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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1100
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Tippia wrote:Where's the confusion?
If people are managing to use a webber (a module that in no way inhibits warping) in a way that makes it inhibit warping, then that is indeed the module not working as intended GÇö a bug GÇö and making use of such a bug is pretty much the most basic and fundamental definition of an GÇ£exploitGÇ¥. It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused. It just makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.
* achieve warp speed on the proper vector. Small difference, but speed doesn't imply direction.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:58:00 -
[92] - Quote
It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping. |
Cpt Pugwash
0utLaw. Northern Coalition.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:58:00 -
[93] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:
It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.
It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed.
Haven't tested this myself, but from reading around it would apear that sufficient webbing may infact prevent the cancelling of warp (Ctrl Space) and with a few well placed bumps can prevent warping. Thus making a ship that was seemingly safely within docking range suddenly and unfairly vulnerable.
That being said the text in the original post is about as clear as mud and could be referencing practically anything involviing a web. |
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
109
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
confirming npc-s have been 'exploiting' this for years, immediately ban republic fleet The Order of the Falcon or Hin +¡slenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:01:00 -
[95] - Quote
Ottersmacker wrote:confirming npc-s have been 'exploiting' this for years, immediately ban republic fleet
thems federation navy got me with this too, heard reports caldari navy also been exploiting too.
so long navys, your days are numbered |
Valentyn3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
135
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:It doesn't stop you from warping, thats where you're confused.
It must makes the process take 4 minutes, mainly due to the length of time it takes you to achieve warp speed. GǪand jams you in the warping mode, which GÇö regardless of all other details and what else might happen GÇö is also a bug. Taking advantage of this bug is a text-book example of an exploit. I'm sorry, but there really is no wiggle-room on this one. Everything about it is about activating bugs, aka using exploits. Liang Nuren wrote:The first outlaws all use of webs without scrams/disruptors anywhere against anyone. The second outlaws webs without scrams on a station undock for a freighter/jump freighter that has a noob at the helm and just decided to click "warp" instead of taking the many options available to prevent his demise. Ok, you need to take your rage goggles off and look at both of them again: GÇ£It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them.GÇ¥ This does not in any way outlaw the use of webs without points. It outlaws the use of the broken game mechanic (not detailed in the post) that keeps people from warping. As with pretty much all exploits in the past, they chose not to elaborate on the exact nature of the exploit, because that just invites people to use it and they have no fix out for it yet so it's usually a bad idea to do so. GÇ£We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock.GÇ¥ This is not in any way limited to webbing freighters on the station undock and does, if you calm down for a second, say the exact same thing as the above statement: you are not allowed to make use of the broken game mechanic (now explained) that keeps people from warping. The only difference between the two is that in the second case, and quite contrary to how they usually do this, they provide a description of exactly how the exploit works.
There's no point in trying. No mater how logical the argument, they'll just plug their ears and continue to be butthurt that it will take them just that much more effort to be a **** in a video game. I don't always use hax. But when I do, it's because I'm an NPC.. http://i.imgur.com/PUZou.jpg
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Tonemaster B
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:12:00 -
[97] - Quote
Dude no one really cares that you tell CCP that you think no one understands their message.
This is how I understand the first message,
"Don't be a **** and use exploits or we will ban your ass"
This is how I understand the second message,
"Don't be a **** and use exploits or we will ban your ass" |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:16:00 -
[98] - Quote
Valentyn3 wrote:There's no point in trying. No mater how logical the argument, they'll just plug their ears and continue to be butthurt that it will take them just that much more effort to be a **** in a video game.
I actually don't do the freighters/jump freifhters on the station undock thing. I don't even care about it. I know that to the PVP uninitiated all you can see is the news of the JF kill and the implications of JFs dying while locked out of their ship for minutes at a time.
However, the initial verbiage of the news item outlawed all uses of webs without points (though even this was very vague and ambiguous). When I pointed out that the verbiage of the news item basically outlawed webs outright, CCP changed it to "more accurately reflect internal communication". And I'm fine with the new definition of the exploit - it always annoyed me when I got hammered by it.
