[quote=Pheusia][quote=Crellion][quote=Nnam Pir]The big benefit of cross-training for other race's ships is the extra options. That alone

EDIT For curiosity can we hear from anyone who has say all 4 races recons and Hictors and as to what they think 4 races offer over 2 or 3.. Do you out there who has done it feel rewarded enough?

Yes, I have done this. It gives flexibility and diversity. That is the benefit.

Thank you very much FT Diomedes for your answer. Have you found this versatility very helpful in your long pvp
carrier. Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive? Did the substantial advantages of the fourth race figure prominently on the road to amassing your career kills as they appear on battleclinic?

Were there times when six HACs at your disposal just would not cut it and you needed desperately that last race to be competitive?

I'll answer that question on my own behalf: yes.

When you need a long range DPS ship to keep Falcons off the field, there's no HAC that will come close to the Cerberus. When you need a hgh speed anti-support/heavy tackle/hit-and-run ship, then other HACs are a poor subsitute for the Vagabond. When you need HAC that can use drones, then the Ishtar is the only reasonably choice. When you want to join an AHAC fleet, the Zealot is convincingly superior to the other HACs.

The Recons have distinct enough roles that the advantages of being able to use them all are too obvious to need explaining.

HICs are a little less obvious, but still, you will definitely want to be able to fly both a shield and an armour HIC. The Devoter is significantly better than the Phobos for "big fleet" work due to its resist profile and incredible EHP, while the Phobos is better for lo-sec work. There's not really much to choose between the Onyx and the Broadsword IMO.The Onyx is a little better at providing supplementary DPS, the Broadsword is more agile.


The true advantage I have been able to derive from cross-training rather than specialising is that when the FC announces "Tonight's fleet is a $DOCTRINE fleet" I am always able to fill at least one, usually more, role in the fleet in the ship best suited to it. If the FC wants to try out a concept Gallente Battlecruiser fleet, I can fly that BC. If he wants an all-Ishtar fleet, I can do that. If he's short on Interdictors, I can swap out to whatever spare dictor hull someone has lying around.

(The irony is that I am posting this with a relatively specialised alt; my main - Malcanis - is the omnitasker. But even this semi-specialised alt is busy cross-training right now, and she can fly the very few ships that Malc can't)

Racial cross-training already provides a huge benefit: you can fly ships of other races.

The question also have to be put into context, because no one (or very few) has 200 mill SPs. Therefore:
The question is NOT: "What is the incentive for training the 4th race" but rather
"What is the incentive for training the 4th race INSTEAD of something else"

Let's just repeat this one more time GÇö more benefit than this really isn't needed since it's a huge pay-off in and of itself.

The reason people keep specialising after all these years, even given the massive benefits of cross-training is that specialising lets you become good, fast. That's a completely different benefit that is more valuable in the short run. Cross-training does not do that: it lets you become versatile, slowly. The (drastically) increased value of that versatility over simply being able to get in the fight is what makes it reasonable that it takes so long.

You can get versatile quick, but you give up the benefit that specialisation provides by doing so: you don't become as good.

It's a balance act and a decisions point GÇö each way has its own distinct advantages and none of them need any specific rewards because they are all more than sufficiently rewarding for what you have to do to get them.

Because it adds significant value to what you have already trained.

Let's look at this a different way:



Some players prioritize cross training across classes - from frigate to cruiser to ballteship to capital - to gain the versatility of being able to use different ship sizes. Other players focus more on cross training across races to gain the versatility of the different racial specialities. Many do a sort of compromise, racing to battlecruisers or battleships before starting to cross train to add racial versatility. Eventually if you keep on training you'll do both kinds of cross training to their logical conclusion and be able to fly "everything".

All we're really doing is arguing about the route to the final destination. It's not obvious to me that specialising in cross-training races should get a special bonus that specialising in cross training classes doesn't, any more than going 100 yards north then 100 yards west should lead you to a different destination or take less time than going 100 yards west then 100 yards north.

I think now you are a lot closer to what I mean. Perhaps you have even hit the nail on the head...

