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Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
4
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:30:00 -
[121] - Quote
Plyn wrote:Oh god, the pain, the PAIN!!!!
Just change warp cancelling to be possible even if the ship is going faster than its top speed.
This keeps webs useful for killing people in normal circumstances but removes the stunlock from undocking ships.
Or keep things as they have allways been and just make JF pilots learn how to align before pressing warp.
If you're too lazy or retarted to make that one little click before pressing warp, you deserve to die helpless and dead in the water to the Vindicator camping station. |
Tonemaster B
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:31:00 -
[122] - Quote
Astro Semite wrote:
The question is wether it's broken or not,
What part of this is clearly a god damn exploit from the god damn lead game desinger dont you understand.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5708
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:37:00 -
[123] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:You are truly delusional if you honestly believe these say the same thing. The simple fact of the matter is that the second statement covers a very tiny subset of the situations the first one does. Its all those situations that had me concerned. All those other situations where you're using a broken mechanic involving webs to prevent people from warping would also be exploits, you knowGǪ So you should be concerned if you're still using those (or, better yet, report them as well to CCP, now that they've got web exploits high on the agenda).
No. The two are not covering different things. They are merely not providing all the details of the exploit that has been outlawed in the first version. One more time: in both cases, they are outlawing the use of a broken game mechanic involving webs. They are not allowing the use of this bug for non-freighter ships in the second version; they are not allowing the use of this bug outside of lowsec; the second version is not narrowed-down GÇö it's just explaining how the bug is being used and why it works. What they are saying is quite simply GÇ£you cannot use webs to make ships unable to cancel warpGÇ¥, that is all GÇö this is the GÇ£broken mechanic involving websGÇ¥ hinted at in the first version.
Also, they were not outlawing the use of webs in the first version GÇö just the exploitation of bugs, which should come as no surprise.
Again: take off the rage glasses, calm down, and read the two side by side. The differences are nil aside from the quite unconventional step of explaining how to perform the exploit they're outlawing and an explanation of how it came to their attention. Just because they didn't include all the details in the first version does not mean that the scope of what's being outlawed has changed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
5
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:40:00 -
[124] - Quote
Tonemaster B wrote:Astro Semite wrote:
The question is wether it's broken or not,
What part of this is clearly a god damn exploit from the god damn lead game desinger dont you understand.
The part where they've known about it and said it's fine for years.
The part where they previously stated it's within the game mechanics.
The part where thousands of ships have been killed by players through it's use, and many times more killed by NPC and faction police as a result of it.
The part where it's fine until a few Jump Freighters die and someone makes an article on Evenews complaining about it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5708
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:44:00 -
[125] - Quote
Astro Semite wrote:The part where they've known about it and said it's fine for years.
The part where they previously stated it's within the game mechanics. GǪneither of which matters because you're assuming that they've fully understood what the problem was this whole time. That's a particularly dangerous assumption to make in relation to CCP, as history has shown (cf. the infinitracking magnetar exploit). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1947
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:48:00 -
[126] - Quote
Astro Semite wrote:The question is wether it's broken or not, and why they are considering what until recently was a well documented and accepted game mechanic an exploit.
The question has been answered by the lead GM. You are also confusing two different mechanics: the webbing of a JF to make it warp faster and the webbing of a freighter on a station undock in such a way that it's unable to cancel warp and redock. The latter is the exploit. All the whining about ganking miners, tech moons, etc is just noise.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
57
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:49:00 -
[127] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Astro Semite wrote:The part where they've known about it and said it's fine for years.
The part where they previously stated it's within the game mechanics. GǪneither of which matters because you're assuming that they've fully understood what the problem was this whole time. That's a particularly dangerous assumption to make in relation to CCP, as history has shown (cf. the infinitracking magnetar exploit).
It's been reported to GMs kind of a lot of times, the problem is GMs have a notoriously poor understanding of game mechanics.
You'd hope that in 4 years they'd have grasped what people were reporting to them though.
It took an extra bunch of people figuring it out and an evenews24 article before they could grasp it though.