Thus: CCP agrees with me - the initial ruling was far too broad. How's that for a "logical argument"?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
227
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:It seems some people are misunderstanding whats going on here, and why it's suddenly an exploit thats been in the game for years...
The problem here is that when done correctly on a ship like a jump freighter... apparently the ship becomes unable to cancel warp with ctrl + space?
I think I might have experienced this myself a few times before, once where it was faction police, and another time when it was another player on a station (I simply relogged quick and docked, that seemed to fix it for me)
This man gets it.
Webbing then bumping will remain a viable tactic after CCP fixes this small bug. Regards,
LCpl. Aiwha-á Senior Recruiter |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 19:34:00 -
[100] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping.
At least you admit it's an exploit.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:35:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping. At least you admit it's an exploit.
Why would I not? I'm too lazy to camp JF systems 24/7. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
This has been happening since 2009 and GMs didn't give a shi t then.
CCP's rule of thumb on classifying exploits: if less than 25 percent of EVE know about it, it's not an exploit.
Good job Garmon. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping. At least you admit it's an exploit. Why would I not? I'm too lazy to camp JF systems 24/7.
Because the rest of your alliance is trying to convince us that it's not an exploit...just ~elite PvP~.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
56
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:40:00 -
[104] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping. At least you admit it's an exploit. Why would I not? I'm too lazy to camp JF systems 24/7. Because the rest of your alliance is trying to convince us that it's not an exploit...just ~elite PvP~.
Apparently Pandemic Legion aren't like Goonswarm and don't receive their opinions from ~mittani~ |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:41:00 -
[105] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:It's not exploiting a bug, it's exploiting ****** game mechanics that CCP introduced to stop you pulsing mwd then warping. At least you admit it's an exploit. Why would I not? I'm too lazy to camp JF systems 24/7. Because the rest of your alliance is trying to convince us that it's not an exploit...just ~elite PvP~. Apparently Pandemic Legion aren't like Goonswarm and don't receive their opinions from ~mittani~
That's ~The Mittani~ to you.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5705
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:However, the initial verbiage of the news item outlawed all uses of webs without points (though even this was very vague and ambiguous). Still no. The initial verbiage outlawed the use of an exploit that involved the use of webs. The details how using a web would cause the exploit to happen were left unmentioned. That is not the same thing as outlawing all uses of webs. Just because people couldn't think for themselves and had to have things spelled out for them doesn't mean that anything has changed in terms of what was outlawed.
The change in wording just made sure even people who couldn't think for themselves understood that exploiting bugs is exploiting. The definition of the exploit is exactly the same. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
495
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:50:00 -
[107] - Quote
Tippia, you really need to change your sig. It should say
Find more rants over at Tippis' Pants.
Cause if you are ranting, you are usually butthurt over something and the butt is located on the upper backside of your lower appendage covering.
Ok that is a real lame excuse to change the your sig, but I keep thinking it says Pants for some reason |
Ghoest
278
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:50:00 -
[108] - Quote
In a vacuum I can understand saying this is a bannable exploit.
But how was using webs to align faster not considered an exploit? Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
4
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:53:00 -
[109] - Quote
This has been petitioned mutliple times, and CCP's answer has allways been "working as intended". It's a method that's been around since I first played in 2006, probably long before that too. The technique of using a Vindicator with tripple webs is new, but the mechanics that allow it are not.
Thousands upon thousands of ships have been lost due to this "bug" to NPC factions, pirates and poeple with bad faction standings undocking from station, only to be webbed, scrammed and killed without being able to cancel warp. If CCP actually intend to start reimbursing the ships lost to this "bug" they won't be able to do anything else for the next few weeks. Not to mention all the capitals unable who were killed after being bumped at high speeds out of POS shields, stations or even eachother; as they were "stuck in warp".