Indeed the issue I have is that going further down the different classes corridor confers higher advantages to the player, progressively, than exploring all four rooms in every stage of the corridor.

But it's only an issue for you, because you're literally the only person who thinks it confers higher advantages. Once a character is at battlecruiser 4/T2 medium guns level, then the advantages of spending the next 3M SP on training another frigate 5 + cruiser 5 + small turret 5 + med turret 5 are so much better than spending 3M SP training battleship 5 + large turret 5 that it's almost unbalanced.

I'll readily concede that it's a good idea for a brand new player to get to battlecruisers quickly, purely because they're the optimal ISK making platform if you don't have many SP. After that, I - along with literally everyone else in this thread - am 100% in favour of cross racial specialisation.

Adding significant value does not cut it.

The whole discussion is comparison of the added vvalue form the one with the added value from the other. See my previous post.

Saying 4th race is useful is not enough IMO.

You know either you did not read the whole post or you are just saying "won't hear this lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalal"

Sure it does, since it means you do not only get what you train, but also get more for what you've already trained.

Crellion: It does not. Balance is not about "ok that is good to" but about "is it as good as". < Basic fact you keep missing.

GǪwhich is what I responded to and what you keep on missing: you already get more for this crosstraining than for training something else. I can only venture to guess that your problem lies in your unfamiliarity of the EVE skill system and you inability to separate GÇ£moreGÇ¥ from GÇ£betterGÇ¥. Each has its own set of advantages and costs GÇö deciding between the two is what makes the system work (and be great).

Crellion: Oh I am very familiar with the EvE skill system. Familiar enough to see the problems rather than just about familiar enough to hold on to common prejudice for dear life. Crosstraining after the 3rd race for te same ship classes offers a minimal advantage and is seriously imbalanced against the superior advantage gained for training something else at that point.


And you're the only one thinking that this is what you get. Again: you do not just get what you train, but more for what you've already trained. You get your baseline and added value. You get something that is useful and improve the usefulness of what you already have. If this is not enough for you, nothing ever will be.

[It does not. Balance is not about "ok that is good to" but about "is it as good as". < Basic fact you keep missing.

Oh I am very familiar with the EvE skill system. Familiar enough to see the problems rather than just about familiar enough to hold on to common prejudice for dear life. Crosstraining after the 3rd race for te same ship classes offers a minimal advantage and is seriously imbalanced against the superior advantage gained for training something else at that point.

Nope that: "You get something that is useful and improve the usefulness of what you already have" is what I am asking for. Currently getting a Paladin adds nothing to the usefulness of having a Kronos.

Especially if you allready had Kronos and Vargur and Paladin and then trained on for a Golem you got 0 practical return...

I think in 3 or 4 years you ll see my point...

I think in 3 or 4 years you ll see my point...

Woah, I could've sworn OP finally acknowledged that he was wrong and that this thread could be wrapped up.

You see that's the problem exactly. We reached that point where I said if you all agree it is uneccessary I wont insist and then people take this as a carte blanche to spew more bs... Just look at Tippias post above... I have a 1 page long reply which I can not send because it will feed the troll further.

I think enough has already been posted. Most people I assume can read carefully if they have nothing better to do and see for themselves what the point is who is avoidign it and who is making arguments for arguments sake. I am waaayy out of time to keep this up. The attempt to help people come to terms with an idea that runs contrary to their cemented beliefs demands at the very least honest and to the point dialogue which I do not think I ll have a chance of here.

Regarding the previous post,

Considering he is referring to us all as being so 'cemented' in our ways in a derogatory fashion and is completely unironic, I would say tremendous troll.

The problem is that you refuse by all means, including ridiculous arguments and tounts, what people are addressing since the beginning of your post.

Now, I'm starting to think that you're either a tremendous troll making fun of everyone or just idiot.
How can you possibly not, or refuse to understand that having the 4 fracking races trained is already a huge benefit on it self since there you will always have the best ship for no mater the situation?

What about Bhaalgorns, Vindicators, Machariels, Nightmares punting aside the awesome cruiser and frigate pirate ships lines, isn't this a huge benefit on it self for you knowing the number of guys able to do so?