Maybe if GMs dont understand they should raise it to someone that does, or ask for clarification before saying it is explicitly NOT an exploit. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:55:00 -
[128] - Quote
Ladies and gentlemen, this is a "Tippia". You will note the stubborn refusal to admit error and tenacious clinging to dogmatic views. Once it stands on a topic, it is virtually unmovable and is willing to rationalize away any and all discrepancies. This creature is quite prolific in its natural habitat of the Eve Online forums, but is rarely seen in the Eve Online game itself.
CCP has already stated the scope of the exploit, and nobody is going to get banned over webs on their Rapier or Ashimmu. Which was a very, very, very real possibility with the first rendition.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 20:56:00 -
[129] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Astro Semite wrote:The part where they've known about it and said it's fine for years.
The part where they previously stated it's within the game mechanics. GǪneither of which matters because you're assuming that they've fully understood what the problem was this whole time. That's a particularly dangerous assumption to make in relation to CCP, as history has shown (cf. the infinitracking magnetar exploit).
Assuming that they fully understood what they were declaring an exploit is also a dangerous assumption to make in relation to :CCP:.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 20:56:00 -
[130] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Astro Semite wrote:The part where they've known about it and said it's fine for years.
The part where they previously stated it's within the game mechanics. GǪneither of which matters because you're assuming that they've fully understood what the problem was this whole time. That's a particularly dangerous assumption to make in relation to CCP, as history has shown (cf. the infinitracking magnetar exploit).
This has been around for a lot longer than the infinitracking exploit, and unlike that situation, this is a matter of core game mechanics that has been tried and tested by god-knows how many people. And even if GMs don't play the game themselves, how this works has been explained in detail through countless previous petitions. For them to claim not to know about it when such a large part of the playerbase did would just be stupid. Poeple have petitioned losses with detailed explanations of how they lost their ships to this "bug/mechanic", and have allways been told it works as intended.
The only thing that's new here, and that CCP didn't think of, is how to make use of the Vindicator hull to kill jumpfreighters. You don't even need to use webs, the same effect can be achieved with some good bumping, or even the freighter bumping off station structure as it undocks.
Instead of crying foul CCP should just acknowledge this as a legit tactic and let dumb jumpfreighters die if they can't manage to align before warping. |
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Jada Maroo
Mysterium Astrometrics Bringers of Death.
606
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:01:00 -
[131] - Quote
The amount of shucking and jiving in this thread to attempt to justify an obvious exploit that locks out player controls in a way that's clearly not intended is ******* hilarious. This is like Baghdad Bob stuff. |
Ghoest
278
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:01:00 -
[132] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ghoest wrote:In a vacuum I can understand saying this is a bannable exploit.
But how was using webs to align faster not considered an exploit? Because it's not causing the code to go off the rails and causing an unrecoverable loss of control over your ship just because, most likely, there's no code to deal with the state of the ship? Web-slinging a ship means the normal rules apply GÇö you're just wiggling the variables around; web-jamming a ship means there is no longer any rule to apply (presumably because it's missing in the code) GÇö the variables are stuck in an unforeseen state.
You are rationalizing to justify a popular exploit.
In both cases people are utilizing unintended side effect of webs.
Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5710
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:25:00 -
[133] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, this is a "Tippia". You will note the stubborn refusal to admit error and tenacious clinging to dogmatic views. Maybe if you provided something resembling a counter-argument, responding to the points I make rather than just dogmatically clinging to god knows what (because you refuse to actually explain yourself), stomp your feet, and throw insults aroundGǪ?
Quote:CCP has already stated the scope of the exploit, and nobody is going to get banned over webs on their Rapier or Ashimmu. Which was a very, very, very real possibility with the first rendition. GǪexcept that the scope didn't change, so the ship involved is of no relevance.