So instead of labeling what until now has been a legit game mechanic an "exploit", why not allow it and let JF pilots learn how to align before warping? Getting mad about it now seems pretty pointless, eve should never be safe and adding a bit of risk to the life of careless freighter pilots is good. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
3247
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:56:00 -
[110] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Tippia, you really need to change your sig. It should say Find more rants over at Tippis' Pants. Cause if you are ranting, you are usually butthurt over something and the butt is located on the upper backside of your lower appendage covering. Ok that is a real lame excuse to change the your sig, but I keep thinking it says Pants for some reason
shut up idiot "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5706
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Posted - 2012.03.20 19:56:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:In a vacuum I can understand saying this is a bannable exploit.
But how was using webs to align faster not considered an exploit? Because it's not causing the code to go off the rails and causing an unrecoverable loss of control over your ship just because, most likely, there's no code to deal with the state of the ship?
Web-slinging a ship means the normal rules apply GÇö you're just wiggling the variables around; web-jamming a ship means there is no longer any rule to apply (presumably because it's missing in the code) GÇö the variables are stuck in an unforeseen state.
Astro Semite wrote:So instead of labeling what until now has been a legit game mechanic an "exploit", why not allow it and let JF pilots learn how to align before warping? Because webs were never intended to jam the code this way, and just because it took a while for the nature of the problem to penetrate CCP's famously thick skulls doesn't mean that the intention was ever anything else. Just apply a point GÇö if you have room for three webs, you have room for one of those. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:However, the initial verbiage of the news item outlawed all uses of webs without points (though even this was very vague and ambiguous). Still no. The initial verbiage outlawed the use of an exploit that involved the use of webs. The details how using a web would cause the exploit to happen were left unmentioned. That is not the same thing as outlawing all uses of webs. Just because people couldn't think for themselves and had to have things spelled out for them doesn't mean that anything has changed in terms of what was outlawed. The change in wording just made sure even people who couldn't think for themselves understood that exploiting bugs is exploiting. The definition of the exploit is exactly the same.
Tippia, you apparently do not understand the details of how using a web causes the exploit to happen. The mechanic (bug/"exploit") doesn't just happen to freighters on stations - the exact same thing happens all over New Eden all the time (albeit at a smaller scale, perhaps limited to ~30-40 seconds). The initial ruling outlawed almost all uses of the web (intentionally or not) - and when I challenged the ruling CCP dramatically narrowed its scope.
Basically: CCP agrees that the initial ruling was too broad. QED - any questions?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
4
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:08:00 -
[113] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Astro Semite wrote:So instead of labeling what until now has been a legit game mechanic an "exploit", why not allow it and let JF pilots learn how to align before warping? Because webs were never intended to jam the code this way, and just because it took a while for the nature of the problem to penetrate CCP's famously thick skulls doesn't mean that the intention was ever anything else. Just apply a point GÇö if you have room for three webs, you have room for one of those.
Webs were never intended to allow ships to warp faster either. CCP have known about this for years, and been perfectly ok with it until now. And the webs don't prevent the ships from warping; they merely increase the time it takes for it to do so. Bumping the ships prevent it from ever reaching that speed, but this is all game mechanics. Being stuck "entering warp" might not have been CCP's intention, but neither are a lot of things. I don't see how they can suddenly say it's a "clear exploit" after years of not only knowing about it, but saying it's as it should be and it's ok for poeple to take advantage of it. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:10:00 -
[114] - Quote
Astro Semite wrote:Being stuck "entering warp" might not have been CCP's intention,
And that is why they are calling it an exploit. All the other wailing and gnashing of teeth is just noise.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Honeyhole
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
0
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:17:00 -
[115] - Quote
The shield-tanked web-only Daredevil fit is solid and produces. Don't even start with this 'PVP ships must have a point' crap.
Also, you have no idea what is happening in their application code so just stop continuing your bushleague arguments based on assumptions.
The point is that this has existed for a long time, and players have made the standard, absurd level of effort to bring possible bugs to the game designers attention and every response has been that the bugged application code that your argument is based around is simply not bugged at all.
