I orginally wasn't going to post... but then I saw this gem...



What are you smoking and can I have some? Crosstraining different racial ship lines opens up numerous advantages in an innumerable amount of situations by giving you a wide selection of ships, mods, and weapons to chose from (see: "tactical flexibility").

Do you need to quickly gank someone and fly away? Minmitar and Gallente gunboats are good for this.
Do you need to dish out damage over a variety of ranges while soaking up damage (i.e. fleet combat)? Amarr laserboats are what you need.
Do you want to be a force multiplier that gives your guys an advantage against numbers? Caldari ECM boats will do the trick better than anything else.

I DISAGREE PAST 2nd RACE MINIMAL ADANTAGE SEE POSTS ABOVE FOR AMMAR DRONES AND MISSILES AND OTHER INTERESTING THINGS


Now... moving on to the rest of the post...



One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence. YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?

A good example would of this would be the Vexor vs. the Ishtar

The Vexor, when fully fitted (1600 plate fit of course), costs ~40 million. It can launch 3 heavy drones, has ~35k EHP, and deals ~400 DPS.
The Ishtar, when fully fitted (let's use the 1600 plate, dual-prop fit for consistency's sake), costs close to 200 mil. It can launch 5 heavy drones, has ~50k EHP, and deals ~550 DPS.

Stat-wise the Vexor has a clear advantage over the Ishtar in terms of ISK to power ratio. However, why you can't see is that the Ishtar has WAY more flexibility in terms of how you can fit it without losing out on it's specialty.
What flexibility you ask?
Whereas the Vexor is almost strictly limited to armor tanking the Ishtar is not. You can train to use shields and fit your Ishtar to utilize kiting tactics in a way the Vexor cannot even dream of (well... not technically true... you CAN shield tank a Vexor and fit it for kiting... but if a stiff enough wind hits you, the Vexor is toast).

tl;dr... what you are paying for, in essence, is greater tactical flexibility along with higher damage potential with the Ishtar over the Vexor.


I should also note that in the past I have said "cost is not a limiting factor for anything"... but your post has enlightened me to believe that this is not always the case.

So thus I will modify my statement to say: "Cost is not always a limiting factor for everything."




I think it's the other way around. What your are proposing effective mandates that people train to use these ships as they possess a very high advantage to cost ratio against "lowly T1 ships."
They will certainly be a 2% better option than t1 ships and cheaper than tech II so many people might choose to use them if they take the huge trouble of training for them. Does this detract from the game? It simply gives an incentive to expand training to other directions that is missing today.

My answers inserted. Regrettably I am not smoking anything

I see what you mean, and I don't like it. Others have already pointed out why this is a bad idea.

Gallente, right? I blame the Quafe.

Please read the previous answers as to why factions ships are not an answer here.

Regarding what you say here I ask you to answer this:

You can fly all cruiser sized vessels of two races. You are considering what to do next. You can train BS5 for one race or you can train cruiser 5 for another 2 races (or thereabouts). You think that these two incentives are equal?

EDIT Not for Pheusia but in general. I dont mind for people to say yes I see what you are saying but I dont like the idea. First however I want to make sure that we all open our eyes and look at the true issue. Then I ll accept disagreement and bugger off.

YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?

I do not. But you haven't really made your case on why this is a "bad" thing.
Why shouldn't people who want an extra 15 to 25% advantage over T1 ships pay through the nose to buy/lose it?

Honestly... what you are proposing is called "power creep" and it can only end in very bad things down the road.

Because the whole of EvE is based on paying more as the only way to get better vessels. I think this si just to make us run the treadmill for CCP electricity. It might be unavoidable but the occasional respite would be nice.

What I am proposing is not a tech II ship. No increas ein slots, resists, base stats, none of that. But a vessel that requires to have mastered all races to fly it, is decidedly tech I (in prices and mindset) but better than the exisitng tech I of its class. Somewhere close to tech II but not quite there would be nice. Freely available to all dirt cheap however. Nothing like faction ships.

I think this would be a welcome change from always having to pay more to get more. Cut down the grinding a bit too. Shock horror...

First off-cross training is its own reward. Its hard to see at the T1 level but as soon as you get in to T2's having more ships to choose from multiples your ability's substantially.


Second- Your ships benefit from 5 skills, this puts the ships tech level squarely at T3(or if you will 2.999999) so about the T1 price.......no


Third- Your idea would be better as a hull series that uses any ship skill.(ex-the frigate use your caldari frigate 3 over your gallente frigate 2)


Forth- "Omni" ships will only really work out as non-combat ships. other wise they will have to belong to a race on the grounds of weapon system: a ship that use all skills or any skill will still be Amarrian if it's weapon platform is lasers, also giving a "turret" bonus that apples to all would exclude pilots that use missiles or drones.

