye
Edited by: Luc Boye on 27/05/2004 15:45:53
Pardon my ignorance, but I though that sig radius had to do with time needed to obtain target lock, not the chance of hitting the target. Hit chance is calculated upon tracking speed and speed of the target (lateral/radial? speed). How does sig radius influence hit chance?
Ok to lay it out real simple, currently thats how it works on tranq. It doesn't matter if its a city sized Titan orbiting you at 3km/s or a frigate orbiting you at 3km/s. Both are equally hard to hit. So the Devs in all their wisdom decided that hey, a frig should be alot harder to hit than a titan or BS in similar situations.
So now the "to-hit" calculations use a combination of Sig Radius and transversal velocity. For example you have a frig orbiting your ship at optimal range without using speed boosters. Using a S turret you might have a 50% chance to hit, a M turret a 25% and a L turret a 12.5%. Now reverse that so that a BS is orbiting and a S turret should have 87.5%, M turret 75%, and a L turret 50%. First example could be shooting an apple at 30 yards with a 22, 50 cal machine gun, and a bazooka. The second would be similar except shooting at a barn.
So far so good. Now after mentioning these changes of course the player base in all of its infinate wisdom starts complaining about MWDs and how frigates are already hard to hit when they have a MWD on, if they are made even harder because of sig radius then they'll be impossible to hit. And to be honest it would be true.
So now the Devs decided that if you turn on that MWD it will increase your sig rad to compensate for the speed increase. Not making you easier to hit, but not making you harder to hit either. Sounds good in theory anyways.
Heres where we run into problems. Turning on a MWD is a must to escape missiles until missile physics is reworked. Cruise Missiles own frigates if they donÆt MWD currently. Now the second you leave a ships orbit to run from a missile now that BS turret is going to be able to shoot you like you are a Battleship sized target. And chances are you wonÆt have enough transversal velocity to compensate because you are running from a missile volley. Or if you have an MWD on and there is another Battleship a bit farther away, they get to shoot at you as if you were a battleship yourself.
All in all I agree with the MWD nerf, however putting it in before the changes to missile physic changes is gonna cause a lot of people to shelf their frigs for awhile
Well after pages and pages of people whining about arming time being stupid, the hotfix for your problem ( not the solution ) got scrapped.
But basically we agree.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2004.05.28 02:31:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 28/05/2004 02:36:17
Yeah, I haven't read the patch notes, thats why I asked. Well it doesn't make sense, I can agree on the part that bigger ship should be easier to hit, but not frig running with mwd on, thats flawed logics.
I can understand the logics that you can lock someone using mwd faster, but not hit them.
Don't ships have size as well, why not take that into hit chance calculation instead?
And to be honest, I didn't have that much difficulty poping frigs so far, ask my corp mates 
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2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage. |
Rhuu
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Posted - 2004.05.28 03:15:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Centauri
One shouldn't need a corp of 70+ members and a dozen battleships to enjoy what accounts for more than 50% of playable space in this game. We're already faced with a mere HANDFUL of small entrances to 0.0 which are religiously guarded by pirate campers. Handing them this advantage seems excessive. What do we get to compensate?
Cloaking devices, I suppose... Unless I'm reading between the lines pretty badly, these are probably going to soon be available via agent missions from the faction that wins the jove guts contest. (As I can see no other reasonable way to distribute the limited run BPs effectively).
Crawling through a blocade invisible shouldn't be too hard. Though staying alive with the ever-necessary MWD on is going to be sadly and absurdly difficult.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.05.28 07:27:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Luc Boye
I can understand the logics that you can lock someone using mwd faster, but not hit them.
This is exactly what I was discussing in the Chaos review thread, before a dev went through and deleted my posts.
It's ridiculous that activating a MWD basically makes your frigate 'inflate', and become magically easier to hit.
The MWD should make your EM emissions go through the roof, so you're easier to TARGET, but because your physical size remains the same, you should not be any easier to actually HIT (the bullets still have to strike the same size surface to hit you).
Inflatable frigates. What next?
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2004.05.28 07:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Darkwolf
Inflatable frigates. What next?
Dead frigates comes next. Pretty quickly too.
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