Astro Semite wrote:This has been around for a lot longer than the infinitracking exploit, and unlike that situation, this is a matter of core game mechanics that has been tried and tested by god-knows how many people. Doesn't matter. The infinitracking exploit was also GǣallowedGǥ and GǣknownGǣ and Gǣtried and testedGǥ until someone pointed out the actual issue and CCP woke up and said GǣWait, what?! Is that's what's happening? NonononoGǪ that's not what we meant at all.Gǥ
Quote:The only thing that's new here, and that CCP didn't think of, is how to make use of the Vindicator hull to kill jumpfreighters. You don't even need to use webs, the same effect can be achieved with some good bumping, or even the freighter bumping off station structure as it undocks. GǪand that is not an exploit because you're not causing the game to get stuck on a piece of missing code and fail to handle a situation the devs didn't think of. The exploit has nothing to do with vindis or JFs GÇö they're just how they found out about it GÇö and everything to do with webs having unintended and obviously bugged effects. Bugs that are being exploited. Thus, it is labelled an exploit.
Now, I can fully understand the frustration and/or irritation with this sudden wake-up from CCP's side (or, perhaps more likely, their inability to understand the issue in the first (and second (and third)) place), but that doesn't change the fact that this is as obvious an exploit as they come. What I can't understand is people being angry over CCP fixing bugs and cracking down on exploits.
Ghoest wrote:You are rationalizing to justify a popular exploit.
In both cases people are utilizing unintended side effect of webs. GǪexcept that one is working well within the system by adjusting the parameters using tools that are meant to do just that, and the other is working because you cause the ship to enter a state that isn't handled by any available code, in turn causing it to become unresponsive. The former isn't using any kind of bug as far as I can tell; the latter quite clearly is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Purplewine
Incestuous Cult of Paranoid Swamp People
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:27:00 -
[134] - Quote
They found about it years ago, it only took a person with certain affiliation losing a 20b jump freighter to do something about it. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 21:36:00 -
[135] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, this is a "Tippia". You will note the stubborn refusal to admit error and tenacious clinging to dogmatic views. Maybe if you provided something resembling a counter-argument, responding to the points I make rather than just dogmatically clinging to god knows what (because you refuse to actually explain yourself), stomp your feet, and throw insults aroundGǪ?
Its very simple: according to you, using a rapier is a bannable offense.
-Liang
Ed: Your petition has been submitted, the petition tracking id is 2813356. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ghoest
278
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:42:00 -
[136] - Quote
This slappy fight would be more fun if they both had their old avatars. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1023
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:42:00 -
[137] - Quote
Bubanni wrote: The problem here is that when done correctly on a ship like a jump freighter... apparently the ship becomes unable to cancel warp with ctrl + space?
and therein lies the rub
**** poor game management to blame a working mechanic to cover up the fact that canceling warp should not be dependent on ANY external factors such as speed.
CCP, try fixing the real problem here instead of calling a tactic your own NPCs use an exploit because you can't fix your broken code
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1101
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Posted - 2012.03.20 21:47:00 -
[138] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:This slappy fight would be more fun if they both had their old avatars.
My avatar looks better - and it did then too. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5711
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 21:56:00 -
[139] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Its very simple: according to you, using a rapier is a bannable offense. Nope. According to me (and CCP), making ships unresponsive by using webs is an exploit GÇö the use of exploits may result in a ban.
Want to keep a ship from warping off? Apply a point. You should do that before the webs come on anywayGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1102
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Posted - 2012.03.20 22:06:00 -
[140] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Its very simple: according to you, using a rapier is a bannable offense. Nope. According to me (and CCP), making ships unresponsive by using webs is an exploit GÇö the use of exploits may result in a ban. Want to keep a ship from warping off? Apply a point. You should do that before the webs come on anywayGǪ
A Rapier's web range far exceeds its point range, and it is not realistic to assume that it will be able to apply a point to something it webs. In fact, one of a Rapier's primary responsibilities is to web something down so that you can put a point on it. See earlier in the thread for commentary about how people have repeatedly lost ships this way. Using your definition, using a Rapier is an exploit in almost all usual situations. The severity differs - merely up to ~30 seconds usually... but the effect is the same.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
179
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:10:00 -
[141] - Quote
I'm sorry, but if this is NOT new game behaviour and people have been petitioning this for years, and yet suddenly it's an exploit because it cost a Goon a bucket of ISK, isn't this something that the Internal Affairs department should look at?