HTFU. ISK cost is the crux that balances ships of all sizes, tiers and pilot ages.

Because the whole of EvE is based on paying more as the only way to get better vessels. I think this si just to make us run the treadmill for CCP electricity. It might be unavoidable but the occasional respite would be nice.

What I am proposing is not a tech II ship. No increas ein slots, resists, base stats, none of that. But a vessel that requires to have mastered all races to fly it, is decidedly tech I (in prices and mindset) but better than the exisitng tech I of its class. Somewhere close to tech II but not quite there would be nice. Freely available to all dirt cheap however. Nothing like faction ships.

Other people in here understand it but dont like it. You still dont understand it and you have posted IDK how many times.

... what's the phrase again... ? "Work smarter, not harder." Grinding missions is a horrible way to earn ISK when you have a decent amount of skills and game knowledge under your belt.

-I never metnioned grinding missions. Its all grinding wether it is missions with a Draek or Titan sanctum raping or whatever industry / market / scamming. You still have to do it whatever it is you do well past the point where it has become tedious.-



Soooo... basically you want a T1 ship... with all the bonuses of a T2 ship... at T1 ship price.

-Allready skilling fully a tech I ship makes it so much better than an unskilled tech I ship that the difference is bigger than the comparison between fully skilled tech I ship and fully skilled tech II ship -

Please explain to me how this will not relegate T1 ships as nothing more than "stepping stones" for these ships. Hell... how will this not obsolete Faction Navy ships?

- To get to fly all vessels of this kind -in all ships classes I mean- you would need some 10 years I guess... or is it 30?- Therefore we are talking stepping boulders and not stepping stones AFAIK-


I'm sorry... but your idea runs so counter to some of the dearest principles in EVE that you have a snowball's chance in hell of this ever becoming reality.
Here we are agreed 100%. I think the direst oposition to this comes from prejudice.


Not Supported. Still thank you for posting and brainstorming

Snip.

Posting to show my support contempt for this good bad idea.

"I'm going to twist what you said and accuse you of not understanding."

Nice Ad Hominem, but I do understand.


Notice how I didn't say ISK price was the only factor.

Note how pilot age is referring mainly to the minimum time it takes to step into x ship with relevant core skills.

I'm getting quite sick of you attacking me and not my arguments because you don't have a good response.

Then I ll attack you no more go in peace.

PS When quoting leave the original text there for all the world to see please...

I wouldn't inflict that on people's mouse wheels for the sake of that.

The fact is even now you're not properly responding to my points, instead you try to paint me as being plain wrong or an idiot even though every other person here is echoing the same things I am - except for one person who just welcomed the idea of new hulls period.

pirate faction T2's

that is all.

I can't really comment on that entire post, because it was based on the consideration that my post was about how "ISK was the only way to get the advantage". It never was. I said ISK was a central - but not the only - balancing factor concerning ship hulls. By making essentially better hulls compete with their lower tech counterparts for pricing, you're creating a huge power creep based on age / aggregate SP. It's a gap that new pilots won't be able to fill in short order, because they'd have to up their current training plan several-fold compared to what a new pilot needs now to be able to catch up to an old pilot in a specific role.

But, several people have said this besides myself, which you'd appreciate if you took the time to process what they're telling you. It isn't just me.

More versatility was a reward once upon a time my dear. In the time of Ammar drone boats, ammar missle boats, when minmatar have the best siegelaunchersonafrig / stelth bomber and many more examples of this... then this argument pales.

Nerf-proofing: Yes I agree and mentioned it above. However put on the scales on the one side a Supercap char limited to a Nyx and on the other an all BS char. Which would you choose? The scales are not even for even time investment.

edit:


You have one guy on the first page who potentially supports the idea. Everyone else has pointed out why this is bad and that the system is more or less fine "as is."

Which is precisely what I say there: "understand it but don't like it", What is it you do not understand.

edit2:


So long as the person with 10 mil in Gunnery has all the skills relevant to firing a 'Geddon's lasers at level 5, you can have 1 billion SP in gunnery and still won't be any better.

Mostly sensible arguments

I disagree that it has been like this for ages and no one complains.

As to your main thrust that actually specializing is currently less rewarded than corsstraining (I do hope you mean RACIAL crosstraining because that is what I am discussing /proposing) then I disagree

What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.