This is not a class difference ..... those are ALL cruiser based hulls. This is specialisation difference (damage/tank vs ewar ruisers).

The next best comparison is racial cruisers vs racial battleships, since BCs still share the same skill set as cruisers (only the BC skill is different).

So your examples don't hold water. Going from frigs to cruisers is different than going between races for frigs, because the cruiser hull is built for slightly different purposes. In that example, training a different race in stead of a higher class is not comparable at all.

This sound slike quoting the ship descriptions. Actually all races can be flown in all alternatives. You cna make ammar brawlers and minmattar bricks no problems... the differences are 5% min max...

Look at the second paragraph you posted. You had no reason to train gallente or minmatar until you saw how amazing the Taranis could be you say. But wait you are falling in line wioth those saying that amazing diversity is "it's own reward"!!!! Wait what? Why did you not train the gallente and minmattar frigs to get "it's own reward" then dude?

It does not matter that now that you "can fly aything under the sun" (a bit loltastic but I won't bite) it makes little difference. It mattered A LOT in the eight or nine years you have spent getting there and the 8 or 9 years someone who is now joining the game is going to spend.

A lot of strong feeling and opposition in this threat but none of it is purely and economically logic. Give me logic or let the thread die away. Any other option and you ll keep hearing it...

What is the current proposal? Are we just looking for extra skills from having different racial skills or are we still looking for extra faction ships?

-Liang

They are different class vessels. Heavy Assault ships and Reckon cruisers. The fact that they are based on the cruiser hulls does not mean anything for balance purposes...

If for some reason that you think is important to look also at classes based on different size hulls for whatever reason (personally I do not find it is helpfull to the discussion) go to the same post you quote and look a wee bit further down there is an example involving HACs and BSs...

I do not see the relevance of the stated objection. EDIT: to clarify the comparison is what skillset you end up with if you take two chars both trained with 3 racial cruiser 5s and heavy assault cruiser 4 say and then the one spends the next 20 days training the fourth race cruiser level 5 ending up with "Set 2" and the other trains reckons 1 to 4 and support skills in the same 20 days and ends up with "Set 1"

In any event all these examples are by necessity technical and stylicized ... do not ge too hang up on technicalities.

Well Liang it's anyone's guess. Personally I do not like the idea of 4 faction ships because I do not like more isk sinks. However it is the one closest to CCP norms.

My proposal remains for a T1 vessel available, (let's start with frig, cruiser and BS) when you have all corresponding skills to 5. Let's say 1 mill isk cost (before market gains) at frig 10 at cruiser 150 at BS. Providing a small efficiency increase over the tech1 counterpart. Details TBD. OP numbers out of the question of course.

Alternative proposal naming a "transfer skill" for each race at each class. Affects correc race vessel at 5% per level, ally race vessel at 1% per level and enemy races levels at 0.5% per level.

As an example, flying an Omen you get 5% per level neut amount from ammar cruiser 5, 1% p/l optimal turret range / missile velocity from caldari cruiser 5 (obviously these skills would have to be of generic application), 0.5% per level web range from minm cruiser 5 and 0.5% per level web factor from gallente cruiser 5. All the above values and skills are simple, placeholders.

Such a widespread change of course should be first implemented for a few months in some more deserving classes only. Frigates-t1-, cruisers-t1-, then later HACs and AFs if all goes well... 6 months down the line it should be clear whether this should be extended to everyhingTM.

Well Liang it's anyone's guess. Personally I do not like the idea of 4 faction ships because I do not like more isk sinks. However it is the one closest to CCP norms.

My proposal remains for a T1 vessel available, (let's start with frig, cruiser and BS) when you have all corresponding skills to 5. Let's say 1 mill isk cost (before market gains) at frig 10 at cruiser 150 at BS. Providing a small efficiency increase over the tech1 counterpart. Details TBD. OP numbers out of the question of course.

Alternative proposal naming a "transfer skill" for each race at each class. Affects correc race vessel at 5% per level, ally race vessel at 1% per level and enemy races levels at 0.5% per level.