Any players using the mechanic before an announcement about it being deemed an exploit are easily protected from action against them because many, many petitions and chat logs between GM's and players over the years can be revived for more than enough proof the show that CCP simply did not take the petitions seriously. That is until a 20 billion isk JF was lost due to it :tinfoil:
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Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
4
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:18:00 -
[116] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Astro Semite wrote:Being stuck "entering warp" might not have been CCP's intention, And that is why they are calling it an exploit. All the other wailing and gnashing of teeth is just noise.
By this logic webbing ships to make them warp faster, suicide ganking miners etc are all exploits.
Never mind all the obvious cheaters making billions, even trillions, of Technetium. After all, CCP said this was a mistake and they never intended to make Tech the bottleneck it now is, and clearly those exploiting this are cheating.
CCP not intending something doesn't make it an exploit. In a sandbox game players will allways do things the developers never intended. The question is wether it's broken or not, and why they are considering what until recently was a well documented and accepted game mechanic an exploit. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5707
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:20:00 -
[117] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tippia, you apparently do not understand the details of how using a web causes the exploit to happen. The mechanic (bug/"exploit") doesn't just happen to freighters on stations - the exact same thing happens all over New Eden all the time (albeit at a smaller scale, perhaps limited to ~30-40 seconds). The initial ruling outlawed almost all uses of the web (intentionally or not) - and when I challenged the ruling CCP dramatically narrowed its scope. GǪexcept that nothing changed between the two except for them explaining what was happening and why. How can you not see this? Now you're also implying things that were never mentioned, such as me making any reference to freighters. CCP merely mention a use that caught their eye (or, more likely, a situation that finally caused someone to properly report it). At no point was the use of web outlawed GÇö the use of unintentional gaps in the coding that caused the ship to go out of control was outlawed. The fact that webs are being used for this is almost incidental, and it's the exploitation of an obvious bug that is GÇö quite correctly being labelled as an exploit.
I'll post this again:
GÇ£It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them.GÇ¥
vs.
GÇ£We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock.GÇ¥
The second one is not narrowed down. They are still disallowing the exact same thing: you cannot use webs to jam ships into an unrecoverable state. The only difference is that in the first post, they weren't explicitly stating what the GÇ£broken game mechanic involving web modulesGÇ¥ consisted of, whereas in the reworded version, they did. They did not disallow the use of webs in any way except for using this (at first unexplained) exploit.
Quote:Basically: CCP agrees that the initial ruling was too broad. GǪso why didn't they narrow it down the second time around? So no, they apparently didn't agree with that.
Astro Semite wrote:By this logic webbing ships to make them warp faster, suicide ganking miners etc are all exploits. No, that's not the same logic.
Again: one is causing the code to go off the rails, making the ship unresponsive because it has entered an undefined state of apparently-warping-but-not-really-doing-so; the other is causing the standard rules to work exactly the same way as always, only with different parameters. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Plyn
Random Jedi Industries KRYSIS.
46
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:22:00 -
[118] - Quote
Oh god, the pain, the PAIN!!!!
Just change warp cancelling to be possible even if the ship is going faster than its top speed.
This keeps webs useful for killing people in normal circumstances but removes the stunlock from undocking ships. Come2Nullsec |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
Tippia wrote: GÇ£It has come to our attention that some players are making use of a broken game mechanic involving web modules preventing people from warping, for the purpose of killing them.GÇ¥
vs.
GÇ£We've become aware of an exploit that is being abused by players to catch jump freighters in low-sec in order to kill them. By webbing a ship that has initiated warp, the victim will be rendered unable to cancel the warp in order to dock.GÇ¥
You are truly delusional if you honestly believe these say the same thing. The simple fact of the matter is that the second statement covers a very tiny subset of the situations the first one does. Its all those situations that had me concerned.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tonemaster B
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:27:00 -
[120] - Quote
There must have been literally hundreds of people writing to CCP about this. But your on here taking credit like your all awesome or something. |
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