Also, Liang, please stop enabling Tippia. She's just running point guard for the Goons like she always does, and her "pulling a Tippia" is just a way to make this about her instead of what it should be, which is paying customers questioning why these decisions always go in favour of the Goons.
It's always just been good sport before, but now it's really starting to bother me. |
Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:16:00 -
[142] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Astro Semite wrote:This has been around for a lot longer than the infinitracking exploit, and unlike that situation, this is a matter of core game mechanics that has been tried and tested by god-knows how many people. Doesn't matter. The infinitracking exploit was also GǣallowedGǥ and GǣknownGǣ and Gǣtried and testedGǥ until someone pointed out the actual issue and CCP woke up and said GǣWait, what?! Is that's what's happening? NonononoGǪ that's not what we meant at all.Gǥ
The infinite tracking exploit was an obscure exploit used by a single corporation in wormhole space that could only be reproduced in a handfull of systems. This, however, is about a core mechanic that's been used for years by numerous player groups, that's been well documented and tested by hundreds, if not thousands of players over the years. It's something the faction police does every days to unfortunate players, it's something that has happened in PvP every single day for goddamn years.
Claiming CCP didn't know exactly what was going on is goddamn retarted, it's been explained to them in detail over and over again by people frustrated over losing their ships to faction police, by people wanting to make sure their tactics are legit and it's something every good PvP'er knows how to use to his advantage. And CCP has allways said it's fine and within the game mechanics, up untli Garmon ganked a jumpfreighter and a Evenews24 article whining was written.
Hell, groups like Moar Tears have killed a ton jumpfreighters with this exact tactic and every time a loss has been petitioned they've been told that's how the game work and "tough luck". If Grimmi doesn't know about this not only does he lack anything beyond the most basic understand of warp mechanics, he clearly hasn't been paying atention whatsoever for the last few years. So he should probably talk to some of the GMs who have dealt with these mechanics previously before he goes and declares it an "obvious exploit".
Tippia wrote:Quote:The only thing that's new here, and that CCP didn't think of, is how to make use of the Vindicator hull to kill jumpfreighters. You don't even need to use webs, the same effect can be achieved with some good bumping, or even the freighter bumping off station structure as it undocks. GǪand that is not an exploit because you're not causing the game to get stuck on a piece of missing code and fail to handle a situation the devs didn't think of. The exploit has nothing to do with vindis or JFs GÇö they're just how they found out about it GÇö and everything to do with webs having unintended and obviously bugged effects. Bugs that are being exploited. Thus, it is labelled an exploit. Now, I can fully understand the frustration and/or irritation with this sudden wake-up from CCP's side (or, perhaps more likely, their inability to understand the issue in the first (and second (and third)) place), but that doesn't change the fact that this is as obvious an exploit as they come. What I can't understand is people being angry over CCP fixing bugs and cracking down on exploits.
Up until yesterday it was a well known game mechanic no one had any issues with. CCP said that's how it's supposed to work, and players adapted to their rules. if they feel it needs to be changed then fine, they can change it so you'll allways be able ot cancell warp no matter what. But call it what it is; a change in game mechanics. The warp mechanics might be poorly designed, but this doesn't mean taking advantage of this is cheating; it's knowing how the game works and using that to your advantage. |
Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
52
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
My take on this is that the bug is:
"You can't cancel warp"
The fact that normal game mechanics cause it, it irrelevant, it is a bug and it is being exploited. When it's fixed, you can warp freighters at stations to your hearts content.
Nuff said. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
3249
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:23:00 -
[144] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:I'm sorry, but if this is NOT new game behaviour and people have been petitioning this for years, and yet suddenly it's an exploit because it cost a Goon a bucket of ISK, isn't this something that the Internal Affairs department should look at?
Also, Liang, please stop enabling Tippia. She's just running point guard for the Goons like she always does, and her "pulling a Tippia" is just a way to make this about her instead of what it should be, which is paying customers questioning why these decisions always go in favour of the Goons.