As an example, flying an Omen you get 5% per level neut amount from ammar cruiser 5, 1% p/l optimal turret range / missile velocity from caldari cruiser 5 (obviously these skills would have to be of generic application), 0.5% per level web range from minm cruiser 5 and 0.5% per level web factor from gallente cruiser 5. All the above values and skills are simple, placeholders.

Such a widespread change of course should be first implemented for a few months in some more deserving classes only. Frigates-t1-, cruisers-t1-, then later HACs and AFs if all goes well... 6 months down the line it should be clear whether this should be extended to everyhingTM.

The first one basically equates to more/better faction ships. Maybe even some Jove ships. Sure, I'm fine with that - though the price point being suggested is certainly unreasonable.

The second one would be OP as hell in my hands. I already **** up entire gangs at a go... add that into the mx?

-Liang

It addresses the problem that this one guy doesn't feel that having all four races isn't enough of an advantage or worthwhile compared to training just one or two factions. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the most prudent matter CCP has ever had on it's hands.

Why would I do that? I wholeheartedly support your quest on being a greedy so-and-so who wants to amass power for himself lazily by out of game means. It's the purest expression of the sand-box.

Now on to more pressing matters; my unprecedented support during your campaign surely cannot go un-noticed, a pittance of 100 million ISK would show good praise and ensure my position as your side-kick for this player movement for as long as it takes to get your voice heard.

Well you can see it like this. Faction ships with 4 factions instead of 2 and with a small mark up in performance and a huge park up in price from current faction ships. (if they edged ahead of faction BSs it would mean 1.5 bill + price Iguess)... and there is nothing wrong with what you are suggesting.

My suggestion however is not for performance above faction but for performance between t1 and t2 and closer to t1 if anything. That's why I want them to be at the suggested prices. I know it is completely alien to EvE paradigm of "always a bit better for a hell of a lot more isk" but hey...

As to the second one being OP: (a) perhaps I havent put it clearly that the 1st 5% p/l the vessel gets from the correct race bonus is what it gets allready so no change there. The additional performance comes from 1% of ally race and 0.5% from two hostile races... so imagine ... Omen as is today with 12km tech II web 2.5% more effective neuts and 2.5% more optimal for it's pulses... That's less than what you can do with 50 mill of hardwirings... how can it be considered OP?

12km T2 webs is not what you can do with 50M worth of hardwirings. And yes, in my hands it would be so OP as to be hilarious.

-Liang

+1, I would never let Liang anywhere near 12km base T2 webs.

I wouldn't let myself anywhere near 12km base T2 webs either. They would be hilariously OP.

Oh come on - you don't want me to get 12km base webs while basically nobody else does?

-Liang

Does balance mean "it would fit my skill layout in a really sweet way"?

+1, I would never let Liang anywhere near 12km base T2 webs.

I wouldn't let myself anywhere near 12km base T2 webs either. They would be hilariously OP.

If you want to reward transracial crosstraining, simply add a damage bonus to each of Eve's ship skills, against the type of vessel the skill allows you to fly. You can RP it away by saying the familiarity with the vessel you gained by training the skill allows you to pick out critical subsystems and familiar weak spots with your weapons fire, which translates to a 2/4/6/8/10% dmg boost per level against that specific ship type.

That way, folks who trained all four races get 10% bonus damage against every kind of ship! While folks who specialized in one race merely get a bonus toward fighting the ships they know how to fly.

Why do I always read this as Transcranial crosstraining?

That's... actually not that bad.

I dunno... I'm finding a 10% damage boost hard to swallow personally. I feel like there's some way to game the system with regards to "weak" ships vs FOTM, but you'd ultimately be making a gamble that nobody knows how to fly what you're flying. It might even be true if you're a BOBS pilot or HIC pilot or something.

At any rate, I believe any scheme like this should work off of an improved certificate system instead of just the ship skills - then we could see people actually being able to fly a Rupture with reasonable skills (T2 guns, T2 drones, T2 tank, etc) before getting a massive damage boost against it.

I'm -1 because I don't need more advantages because of my SP.

-Liang