It's always just been good sport before, but now it's really starting to bother me.
goonswarm online whatup "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Shobon Welp
Band of Brothers
21
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:28:00 -
[145] - Quote
1) The function of a stasis webifier is to slow down a target ship.
2) The function of a stasis webifier is NOT to double up as a warp scrambler and prevent a ship from warping.
3) If a stasis webifier is preventing a ship from warping, and preventing the pilot of the target ship from cancelling their warp, that is an unintended effect. A bug, if you will.
4) If certain individuals are deliberately recreating the circumstances where that bug occurs, then that is an exploit. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
463
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:28:00 -
[146] - Quote
Andski wrote:
goonswarm online whatup
To be fair over the past 5 months Goonswarm has transformed itself into the biggest crybabies in game. The second something doesn't go their way, 7000 members take to the petitions and forums to ~right the wrongs of eveonline~.
Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~
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Shobon Welp
Band of Brothers
21
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Posted - 2012.03.20 22:29:00 -
[147] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Andski wrote:
goonswarm online whatup
To be fair over the past 5 months Goonswarm has transformed itself into the biggest crybabies in game. The second something doesn't go their way, 7000 members take to the petitions and forums to ~right the wrongs of eveonline~. Of course if you're asked to police your own people for botting, that's a crusade too far~
so tremendously bitter and angry |
Astro Semite
54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:32:00 -
[148] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:My take on this is that the bug is:
"You can't cancel warp"
The fact that normal game mechanics cause it, it irrelevant, it is a bug and it is being exploited. When it's fixed, you can warp freighters at stations to your hearts content.
Nuff said.
You're not supposed to be able to cancel warp ocne your speed is high enough. That's why CCP made it so you can't. It's how the game was designed, players simply took advantage of this, as they do all other quirks of the game mechanics. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1102
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Posted - 2012.03.20 22:33:00 -
[149] - Quote
This bug has been fixed on internal servers and is awaiting testing and QA. -CCP Explorer
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
5712
|
Posted - 2012.03.20 22:34:00 -
[150] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote:IAlso, Liang, please stop enabling Tippia. She's just running point guard for the Goons like she always does, and her "pulling a Tippia" is just a way to make this about her instead of what it should be, which is paying customers questioning why these decisions always go in favour of the Goons. Wow. I think someone has pulled a switch on you and given you a tungsten hat instead GÇö it will have the exact opposite effect. It was probably some goon.
A few things: Just because the goons happen to want to play (roughly) the same game as I do doesn't mean I'm GÇ£running point guardGÇ¥ for them. I would be far more in agreement with Mittens' policies if that were the case. What you're seeing is just me thinking it's silly that the goons are the a priori root of all evil, even when they have nothing to do with what's happening (granted, their willingness to take responsibility for anything that riles people up doesn't exactly help).
It's not about me GÇö it's about people being upset about an obvious exploit being labelled as such. How this suddenly turned into yet another goon thread (long after I joined the thread) when it was originally about a bug being properly identified as such is quite beyond meGǪ
GǪbut even so, if you actually want a bit of deflection of the topic: are you sure that's the actual issue? Shouldn't it rather be the apparent ignorance of the GMs (and/or QA) about game mechanics and well-known issues and how this causes them to flip-flop like this before finally understanding the problem people are asking about? Yes, if you do think that an undue of GM action is going the goons' way, that's probably something IA should look at, but wouldn't that rather be a larger issue than what's being discussed here?
Also, it's GÇ£heGÇ¥.
Liang: fair enough, but you still have to agree that it's not even remotely plausible as an intended mechanic that it locks up ships and that using this unintentional behaviour to lock down ships is very obviously the exploitation of a bug. Until they put in the required code to handle the exceptional situation (and again: I'll willingly and fully throw my weight behind any kind of GÇ£wtf, why didn't you fix it soonerGÇ¥ movement), just bring a Lachesis along GÇö they need to get out more often anyway. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Find more rants over at Tippis' Rants. |
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